hello everyone,
does anybody have any recordings or information regarding ragas from the Marwa thaat, menaning if i'm right the Marwa, Puriya and Sohni ragas ? i find this thaat very intriguing and would like to hear some perfromances of it.
Thanks a lot !
Cheers,
Bob
thaat marwa
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drshrikaanth
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drshrikaanth
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bob denard
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Well, that thaat is particularly intriguing because,along with the Poorvi thaat it is the most different from the Western greek modes, containing at the same time Komal Re, teevra Ma and Shudda Dha . Hence i guess that to my ears, it should produce a very unusual colour. The simpler ragas from simpler thaats (like Bihag from thaat Kalyan) feel more familiar to my ears.
Last edited by bob denard on 19 Aug 2006, 22:06, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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coolkarni
MARWA
first exploded in my consciousness through AMIR KHAN .That commercial album with Malkauns -Megh and Marwa is a priceless classic.For decades it brought in a mood of melancholy to me , like no other raga did.
(until recently when i Saw that Bade saab equated this raga with Veera Ras.I had put this clip up here and can do it again)
anyway here are a few exploratory-short- tracks.
this video clip shows Amir Khan singing Marwa at home with his son blissfully asleep under the tanpura
edited and removed
this second clip gives a peep into the mind of Amir Khan (there is a telling comment from his wife here , too)
edited and removed
The third track -an audio track - is a clip from the middle of a major rendering by Vilayath Khan with Anindo Chatterji.
We can get back to the full recital later , but here he plays like Fayyaz Khan used to sing and says
Fayyaz Khan used to say-all his life-that in his alapanas, he liked to visualise the fragrance of the Been and the Surbahar
and My own Father (a SurBahar and Been Player) used to say
In My Surbahar playing I like to visualise the fragrance of Fayyaz Khan 's singing.
Now i wonder who is being influenced by whom ...
edited and removed
A great concert , as i said earlier.
But we can visit these after looking at a few more interesting renderings.
first exploded in my consciousness through AMIR KHAN .That commercial album with Malkauns -Megh and Marwa is a priceless classic.For decades it brought in a mood of melancholy to me , like no other raga did.
(until recently when i Saw that Bade saab equated this raga with Veera Ras.I had put this clip up here and can do it again)
anyway here are a few exploratory-short- tracks.
this video clip shows Amir Khan singing Marwa at home with his son blissfully asleep under the tanpura
edited and removed
this second clip gives a peep into the mind of Amir Khan (there is a telling comment from his wife here , too)
edited and removed
The third track -an audio track - is a clip from the middle of a major rendering by Vilayath Khan with Anindo Chatterji.
We can get back to the full recital later , but here he plays like Fayyaz Khan used to sing and says
Fayyaz Khan used to say-all his life-that in his alapanas, he liked to visualise the fragrance of the Been and the Surbahar
and My own Father (a SurBahar and Been Player) used to say
In My Surbahar playing I like to visualise the fragrance of Fayyaz Khan 's singing.
Now i wonder who is being influenced by whom ...
edited and removed
A great concert , as i said earlier.
But we can visit these after looking at a few more interesting renderings.
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bob denard
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 19 Aug 2006, 21:13
Coolkarni, thanks for all the great links. I had already found a couple of Marawa songs in the "excellent renditions" thread but here you spoil me ! I will take a look at all that.
Vasanthakokilam, in contemporary western music, we are used to a lot of the scales that make up the thaat, and a few more. Being more precise :
- Bilawal : the major mode, it is the very foundation for Western harmony
- Khammaj : mixolydian, included in the major mode harmonic system, also used a lot for Blues improvisation
- Kafi : dorian, also included in the major mode harmonic system. Was supposedly used extensively during the Middle Ages times before the rise of the tonal system, and is generally used to evoke these times
- Aeolian : the minor natural, though quite natural, it sounds melodically less familiar to our ears (i think) but still, the harmony it contains is ver familiar
- Bharaivi : the Phrygian mode, base of the Flamenco music. Quite familiar
- Bhairav : the harmonic minor mode with a flat 2nd, like a mix between the harmonic minor mode and its own fifth mode. In a way we are used to both. They are generally the reference modes to evoke oriental colours, whether for music for the Maghreb or Middle East, or even for Indian music (i guess). Surely a bit of a cliché...
- Kalyan : lydian, as dorian or phrygian, is used a lot in modal jazz improvisation (George Russell is famous for having based almost all his music on it). Besides in jazz the perfect fourth is used a let loss than the augmented fourth. We are very, very used to it.
Besides we have a few scales of 6, 7 or 8 notes that are commonly used in jazz (or even classical) music : diminshed, octotonic, altered, whole-tone, superlocrian, blues scale...
Then the last three, Marwa, Purvi and Todi. They sound quite unfamiliar in that they mix charasteric notes from two or three distinct modes with completely different tonal values. Todi sounds unfamiliar, but consistently dark to my ears : it has two sequences of three notes a half-step apart (B, C, Db, and F#, G, Ab) plus the minor quality with the Eb. So it's not as surprising as Marwa that, to me, sounds like a mix of the start of the fifth mode of the harmonic minor (dominant of a minor scale) with the last three of the major (tonic of the major !) and even to spice it up, an augmented fourth. Listening to one of the songs in Marwa posted in another thread, the singer performed what would be a A major pentatonic scale over a C. That would surely sound advanced to many of my jazz musician friends !
Hope that makes it clearer !
Cheers
Vasanthakokilam, in contemporary western music, we are used to a lot of the scales that make up the thaat, and a few more. Being more precise :
- Bilawal : the major mode, it is the very foundation for Western harmony
- Khammaj : mixolydian, included in the major mode harmonic system, also used a lot for Blues improvisation
- Kafi : dorian, also included in the major mode harmonic system. Was supposedly used extensively during the Middle Ages times before the rise of the tonal system, and is generally used to evoke these times
- Aeolian : the minor natural, though quite natural, it sounds melodically less familiar to our ears (i think) but still, the harmony it contains is ver familiar
- Bharaivi : the Phrygian mode, base of the Flamenco music. Quite familiar
- Bhairav : the harmonic minor mode with a flat 2nd, like a mix between the harmonic minor mode and its own fifth mode. In a way we are used to both. They are generally the reference modes to evoke oriental colours, whether for music for the Maghreb or Middle East, or even for Indian music (i guess). Surely a bit of a cliché...
- Kalyan : lydian, as dorian or phrygian, is used a lot in modal jazz improvisation (George Russell is famous for having based almost all his music on it). Besides in jazz the perfect fourth is used a let loss than the augmented fourth. We are very, very used to it.
Besides we have a few scales of 6, 7 or 8 notes that are commonly used in jazz (or even classical) music : diminshed, octotonic, altered, whole-tone, superlocrian, blues scale...
Then the last three, Marwa, Purvi and Todi. They sound quite unfamiliar in that they mix charasteric notes from two or three distinct modes with completely different tonal values. Todi sounds unfamiliar, but consistently dark to my ears : it has two sequences of three notes a half-step apart (B, C, Db, and F#, G, Ab) plus the minor quality with the Eb. So it's not as surprising as Marwa that, to me, sounds like a mix of the start of the fifth mode of the harmonic minor (dominant of a minor scale) with the last three of the major (tonic of the major !) and even to spice it up, an augmented fourth. Listening to one of the songs in Marwa posted in another thread, the singer performed what would be a A major pentatonic scale over a C. That would surely sound advanced to many of my jazz musician friends !
Hope that makes it clearer !
Cheers
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bob denard
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 19 Aug 2006, 21:13
Man, thats a great site !!meena wrote:bob
ragas derived from Marwa thaat are:
Bhatiyar, Bhankar, Vibhas, Sohini, Puriya, Puriya Kalya and Marwa.
heres a site that has wealth of info/audio clips:
http://www.itcsra.org/sra_raga/sra_raga ... p?thatid=7
The audio files are of high quality. The fundamentals of the raga exposed and the very good singing are very helpful. Excellent to see all the differences between ragas from a same thaat.
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drshrikaanth
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bob denard
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Absolutely ! (the last note is "si")rshankar wrote:Bob,
Is this the same as the major melody with the scale do re mi fa so la ti?
Ravi
Last edited by bob denard on 20 Aug 2006, 20:03, edited 1 time in total.
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coolkarni
DRS
ha ha
I can hear my Dad laughing in the Heavens.
Those were the words of Vilayath Khan at approx halfway mark in the clip.
The only musical Gift my Dad had -and which he passed on to me- was the ability to cultivate a good ear , the sense to make it a life long activity and a fascination for a Westerners approach to store and document such stuff for the sake of posterity.
ha ha
I can hear my Dad laughing in the Heavens.
Those were the words of Vilayath Khan at approx halfway mark in the clip.
The only musical Gift my Dad had -and which he passed on to me- was the ability to cultivate a good ear , the sense to make it a life long activity and a fascination for a Westerners approach to store and document such stuff for the sake of posterity.
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rshankar
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And we thank him and god for that!coolkarni wrote:The only musical Gift my Dad had -and which he passed on to me- was the ability to cultivate a good ear , the sense to make it a life long activity and a fascination for a Westerners approach to store and document such stuff for the sake of posterity.
Ravi
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vasanthakokilam
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Thanks Bob. That indeed makes it clear. A couple of points...bob denard wrote:Vasanthakokilam, in contemporary western music, we are used to a lot of the scales that make up the thaat, and a few more.
......
......
Hope that makes it clearer !
Cheers
1) When someone asks 'what is a raga', the first answer is a nebulous 'it is based on a scale but it is not the scale'..So when you hear the 'sameness' in those seven thAts, do you also hear the 'stuff that is beyond the scale'? I am curious about this because, when I hear harmonic minor in a western context, it sounds very exotic to me ( almost latin americanish or middle eastern ) but when I hear kIravANi raga, I do not hear any of that, I hear kIravANi. It may just be my cultural conditioning.
2) After the Marwa thAt ragas, you can venture into the carnatic vivAdhi ragas, if you want something that sounds quite different.
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bob denard
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- Joined: 19 Aug 2006, 21:13
Yes it is the equivalent of of Sankarabharanam.rshankar wrote:So, bilAwal is CM's SankarAbharaNam, right?Absolutely ! (the last note is "si")
Last edited by bob denard (Today 00:33)
Kulkarni sa'ab/Badri,
Mohd. Rafi's tErE bharOsE hE nandlAlA is in bilAwal, right?
Ravi
Is that a song or performance you're talking about ? I am virtually ignorant in these matters...
Last edited by bob denard on 20 Aug 2006, 22:02, edited 1 time in total.
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bob denard
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- Joined: 19 Aug 2006, 21:13
That's what i'm trying to grasp listening to this music right now. The way the raga sounds. The ornamentation, the "vadi", the choice of notes inside a thaat (including using notes that don't belong to the thaat !) make it all a different conception than western use of notes in melody, which i'd say is more structured bot not as subtle. For some ragas from a some thaat, i can clearly hear the difference. For some others (the more exotic ones) i can't yet. And there are some ragas from different thaats that really sound alike !vasanthakokilam wrote:Thanks Bob. That indeed makes it clear. A couple of points...bob denard wrote:Vasanthakokilam, in contemporary western music, we are used to a lot of the scales that make up the thaat, and a few more.
......
......
Hope that makes it clearer !
Cheers
1) When someone asks 'what is a raga', the first answer is a nebulous 'it is based on a scale but it is not the scale'..So when you hear the 'sameness' in those seven thAts, do you also hear the 'stuff that is beyond the scale'? I am curious about this because, when I hear harmonic minor in a western context, it sounds very exotic to me ( almost latin americanish or middle eastern ) but when I hear kIravANi raga, I do not hear any of that, I hear kIravANi. It may just be my cultural conditioning.
2) After the Marwa thAt ragas, you can venture into the carnatic vivAdhi ragas, if you want something that sounds quite different.
Thanks for your advice, i'll check it out..
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coolkarni
Bob
Ravi was referring to Music from Indian Films .
I will try and locate that song.
Indian Films have had a tradition of having 6-10 songs (just a representative figure) in a movie -mostly picturised on the leading actors.
In the initial years of Recorded Music in India, they were composed very closely on the lines of these Ragas.
In fact many of the leading singers were either musicians or were trained in classical music.
With passage of time , a new breed of Film music Directors appeared on the scene.
There was a lot more innovation in the use of these well known ragas which attracted the likes of us who grew up in the 60s and 70s.
I put the date of departure from this practice as 1975 , but that is my assessment.
It is a fascinating experience to listen to these songs -which to laymen like us- first appeal to our melodic instincts .Scratch the surface a bit and one witnesses the magic of the raga.
This is precisely what Ravi was referring to.
We have been discussing this genre of music elsewhere under Hindusthani and you could keep a tab on that too.
Here is a link to a Word document which displays a few passages from a book by a Noted Music Critic-Dr Raghava Menon.
edited and removed
It is a simple but highly readable book that should answer most of your questions.
I have reproduced a few passages that are relevant to the questions you have raised here.
I have given details of the place from where the book can be purchased , too.
This should be of some help..
Here is a song for today..Based on raag kedar
I can see the smirk on Ravis face
edited and removed
Ravi was referring to Music from Indian Films .
I will try and locate that song.
Indian Films have had a tradition of having 6-10 songs (just a representative figure) in a movie -mostly picturised on the leading actors.
In the initial years of Recorded Music in India, they were composed very closely on the lines of these Ragas.
In fact many of the leading singers were either musicians or were trained in classical music.
With passage of time , a new breed of Film music Directors appeared on the scene.
There was a lot more innovation in the use of these well known ragas which attracted the likes of us who grew up in the 60s and 70s.
I put the date of departure from this practice as 1975 , but that is my assessment.
It is a fascinating experience to listen to these songs -which to laymen like us- first appeal to our melodic instincts .Scratch the surface a bit and one witnesses the magic of the raga.
This is precisely what Ravi was referring to.
We have been discussing this genre of music elsewhere under Hindusthani and you could keep a tab on that too.
Here is a link to a Word document which displays a few passages from a book by a Noted Music Critic-Dr Raghava Menon.
edited and removed
It is a simple but highly readable book that should answer most of your questions.
I have reproduced a few passages that are relevant to the questions you have raised here.
I have given details of the place from where the book can be purchased , too.
This should be of some help..
Here is a song for today..Based on raag kedar
I can see the smirk on Ravis face
edited and removed
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coolkarni