Kambodhi or Kedhara gowlai - Please confirm

naarayanan · Post by **naarayanan** » 19 Jun 2009, 09:11

hi friends,

in the following clip revathi shankaran sings 'twinkle twinkle' in 3 ragas. it sounds vasantha, kambodhi and madhyamavathi to my ears.

but there is a debate that the 2 one is kedhara gowlai. please throw some light.

thanks.

http://carnatiquiz.blogspot.com/2009/06 ... iz-25.html

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 19 Jun 2009, 09:20

It's kEdAra gowLai. She concludes with a p n s, though it's indeed not easy to make out.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Jun 2009, 09:58

It is indeed kedara gowla. Srikant, I wonder why you say it is not easy to make out.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 19 Jun 2009, 10:02

I've listened to this long back, and if you don't remember from experience that kedara gowlai can sound like kambhoji, you might recognise it wrongly -- I did that too.

But when someone's already named kedara gowlai and tells to check if it's kedara gowlai or kambhoji, it's easier, because you look particularly for the differentiating points.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 19 Jun 2009, 17:28

Well, to me, it was Kedaragowlai all the way. From the very first phrase in that song (after the Vasantha segment).. Varaguna Seshadri all the way with the characteristic RMPN phrase

Very little Kambhoji that I can detect.

Sathej

naarayanan · Post by **naarayanan** » 19 Jun 2009, 17:39

thanks srikant. you are right. both are harikambodhi janyam and both share the sampoorna avarohanam.

i have not heard k.g. that much and when i heard the beautiful descent, i immediately correlated with kambodhi which am comfortable with and have heard a lot.

thanks for looking from an amateur's vista.

p.s. and the 3 one also does not sound that much as madhyamavathi, is it sudha saveri?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Jun 2009, 21:11

As Sathej said, there is no confusion there. I am not really a great raga identifier, so I was going 'if I can get it right away, it has to be child's play

' Srikant, that video made its round around here a few months back.

(Naarayanan, all those factors like melakartha and sampoorna or not etc. are secondary and tertiary considerations, right?. Ragas like KG and Kambhoji get their identity through other aesthetic factors like how a swara is caressed etc. )

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 19 Jun 2009, 21:41

Seemed like KG straight away.

naarayanan · Post by **naarayanan** » 19 Jun 2009, 21:55

vk, that's what i also say. one shud have heard kedhara gowlai at least 20-30 times consciously to know its aesthetics.

otherwise, if you go by the swaras alone, there will be some confusion for beginners, when 2 ragas share the same swaras. thats what srikant also shared.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Jun 2009, 22:18

naarayanan, ok I grant you that on a theoretical basis. I can not go by swaras because I am very poor at identifying swaras. I am usually amazed at people who go about raga identification by the method you suggest.

Having said that, I still can not get my mind around why that sampoorna avarohana would remind you only of Kambhodi when there are many other ragas with the same sampoorna avarohana.
Also, what you say about KG applies for kambodhi also. Meaning, one needed to have listened to kambhodi many times to know when it is kambodhi and more importantly to know when it is NOT kambodhi. In the interest of full disclosure, I do confuse one raga for another a lot of times, just not this pair

Let me raise a tangential point. How many beginner rasikas go about mapping the melody to a set of swaras of the right type ( G1, G2 etc ), map it to a mela and try to idenfity the raga. I think that is a much tougher job requiring more musical skills and keen ear than just identifying the raga by simple higher level pattern matching of the aesthetics.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 19 Jun 2009, 22:22

Unless the ragas are ridiculously close melody-wise, I doubt rasikas would even NEED to resort to mapping the scale of the raga to identify the raga.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 19 Jun 2009, 22:24

Thinking back, maybe I didn't think she would pick up a rAgam like kEdAra gowLai for this comic scene ... for such a light-hearted scene, extremely popular and merry rAgams like hamsadhwani mOhanam, bilahari or kambhoji would probably be a natural choice. The vasantA tune is flicked from the very popular varNam, for example.

Maybe my bias led me to a wrong guess.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 19 Jun 2009, 22:31

Also agree with VK that most people, ESPECIALLY beginners, would learn ragas top-down, in other words, starting with their melodic character and working down to the important prayogas, gamakas, etc, as they gain more knowledge about the raga. I do not know anyone who has started identifying ragas by figuring out the swaras being sung!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 19 Jun 2009, 22:32

Yeah, the vasanta came straight out of the ninne kOri varNam, right down to the kalpana swaras she adds to the end of the song.

naarayanan · Post by **naarayanan** » 19 Jun 2009, 23:10

hi all, actually i am a very late beginner in carnatic music. u wud appreciate what i wrote, if u know the background from which i listened to music.

i have not heard any kutchery till i was 23 (now am 34) and even then i have heard very selected kutcheris only. my main source was cine music and only based on the melody i was attracted towards carnatic music.

in cine music, the tunes are more scale based than raga based. i have felt several times a song set in sudha dhanyasi sounding as hindolam, when the tune is not touching pa or dha.

and when i started identifying ragas, it was with selected phrases only. i am still not aware of all the prayogas of any raga.

sure, i agree, even ragas having the same a/a have different treatment in carnatic music like manji and bhairavi. and only the feel or bhava prevails.

but, as srikant said (thanks srikant, u said something in my favour), sometimes some phrases make you think of a raga, for reasons better known to sub conscience.

some bias also, like, if it is in the end, it shud be madhyamavathi etc.

you had mentioned about going about aesthetics to identify a raga. in fact, that is the easiest method.

but when i have not heard that much of carnatic music, it is definitely difficult to differentiate between kamas and natakurinji.

they sound similar in so many places for a novice. so with kedhara gowlai and kambodhi.

naarayanan · Post by **naarayanan** » 19 Jun 2009, 23:16

i hope all the above are conversant with thamizh. sandhadi saakula, i posted a link to my quiz blog. i wud like to have ur comments and suggestions also.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Jun 2009, 23:28

naarayanan, srikant: Got it.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 20 Jun 2009, 02:30

Naarayanan, you are the first person I know who learns ragas from swaras. Interesting! And that does not make you a novice at all--swara gnyanam is more advanced than melodic recognition! And for this clip, if you're unaware of the melody, there are only very subtle clues to differentiate KG from K. For instance, she sings RMPNSR,,, at some stage, I think, which obviously differs from K because K has G in the arohanam. Of course, the ending is PNS like Srikant said, which is different from K as well because most K usually has PD,,,,S or N3PD,,S endings. Other than that, I can't think of any clues.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Jun 2009, 04:39

VK, Bilahari,
I am with you. Most expert musicians give the familiar (and unfamiliar?) rAgAs away within a phrase or two. The recognition comes from the bhAvam of the rAgam rather than from a cluster of svarams. Of course, the prayOgams give them away too.
Yes, bias, and guessing can make it difficult. She is a comedienne and it may make one think that she will handle the rAgams in a light-hearted way--which she does. KG or not--because she is there to make you laugh. A tabla rasa helps so that the rAgam makes its own impact on you without any interference.
Will hear it again.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Jun 2009, 04:44

From the beginning to the 'like a dimaNDU in the sky.... says KG clearly to me.

naarayanan · Post by **naarayanan** » 20 Jun 2009, 07:58

thanks bilahari, vk and arasi.

i can absolutely relate to what u say. bcos with raja's music i can identify most of the songs with just 3,4 notes from anywhere in the entire tune.

the more we hear, the more we r conversant. i will make it a point to hear pure carnatic ragas more and more hereafter.

thanks once again all of you.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 20 Jun 2009, 08:32

The opening fleeting RMPNSRGR phrase is an essential clue to kEdAragowla. It appears in Thyagaraja's 'vEnugAna' in the anupallavi, vEnulella drishti chutti at the 'lella'.

naarayanan · Post by **naarayanan** » 20 Jun 2009, 09:34

http://carnatiquiz.blogspot.com/2009/06 ... iz-28.html

friends, take a look at the above link and share your comments.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 23 Jun 2009, 02:17

Btw, the 3rd ragam in the Twinkle twinkle song is not Madhyamavati - it is Arabhi.

naarayanan · Post by **naarayanan** » 23 Jun 2009, 07:54

thanks ragam talam. yes. it is arabhi.

svkashyap · Post by **svkashyap** » 23 Jun 2009, 10:24

naarayanan your quiz series is awesome. This twinkle twinkle video is superb.

ragam-talam wrote:Btw, the 3rd ragam in the Twinkle twinkle song is not Madhyamavati - it is Arabhi.

What about 4th?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 23 Jun 2009, 10:54

naarayanan · Post by **naarayanan** » 24 Jun 2009, 19:14

thanks kashyap and coolkarniji.

actually, when i started posting this quiz in the 'general discussions' thread, i expected this kind of interaction only. critical yet witty and knowledgeable comments.

dont know why it elicited only lukewarm response!! i mean many people visit the thread, but very few participate.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Jun 2009, 19:24

naarayanan wrote:I mean many people visit the thread, but very few participate.

That is generally how it is here. Most people here for some reason or other like to stay quiet. It can be frustrating

Arun

naarayanan · Post by **naarayanan** » 24 Jun 2009, 19:48

oh. is it?

so, i see quite a no. of like minded people here. shall we make this thread a vivacious place throbbing with activity?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 24 Jun 2009, 19:59

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Jun 2009, 20:19

Ok coolji, here is a spontaneous attempt.

Naarayanan - If you want responses
(i) talk about the greatness of a composer - even if the same sentiment has been expressed a gazillion times. Composer must be dead, preferably before 20th century.
(ii) A variation above - talk about the greatness of yester-year vidwans. Some audio clips may be a must. But as coolji indicates, for every 50 downloads, you will get 1 response. Responses usually will be a variation of (a)great topic! He was really a mahan (b) Thanks. He was a great man. I wish contemporary artists had 1/millionth of his talent and character (b) A great soul (that was for Uday

)
(iii) Present a controversial view that either challenges established tradition or "tries" (nay, dares) to improve on it. This is even better if it is based on some views expressed by a contemporary artist.
(iv) a kadi joke that is cm related. The responses can add up quickly.
(v) Take the route of a troll (could be related to (iii) above).

Arun

PS: Partly in jest

, and partly a vent-out

naarayanan · Post by **naarayanan** » 24 Jun 2009, 21:10

cool ji, even before there was internet, i have heard about the adventures that you embraced while collecting the treasures u possess now, through shri.nageswaran, who also writes in rasikas.

he is my friends dad. can u share some of those 'classic' moments with us.

arun, just as your smilies, i was reading with a big smile on my face. that was a snapshot of rasikas' proclivities.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 25 Jun 2009, 17:45

Well, there are other reasons why a thread doesn't get large no. of hits
- it's not under General Discussions
- other threads have had postings since your thread's last post, so your thread gets pushed to the back. I have missed a few topics like this, and when someone adds a new post, suddenly you find tons of people responding.
- etc.
No need to attribute semi-malicious intents where they don't exist!

To add to arun's list:
7. post wise sayings, preferably from Oscar Wilde (Cool's favorite)
8. start topics on language related topics, esp pronunciations, etc. (Arun's favorite)
etc.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Jun 2009, 18:45

Here is a phychological mumbo-jumbo thought: Our reactions to the quantity and quality of responses from others is a reflection of who we are and so it is a great opportunity to learn about ourselves.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 25 Jun 2009, 19:39

r-t:

- the only trouble is those kind of language related topics while they can accumulate posts, it is usually by the same few usual suspects! Not exactly wider participation.

vk - absolutely true.

Arun

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 25 Jun 2009, 20:43

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Jun 2009, 21:41

Echoing Cool's thoughts: do I yearn for the ethereal presence of a Meena or DRS...

Narayanan,
Another reason for lack of responses is that we have so many threads generated in a day that they hit the bottom before we get to see them.

Since ours is strictly (??!!) a music related forum, topics outside of music languish even more without any reactions. Many read them, but don't respond, that's all. For example, the book review about my collection of poems has barely had any responses after r_t's which says without saying that it is outside of our interests:)

naarayanan · Post by **naarayanan** » 25 Jun 2009, 22:53

hoping most of you know thamizh, 'indha visaranaiyila pala unmaigal velila varum pola iruke' . for those who dont know thamizh, it is a famous dialogue from kamal's ' apoorva sagodharargal'.

regarding quiz thread, i sincerely bring it on top everytime it goes down with a post. hahaha.

arun, waiting for your answers on your 'what's the raga' quiz.

i wud also like to invite you to post in my blog with some 'tough' ones involving shruthi bedham and other techniques.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Jun 2009, 00:22

I will post the answer in a day or so, there is still traffic to it. Thanks for the invite. I will do so when I get a chance. There are a few I posted in the "Swara Identification Exercises" thread under Sangeeta Kalalaya section.

Arun

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 26 Jun 2009, 00:47

Well, there are many reasons for why a particular thread doesn't get too many postings - one reason (God forbid, a real one) could be that it doesn't excite the imagination of too many people, once they visit the thread!

Too bad we can't stand outside and advertize our wares!

Take Arun's awesome cross-word puzzles - the people who participate, and participate very vocally are a small, select few. I for one find them very tough for some reason, and so, after visiting the thread once to see how tough the clues are, I don't particpate. So, how do I know they are awesome? Some of my die-hard cross-word-puzzle-fan friends assure me that they are! In the threads where VKR posts his renditions, I can't play/hear them for some reason, so I do not post in those. In threads where the discussion seems pointless, or I am not able to get my point across, I don't post anymore etc, etc, etc. I rarely visit threads, or read the postings of unidimensional posters...

So, the reasons for not posting are...

And I agree with Arun's bait(s) for eliciting numerous posts! Some of the longest running threads were those where the poster shared his/her thoughts, with no particular concern for 'answer' posts - an example would be DRS' attempt at translating and explaining the compositions of Sri Odeyar (Mysore Maharaja) - all our posts were purely incidental to the main purpose.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Jun 2009, 01:28

Adding one more:

(9) Start a topic complaining why your posts/topics don't get enough responses.

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Jun 2009, 02:55

Arun,
Then, the complainers can read each other's posts which went unnoticed. Fellow UU--Unread Unanimous

I agree with Ravi about your crosswords. I saw all of them, thought your clues were fantastic, but realized that if I found a few answers, I was lucky! To feel how ignorant I am is one option. The other is to be happy that fellow-forumites are so very good in their knowledge of music...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Jun 2009, 03:39

! Actually I always knew that cryptic crosswords has niche audience. I mean, it appeals to a cross section of a cross section. So I never expected wide following. Although IIRC the response on sangeetham.com may have been much more than here - even though the official member base here probably dwarfs sangeetham (active member base may not be that higher compared to sangeetham).
For the notation editor, I definitely expected more but I think my expectations were askew. I have since then realized that notations in cm are more academic than for day-to-day use (e.g. can be used for publishing at best). It simply requires way too much effort for something that you may not refer everyday. So unless there is pressing need, I have no urge for me to work on it anymore. That "audio library" idea thrown about does perk my *technical* interest, but there is zero to even negative incentive at this point to put effort into it. I think even if it came about, it will attract very little attention, or at best a passing interest. Not sure if it is worth it.

Some posts on ragas I did, I know many read (do have stats). I think many listen to audio (no stats on that). But few (from here) comment - or acknowledge. So one has no idea whether it was good, bad or boring. The few who comment liked it, and so at least we know it was not universally boring (except maybe the Abheri one!) ! Of course one shouldn't care if it fancies the interest of others, particularly on a personal blog. But then if it was just for me, I really don't need to create these kind of articles on a blog (compared to rants, comments on life etc.). Besides, I always ask myself as to why I should presume that others would be interested in what I think about a raga anyway!

So I have stopped actively trying to look for "the next raga" to post on (it does take a lot of effort). I am just going to wait until someday, I get the urge to do one "just for the sake of it" - that was how it started. That is much healthier anyway - that is the true spirit of blogging - Spontaneity. Same for crosswords.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Jun 2009, 09:15

Arun, I urge you to do the audio library and I will definitely show interest! I assume the project is that for various ragas, provide characteristic phrases along with Ar/Av

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 26 Jun 2009, 15:32

I have been a participant in Indian music forums since the early 1990s - its hard to maintain regular posts over such a long period. Over time similar topics seem to reoccur so I feel it is pointless restating my views on those issues. Of course, time is a big issue too especially with work, family and study commitments.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 26 Jun 2009, 22:07

naarayanan
Initially when you started putting few quiz questions since I am at work there is no way to listen to the audio clip as I am behind the firewall, when I do come home in the deluge of posts your posts gets buried . You could preferably club about 10 questions , give a brief introduction say 2 or 3 days back and then I am sure your post will have more response . This is what DRS used to do when he had conducted an awesome quiz long time back , there was so much participation. Ofcourse ArunK is a different gene, his crossword puzzle is extremely exciting .

naarayanan · Post by **naarayanan** » 27 Jun 2009, 09:44

thanks rajeshnat, i wud follow ur suggestion.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 27 Jun 2009, 10:03

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 27 Jun 2009, 10:15

A 'super'ior person like you?