Thyagaraja (Krithis)

[RSR]

ajaysimha
-------------
Thank you very much.
'Nannu paalimpa' ( mohanam") is siad to be the kriti associated with the picture. Thyagaraja was not aware of the visit by Ramchandra. It was his wife who had the bliss of darsanam. Ofcourse, we naver know.

[RSR]

When we sing Yhyagaraja kritis, there are two styles. 1) As prayer 2) As exploring the music.
In a normal concert, the singers just dont sing the kritis. but add raga alapana, swarams and such. But in any concert exclusively meant fot paying our respect to Saint Thyagaraja, the right tradition is just to sing a series of his kritis, where the composer himself, is giving stress on the devotional aspect rather than the art of music embellishments. With that in mind, I chose the following gems for a thyagaraja araadhana event.
I plan to give atleast 60 such moving kritis. ( in instalments) Not in any particular order.
1) sangeetha gnyaanamu ( dhanyasi)
2) upacharamu (bairavi)
3) koluva maragate ( todi)
4) janaki ramaNa ( suddha seemandhini)
5) Nannu paalimpa ( mohanam)
6) chakkani raaja maarga ( karaharapriya)
7) Namakusuma ( sriragam)
8) meru samaana ( mayamaLavagowLa)
9) kanaka ( varaaLi)
10)ksheenama ( mukari)
( to be continued)

[RSR]

in continuation of @327
--------------------
11) giripai - sahaanaa
12) sujana jeevanaa - kamaaj
13) dinamani vamsa - harikambodhi
14) intha sowkyamu - kaapi
15) saamajavara gamanaa- hindolam
16) aadhayasri - Ahiri
17) bantu reethi - hamsanadham
18) enta nerchina - suddha danyasi
19) evari maata - kambodhi
20) jagathaanandakaraka-Nttai

[RSR]

21) Nenendhu vedu kuduthura - karanataka behag
22) bala kanaka maya- aTanaa
23) Nidhi chaala sukama - kalyaNI
24) vadare deivamu -panthuvaraaLi

[RSR]

25)gnanamosagaradha- poorvikalyaNi-mss
26)swararaga sudha - sankarabaraNam-mss
27)vara Narada- vijayasree-mss
28) santhamulega sowkyamo- saama-dkp
29) vidajalathura -janaranjani-mss
30) paraloka bayamu - mandaari-mss
31) pavamuna suthudu - sowrashtram
32) vandhanamu ragunandhana- sahana-dkp
33) yemi jesithe- todi-ncv
may be continued)

[RSR]

in continuation of post
34)koluvai-yunnAde Bhairavi
35)chetularA Kharahapriya
36) nadachi-nadachi Kharahapriya DKP
37)swara-rAgAsudha ShankarABharaNa MSS
38)darini-telusukontini ShuddhasAvEri-MSS
39)kAla-haranamElarA-harE ShuddhasAvEri DKP
40)sogasugA-mrudanga SrIranjani
41) tolijanma bilahari, DKP
42) aparAdhamula darbAr DKP
43)yOchanA darbAr , DKP
44)mOsabOku-vinavE gouLipantu MSS
45) entarAni harikAmbhOji , DKP
46)rAma-nannu-brOva harikAmbhOji-DKP
47)rAmA-ninnE-nammi husEni
48)mAmava-satatam jaganmOhini DKP
49)ShObillu jaganmOhini MSS --

50)mI-valla kApi MSS *
51)Etavunara kalyANi GNB
52)vAsudeva-yani kalyANi
53)tuLasIdaLa mAyAmAlavagouLa
54)vidulaku-mrokEdA mAyAmAlavagouLa
55)ElAvatAra mukhAri DKP , NCV
56)entanine mukhAri -dkp
57)kAru-bAru-sEyu mukhAri MSS
58)jagadAnandakAraka nATa MSS
59)karunAjaladhE nAdanAmakriya MSs
60)nIkE-dayarAka nIlAmbari mss
====
61)telisi-rAma pUrNachandrika-MMI
62)jnanamosagarAda pUrvikalyANi MMI
63)appa-rAmaBhakthi panthuvarALi-MMI
64)tava-dAsOham punnAgavarALi MSS
65)mAkElarA ravichandrika
66)niravadhi ravichandrika
67)enta-Bhagyamu sAranga MMI
68)ennadO sourAstra DKP
69)dASharathe tOdi MSS
70)kaddAnu-vAriki tOdi -ncv
---------------
71)munnu-rAvana tOdi DKP ,MSS
72)vAridhi-nIku tOdi DKP
73)eTi-janmamidi varaLi dkp
74) manasulOni varamu MSS
75)nI-dayarAda vasantha-Bhairavi NCV
--------------
76) vara-nArada vijayaSrI MSS
77)entanuchu yadukula-kAmbhOji DKP
78)hecharikagArAra yadukula-kAmbhOji MMI , MSS
===

[RSR]

I think, we can reach upto 100 kritis . There are a number of ragas having only one kritis by the swami. it so happens that many such kritis are classics! (ex) janakiramana ( suddha seemanthini) and saamajavaragaana ( hindolam). and a lot of ragams with non-familiar names.
-------------
based on the information in sangeethapriya site, i prepared a list of ragams used and the number of kritis in each such ragam.
Surprisingly, even THYAGARAJA SWAMI has used only about 60 very well-known ragams.
and the total number of kritis in each of those ragams when added up came to just 500 kritis.
-----
In a planned subsequent list, i will give single-kriti ragams and rare-ragams. the totla may not exceed 100!
------------
why not have thyagaraja swami's kritis as bench mark?
how many vovalists can really renderall the kritis?
-----------------------------------------
arabi---14
anandabairavi -4
bairavi- 19
ghanta -8
karaharapriya-13
sankarabaranam- 34
suddhasaveri- 5
sriranjani- 5
------------------102
atanaa-14
asaveri-8
begada- 11
balahamsa-8
bilahari-11
desiyatodi- 5
devamanohari-4
darbar-10
devagandhari-12
dhanyasi-8
--------------------------91
goulipantu-5
harikambodhi-11
huseni-7
hamsadwani-3
jaganmohini-2
janaranjani-3
kamboji-7
kaapi-13
kedaragowla-12
kalyani-20
------------------------------83

kuntalavarali-3
mayamalavagowla-5
mohanam-13
madhyamavathi-14
mukari-10
naattai-2
naattakurinji-3
nadanamakriya-2
narayanagowla-4
naayaki-3
------------------------------59
neelaambari-7
purnachandrika-3
purvikalyani-4
panthuvaraali-13
punnagavarali-11
ritigowla-10
ravichandrika-2
saama-3
saranga-6
saaveri-18
---------------------------------67
sahanaa-10
souraashtram-20
surutti-9
todi-27
varali-16
vasantha-3
vasanthabairavi-2
vijayasree-1
yadukula kamboji-10
yamunkalyani-5
----------------------------103
========================
major section over

total ( 58 ragam)
=====
102
-----
91
83
59
67
103
=====
505

**********************************************************************

[RSR]

Thyagaraja swami gave us many songs in special ragams but only one or two.
and the names of ragams are not very well-nown either.
that is no reason not to explore them.
because many hugely popular kritis are the only krithi in that ragam.
for exnmple nagumomu is the only krithi by Thyagaraja in abheri and so on.
---------------
This is an attempt to give a birds eye view of such ragams and songs for exploration.
there are 140 such ragams and 180 kritis because some of them have two or four kritis.


1) abhimAnamu AndAli
2)rAga-sudhArasa AndhOlikA
3)SrI-kAnta-nEyada Bhavapriya
4)sarivArilOna Bhinnashadjam
5)dEnajanAvana BhupAla
6)tana-mIdanE BhushAvaLi
-----------------
7)itara-daivamula chAyAtarangiNi
kripa-jUchutaku ChAyAtarangiNi
--------------------------------
8)idi-samayamurA ChAyanATa
--
9)manasA-SrI-rAma Isa-manOhari
SrI-jAnakI-manOhara Isa-manOhari
--------------------------------
10) phanipati-sAyi JhankAradwani
--------------------------------
11)Bhajare-bhaja Kannada
Ide-bhagyamu Kannada
ninnAda-nela Kannada
sAketa-niketana Kannada
-----------------------------
12) Ora-jupu KannadagouLa MMI*
sogasu-jUda KannadagouLa
-------------------------------
13) rAma-bhakti ShuddhabangALa MMI *
tappagane ShuddhabangALa
toli-nE-jEsina ShuddhabangALa
====================
14) endu-kaugalintu ShuddhadEsi
raghunandana ShuddhadEsi
-------------------------------
15) rAkA-Shasi-vadana Takka
16) ChallaganAto Vegavahini
17) nI-chittamu Vijaya-vasanta
============================
18)nagumomu abhEri *
--
19)manasu-nilpa abhOgi *
nannu-brOva abhOgi
nIlakaNTha-niranjana abhOgi
------------------------------
20)Adaya-SrIraghu ahiri Alathur- ,
challare ahiri MSS *,
etula-kApAdutuvo ahiri
pUlapAmpumida ahiri
--------------------------------
21)SrI-rAma-pAdamA amritavAhini DKP ,

-----------------------------
22)brOvabAramA bahudAri
----------------------------
23) girirAjasuta bangAla
MunupE-teliyaga bangAla
sAkshilEdanuchu bangAla
=======
24) enta-muddO bindumAlinin

25) mElukOvayya bouLi

26)kamalAptakula brindAvanasAranga

27) jayatu-jayatu chUrnika
----------------------
28)etula-brOtuvO chakravAka Alathur-Brothers ,
sugunamulE chakravAka Alathur
-------------------------------

29) bAgAyanayya chandrajyOti
ShashivadanA chandrajyOti
-------------------------------
30)mahAganESam bhavAbharaNam
31) ADamODi charukEsi MSS
32) nAdatanumanisham chittaranjani-mmi
33)kalalanErchina dIpika
34)evarani devAmritavarshini
35)nATimATa devakriya
36) teliyalEru dhEnuka MSS
37)lilagAnu-jUche divyamani
38)daya-jUchuTaku gAnavardhini
39)sadA-madini gambhIravANi
40)gAnamUrtE ganamUrti
41)evvarE-rAmayya gangEyabhUShaNi
42) AnandasAgara garudadwani
tatvameruga garudadwani
-------------
43) duDukUgala gouLa
44)gurulEkha gourImanOhari
DKP
45)intanuchu-varnimpa gundakriya
46)varAlandu gurjari
47)rA-rA-sitAramani hinolavasantam
48)nI-bhakti jayamanOhari
SrI-ramya-chittA jayamanOhari
yagnAdulu jayamanOhari
------------------
49)manavini-vinumA jayanArAyaNi
50)marugElarA jayantaSrI
51)vinatAsuta jayantasena
52)navanIta-chOra jenjUti
rAma-rAma-rAma jenjUti
53)anAthuDanu jingala
54)parAku-jEsina jujAhuli

55) vidhi-Emi kAmavardini
56)E-dAri kAntAmani
pAlintuvO kAntAmani
57)sarasa-sAmadAna kApinArAyaNi
58) nannu-kannatalli kEsari
59)kaligiyuntEgAda kIrvAni-mss
60)koniyAdina kOkiladwani
toli-nenu-jEyu kOkiladwani
61)dAsharathe kOkilapriya
62) samukhAna-nilva kOkilavarAli
63) madilOna kOlahalam
64) vAchAmagOcharamE kaikavasi
65) SrI-janaka-tanayE kalAkAnti
66) chinnAnADe kalAnidhi

67) ennadu-jUtuno kalAvati,
68) okasAri kalAvati
69) samayamu-yEmarakE kalgada
70)nI-muddumOmu kamalAmanOhari
-----------------------
71)SrI-gananAtham kanakAngi
72)nEnendu karnAtaka-bEhag
73)eTi-yOchanalu kiranAvali
parAku-nIkElarA kiranAvali
---------
74) I-diname latAngi
75) nenarunchinAnu mAlavi *
76)evaritO-nE mAnavati
77) manasA-SrI-rAmuni mAraranjani
78)chalamElarA mArgahindOlam
79)mrudu-bhAShana mAruvadhanyAsi
80)ennallu-tirigEdi malavaSrI
81)paritApamu manOhari
82) atukAdArani manOranjani
83)manasA-mana manasAmarthyavardhani
84)paralOka-bhaya mandAri
85)jaya-jaya-SrI mangalakaishiki
86) nIku-sari manirangu
rAnidi-rAdu manirangu
87) paTTi-viduvarAdu manjari
88)kripAla-vAla nAdavarAngini
-------------------------
89)sattalEni nAgAnandini
90) SrIpatE-nEpada nAgaswarALi
91)BhajanasEyu nArAyaNi DKP
rAmA-nIvE-gAni nArAyaNi
92) mAravairi nAsikAbhUShaNi
93)nAyeda naBhOmani
94)manavinAlakincharA nalinakAnti MSS
95) lEmi-delpa navanItam
96)
ninnuvina navarasakannada MSS
palukau-kanda navarasakannada
-------------------
97) palukavEmi pUrNachandrika,
SrI-rAma-rAma pUrNachandrika
telisi-rAma pUrNachandrika MMI
----------
98) kalugunA pUrNalalita
99) lAvanya-rAma pUrNashadjam
SrI-mAninI-manOhara pUrNashadjam
-----------
100)sanAtanA phalamanjari
101) SrI-nArasimha phalaranjani
102) varamaina pharaju

103) vinanAsakoni pratApavarALi
104)sArvaBhauma rAgapanjaram
varadA-navanItASha rAgapanjaram
105) sandEhamunu rAmapriya
106) nI-morabeTTite rUpavati
107) sItA-manOhara ramAmanOhari
108) durmArgachara ranjani
109)aparAdhamula rasALi MMI
110) mAkElarA ravichandrika
niravadhi ravichandrika*
111) grahabalamEmi revagupti MSS
112) mahima-dakkinchikO rishaBhapriya
113) padavinI sAlaga-Bhairavi
114)mOkshamu-galadA sAramati
115)prAnanAtha sUlini
116) muddumOmu sUryakAnta
117) menujUchi sarasAngi
118) anurAgamulE sarasvati
119)enta-vEdukontu sarasvati-manOhari MSS
120) nI-parAkramamu shanmukhapriya
vaddane-vAru shanmukhapriya
=
121) evaraina-lErA siddhasEna
122) nenarunchara simhavAhini
123) devAdidEva sindhurAmakriya , MSS ,
sudhAmAdhurya sindhurAmakriya
===
124) raminchuvArevarurA supOShini
125) vara-shikhivAhana supradIpa
126)prArabdhamiTLu swarAvaLi
127) varadarAja swaraBhuShaNi
128) sarijEsi tIvravAhini
129)enta-nErchina udayaravichandrika dkp

130) nijamarmamulanu umABharana MMI

131) kanTajUdumi vAchaspati

132)paramAtmudu vAgadhIswari
-------------------------------
133) Emani-pogadutura vIravasantha GNB , MLV ,
134) E-rAmuni-nammitinO vakulABharaNa
135) pariyAsakAmA vanaspati ,
==
136)manasulOni varamu MSS
136) nI-dayarAda vasantha-Bhairavi NCV
ramA-ramana vasantha-Bhairavi
--------------------
137) pAhi-rAma-dUta
vasantha-varaLi

138) vara-nArada vijayaSrI MSS

139) vinavE-O-manasA vivardhani
140)sarasIruhAnanA amritavarshiNi
==========================
TOTAL 140 RAGAMS
180 SONGS
=========================

[RSR]

in continuation of #331
===============

75)nI-dayarAda vasantha-Bhairavi NCV
--------------
76) vara-nArada vijayaSrI MSS
77)entanuchu yadukula-kAmbhOji DKP
78)hecharikagArAra yadukula-kAmbhOji MMI , MSS
===================================
80)rAga-sudhArasa AndhOlikA
81)Ora-jupu KannadagouLa MMI*

82)rAma-bhakti ShuddhabangALa MMI *
83)nagumomu abhEri (musiri, mss)
84)manasu-nilpa abhOgi *
85)Adaya-SrIraghu ahiri
86)brOvabAramA bahudAri

87)ADamODi charukEsi MSS
88)nAdatanumanisham chittaranjani-mmi

89)teliyalEru dhEnuka MSS
90)gurulEkha gourImanOhari
DKP

----
91)sarasa-sAmadAna kApinArAyaNi-mmi
92)kaligiyuntEgAda kIrvAni-mss
93)nenarunchinAnu mAlavi *

94)BhajanasEyu nArAyaNi DKP

95)manavinAlakincharA nalinakAnti MSS
96)ninnuvina navarasakannada MSS
97)telisi-rAma pUrNachandrika MMI

98)aparAdhamula rasALi MMI
99)devAdidEva sindhurAmakriya , MSS ,

100)nijamarmamulanu umABharana MMI
--------------------
=====================

[RSR]

Thyagaraja Swami 's kritis are about 700 according to sangeethapriya site.
http://www.sangeethapriya.org/tributes/ ... ithis.html
------------------------------------------------------
The list of kritis can be sorted on the basis of ragams.
-----------------------------------------------------
Then I found that there are about 140 ragams having only one or two kritis.
Some of these 'single-kriti' ragams-kritis are very famous and nice.
------------------------------------------------------
I had also read that Thyagaraja Swami preferrred the first 32 meLakarta scales. even for these rare ragams.
To verify, I tried to list the single kriti ragams , alphabetically and note their parent scale.
----------------------------------------------
This is the work in last two days.
If the column in right side is yellow, then, it is a suddhamadhyamam scale
If it is cyan, then, it is pathimadhyamam scale
-----------------------------------------------
I observed that Thyagaraja Swami has carefully chosen, only such MK scales even in SuddhaMadhyama set, where there are no vivadi swaras.
----------------------------------------------
The non-vivadi scales are numbered
8 to 11, 14 to 17, 20 to 23, 26 to 29 ,only.
(16 scales).
The first 32 - using M1.
======================================
My contention is that we can totally avoid notation like R3,G3 , D3 and N3.
if we follow the Trinity's choice of ragams.
----------------------
We can then follow
S R1 R2 G1 G2 M1 M2 P D1 D2 N1 N2 S
as in Hindusthani music.

https://sites.google.com/site/4carnatic ... a-keyboard
----------------------------------------------------
Even for swara-singing , there is no problem , as a raga based on a non-vivadi sampoorna meLa ragam , will not touch any vivadi swaram.
( am I right?)
===================================
I have used a pdf book named RARE RAGAS HANDLED BY THYAGARAJA,
=================================
and re-arranged the material.

https://sites.google.com/site/4carnatic ... ms-parents

[ajaysimha]

great effort sir! liked it very much

[RSR]

great effort sir! liked it very much

Very glad. Thank you.

[RSR]

1) The songs in Nauka Charithram opera by Thyagaraja are explicitly erotic and vulgar in theme and lyrics...So unlike ALL the other kritis of him. and also unlike those of Shyama Sastry and MD.
Can we surmise that the set is spurious?
Are these being sung in concerts by any artiste?
=============================================
2) Are there any kritis by other greats from Purandaradasa, Kanakadasa, Ramadasu, NaraayaNa theertha, Tamil moovar, Sadasiva Brammendram, the Trinity, Swathi thiruNaaL, gopoalakrushna BAarathy and the three Sivans..erotic in theme?
( note that I have left out Annamacharya, OVK, )

[SrinathK]

1) The songs in Nauka Charithram opera by Thyagaraja are explicitly erotic and vulgar in theme and lyrics...So unlike ALL the other kritis of him. and also unlike those of Shyama Sastry and MD.
Can we surmise that the set is spurious?
Are these being sung in concerts by any artiste?
=============================================
2) Are there any kritis by other greats from Purandaradasa, Kanakadasa, Ramadasu, NaraayaNa theertha, Tamil moovar, Sadasiva Brammendram, the Trinity, Swathi thiruNaaL, gopoalakrushna BAarathy and the three Sivans..erotic in theme?
( note that I have left out Annamacharya, OVK, )

You forgot Soundarya Lahiri. Or the Azhwars, or Chaitanya, or Jayadeva Or Manikkavasagar and so on... None of them have had a problem with shringara and we revere them highly. Next thing you will call all of them vulgar.

The problem is not with Annamacharya or Thyagaraja or any of the above, it is simply that you have a huge puritanistic problem with shringara bhava, though no life or any of us would be here without it. In our old books bhakti was expressed through all emotions, not just dasa or vatsalya bhava. This puritanism is a conseqence of the Victorian era dogma imposed by others (and we know what those people did when no one was looking).

In this country, shringara has turned into a huge irony, where everyone from the "good" teenager to the godman pursue it covertly in problematic ways with a lot of shame or scandal involved, while in other places it has become an unhealthy addiction that could bring down their society in hedonism and depression, destroying families in the process.

I mean, we make shringara a sin, while we will soon be the most populous country on earth. The next generation, fed up with the hypocrisy of their elders, and having unlimited access to far more than what their brains are safely designed to handle wants to make it an addiction. And they get into all sorts of problems. Where's balance? Where is awareness?

Neither is healthy and both extremes represent a colossal awareness failure. If food was an analogy, in such societies you either have obese man-hills or walking skeletons, but never anyone fit and healthy.

The puritanical facade of especially us brahmins conceals a very long history of very shady stuff under the carpet, and sometimes openly too. I have stories from 4 generations back and beyond of what arAjagam was done in the name of AchAram. Some of this even came out in the CM world last year. These days I do not want to elaborate on what their next gen's are doing. While the West, well, don't ask... it's law of the jungle

This is the result of treating everything through emotion and not awareness.

I have always felt that by channeling shringara into art and spirituality, people have found an outlet that is healthy and balanced, neither dogmatic nor addictive and it allowed them to express emotions that they cannot do in reality without creating problems, much like how we all want to fly like a bird but many "bird men" trying valiantly with no knowledge of science ended up dead before the airplane was invented.

To me both the theoretical brahmachari or monk who always worries about the opposite sex all the time and the addict who can't help himself are both suffering the same problem in 2 different ways. In both cases, I see an inability to be at balance and ease with oneself (asana) - it is not the characteristic of a well adjusted adult. Even Gandhiji, in my opinion, his brahmachari attempts became an ego thing for him, and it resulted in him doing creepy stuff many normal people wouldn't.

There is experience behind this. I have seen both extreme cases in my life for 2 of my friends. They both ended up a mess in their lives, in different ways. That is when I started questioning the whole thing. This is what happens when monks give theoretical advice on the subject.

I'd recommend reading Gopi Krishna's book on Kundalini the evolutionary energy in man or the series of books by an amazing author known only as Santatagamana on Amazon -- this is pure experience based knowing, without theory or dangerous dogmatic misunderstandings that fail the test of real life.

The best would be the Bhagavatam itself. The lessons in bhAgavata from the story of Puranjana to King Puru who lost their integrity and strength to due being shringara's victims to the way Krishna handles it as a true master of shringara - this is the only way to handle it. It took 12 years for me to understand it.

I just had to say this because you keep mentioning it. None of our composers ever had a problem with any of the rasas because they just saw them as different aspects of emotion and life. Only you and anyone else who wants to make one dimension of life holy and another a vulgarity have the problem.

[RSR]

@339
@SrinathK
Sufferance of animal passion as a necessary evil, but still an evil, it is an evolution. from 'nagna' world. There is such a thing as 'sublimation' even according to Freud . ( Ego, Libido and then Super-ego ). All civilization is due to Super-ego. The animal-level desire becomes Romantic affection ( even Platonic). It is with such , that World Literature is the stuff. ( Ever tried the Bard? Tolstoy?)
I would rather not discuss things like Philosophy, Ethics, Literature and Social values , in this forum. Kindly do grant that I could have read more , reflected more and moved with greater souls. I wonder what RaviSri brothers would say from Ashramam of RamaNa Maharishi ! or devotees of Shirdi Mahaan would say! Ever read the lives of people like NarayanaGuru, C.F.Andrews, Mother Therasa ? Should we not raise ourselves from the humdrum lives and avoid cynicism?
'deha upaadhaikaL', do not make ultimate values in life.
Venerated heads of monastic orders in all the religions still exist today. and a few violations of the code, by some who go astray do not take away their glory.
--------------------------------
I just want to know, if there are kritis by Purandaradasa, Kanakadasa, Ramadasu, Naraayana Theertha, Sadasiva Brammendam, Shyama Sastry, MD, Subbaraya Sastry, Swathi ThirumnaaL, Goplakrushna Barathy.. (I will stop with them) who have created any krithi or song in the erotic theme. as done by Kshethragnya.
To the best of my knowledge, none of them including Thyagaraja did.
We do not have to go to Victorian era. for disapproving the erotic theme. Except in a small part of the Bagavatham tradition, stuff is not found in either Divya Prabandham or in Thevaram/Thiruvasakam.
If you want titillating trash, we get plenty in Devi Bagavatham. According to Indian Bakthi tradition, the greatest evil is lust. even worse than greed and pride. That is Bagavath Gita. Our tradition looks at Women as Motherhood. All Shyama Sastry songs are in veneration of ambaaL, So are quite a few by MD. Are they describing the erotic appeal?
Confine yourself strictly to CM lyrics and the accepted traditions.
If the vak-geya-karars held in veneration by CM community, have eschewed that theme, I am not far wrong in detesting the theme. likewise. I will be in good company.
So, just waiting, for a few songs explicitly erotic, by pre-Trinity the Trinity and their contemporaries. to correct my assertion.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

https://youtu.be/ZAsYl2hOF44

[RSR]

Since when poets like Jayadeva became CM composers? My question was very specifically related to CM. I will take lessons about Ehics and values from other more deserving thinkers and practitioners.
A typical lumpen- half-baked 'kundalini-stuff' sociologist never concedes that there could be people like scientists, social workers, revolutionaries , and such, who hardly have the time or inclination for even thinking of eroticism. 'Let us not treat others like ourselves' in this respect. Address your harangue elsewhere.
@SrinathK

[RSR]

@342
Thanks to Sri.V.Govindan, we have translations of ShyamaSastry, Thyagaraja and MD.
If you give a list of krithis , I can check them myself.
I hate all this tube stuff.

[SrinathK]

It should not be surprising that Thyagaraja composed in shringAra rasa and that somehow means naukA charitram could be spurious. I got triggered reading that - that whole shringAra is evil thing. Someone like Shuka gave us the bhAgavatam and the Uddhava gita, so why not Thyagaraja give us a naukA charitram?

Jayadeva is a vakgeyakara. The original gita govindam has ragas, and many of them are described like real characters, which having made enough metaphors on ragas, I can relate to as this happens when you know them very well.

All our scriptures have been careful to distinguish between shringAra as a rasa and an inner experience vs the usual results of uncontrolled lust. Only a bhAgavatam can discuss a Purana and a rasa lila in the same breath - because the results are proof. The explanation of the mAm Ekam sharnam vraja verse by Krishna in the Uddhava gita is... interesting. Since you mentioned Ramana Maharshi in high regard, may I recommend the version of the Bhagavatam by Nochur Venkataraman where this year at NGS he spoke about the gOpi gita? I am waiting for when he will get to the 11th skandam.

kritis like rA rA seeta ramani manOhara can be both vAtsalya Or shringAra bhAva too. Then there's kana kana ruchira. There are padams on shiva and muruga also.

In general, shringAra has always been the realm of Krishna and not Rama. Hence only kshetrayya and Annamacharya composed a lot of padams. Quite a few of the Kshetrayya padams were actually brought out in SSP.

Swati Tirunal has a lot of shringAra compositions to his credit.

And what about almost all varnams? Almost all of them are shringAra themed. Actually in the SSP it is said the varnam rUpamu juchi is MD's composition. Some say it was his father, Ramaswamy Dikshitar.

[bhakthim dehi]

If the vak-geya-karars held in veneration by CM community, have eschewed that theme, I am not far wrong in detesting the theme. likewise. I will be in good company.

You are definitely wrong in detesting srungara rasam. A poet is to be at ease in all the rasas. Contrarily, a poet can be revered only if he excels in all the rasas.

An introspection into your posts reveal two things:
1. You have a high degree of aversion towards srungaram and
2. You are not much acquainted with Bhakthi cult.
Whereas the first one is definitely personal, I like to address the second issue, as your posts if left unanswered might misguide the inclined.

stuff is not found in either Divya Prabandham

I hope you are totally unaware of the "madal" written by Thirumangai Azvar. It is an ancient practice wherein the rejected lover sings about his love to get back his good days with the lover. Azvar imagine himself as a lady and pines about his lover Narayana and longs for a divine unison. These poems are full of srungara rasa.

What do you understand by the word 'nappinai kongai mel vaithu kidandha malar maarba vaai thiravaai'. Will you not classify this as sringara rasa ? This was written by a female poet, Andaal !!

According to Indian Bakthi tradition, the greatest evil is lust. even worse than greed and pride.

Going by this, the Saints revered by you should have detested Gruhastashrama.
In reality, many took Sanyasa only after going through the phase of gruhastashrama. Sastras even prescribe the ideal days for experiencing srungara practically. Our dharma insist us to avoid lust, but never preach to avoid the normal relationship.

titillating trash, we get plenty in Devi Bagavatham.

You have left all the ideologies and theological values conveyed in the text you mentioned and quote this small segment as example without understanding the true meaning. This is indeed a sacrilege. There is no point in keeping these Saints at high pedestal without even understanding the tradition that they followed. Only a swan can separate water from milk, but not a hen is proved.

So are quite a few by MD

'sarasa sangita sahitya sthana dvayaya', 'komala tara pada yugale guccha jaya sthana yugale' - all are taken from the kritis of Sri Muthuswamy Dikshitar. You can search for the translation by yourself. If this is not sufficient, I can quote from the kritis of Syama Sastri too. Certainly, they do not appear erotic to me. I quote them as I want to show erotic words are seen in plenty in any of the compositions of great composers.

just waiting, for a few songs explicitly erotic, by pre-Trinity the Trinity and their contemporaries. to correct my assertion.

If you are aware of Melattur Venkataramana Sastri, you would have not said this. If you are unaware, just do a Google check. Whereas his Prahlada caritramu is totally devotional, his Usha parinayamu is extremely erotic. If possible, try to get a translation of the daru-s and sloka-s wherein he describes Usha and her encounter with Aniruddha. I hope I will get a blasphemous statement about Bhagavatam too once you do this.

The songs in Nauka Charithram opera by Thyagaraja are explicitly erotic and vulgar in theme

Your unfamiliarity with the medieval texts is reflected in this statement. Many of the descriptions given in Nauka caritram can be seen in Bengal and Marati versions of Nauka Caritram. However, Nauka caritramu are not as explicit as Gita Govindam. The swan and hen example goes with this too.

Are these being sung in concerts by any artiste?

What relevance does this statement have? Artist singing these compositions will change the lyrics?

Can we surmise that the set is spurious?

Again you are not aware about the works by the direct disciples of Svamigal. Valajapet Sri Venkataramana Bhagavatar has written a sloka wherein he mentions the two operas composed by his Guru. You and me are great authorities than Venkataramana Bhagavatar?

rA rA seeta ramani manOhara can be both vAtsalya Or shringAra bhAva too

Go through this kriti. You want to brand this as spurious. Then what about 'nee muddu momu' and 'endhu kowgilindhura'?

It is better to accept these compositions as it is believing blindly that these Saints will not even think of derailing from the track of dharma, rather than seeing with our tainted lens.

[RSR]

@344
@SrinathK
1) My question was pointed and precise. but you are bringing in all sorts of pedantic and presumptuous , preposterous and personal remarks. I should strongly register my objection and refrain from replying in kind. That would be demeaning.

2) CM begins with Purandaradasa . Jayadeva lived 300 years before Purandaradasa. .
and his poems were set to music much later.

3) Almost all the saint-poets were Vaishnavites and Krushna devotees. But which Krushna? The charming Balakrushnan and later the Gita-Acharyan. That is why I wanted to know if there are daasa saahithyams of erotic theme. Not likely.

4)"

As a teacher, Tyagaraja was said to be very strict, often harsh, with his pupils. He would insist on the right rendering of his songs. He would also not tolerate his pupils singing light hearted amorous songs such as Javalis, which were popular at that time. ]

https://sreenivasaraos.com/category/tyagaraja/
(see 14-4)

5)

Today, the ashtapadis are sung in a variety of tunes and the list below is just a sample of some of the raga scales used. The original tunes of the ashtapadis are unknown and likely lost in history

6) If SSP is so very authoritative, and comprehensive, ( I have read fully, the sketch of composers and musicians given there), there is no mention about Annamacharya. Even with regard to other composers, information is very scanty.

7) After all, he lived and created his book in the closing decades of 1890 -1900. and was a court musician. and we know that it was the court-music stuff that promotes dance and amorous themes and treatment. That applies to Swathi ThirunaaL also.

8) The Gita and Gospel according to St.Mathew are considered to be the greatest works. and there is no place for frivolous and silly interpolations there.

9) Though I am unable to locate right now, I have read that the Nouka stuff was NOT from either Kannada or Marathi sampradhayam.

10) Scholars specializing in the authentic history of Thyagaraja krithis may contribute their clarification.

In closing, I would like to mention that Rajaji totally rejected the idea that ' Naachiyaar Thiru mozhi', so full of erotic stuff, could have been written by ANDAL of exquisite Thiruppaavai.
Likewise, when there are 700 compositions of Thyagaraja Swami and there are only, 21 songs in the 'boat-song', ( I went through the translations of those songs in
http://translationsofsomesongsofcarntic ... araja.html
There is no continuity at all. It would make some sense, if the boy Krushna was the subject of 'naughty and bawdy' gopis. For, in one of these poems, the boy is said to escape and sit in the lap of his mother. !
it is justifiable to reject that these were the creations of THYAGARAJA.
Enough of this waste of time., in making people understand the difference between mystic affection and lust.

[RSR]

@345
The Swan is supposed to have the sense to separate the milk from water.
I do.

Sanyasin-composers of CM, were not gruhathaas. ( Sadasivam, NaarayaNa theertha, Venkata kavi, Ramadasu who spent more than a decade in jail, ). Purandaradasa and Kanakadasa were not house-holders after their enlightenment. Shyama Sastry was a devi-upasaka. As his creations are manageable, I will give more details soon after going through the translations.
If some songs are not sung in concerts, it means that it is not suitable for such audience. A question of delicacy.
The Boat Song seems to be a hot favourite of BN group. Not surprising.

[SrinathK]

Alright I will leave it here. I apologize if I crossed a line, and a 2 generation gap, and I could have been more respectful, but this had triggered memories of some things in the lives of some people close to me that I've had the misfortune to see - for which the root cause was puritanical brainwashing in one case and ultra modernity in another. This whole thing can sometimes go so far beyond music and scriptures. The whole attitude towards this subject in India by my elder generations has never failed to strike me as the ultimate discrepancy between words and actual behavior.

I for one am not going to get your aversion to this rasa even when it comes from revered personalities, or how you can dismiss anything, whether ragas, schools, talas, visuals, dance, compositions, even live concerts, as spurious or unnecessary just because it doesn't fit into your preferences. Ok, we all have our likes and dislikes. But when you would like even great mahanubhavas to fit into your ideas of who they ought to be rather than who they were, that was too extreme IMHO.

But ok, this is your way and your taste and I will accept you for who you are. Music is like a wish fulfilling tree, there is something for everyone.

But your approach will never work for me.

[RSR]

@bhakthim dehi

I do not claim to have read ALL the hymns in 'Nalaayira Divya Prabandaham'. but I have read the hymns of Paeyaazhvar, Poykai Aazhvar , Boothaththaazhvar, Periyaazhvar, Kulasekara Aazvvar, AndaaL and a few from Nammaazhvar. The latter aazhvars like Vipranarayana did not catch my fancy . Vishnuchittar( Periyaazhvaar) is venerated as the foremost. and quoted by Barathy.
You might have heard about the Five great 'kaappiyangaL' of KaLabra age. ( 200 AD- 600 AD) ( Silappathikaaram, MaNimekalai, Jeevaka Chintamani, VaLaiyapathi and Kundalakesi). Of these, SILAPPATHIKARAM has some absolutely ravishing poetry in Madurai Canto ( 'Aaychiyar Kuravai'). ( it is from that Smt.MS has sung the immortal 'vadavaraiyai' ragamalika'). The Aaychiyar kuravai is a dance number extolling the memory of Krishna in the banks of Yamuna.. Kindly read what the poet Ilango adikal says in the closing stanza. of Silambu.
MaNimekalai likewise is a Buddhist didactic work in virulent objection to the life of Madhavi and she becomes a lady-monk.
These two are still available.
The third 'Jeevaka Chinthamani' is full of 'love'(lust) sports . The author was a Jain and is said to have justified it saying that he wrote all that to expose the futility of such life.
The other two exist only in fragments and are of very ordinary themes of vengeance by a wife on her husband by killing him after throwing him down from a precipice!
And all of them were said to be by jains/ buddhists.
Aadi Sankara also was challenged how having taken to Sanyasam as a boy, he can know the fullness of life. I dont remember the sequel.
In Sangam literature, 'akam' genre songs are all about romance. but hardly of any physical description.
MutthoLLayiram with a commentary by TKC is a gem. Such a fine treatment of bond of romance- not at all religious in theme. but stately!
That is our literary and cultural tradition.
-----------------------------------------
Usha PatiNayam has nothing to do with CM.
My discussion is strictly about pre-trinity, Trinity and contemporaries.
------------------
By the way, I suppose you meant 'swan and duck' ( not hen).

[rajeshnat]

CM is always about aural experiences. We donot have visual interpretation yet. It is moot for us to even dig deep to find the presence or absence of eroticism in words when at the most it is just fleeting that gets more camouflaged by musical rasa .As long as there is no crass representation we just have to move on taking a bit of presence or absence of shringara rasa in stride. Great post srinathk.

[RSR]

@349
This being a forum for discussing aspects related to carnatic music ( ragam,layam,composers, musician, concert and recording reviews and such, it is not meant for personal reminiscences of any body's friends, their woes and joys. and the reasons thereof. The 'I' should be cut-off.
------------------------------------------
The creed for CM. ( never tire of reminding ) No apologies.

Classical music is essentially a matter of Ragam . Secondly of Layam or TaLam. and only finally on theme and Lyrics.

We can have exquisite carnatic music in Instrumental play as in Flute, VeeNa and Nagaswaram. No words but only Ragam and TaaLam.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rh-h73ItTTE/ ... titled.jpg
-------------
But human mind cannot remember a tune without words and it is better that such words are of a kind that diverts our attention from animal instincts towards spiritual ideals,
Carnatic music has always held that ideal.
We cannot have 'secular' music. and vulgar dance music masquerading as ' offering to deity'!
Carnatic music then is a means for getting freedom from the four evils of 'lust, hatred, avarice and attachment'
(kaamam, krodham, lobam, moham)
,through the medium of pure music with divinity-oriented lyrics.

[bhakthim dehi]

The Swan is supposed to have the sense to separate the milk from water.
I do.

You want me to believe even after reading your opinion on Devi Bhagavatam

Sanyasin-composers of CM, were not gruhathaas.

You can better read the life history of Narayana Teertha and Tyagarajar; both were gruhasthaa turned sanyasins. venkatakavi was a bachelor and not a sanyasi. If I am not wrong, Sadashiva Brahmendral too had a brief married life.

If some songs are not sung in concerts, it means that it is not suitable for such audience. A question of delicacy.

You can read the meaning of Begag javali 'samayamidhe ra ra' posted in the same forum.
There lies a difference with the kritis of Tyagarajar or Jayadeva. They all pine for the Lord; It esoterically mean 'divine unison'. Again, a tainted mind cannot appreciate.

If some songs are not sung in concerts, it means that it is not suitable for such audience. A question of delicacy.

BN group ?

and his poems were set to music much later.

They were tuned later since we have lost the original tunes. This happened with Annamacharya and Purandaradasar too. Yo will not call them as vaggeyakara? Anyhow, your opinion is immaterial.

I have read that the Nouka stuff was NOT from either Kannada or Marathi sampradhayam.

You better read the book on Nauika Caritramu by Dr Bhagavathi. Never ever give loose comments without having a sound backup.

I would like to mention that Rajaji totally rejected the idea that ' Naachiyaar Thiru mozhi', so full of erotic stuff, could have been written by ANDAL of exquisite Thiruppaavai.

This again reflects your lack of familiarity with Vaishnavite literature.

The line I quoted is from 'Thiruppavai' and not from Nachiyar Tirumozhi.

Rajaji is not an authority on Vaisnavite literature,though I respect him. You can read the commentary on Prabandas by Sri Periyavachan Pillai. I am much sure that this name will be pretty new for you. Go and search.

I never target personalities in my responses. But you forced me to do by your blasphemous comment on Devi Bhagavtam.

Dont ever call yourself as a follower of our dharma if you still hold the same view.

I would suggest you to learn languages like Sanskrit, Tamiz and Telugu to the level of understanding our scriptures. Read the commentaries, contemplate them. Then try to collate with the thoughts expressed by our composers.

[bhakthim dehi]

Usha PatiNayam has nothing to do with CM.
My discussion is strictly about pre-trinity, Trinity and contemporaries.

This shows your lack of acquaintance with pre-trinity composers and the contemporaries of Trinity. Melattur Venkatarama Sastri was a contemporary of Tyagarajar. Usha Parinayam has its roots in Bhagavatam and many poets from the period of Nayak dynasty has touched this theme. I am expecting a response from you that dance music cannot be equated with carnatic music

The latter aazhvars like Vipranarayana did not catch my fancy

I give least importance to individual choices.

there is no mention about Annamacharya. Even with regard to other composers, information is very scanty.

That is a proper research book and you will get perplexed if you expect fantasies. Being in an era when the publication field was in infancy, he was able to give humongous information about rare composers like Srinivasayya and ramananda Yati. This can be compared with individuals who are not even aware of common poems living in this era.

After all, he lived and created his book in the closing decades of 1890 -1900. and was a court musician. and we know that it was the court-music stuff that promotes dance and amorous themes and treatment. That applies to Swathi ThirunaaL also.

Another example to showcase your inadequacy in understanding our composers. Svati Tirunal never composed on humans. Anantapadmabha is the hero in all his padams.

Swan-hen can be applied here. You are unable to appreciate his effort to include the non - narastuti compositions and whining about the few dance compositions. Have you ever came across the kriti on Lord Krishna by Akkil Svamigal or a padam by Giriraja KAvi? You need to grow up to understand the work of Subbarama Dikshitar.

Swan - hen example is intentional as hen is worser than the duck.

[RSR]

@bakthim dehi

This thread is meant for Thyagaraja kritis. and my query about Nouka Charitham is relevant to this thread.
I am now going through Sri.V.Govindan's tamizh translation of Shyama Sastry songs. Have covered about ten songs. Sixty more to be done today in a blog post for quick reference. So far, I have not come across any mammal stuff .
I still stick to my opinion about devi bagavatham.
I am placing information collected in my website at
https://sites.google.com/site/4carnaticmusic
I am not interested in knowing about composers not mentioned there.
Nor am I interested in Vaishnava sampradhayam over much.
So be it. if you prefer hen to a duck. 'worser' is wrong. 'just worse'.
Leave me alone. Will you?


Stop personal remarks.

[RasikasModerator2]

Ok gentlemen, that will do. First of all this is a place to celebrate music and art forms, not to preach moral science from the so called high pulpit. All your opinions are your personal views and tastes, and differences are one thing. But this need to present your selective choices as gospel truth and throw mud on both our composers and each other is regrettable. Pretence of objectivity while airing all your subjective notions is dishonest. And If you all do not want a discussion to erupt over your preferred choice of words, it would be better to avoid fuelling a fire in the first place. This applies to all of you, whether young or old.

Also it would be better to refrain from passing verdicts on matters that one is not the expert in. You may not like it or be interested in it, but If you do make such statements someone else who does know better may be compelled to respond. And then it just goes downhill. So if we want to avoid that, all of you, kindly handle your differences with more sensitivity. Or be willing to discuss and accept.

With that it would be better to stick to topic without derailing the thread into other matters. Kindly continue the discussion on Thyagaraja more fruitfully without both further moralizing, ad hominem attacks and inflammatory remarks. Thank you.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

Tyagaraja - Saiva kritis (18)
Lyrics & Translation

https://shaivam.org/scripture/English-S ... iva-kritis

[RSR]

@35
One can see all my previous posts in this particular thread. Purely academic and attempted ragam analysis, and just information -oriented. I hope such an attempt, ( inspired by a Shidhganag dissertation) is any thing to be condemned.
As for the discussion on Boat Song, I am actually defending Sri.Thyagaraja by surmising that these could have been interpolations by others. ( have there not been many such discussed in this forum?) After all, such spurious kritis are not uncommon in Thyagaraja kritis and MD kritis. The theme and wordings are so much out of tune with all the other kritis of Thyagaraja. I will take back my observation, if scholars in this forum, cite instances of Thyagaraja kritis having the same theme and wordings from outside the Boat Song. I am basing myself on the translation of all the available kritis by Sri.V,Govindan. If such had been the response by the first and second , it would have been educative and proper. Even now, it is not too late.
I was astonished to read that the famous and lovely tune in VaraaLi in
http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html
is said to have improper overtones! ........ Blasphemy! Not me,Sirs!
(Ref: @344->

Then there's kana kana ruchira.

God!

[Pratyaksham Bala]

Utsava sampradAya kIrtanas of Thyagaraja
By M.M. Subramaniam and Prabhakar Chitrapu

At page 11 of -
Sri Thyagaraja Aradhana 2018
SRUTI Souvenir
http://www.sruti.org/library/Thyagaraja ... AS2018.pdf

[RSR]

@358
@Prathyaksham Bala
Thank you for sending the PDF.
I am familiar with a few Uthsava Sampradhaya songs of Thyagaraja.
The information has been available in wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _Tyagaraja
I think it is quite comprehensive and I remember to have posted about this wiki page in a general-discussion thread, some time back.
I went through the articles on Utsava Sampradaya kritis and also on Nouka Charithram. in Music adademy souvenir

It is clearly mentioned by Jackson ( page-23)that it is about child Krishna. and a group of naughty gopi-girls , may be slightly elder to the boy.
probably pre-adolescent.
I have read the translation of Sri.V.Govindan. ( the specific part that is out of sync is in song 14, ). Though it is similar to the story where boy krishna stole the clothes while the ladies were taking bath, it is jarring. I have read Bagavatham long back in English translation and have been very much moved by Kunti Devi's prayer ) .
I wanted a reference to improper' situations and descriptions by Thyagaraja Swami outside the Boat song.
Now that I am having the list of Utsava Sampradaya kritis, I will go through the translations by Sri.Govindan and shall give the summary in his own words in a web-page for that.
All the while, my interest has been on the music aspect and not on lyrics and meaning as Telugu is not my mother tongue.
Thank you .
Today, I created two pages in blogger
https://shyamasastrysongs.blogspot.com/ ... to-42.html
https://shyamasastrysongs.blogspot.com/ ... ge_14.html
I did not find a single instance of any improper description or wording.
How could it be ? as he was singing and imploring to his Mother.
---------------
In case you feel that I have missed the import of your indication, kindly send the opening line of the song. I can then get the wording and meaning from Sri.V.Govindan's blog.
Thank you.

[SrinathK]

Since you find the Bhagavatam surprising, one thing to note there is that Krishna is a complete foil to Rama. If Rama lived by the book, Krishna exists only to remind us that no book is bigger than the one who wrote it. In Krishnavatara, all the rules are broken. In Rama, shringAra exists only as passive charm. In Krishna, it is an adventure. Rama is straightforward, Krishna cunning. Rama does not know who He is and acts like a principled man. Krishna knows and acts as a law unto Himself.

Pure emotion, or rasa does not know morality. It is actually madness. I know that sounds shocking, but that is true. It is only the awareness side that stops the emotional side from causing a chaotic mess. Otherwise rasa was never logical. While publicly all keep it hidden for privacy and social stability, these rasas are a reality inside every one. And in art and spirituality they find expression in ways that cannot cause problems.

The law book is made by the logical dimension of life, not the artistic. But Art always flows through and beyond paradigms. The Divine is the same, makes the rules and breaks them too.

There is a section of society who finds vAtsalya and sakhya rasa blasphemy - they want their ultimate being to be an overlord that they fear. There are those who find deity worship or even the concept of God in form disgusting - their logical ideas of infinity are limited to formlessness. I am sure kaNNappa nAyanmar considering what all he did would have shocked the orthodoxy. These days if we try to talk of divinity as a man, I am sure a lot of people will get offended by that also. Fortunately we are prepared.

And on it goes... this debate is no different. Everyone wants the truth to be the way they feel. And yet again and again divinity (and art) proves itself to be beyond the reach of the mind and intelligence, befuddling those who try to frame it.

Everything Krishna did is impossible for anyone else - this is why he alone is the subject of shringAra and the hero of all rasa. It takes the whole sarva dharman parityajya mAm ekam sharanam vraja to a whole other level. What is proper or improper after that may be left to the wisdom of the Creator present within and not our ideas of what that truth should be like. For that you would need to come to Skanda 11 of the Bhagavata. Some people have attained that surrender through jnAnA, some attained through yoga, and the gopis have attained through shringAra. Only Krishna opens up this possibility.

Most devotees and enlightened masters were considered outlaws to the society of their times in their own ways. That is why so many people tried to kill them.

I wonder if you have forgotten your favourite Meera bhajans by your favourite singer "vish kA pyaala rANAji ne bhEja, pibata meera hAsi re pag ghunghuroo rE" - I think you have not yet seen all of Meera's lyrics. Perhaps that is why they were outraged by her.

The point is this -- Therefore the mood of compositions on Rama will be different from those of Krishna and the songs on Krishna will be different in character from those on Vishnu. The mood of sAdinchanE for e.g. is different from the other pancharatnams. There are other songs also, like jutA murArE, written in nAyikA bhAva.

With this piece of harikatha, I am done arguing with you. Back to Thyagaraja. We have the statement of Walajapet Venkataramana Bhagavatar who stayed with his guru for decades about what Thyagaraja has composed (and we know now which tunes sung today aren't his either). He has clearly stated his guru has composed 2 operas - Prahlada Bhakti Vijayam and Nauka Charitram. We do not need more proof than that, nor can greater proof be furnished.

Now if you do not prefer the theme of the boat epic, you are most welcome to skip it. We don't mind. Most of the CM world I believe also thinks similarly at least in public performance, although unlike you, they do not want to admit it. That is why they are rarely sung in concerts. But any other proof you want is entirely to satisfy your own mind and any conclusions you make out of it are your own opinions only. You can't say that the proof means it should fit into your stated conditions. We can't accept that as truth. Proof is what we have and you may accept it, or don't.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

.
https://saranaagathi.com/2008/01/31/tex ... -uploaded/

This gives links to two pdf files –
1. Tyagaraja Utsava Kirtanas in Telugu with notations.
2. Tyagaraja Kritis Collection in Telugu

[RSR]

@360
Ancient lore of India have been Valmiki RamayaNam and Mahabaratham only. ( we have to go back to at least 600 BC. ( pre-Buddhist). As for VishNu, I think it is Vishnupuranam. ( said to have been written around 300 AD). Unlike Valmiki Ramayanam, the Mahabaratha has had a number of additions and recentions. As Jawaharlal correctly observes in his chapters on Upanishads, the Epics and Gita, in his Discovery Of India, the Gita has been the guide to life. Both RamayaNam and Gita reject absolute non-violence as preached by Jainism Buddhism and the Gospel according to St.Mathew. Lokamanya Tilak ( Gita Rahasya) and Aurbinda Ghosh taught us that Kshathriya Dharmam is not-sinful as a true warrior resorts to violence NOT for his personal ends but for rooting out the oppressors. of common people. Surprisingly, Jawaharlal ( my only guide) has written beautifully both on saints like St.Francis of Assissi and of the Jesuists!
Bankim's Vandemaatharam is Mother-worship. and Shyama Sastry songs are in the same tradition.
Thyagarajas swami 's creations are musical offerings on Ramayanam theme.
Actually we do not know who wrote Bagavatham. but there are so many charming episodes in Bagavatham ( I do not think, these are covered in Mahabaratha..I may be wrong, ) all about the childhood exploits of Balakrishna. The tradition followed by Marathi bakthi poets, Uduppi and Guruvatyoor do not give much focus on the Rasaleela . Generally, the stories like lifting Govardhana giri, dancing on kaliaya, and such are given more importance. Silappathikaram also treats the theme with least coarseness.
-------------------------------------------------------
For our national leaders all through, Gita has been the guide to life. either through Bakthi Yogam, Gnana Yogam, Karma Yogam and Sankya Yogam. Rarely through Raja yogam (Hata yogam). I follow Vinoba Bhave's famous discourses on Gita. mostly based on the Marathi tradition of Baktha Vijayam. The Ramakrishna Mission volunteers are following the path shown by Paramahamsa and Vivekananda.
Thyagaraja Swami lived a very long life and it is mentioned, that he had about 30 and more disciples. In this thread itself, there are posts about 'newly discovered', kritis from the same Sourashtra Saba library.
but rejected by famous scholars in this thread. I will give the post numbers soon. All that we have to do is to go through all the earlier posts in this thread to doubt the authenticity of all the songs that go by the name of Thyagaraja kriti. Most of the direct and indirect disciples composed in Telugu. and I remember that even a late 20th century musician created 'Thyagaraja kritis' and admitted to the fact. It requires great scholarship, dedication and time to remove any spurious additions.
There is no reference to Nauka Charithram in SSP
----------
When dealing with the description of women, the rule has been laid down by our great composers what to describe and what not to describe.. It is not against affection, matrimonial bond, romance but explicit use of words of carnal import. I wonder if I have made my meaning clear. This forum has mixed readership and I cannot say expatiate more .
Have we not read Kalki's immortal romances, Sivakaamiyin Sabadham, Ponniyin Selvan, Alai Osai? Has he ever used coarse description of women? Are not the great lady characters of Shakespeare's plays, great novelists like Scott, Dickens, Emile Bronte, Russian novelists like Tolstoy , Turgenev, Gogol, and Pastenak our guide ? Do we not find the difference when reading James Joyce and Emile Zola? The Lyricist /poet / writer has to appeal yo finer sentiments rather than carnal aspects. I hope that you understand Tamil. I would strongly recommend Janakiraman's 'Anbe aaramudhe' novel to understand my point. and the entire classics of Bankim, Tagore and of course the great Sarath Chandra. ( who has dealt with rather delicate themes in a dozen of his novels , all speaking for the cause of women... but of a different kind, Pather Dhapi, Charithra heen, Sesha Prasna, Dena Phona, Pahli Samaj, Parineetha, Srikantha, Nishkruthi) . What relevance do these have to Thyagaraja kritis?
They do. For the Trinity gave great respect to Women. bordering on Worship and the dance tradition does not.
There are two types of varnams. Shyama Sastry varnams were meant to be sung, not for dance.
It is also notable that most of the pada varnams are post-trinity.
The topic of boat song is closed for me also. with the submission that a few songs might have been inserted later. by one of his disciples. I am guided in this matter by your own posts.
( edited to remove reference to Narayaneeyam. ( being a condensed version of Bagavatha puranam), it also includes gopika incidents to some extent.

[RSR]

@SrinathK

And what about almost all varnams? Almost all of them are shringAra themed

Just last night I had very carefully read the tamil translations of Shyama Sastry songs -all the 71 and created a page for quick reference in blogger.
There is absolutely no shringAra in any of his songs- certainly not in any of his famous varNams.
'

[Pratyaksham Bala]

.
Tyagaraja kritis—some misinterpretations
By R. Vedavalli

"It is important to understand that Tyagaraja lived a simple life and followed the bhagavata sampradaya. He did not possess occult powers nor did he perform miracles.

"Because of the nature of his compositions and his own personality, legends and anecdotes started growing around the songs.

"We must view Tyagaraja as a fine musician and as one who helped preserve and create ragas."

https://dhvaniohio.org/wp-content/uploa ... garaja.pdf

[SrinathK]

@SrinathK

And what about almost all varnams? Almost all of them are shringAra themed

Just last night I had very carefully read the tamil translations of Shyama Sastry songs -all the 71 and created a page for quick reference in blogger.
There is absolutely no shringAra in any of his songs- certainly not in any of his famous varNams.
'

Obviously. dEvi is like that.

[RSR]

@364
-----------------------------------------------
https://sites.google.com/site/4carnatic ... thyagaraja

I have given the BEST biographical outline and Thyagarajaswami;s music at the above page in my website.

Hoping that it will be useful.
-----------------------------
Where can I get Prof.V.RAGAVAN;'S book on Thyagaraja swami and also that of Prof.Samnamurthy, free on line?

[RSR]

removed the link to english translation of narayaneeyam.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

Mods:
Post #367 may be moved to the thread 'Narayaneeyam' - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=9792&p=124319&hili ... am#p124319

[RSR]

https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli ... e_djvu.txt
(Full text of "Tyagaraja Life And Lyrics" --WILLIAM J.JACKSON
--------------------------------------------
Unique among the books on Thyagaraja, I found this book ,valuable in its treatment of economic, political and social conditions prevailing in Thyagaraja Swami's area in Tanjore delto during his lifetime.
And quite a few translations of Thyagaraja kritis that are in common vogue.
------------
earlier discussion
viewtopic.php?t=16053

[RSR]

In continuation of @366
It is just possible that the Boat Song series was the creation of his prime disciple. (Walajapet) ( a careful word by word reading of the blog of SSRao with an open mind, gives that impression to me). It may be checked up if the Boat song series are mentioned and treated in the other two schools , which have been discussed earlier in this thread. ( Thillaisthaanam and Umayalpuram)
Kindly go through ssrao's writeup on Venkataramana Bagavathar's musical creations.

https://sreenivasaraos.com/2015/02/22/s ... iii-music/
24-2
===
"Sri Venkataramana Bhagavatar was a reputed musician and a composer in his own right. His output, in Sanskrit and Telugu, was not only prolific but was also varied. Besides the well known Ragas, he was adept in handling rare Ragas like: Saraswathi, Kamala-manohari, Nama-narayani, Jyothi-svarupini and Suvarnangi.

It is said; more than about 15o of his compositions have been traced. Apart from Kritis, his works include Tana Varnams, Pada Varnams, Svarajatis, and Tillanas, cast in different moulds. Most of his compositions are in praise of Krishna, his chosen deity, and on his Guru Sri Tyagaraja"
"Venkataramana Bhagavatar was highly appreciated by the great
composer who is said to have bestowed on him his full blessing.

There is however another view whidi says that 'Nowkadiaritram' is
totally original creation of Tyagaraja, not derived from any other
source."^^ Actually it is said that tlie palm-leaf manuscript with
Sanskrit verses was the work of Venkataramana Bhagavatar himself
to add to the reputation of his Guru.")?)
page-37 of a shodhganga paper on disciples of Thyagaraja swami quoted by sreenivasarao.s

It was from the Walajapet collections – preserved at Sourashtra Sabha Museum- that the existence of three Geya-natakas (operas) – Prahlada Bhakti Vijayam; Nauka Charitram; and, Sitarama Vijayam – came to light . While the texts of the first two operas have been published, the text of Sita Rama Vijayam is yet to be traced fully.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

.
When this boat obsession will end ?

To summarise : The Member opines that the Nauka Charitram, ascribed to Tyagaraja, might have been written by someone else.

And this point of view is emphasized again and again and ... ... ...

It is time to move on.

[RSR]

@371

To summarise : The Member opines that the Nauka Charitram, ascribed to Tyagaraja, might have been written by someone else.

Till the requested references from other sources are given . Just because, it comes from Sourashtra museum, it cannot be taken as the work of Thyagaraja Swami. Assuming for a while that the boat song was created by Venkataramana Bagavathar, ( and mis-attributed to his Guru), it is very likely because Thyagaraja Swami is not credited with any songs in dance tradition but all his disciples specialized in that. Thyagaraja Swami had a revulsion for things like javali and tillanas. Second point is that Venkataramana Bagavathar was a Krishna baktha rather than a Rama Baktha.
The composers and performers of the three main disciples and also of manambuchavadi line are well known.
So, scholars just have to illuminate on this point that the boat song was really the creation of Thyagaraja Swami. and atleast a few fragments of the opera have been sung/used by writers / artistes of the other schools of Thyagaraja disciples.
Why stifle the discussion?

[RSR]

Happened to read the posts on Venkataramana Bagavathar
#17
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9269
Post by S.Govindaswamy » 22 May 2009, 06:41

When I visited Madurai recently I heard that the kritis of Thyagaraja in palm leaf manuscript form are preserved at Madurai Saurashtra Sabha. I also heard that some people are claiming that Venkataramana Bhagavathar was the Vaggeyakara whose kritis are wrongly attributed to Thyagaraja. I also understand that the people in charge in this sabha are doing pooja to these manuscripts but not allowing anybody access to these. How far are these true
Govindaswamy

[RSR]

Sanskrit Krithis of Saint Thyagaraja Compiled by P.R.Ramachander
http://translationsofsomesongsofcarntic ... araja.html

We have with us about 700 Krithis of Thyagaraja . Almost all of them are written in Telugu, which is the mother tougue of the saint . Only 40 of the available 675 Krithis have been written in Sanskrit . They are :-

1. Giriraja Sutha - Bangala
2. Janaki Ramana - Suddha Seemanthini
3. Sudha Madhurya - Sindhu Ramakriya
4. Naada Thanumanisam - Siddha Ranjani
5. Sri Raghuvara Suguna - Bhairavi
6. Samajavaragamana - Hindolam
7. Sri Narada Naadha - Kaanada
8. Mrudu Bhashana - Maruva Dhanyasi
9. Sujana Jeevana - Kamas
10.Sri Raghuvara - Kambhoji
11.Niravathi Sukadha - Ravichandrika
12.Sundaradara Deham - PanthuVarali
13.Devadhi Deva Sadasiva- Sindhu Ramakriya
14.Jagadhanandha - Naatai
15.Bale Balendhu - RithiGowla
16.Deva Sri Tapastirtha - Madhyamavathi
17.Mahitha Pravrutha - Kambhoji
18.Sambho Mahadeva - PanthuVarali
19.Ehi Trijagadeesa - Saranga
20.Sive Pahimam - Kalyani
21.Eesha Pahimam - Kalyani
22,Namo namo Raghavaya anisam - DEsiya Thodi
23,THva dasoham -Punnagavaralu
24.Manasa sanchara re –Punnaga varali
25.Dheena janavana sri Rama -Bhoopalam
26.Pahi pahi dheena bandho -SAurashtram
27.Bhaja Ramam sathatham -Huseni
28.Sundara Dasaratha Nandana -kapi
29.Rama yeva daivatham -Balahamsa
30.Paripalaya Dasarathe –Sankara bharanam
31.Sri Raghu vara Dasarathe -SAnkarabharana,
32.Pahi Ramachandra Palitha-Sankarabharanam
33.Gatha mohasritha - SAnkarabharanam
34.Vara leelaa , ghaana leela SAnkarabharanam
35.Sri Rama Rama jagathaa -Poorna chandrika
36.Palaya Sri Raghu veera –Deva gandhari
37.Pahi paramathma sathatham - varali
38.Pahi Rama dhootha Jagatprana-Vasantha Varali
39.Jaya Mangalam Nithya Shubha mangalam-Gantaa
40.Ksheera sagara vihara -Ananda BHairavi

[RSR]

A very fine post in Dr.Pasupathy's blog
https://s-pasupathy.blogspot.com/2017/01/106.html
Sri.C.R.Srinivasa Iengar writes about the way in which we should approach and understand Thyagaraja Swami's kritis.
Fairly lengthy article and in Tamizh.