New Raga?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 17 Jun 2006, 00:20

Did I hear ennaga manasu?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jun 2006, 00:35

sujiram,

No. This is my (faint) recollection of an ambujam krishna composition "tAlATTu pADum endan madura gAnam kETTu" (a lullaby for Sri Krishna) - i heard it on a maharajapuram santanam CD long time back and always liked it.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jun 2006, 01:52

Good work Arun..I can see the painstaking work that has gone into it.

The oscillatory gamakas came out pretty good. In a couple of places I thought the path through which the swaras transitioned did sound a bit different. It may be the MIDI pitchbend artifact as well.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 17 Jun 2006, 01:57

Arun K: Does your father's name start with an N? If so please email me. Thanks.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jun 2006, 03:00

vk - yes. i wasnt too happy with some parts - particularly the tail-end. But then i am not sure if i got things actually right even in places i thought i did

. I actually dont "know" any krithis in nilambari - still early in the cm learning process.

Lakshman - no. My dad's name does not begin with an N.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jun 2006, 03:58

Vk
Arun's approach has very good potentials for CM! Of course artistes can experiment with veena, violin and venu. Using the potential (visual) is fascinating indeed! The eyes can see what the ears cant hear! But you will hear after seeing. Those subtle delicate gamakams which we love so much with Mali and LGJ can be modelled using his software (when it is (and he is) ready! The modelling requires very good knowledge of CM as well. I entreat all CM enthusiasts to pitchin with their knowhow for the greaterr glory of CM! Note this is miles above using pitchbend and vibrato using the keyboarding!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Nov 2007, 23:50

The more I ponder over VK's qudrant concept the more I get fascinated. I believe it has the scope for a major extension of CM preserving the meLa kartha concept but permitting the excursions into the quadrants. Tentatively I formulated a new ragam using the principles which I am calling AruNAravaM in honour of our dear net guru Arun. Just to give you the feel I am also offering a tentative omposition in the Thiruppugazh style since I have not worked out the gamaka patterns yet.

Raga: AruNAravam TALA: Adi, Janya of 28th meLam

Aro: s d2` r2 g3 p R2 S
Avaro: S R2 p g3 r2 d2` s
( note d2` is the mantra Chatushruti dhaivatam and R2 is the taara chatushruti dhaivatam )

Chandam
tanatAna tAna tAnananA
tanana tanana tana tana tana -- tAnanA

LYRIC

nilayAthu vAnum bhUmiyumE
aranai manadil shiva shiva ena -- thEDuvIr

bhavamAyai nALum chURiDumE
dinamum piNikaL maDa maDa ena -- vADumE

tholayAtha pApam chUzhinumE
avanai paNiyin SaDa SaDa ena -- ODumE

viDayERi nADum nAthanuDan
kavalai thuRanthu hara hara ena -- pADuvIr

Here is the computerized audio
http://www.mediafire.com/?bpmxsn0jpfp

Do note that singing the raga should not be a problem since the vakra excurisons d`r2 has straight sa-ma harmonic relation as also p R2 which has sa-pa relation. Any body game to try the aalaapna? And to concretize a gamaka pattern?

Pl discuss....

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Nov 2007, 00:43

Nice Attempt CML. I could follow along the lyrics to your computer generated melody. I tried to play it and I keep falling into the prayogas of Mohanam and also the Mohana gamakams. But I think by placing emphasis on the non-mohanam sequences, a different personality and identify can be developed. S R p g p R S has some uniqueness to it. I will let other comment. When I hit upon other unique sounding prayogas, I will post.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 09 Nov 2007, 00:49

cml,

Not to underestimate your effort, but this will not stand the test of time. The phrases are definitely a part of a very ancient rAga, known over the ages as dombarkiya and rEgupti and ...........................................................................................................mOhana, of course!

Not that there are no such rAgas - with inherent vakratva - HMBs pashupatipriya comes to mind. But, I am sure it takes such a creative genius to create one such , IMHO.

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Nov 2007, 02:00

cml,

I am honored.

But I am not a fan of ragas with multiple wide jumps - particularly those that force you to do those. I also cannot relate to the quadrant idea that much. So I am sorry that I am not able to contribute anything. While there is some delineation at the boundaries - I believe it is mainly because of the nature of sa-pa (i.e. you use them as "full-stops" and "commas").

But I think the raga contour is not significantly determined by the areas within those quadrants. The melodic nature of the raga is more of a continuum across its entire usable range with significant curves all along, even across quadrant boundaries. Also, the quadrant idea seems even less significant for pentatonic ragas.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Nov 2007, 02:38

ramakriya
I would appreciate more info as far as you know of such ragas. I am quite aware of excursions (without vakratva) into the mantra sthayi (classic example nadanamkriys etc.,); but then have not heard of one spanning from taara to mantra with vakratva. If thye were there why did they die out? with the harmonic relationship it is not dificult to sing them! The sharp sqeal which is not nonmusical gives the element of surprise. The symmetrical structure of the sro/avaro gives freedom of elaboration during the aalaapana! I played a few phrases on the keyboard and they were quite pleasant. A good gamaka structure will elevate them to a usable raga. On the computer I tried morphing the tune to other meLas and thye sounded quite exotic! Most definitely such ragas (unless Illayaja has not used it yet) have a strong movie potential.

Arun

I can understand your pessimism. But then all innovations do start as failures indeed

VK

Thanks to you for stimulating my thinking. Perhaps we are still a century behind

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 09 Nov 2007, 02:56

CML,
I am still trying to understand the melody of your attempt. Now you have given me another scale to work on.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 09 Nov 2007, 03:07

cml.

when I said "the phrases are part of an ancient rAga" I meant they are part of mOhana

Dombakriya, and rEgupti are the ancient names of this rAga. In other words, these rAgas evolved into current day mOhana and have not dies out. Sure, I can't tell if they had this exact vakratva. But it does not look out of place to have this vakratva in mOhana at all. That's what I meant.

HMB took the well known shuddha sAvEri, s r2 m1 p d2 s - s d2 p m1 r2 s - and created the new scale ( s r2 m1 p m1 d2 S - S d2 p m1 r2 m1 s and called it paSupatipriya. You can see none of the vakra sancharas are not a no-no in shuddha sAvEri. So then how did he create a new identity for the rAga ( note that I say rAga, not scale?). He composed several kritis adhering to this and gave life to this scale which otherwise would have been just jumping around in shuddha sAvEri. That's why I said it takes a genius to create one such.

But I do agree that even geniuses should have started off somewhere, may be even with failures!

-Ramakriya

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Nov 2007, 03:15

Reduce the jump, still be in four quadrants, have 5 swaras and retain symmetry... how about this.

Aro: s r2 m1 d2 R S

Ava: s d m r n2' s

Not sure if this scale will have any melodic individuality but then this is the technical section

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Nov 2007, 03:20

Regarding pasupatipriya vs. s.saveri:
I think here the "trick" is by using vakra - you introduce transitions that are "not that common" in s.saveri to be mandatory/very-common in pasupatipriya. I am not sure if m1-d2 is common in s.saveri. I would venture that raga laksya may generally disallow it (?) - as it seems to have a completely different feel. The same goes to m1-s. Would skipping ri while descending from ma that prudent in s.saveri? I would guess even if used it may be "rare" or at best "used judiciously". While in pasupatipriya it would be required. So IMO it is not that pasupatipriya is a "subset" of s.saveri. It could be something while is a mathematical sub-set of s.saveri scale, the patterns are something which would not "be advisable" in s.saveri. That would help it establish a clear melodic identity with enough separation from s.saveri.

But this does point to a new technique too of creating ragas from structure of existing ones, but having the result have enough of its own melodic identity

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Nov 2007, 03:30

vasanthakokilam wrote:Reduce the jump, still be in four quadrants, have 5 swaras and retain symmetry... how about this.

Aro: s r2 m1 d R S

Ava: s d m r n2' s

Not sure if this scale will have any melodic individuality but then this is the technical section

If a scale has s-r2-m1-d2-S and has r2 in its arOhana, then m1-d2-R-S would naturally be part of it

So what we really achieve by the vakra is a further restriction on such a scale by disallowing m1-d2-S.

The same applies to n2. The melodies based on your proposed scale may already exist as part of the following:

s r2 m1 d2 n2 S
s n2 d2 m1 r2 S
(supposedly nAdavalli: http://www.geocities.com/promiserani2/ragasn.html)

Melodies of this above scale would "naturally" (i.e. owing to ni-ri, and da-ri being harmonically friendly) include r-n`-s, s-d`-r-s (or d-R-S) etc. In other words, the "characteristic" vakra prayogas of the new raga, may be part of this raga.

Of course this is just a guess

- I dont know if I am right.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Nov 2007, 04:11

Thanks Arun for those observations. That Naadavalli scale sounds good, too bad there are no songs, not even film songs according to that site.

This vakra scale would then be Naadavalli Restricted. May be that is what the world is waiting for

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 09 Nov 2007, 04:21

vasanthakokilam wrote:Thanks Arun for those observations. That Naadavalli scale sounds good, too bad there are no songs, not even film songs according to that site.

This vakra scale would then be Naadavalli Restricted. May be that is what the world is waiting for

There is a quite well known rAga called gOrakh kalyAn, very similar to the nAgavalli scale given by Arun, in hindUstAni scheme.

s r2 m1 d2 n2 d2 s
s n2 d2 m1 r2 m1, m1 r2 `n2 `d2 s

Some schools, however, employ alpa panchama in Gorakh kalyAn.

You can listen to one rendition here:

http://sarangi.info/2007/07/15/rangi-kh ... kh-kalyan/

More clips, and info about gOrakh kalyAn on Rajan Parrkar's site:

Pandit Ramashreya Jha speaks about this rAga:
http://www.sawf.org/audio/narayani/jha_ ... nspeak.ram

More details here:

http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit09052005/musicarts.asp

-Ramakriya

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Nov 2007, 08:49

Thanks Ramakriya! But I refuse to accept that the appliication of the quadrant principle is closed in CM.
OK folks!

Here is a MIDI formulation of AruNaravam applied to a famous movie song popular over 55 yrs ago. I have used pitchbend to soften and accentuate the notes. It is still very crude due to the limitations of the western instruments (it is a MIDI bagpipe

here is the audio
http://www.mediafire.com/?dnh9k9mrklj

I expect arasi to guess the song right away. If she does not then I confess defeat for my poor memory and execution

Suji

Do try your best. The real melody is in your hands!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Nov 2007, 11:47

CML,
Just heard ArunAravam. I like it. Yes, sounds like dombakriya (I am now learning to call rAgAs by their 'other' names ending with kriya

I also hear traces of VK dhvani here.
Of course, I recognize the song, but bagpipes? Could you play it with a sweeter sound? Bagpipe sounds right only to play BAGPIPES, a mon avis!
Bhanumati's beautiful voice can be represented by a sweeter sounding instrument, please.

Film: Gemini's apUrva sahOdarargaL. Bhanumati sings: ODakkArA, ODakkArA, ODattil ETRic celvAi, A...ODattil ETRic celvAi!
IDillAp poruL taruvAyO? (This is M.K.Radha bellowing, not bagpiping in)
Bhanumati: ennaiyE nan taruvEnE!
He: nIril nam nizhalE
She: pArum adan ezhilE (narcissism ensemble)
Together: ODattil ERiyE pOvOm, inba ODattil ERiyE pOvOM!

Bagpipes, tartan, Edinburgh and Aberdeen, but not for Bhanumati's voice...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Nov 2007, 19:46

Thanks Arasi
I knew you will not miss it. I wonder whether you also detected the subtle mohanam ovetones (I would rather call the spade a spade:) which I detected for the first time! I could not use other MIDI instruments since they all sound much worse including the MIDI violin due to the effusive shooting nature of AruNAravam

I will continue to experiment!

I think in spite of the shades of mohanam the raga has a distinct personality due to its quadrant structure. One should only hear gAnakkuyil Bhanumati on this song to realize the melody. Also MK Rada effectively takes care of the excursion into the mantra sthaayi! Unfortunately I do not have the audio though I could sing it which will never capture the essence

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Nov 2007, 20:05

Arun/ramakriya
could you confirm whether r g p R S S R p g r s d` r g g r d` s (though legall) are used in Mohanam ?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Nov 2007, 21:02

cmlover,

(all my guesses - I am not sure how educated they are)
I think in general no. I say this because "in general" in cm melodies:
1. Upward transitions of very wide intervals like sa-pa type while they do happen (e.g. s-p, d2-g3, ) are not "too common". They are even less common downward (non-existent??) So your p-R, R-p would be less common in cm.
2. For downward transitions, even those of the smaller sa-ma interval are not that common (unless raga structure dictates like in kuntalavarali). So your r-d` would be that. Note that s-ma transitions upwards are quite common (s-m1, r2-p, g2-d1, m1-n2, p-S, g2-d1, g3-d2, d2-R2 etc.)
3. When such transitions do occur, it is more common for the succeeding transition would be a "step back" i.e. in the opposite direction to the transition to the next swara. So a s-m-g (or s-m-r depending on raga structure) would be more common than s-m-p. Your last one is -d`-r-g and after a wide d`-r, continues in that direction to ga. But in mOhanam (or cm ragas with d`, r and s) d`-r-s would be more common. After a wide jump to ri from below, it would be more common to go back below i.e. to sa.

So in general no none of these would be in mOhanam but the reason being the type of transitions employed here have not been used in cm. CM in general thrives on patterns with a lot of neigbouring notes. In general if you take % of type a single swara is either followed/succeeded by the neighbouring swara (as per raga structure), then in CM this is extremely high. I think this results in "smaller transitions" allowing for gamakas to make even those smoother and thus result in a continuity of melody. That is why I said ragas with wide jumps would be a tough inclusion in CM.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Nov 2007, 21:18

Thanks Arun! That is the logic that I wanted to hear. While steep ascents or drops are tolerated in HM and definitely in WM, they are not 'very pleasant' in CM aince they kill the scope for gamakams. In fact gamakams disappear when the notes are too close (vivAditva) or too far apart (dUratva ?). They are quite effective in FM to convey strong emotions! They however are not necessarily non-melodic as long as harmonicity is preserved. A judicious use of such innovations will open new scenarios in the CM context!

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 09 Nov 2007, 21:57

arunk wrote:cmlover,

2. For downward transitions, even those of the smaller sa-ma interval are not that common (unless raga structure dictates like in kuntalavarali). So your r-d` would be that. Note that s-ma transitions upwards are quite common (s-m1, r2-p, g2-d1, m1-n2, p-S, g2-d1, g3-d2, d2-R2 etc.)

Arun

Just wanted to chime in.

In case of mOhana, r p is quite common. But p r is not, because it immediately suggests kalyANi.

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Nov 2007, 22:11

ramakriya wrote:In case of mOhana, r p is quite common. But p r is not, because it immediately suggests kalyANi.

How so? Maybe I am not doing it right: but I just sing: s r~ g p- r~ p g da (~ => typical mohanam ri gamaka), it seems fine. But then that was to me

cml - In any case this would be a correction to my post. Downward transitions of sa-ma type, like pa-ri can indeed occur - perhaps more often than I may have led.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Nov 2007, 23:56

Downward transitions of sa-ma type, like pa-ri can indeed occur - perhaps more often than I may have led.

I guess you meant Sa-pa transiitions which is precisely pa-ri in mohanam. But Ramakriya claims it does not due to confusion with Kalyani. I am getting mixed signals here!

I dont see ri-pa in the varNam but maybe elsewhere, and there is Saa Ri daa in the muktayi svaram which again is Sa-pa type and not Sa-ma.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Nov 2007, 00:02

ri to pa=> it is an upward transition of 5 semitones (sa-ma)

pa to ri => it is a downward transition of 5 semitones(ma-sa).

ri-da and da-ri (same octave) would be 7 semitones. d-R would be 5 semitones (just like s-p is 7, but p-S is 5).

I dont see ri-pa in the varNam but maybe elsewhere,

I wasnt necessarily implying just for mohanam but r2-pa in cm melodies in general (i.e. include melas, ragas like manirangu etc.). I dont know about mohanam.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Nov 2007, 00:06

cmlover wrote:there is Saa Ri daa in the muktayi svaram which again is Sa-pa type and not Sa-ma.

It is g , r s r , d' r d' s ,

It is sa-ma because different octaves. ri - da in the same octave would be sa-pa. Interestingly this is the one place in varnams were you have consecutive "double-jumps" ( ri to da' to ri to da` )

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 10 Nov 2007, 00:12

arunk wrote:
ramakriya wrote:In case of mOhana, r p is quite common. But p r is not, because it immediately suggests kalyANi.
How so? Maybe I am not doing it right: but I just sing: s r~ g p- r~ p g da (~ => typical mohanam ri gamaka), it seems fine. But then that was to me

cml - In any case this would be a correction to my post. Downward transitions of sa-ma type, like pa-ri can indeed occur - perhaps more often than I may have led.

Arun

I tried to illustrate this with a small recording

The first segment illustrates mOhana with several r - p transitions.

http://boomp3.com/m/44f9cdf5bc21

Listen to the second part and tell me if kalyANi is felt even before the first ni or ma occurs.

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Nov 2007, 00:17

thx - but unfortunately cannot listen now as I forgot my headphones!

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Nov 2007, 00:19

pa to ri => it is an upward transition of 5 semitones (sa-ma)

perhaps I am incredibly stupid! I understand pa-ri is avarOhanam and hence you descend five semitones from pa to reach ri which is same as descending five semitones from Sa to reach pa. hence I understood the transition to be in Sa-pa relation! Of course sa-ma is five semitones but that is in ascent. Do I understand that the direction is immaterial!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Nov 2007, 00:24

No I was being incredibly careless.

pa to ri is indeed a *downward* transition. It is still 5 semitones (btw, I fixed the previous post).

sa to pa (i.e. same octave) is not 5 semitones. It is 7 (sa-r1, r1-r2, r2-g2, g2-g3 g3-m1, m1-m2, m2-p)

pa to Sa is 5 (p-d1, d1-d2, d2-n2, n2-n3, n3-S)

Direction is indeed immaterial. But it is not "commutivatve in the same direction" i.e. sa-pa is not equal to pa-Sa. But sa-pa is equal to pa-sa. (this is confusing to write!). In otherwords pa-sa is not equal to pa-Sa. The first one is a downward transition and second is an upward transition. That is why I brought in within same octave

May be we need notation p/S pS but then they look like gamakas

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Nov 2007, 00:56

ramakriya wrote:Listen to the second part and tell me if kalyANi is felt even before the first ni or ma occurs.

-Ramakriya

Good work Ramakriya. Yes, pa ri the way you sang it immediately brings in Kalyani. Is it because of that particular slide of p r that you started with? Later on you sing p r without much slide and there also it sounded like Kalyani but by that time my mind is already set on Kalyani.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Nov 2007, 01:09

I think this results in "smaller transitions" allowing for gamakas to make even those smoother and thus result in a continuity of melody. That is why I said ragas with wide jumps would be a tough inclusion in CM.

Arun, I agree that major ragas have smaller transitions and the gamaka argument holds good there. But, with respect to 'wider jumps', you already mentioned that they are already there. sa-pa is not that uncommon in shankarabaranam and it sounds very nice. You already mentioned kuntalavarali which also sounds very nice. Kathanakuthukalam has jumps in its characteristic phrases and that is well liked. So, my feeling is, if there is a melodic hook, then it gets in to CM practise.. They may not ascend to be a major raga, but then thousands of ragas without jumps do not make it to be a major raga.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Nov 2007, 01:12

ramakriya
No problem accepting the kalyani without any support from ni and ma. But then the gamaka that you have on the pancamam drawl is quite different though kalyani has no special pancama gamakam. If you go fast then there will be no kalyani and it will blend with your jantai in Mohanam. Just listen to yourself
http://boomp3.com/m/8a91bf70c7b3
Actually your pa iis g(m) P where the gamakam for the kalyani gandharam has been infused!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Nov 2007, 01:15

ramakriya - found a spare set of headphones. That was good and spot on. But if one were to not use ri as dhIrga, almost nyAsa like you did, what if it were instead as p , r^-g-p, (r^ => nokku/emphasis), would it be fair to guess that it will have not that strong a kalyani feel?

But in this case, the phrasing sort of may separat pa from ri, and that could explain things

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 10 Nov 2007, 01:19

arunk wrote:But in this case, the phrasing sort of may separat pa from ri, and that could explain things
if it were instead as p , r^-g-p, (r^ => nokku/emphasis), would it be fair to guess that it will have
Arun

That is true too - In one of your exmpales you had one something like s r - p g - d p - r g - s r

When that one is sung with a bit of vishrAnti (silence) where I show - ; it can be 100% mOhana.

My idea was to show that why the p r is not emplyoed too much in mOhana. That's all to it.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 10 Nov 2007, 01:23

Somewhat off the main idea of the thread, but a small video clip to show the p, r, in kalyANi (in yaman actually)

Look at how Nachiketa Sharma indicates the difference between the thAT yaman and rAga yaman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cENz3lPRcPU

BTW, the singer is a good friend of mine

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Nov 2007, 01:26

vk,

statistically speaking wide jumps are still a small fraction of the overall # of transitions. You can youself take a varnam book and look for # of these transitions as a % of # of transitions in the varnam. It is a miniscule %. But they are certainly allowed. Just need to be offered in small doses, at the right time

.

A raga which mandates "too many jumps" is where things can get tricky. And again statistically there are very few such ragas (and they are also "light").

Are the melodies from such a raga never good enough? Of course not. All I am saying is trying to get the familiar CM feel might be a stiff challenge with these. Yes it has been done like in kuntalavarali so it is possible but even there, there are some possibly crucial differences

1. kuntalavarali has consonance going for it: s-m and m-n. In your vasantakokiladwani, you had g3-n2 - not consonant (a ga-n2 or g3-n3 may have worked better).
2. And you had 2 wider jumps (i.e. 7 semitones) - compared to two sa-ma types in kuntalavarali (s-m and m-s. But m-n actually is very common eventhough it is s-m-p-n-d-S) Although we removed one later with g2-r2-n2'-s.

So IMHO, you were stretching the cm envelope quite a bit compared to kuntalavarali there

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Nov 2007, 01:35

Thanks for that video. The yaman pa-ri is quite revealing!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Nov 2007, 01:56

yep. That was good. The thing was sealed and delivered in n' r g itself

. But then that was based on my layman view of HM.

IIRC, in kalyANI varnam I dont think n'-r-g occurs. I know n G R n , R n , S d , .. occurs.

This is a guess: I think n` r g, one of the characteristic stamps of yaman, is not common in kalyani (?) as compared to n` g r, or n ` s r or n` r s. Again, after a jump (i.e. skipping a swara in the structure) like with n` r (sa skipped), to proceed in the same direction (ri to ga), I would like to know how often it occurs in CM. It seems this is quite rare - but I am not sure.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Nov 2007, 02:25

n`r n`r ga ma Thillana by subbarama bhagavatar (raga name I forget

which is sung superbly by KVN in the Dhyanam LP

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Nov 2007, 02:29

good recollection and good example! Question answered although I still would like to know how often (among so many ragas). Wont at all be surprised if it is more often than I think.

That raga is pUrvi.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Nov 2007, 02:34

oh but this n'-r' is N3 and R1. So a smaller jump (2 semitones) than kalyani/yaman.

I think even N3-R2 is not that wide a jump for what I was looking for (although curious to know how n-r-g would fit in kalyani).

Actually, I am looking from stuff like n2'-g2-x or n3'-g3-x or d2'-r2-y where you have an upward transition of 5 semitones (or higher) and then is followed by a higher swara than last

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 10 Nov 2007, 03:22

arunk wrote:IIRC, in kalyANI varnam I dont think n'-r-g occurs. I know n G R n , R n , S d , .. occurs.

An example of n R G appearing in kalAyANi - the phrase bA..lA.. mbi in bhajarE rE chitta.

-Ramakriya

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Nov 2007, 05:21

In the manirangu padavarnam in the muktAyi svaram you have n`, g, r, m, which to me appears to violate the grammar..

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Nov 2007, 06:24

That n` g r is not the example I was looking for because here, after the ascending "jump", we descend. This type is quite common.

Btw, why do you think it violates grammar for s-r-m-p-n-S/S-n-p-m-g-r-s ? Apply our rules and confirm

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Nov 2007, 06:30

i am looking for say n'-g-m. I think it may be a possibility in hindolam.

But I just now thought of this: m-n-s occurs in rItigowLa (although m-n-n-s is way more common). A sa-ma type ascent followed by further ascent. Any more? Note though that this is not unlike s-m-p in kuntalaavarali where the interval is part of the structure. I am quite curious about the wide jump actually skipping swaras and then continued ascent (so n`-g-m in hindolam if it occurs would be one such example)

Any more?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Nov 2007, 07:05

Here is the application of the rule!
ni occurs both in aro and avaro hence you can ascend or descend from ni.
Consider n`g here you are ascending; but g does not appear in aro. Hence you are violating the rule QED
Even n`rg is not allowed; while n`r in ascent is OK, rg violates aro since g does not occur in aro.
Am I OK?

I was also thinking of Hindolam but did not look it up yet...

By the the by don't we have s S in darbar a jump of 12 units; also p P too!