Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Carnatic composers (other than performing vidwans)
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cmlover
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#176 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover » 26 May 2011, 00:25

I wish to draw atttention to an earlier discussion herein
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=997- ... kirna.html
The suggestion by vasya10, I quote
Re: Etymology for "sankIrna"isnt it a coincidence that by katayapadi scheme, khaNDa is 5 (kha =2 + Da=3 implies 2+3=5)... ? So does miSra -- ma = 5 + ra = 2 (5+2) = 7 ?

but of course, it doesnt work for sankirNa (which would be 7+1+[0 or 9], depending on the scheme).
is interesting.
Accordingly I wonder whether the original terminology was sankhIrNa which got corrupted!

Again, since the sUladi talas refer to Purandara dasa I wonder whether there is a record of his composition in sankirna which our kannada friends can explore....
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hamsaa
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#177 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa » 26 May 2011, 08:20

Shri Akella seems to be contradicting himself from thead to thead, post to post and his argument does not seem to be convincing for any student of science, logic or music.


1. It is completely wrong to unilaterally declare that 9 is not convenient to use just because some composers have not used it. This is known as retrospective justification. But even here, his posts in other threads contradict what he is saying here. How did he himself think that Sankeerna was good enough to give prastara in the other thread (http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1879) - post no. 1

2. There has been no practical, scientific or mathematical reason given as to why 9 is inconvenient. If talas with 128 counts like Simhanandanam were handled by musicians (prastara or not), how can a puny number like 9 be difficult?

3. Arunagirinathar never needed to give tala! The meter of the song is so obvious even to primary school children who can add up syllables and count them.

4. It is highly presumptuous to state that all musicians do not have the knowledge of prastara.

5. Last but not the least, in what way are prastara of angas like laghu relevant to any compositions? It is just good as an exercise for students, esp those interested in math or theory. It has had nothing to do with concert music or compositions of even the Trinity!!!
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msakella
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#178 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella » 26 May 2011, 12:57

Chi. hamsa dear, In general, praising a person will not help in bringing out the hidden talents of a person but criticising helps a lot. In the same manner your critical post only makes me bring out more of my abilities to the readers. Thus, in one way I also feel thankful to you.
1. It is completely wrong to unilaterally declare that 9 is not convenient to use just because some composers have not used it. This is known as retrospective justification. But even here, his posts in other threads contradict what he is saying here. How did he himself think that Sankeerna was good enough to give prastara in the other thread (http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1879) - post no. 1
As a senior student of music I very well know that, excepting just one or two, all other composers have very conveniently avoided Sankeernam-9 either as a Jaati or even Gati while composing their compositions. Of course, basing upon what justification they all did so I do not know. Even without taking any time to go through my posts like you did, I can, now and here, tell that I did nowhere tell in any of my posts in ‘rasikas.org’ that one particular figure is good for Prastara and that another figure is not good for Prastara. I shall be thankful if you prove it. As Prastara is of mathematics nobody can avoid a particular number in the process of General-permutaion. If it is required anybody can avoid any number in Devoid-permutation. Do you know the deference between the General-permutation and Devoid-permutation. Can you demonstrate it, dear?
2. There has been no practical, scientific or mathematical reason given as to why 9 is inconvenient. If talas with 128 counts like Simhanandanam were handled by musicians (prastara or not), how can a puny number like 9 be difficult?
I do not know the individual views of the listerners, but the maximum number of listeners cannot relish at all Sankeernam-9 either as Jaati or as Gati like they do in respect of Chaturashram-4 or Trisram-3. My dear hamsa, you are a kid and you better know that even the handful of musicians have demonstrated their Shimhanandanam applying Chaturashra-jaati only arriving at the total of 128 Kriyas but none of them demonstrated it applying the puny(not very impressive)-sankeerna-jaati arriving at the total 283 Kriyas.
3. Arunagirinathar never needed to give tala! The meter of the song is so obvious even to primary school children who can add up syllables and count them.
If Arunagirinathat never needed to give the names of the Talas how come Shri S.R. Janakiraman furnished the names of 11 Talas of him, 1.Kaitala-tiraikani 2.Parimalagalabha 3.Kaadi-modi 4.Iyalishai 5. Orupoyudu irucharanam 6.Nilayaadi-samudramaana 7.Shinattavar-mudikum 8.Tirunala-maruvi 9.Kaaranamadaaga 10.Shivanaar-manam and 11.Kandar-aandaadi along with his own created-tala, Shanmukha (unfortunately even without any serial number at all) carrying 56 Kriyas (of course, not Aksharas at all as mentioned by him) in pages 356 to 359 of his Sangita Shastra Saaramu-Part-1.
4. It is highly presumptuous to state that all musicians do not have the knowledge of prastara.
Yes, by the grace of the Almighty, I declare that I am the sole authority on Talaprastara of our music on the globe and if any other person properly and correctly answers my questions pertaining to this topic in a public meeting (time and place of such meeting will be fixed and notified if needed) I shall pay him ten lakhs of rupees on the condition that he/she must pay me five lakhs of rupees if he/she cannot do so.

Even in this post I reiterate to ask you why none of the stalwarts or the great authors of all the treatises, till now, had ever solved this element and brought out all the latent secrets of it within the reach of our aspirants since 12th century, if it is nothing but permutation as you already wrote?
5. Last but not the least, in what way are prastara of angas like laghu relevant to any compositions? It is just good as an exercise for students, esp those interested in math or theory. It has had nothing to do with concert music or compositions of even the Trinity!!!
In the absence of the knowledge of Talaprastara you are also talking just like other non-knowledgeable teachers, professors and other musicians which, of course, I do not and need not mind. You better study and learn Talaprastara and come to me to get the answers of your irrelevant and foolish questions.

If you want to support a particular person you can do so as you like. But, in that process, it is not netiquette to criticise others taking advantage of the anonymity and even without any base. amsharma
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chitravina ravikiran
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#179 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran » 26 May 2011, 14:41

Dear Akella garu,

Since you are very senior, I don't want to belabour the same points or attempt to change your views! We have both made our points which should make our respective stances clear to all! I will just point out 3 things for the benefit of rasikas:

1. Sankeerna Mathyam is not Sankeerna jati or gati. It just has 2 laghus of Sankeernam but add the dhrtam and the tala count is 20. So, I think the whole discussion about Sankeerna as a jati and gati, its religious/metaphysical or other qualifications is out of context here.

2. We have about 1300 plus of Arunagirinathar's tiruppugazh and most of them are in different meters. So, 11 talas will be nowhere sufficient to classify them. I have learnt several tuned by the great Kancheepuram Naina Pillai from my guru Brindamma. I have also learnt a few tuned by Shri Chittoor Subramaniam Pillai and others. Moreover, I have myself set to music a few of these including verses in Sankeerna based meters.

3. But the main issue is not so much about Sankeernam. It is the fact that high-quality artistes existed who relished complex talas and other rhythmic aspects then. If things got watered down later, it is no reflection on the earlier set of legends. One cannot say that people don't relish them and make it appear that it is the tala's or jati's fault.

Finally, the question of Sankeerna was brought in post #1 only to 'establish that 'OVK could not have been an earlier era composer because the jati was not there till recently. References prove that the jati existed even before 1700s.

So, probably we can all give this thread a well deserved rest?!
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sr_iyer
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#180 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by sr_iyer » 26 May 2011, 15:09

Shri Ravikiran,

Just a minor clarification.
1. Sankeerna Mathyam is not Sankeerna jati or gati. It just has 2 laghus of Sankeernam but add the dhrtam and the tala count is 20.
The tALa you have described above, and referred to as Sankeerna Mathyam, _is_ sankIrNa jAti maThyam. The jAti qualifier is for the laghu count as per standard nomenclature. Apologies if I state the obvious.
Last edited by sr_iyer on 27 May 2011, 17:01, edited 1 time in total.
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chitravina ravikiran
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#181 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran » 26 May 2011, 19:00

Shri Iyer,

You are absolutely correct to say that it is Sankeerna jati mathyam. But my point was that except for Mishra Roopakam, Khanda Triputa and Sankeerna Ekam, the tala counts are not 9 (and only Mishra Atam has 18 units, a multiple of 9). Sankeerna Mathyam has 2 laghus of Sankeerna but the tala is khanda swaroopa (20 counts). I was making this point as a response to certain posts which seemed to suggest that 9 should be avoided. This was further supplemented by another point that people do not relish 9.

I don't subscribe to either of these views at all - I think each jati brings beauty to our great system and people will relish the more they hear good renditions of sankeernam. However, I merely pointed out that even by this line of argument, we are barking up the wrong tree since the discussion veered around Sankeerna mathyam!
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sr_iyer
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#182 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by sr_iyer » 26 May 2011, 19:31

Shri Ravikiran,

Thanks for your response, and apologies if I stated the obvious :) Reading your post, I did guess that you might have intended the total kriyA count as the purport of your statement, and thought I would just clarify on the standard usage of the term jAti.
Last edited by sr_iyer on 27 May 2011, 17:02, edited 2 times in total.
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msakella
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#183 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella » 27 May 2011, 15:58

Chi. Ravikiran dear,

Funnily, you first wrote ‘Sankeerna Mathyam is not Sankeerna jati or gati’ and contradicting it you again wrote ‘It just has 2 laghus of Sankeernam but add the Drutam and the tala count is 20’. I am unable to follow you.

I know Tamil very little and also I cannot read it well. I have not learnt even a single composition of Arunagirinathar. Having gone through the details of 11 new Talas furnished by Shri S.R.Janakiraman in his Sangita Shastra Saaramu (Telugu) I have found them as the Talas which should not be rendered like the Sharabhanandana-tala, said to have been created by Shyama Shastry for the purpose of singing it in a competition to save the prestige of the kingdom, as per the history. As all these rhythmical forms do not fit in the terms and conditions of the Taladasha-pranas they come under the category ‘the rhythmical-forms which should not be rendered and called as Talas at all’. In the absence of the proper knowledge of Taladasha-pranas many artists, however great they may be, may have composed compositions and named the talas and also sung in their concerts. But, merely by doing so, these new rhythmical forms can never be treated on par with other Talas which very strictly fit in the terms and contions of the Taladasha-pranas and abundantly relish the listeners? If his compositions are so great why full-length concerts are not being arranged singing only his compositions right from the beginning to the end?

There is another important point at this juncture. While Shyama Shastry have created only one such rhythmical form, Sharabhanandanam which do not fit in the prevailing terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas Arunagirinathar introduced the prosody of Sanskrit into Tamil and composed some songs in that Chando-roopas which do not fit in the prevailing terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas. More over, while Sharabhanandanam will not, in general, be utilised by anybody due to its emplexity, the musicians, who did not have the required awareness of the terms and conditions of the Taladasha-pranas, are the sole cause to set the names of ragas and talas for the Chando-roopas of Arunagirinathar and sing them in their concerts.

In particular, these rhythmical forms are violating two terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas and they are (1) an Anga of any Tala should not differ in its value in terms of its Jaati irrespective of its usage in number of times in the same Tala. To make it more clear, for example, among the two Laghus of Ata-tala, both Laghus must be of the same Jaati but not of different Jaatis and (2) the combinations of one or more Angas like Laghu-virama or Laghu-druta or Laghu-druta-virama which are called Samyukthaangaas as per Prastara should not be rendered at all as they have to be rendered using more beats to a single Anga. But, either in Sharabhanandanam of Shyama Shastry or in any other chando-roopa of Arunagirinathar these two conditions have wantonly been violated even in the absence of the knowledge of Talaprastara. Instead of being ideal to all others in following the already laid terms and conditions of Tala it is a pity that even such stalwarts stooped down in violating the terms and conditions of Tala.

In our Karnatka music all the rhythmical aspects have been brought under the Taladasha-pranas and a number of great compositions of all times, very strictly adhering to the terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas, came out of all the saint-composers like Jayadeva, Narayanateertha, Sadashivabhrahmendra, Purandaradasa, Annamacharya, Ramadasa and Thyagaraja on their own by the grace of the Almighty. None of them sat at a place and write all these compositions. But, later, the things started to water down by certain lateral composers who sat at a place and composed their compositions even violating the logical terms and conditions only to make a show. That is the pity of our great tradition and people. amsharma
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davalangi
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#184 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by davalangi » 28 May 2011, 04:33

msakella wrote: Having gone through the details of 11 new Talas furnished by Shri S.R.Janakiraman in his Sangita Shastra Saaramu (Telugu)
amsharma
Just wanted to clarify that the "names furnished in the book" are not Tala names but compositions of Arunagirinathar. Shri.SRJ lists the compositions as examples to illustrate some of the chandas' employed by Arunagirinathar. However, he has used names like Surya, Shanmukha, Shubha etc. purely for the sake of nomenclature in accordance with the katapayadi scheme. He seems to clearly mention that in most of the examples cited, the chandas of the composition does not fit any “known” tala structure.
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msakella
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#185 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella » 28 May 2011, 07:13

Dear Devalangi, Thank you very much for your kind clarification. All these names are in Tamil-language and in the absence of the proper knowledge in Tamil I took them for Tala-names. amsharma
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cmlover
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#186 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover » 28 May 2011, 07:32

In continuation may I also point out that the names of the talas khanda/misra/sankirna/ etc., were retrofitted and were not part of the vocabulary of AN. On the otherhand I presume the talas in OVK are original and not of later origin. May I also point out that AN has stuck to the hoary Tamil grammar ('yAppilakkaNam') for his compositions and not borrowed anything from sanskrit chandas. Of course he has used somewhat sanskritized Tamil, nor was he a sanskrit scholar to have composed any in sanskrit again unlike OVK who is a versatile scholar in both the languages. Since Sarmaji does not read Tamil and has no firsthand knowledge of AN compositions he should refrain from commenting on his works based on second hand information. AN's thiruppugazh is considered divinely inspired and is held in high regard by the Tamil community as much as the compositions of the Trinity. The attempt to tune them which were of the old bhajana style into classical CM ragas/talas is a commendable effort in progress and apparently if it leads to new develpments in laya we should all welcome those efforts as enriching our knowledge base in carnatic Music.
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msakella
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#187 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella » 28 May 2011, 08:58

Dear brother-member, cmlover, Being an Indian I also feel proud of all our great composers inrrespective of my knowledge in that respective language. Yes, my knowledge of Tamil language is very limited but I like it very much. That is why while I know just one or two words of Kannada I can very well manage with Tamil far better than Kannada. Here, I am not talking about any language but Tala. Please mind it. I need not have any objection if you call the meters of the compositions of Arunagirinathar or any other composer for that matter Chando-roopas or rhythmical-forms. But if you call them Talas they must fit in the terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas. Being a knowledgeable person of Taladasha-pranas I feel it as my duty in maintaining certain disciplines and I shall certainly point out if any kind of violation of them is made by anybody. I do not think that violation of the established principles cannot be called enriching the knowledge.amsharma
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chitravina ravikiran
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#188 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran » 28 May 2011, 14:25

Dear Akella garu,
But if you call them Talas they must fit in the terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas.
Please refer to our earlier discussion on the same subject. You also agreed with me that dasha pranas came much later than tala - as a fundamental concept. Dasha pranas are nothing more than a classification of some of the attributes of tala, for people to understand laya better. One cannot say that the attributes are more important than the concept. Tala is a fundamental entity and is definitely independant of dasha pranas. While many dasha prana concepts are brilliant in their own way, several of them are far removed from practice - for most composers, concert artistes, general students or rasikas.

Practice comes first - theory has to keep pace. If theory has not kept pace to fit in Arunagirinathar's rhythms, new books on theory have to be written, since he was no ordinary person but a divinely inspired composer, whose works are venerated even by non-Indians. Same goes for ragas and talas or jatis that we may not find in 2nd century or even 15th century works. These books were good for a given era in a particular context. If music developed much more later on with inputs from Shyama Shastri, OVK or Arunagirinathar level of geniuses, the responsibility is on the theoreticians to adapt, factor these developments in and write new books that give a better picture of our great system.

One cannot sit back and say 'These are dilution because so and so did not talk about it 1000 years back'. That will drag our music back a few centuries. Similarly, one cannot say 'these are not desirable because so and so did not compose in this style.' That would be a highly subjective and narrow view to adopt, which will force people into typesetting greatness and fitting it into a match box. Our system is far bigger than a few books. After all the books were written by human beings with varying degrees of capacities and understanding of music. It is not even known how many of these authors we quote today were acknowledged masters of practical music in their times. So, while one appreciates their efforts, one need not give the books biblical importance and try to see if every subsequent genius fitted into a particular square like tala dasha prana, which was drawn in an era when music was still developing.

I agree that we have to make sure that nothing cheap is being brought into our music. But Sankeernam, gati bhedams or what some may feel 'unrelishable' or 'complex' talas are not cheap/escapist practices. They demand a high degree of skill and masters have proved that rakti, bhakti and bhava can still be present, with practice. I am sure that everyone will agree that this is what matters at the end of the day. As Tyagaraja and OVK have themselves shown, we have to salute all true great masters who have made our music what it is today - a world renowned system known for its sophisticated melody and rhythmic content...

With regards...
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msakella
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#189 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella » 28 May 2011, 17:39

Chi. Ravikiran dear, I truly appreciate your views on many aspects, dear. But, in respect of some aspects, I sincerely feel that some rationale and discipline is essential in following the respective attributes to keep our art in tact, well-disciplined and ideal to all others to follow.

In my previous post I wrote that though Taladasha-pranas were a later development in making the respective displines into 10 divisions all these elements have already been funished in Sangita Ratnakara. The different kinds of elements are stipulated only to maintain some rationale and discipline in the usage of the things.

We all revere always all our great composers of all our Indian languages without any exception as they are great exponents in their own way composing everlasting compositions being great devotees of the Almighty. No Indian wants to belittle their sincere efforts and talents. For example, if we take the Great Arunagirinathar, he had composed many songs of his own talent and gave them to the posterity. He composed them in rare meters utilising different kinds of unit-groups in the process but did not give them names of Talas as they all are of different Chando-roopas. There is no fault of him. The fault lies only on our lateral musicians who used his songs in an indisciplined way utilising our Talangas carrying different varying units even in a single cycle of the rhythmical-form which will not fit in the discipline of our Tala. In which way it is indisciplined? I shall explain you. As per the discipline of our Anga any Anga, irrespective of its number of occurance in a single cycle of the rhythmical-form, must carry the same units wherever it occurs in the same cycle of the rhythmical-form. To make it more clear, for example, if there are three Laghus to be rendered in a single cycle of the rhythmical-form, each and every Laghu of them must carry the same unit-value of either 3 or 4 or 5 or 7 or 9 pertaining to Trisra or Chaturashra or Khanda or Mishra or Sankeerna-jaatis but not one Laghu of Trisra-jaati (3), another Laghu of Chaturashra-Jaati (4) and still another Laghu of Khanda-jaati (5). This happened in case of many rhythmical-forms used by our lateral musicians who, in turn, attribute this indiscipline to the poor Arunagirinathar. Would you like to support this indiscipline, dear?

Even in case of our Great Shyama Shastry, as per the history, when the Asthana-vidwans approached him and requested to save the prestige of the kingdom by defeating another Vidwan ‘Bobbili Kesavaiah’, he, in turn, brought out the Sharbhanandanam (Sharbham is higher even than Simham) against his Simhanandanam and defeated him and very well saved the presitige of the kingdom. Even though some tables of Prastara, said to have been written in his own hand-writing, are found in-correct, nobody (except myself) is aware of these in-corrections in those tables, which obviously reveal his lack of knowledge in Prastara (refer my book, Indian genius in Talaprastara-English). Only in the absence of the true knowledge of Prastara he ventured to exhibit it and to defeat the opponent only to save the prestige of others but not to make a show. Except this he did never do anything against our established disciplines. What is the indiscipline in redering this Sharabhanandanam? Let me explain you. In this rhythmical-form, apart from other general Talangas, Samyukthaangaas, which are written one above the other, Laghu-virama, Laghu-druta and Laghu-druta-virama occur thrice, twice and once respectively. In our music, according to the discipline of Anga, each and every Anga (except the Kakapada which is a soundless-anga) must start with a single sounded-beat followed by un-sounded gestures, if needed, for the remaining units of value. But, here, while one has to render Laghu-virama with two beats, Laghu-Druta also should be rendered with two beats and Laghu-druta-virama with three beats which is against the discipline of Anga. Thus, any rhythmical-form consisting of such Samyuktangaas should not be rendered at all.

Thus, I want to point out the deeds of indiscipline which hinder our disciplined development. amsharma
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vasanthakokilam
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#190 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam » 28 May 2011, 22:24

Fascinating stuff as usual. I think if we avoid value judgement words like 'Indicipline', 'for show', 'dilution', 'undesirables' etc. we can avoid distractions and focus on the scholarly matter which is what this discussion is.

Constraints define architectures. In that sense, I see where Akellaji comes from. The tala prasthara system is a rhythmic architecture. Even if one wants to step outside of something for aesthetic reasons, one need that 'something' to step outside of.

This brings up a couple of questions.

1) What are the musical significances of angas?

2) If someone wants to map Arunagirinatha's chanda-roopas to thalas, what are the options for the tune-setter?

I see the following possibilities.

Try to find a tala that maps to the chanda structure (along with that serial number Sri. Akellaji talks about)

What do we do for the ones that do not map to a tala serial number?

2 a) Take some artistic license and decide that it is OK to add a kArvai here, shorten a kArvai there to the chandas and map it to a tala serial number. Here the tune-setter's creativity and aesthetic sense is paramount. Not sure if Thiruppugazh community will go for this but may be they will if it satisfies the overall thiruppugazh aesthetics.

2 b) Do not call them talas or even chanda talas ( which is akellaji's major complaint ) but chanda-something. Akellaji seems to prefer chandra-roopas. Or, if there is a tamil word that stands for 'rhythmic structure', use it.
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cmlover
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#191 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover » 28 May 2011, 23:23

Sarmaji
Why is it so sacred to maintain the same jAti in all the laghus in a given tala?
Is there any rationale other than convention?
..and who made that convention? Sarngadeva?
Thiruppugazh talas do violate those conventions which is why they are called 'anga' talas.
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msakella
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#192 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella » 29 May 2011, 07:17

vasanthakokilam:

1.Just in which way the limbs (angas) of our body act as per the direction of the brain to keep our body running in a way it requires the Angas of the Tala also act as per the prescribed discipline of that particular rhythmical form to keep the music running in a way it requires.

2.Chando-roopas or prosodic-forms are innumerable rhythmical forms in which the total value of all
the different constituent Angas forms the cycle of that particular rhythmical form. Each and every rhythmical-form in the universe has its own authentic and specific-serial-number. The Talaprastara, which has very recently been brought out since many centuries, only gives this critical knowledge. Some well-disciplined terms and conditions which are furnished in Taladasha-pranas must be fulfilled to make a rhythmical-form a Tala. Even though every person is highly interested in becoming a musician selected person only can become a musician but not all others.

cmlover:

In which way some kind of uniformity is maintained in the limbs of our body either in respect of hands or legs or eyes or ears some kind of uniformity or discipline must certainly be maintained in respect of Tala (not chando-roopa please) to make the music run softly. I hope you can very easily imagine the chaos if we have to work with one hand longer and another shorter, one leg longer and another shorter and so on and so forth. amsharma
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cmlover
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#193 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover » 29 May 2011, 09:42

Sarmaji
so your argument is based on aesthetics or symmetry in particular. I wonder who created those rules in the first instance. The same argument was employed for excluding the vivadi melas and their janyas in the raga context but the Trinity did compose a few in those melas/ragas which are quite appealing. What is intellectually appealing need not be simple or symmetrical. Our math does not exclude prime numbers for their indivisibility. The leaning tower of Pisa is one of the greatest architectural attractions in the world. Nor do we shun handicapped individuals for their asymmetry or lack of limbs. Aren't we doing injustice to CM by creating and sticking to outmoded rules which hamper the development of our art form?
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chitravina ravikiran
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#194 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran » 29 May 2011, 10:25

VK ji,
Do not call them talas or even chanda talas ( which is akellaji's major complaint
1. But that is the point. The basic term 'tala' includes all these talas. It is not limited to or by dasha pranas. Dasha pranas is a no more than tool that attempts to study talas, a much larger phenomenon.

2. How can a tool restrict the subject? Even among the dasha pranas, prastara is more a theoretical tool. If not, would not every gurukulam from PD to OVK/Trinity, their gurus till today's pitamahas like Semmangudi/GNB have been teaching dasha pranas like Sarali varishais or 72 melakartas and so forth?

3. Prastara is a highly specialised subect and Akella garu has mastered it. We all should respect that. He is doing everything to share his knowledge - we all admire that.

4. However, it is still one of 10 components in a study tool. In other words, AN, OVK or SS level people should not be viewed through that small prism like prastara and judged one way or the other. That will dangerously distort our perspectives, as CML has also pointed out.
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Ponbhairavi
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#195 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Ponbhairavi » 29 May 2011, 12:32

I understand that the word talam in its original usage denotes the tool i e the instrument , the cymbals (the jalras) bhagavathas keep in their hands to mark the rhythm.In such a context the thevaram singers the tirupugazh singers keep it in their hands. subsequently it should have come to denote the various forms of rhythm and its angas.
rajagopalanI
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msakella
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#196 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella » 29 May 2011, 13:10

Ravikiran:

Rules and regulations will always be framed to do things in an easy and disciplined manner to cater the needs of either efficients or inefficients and, later, in due course, they will be made flexible either to make the process easier or to accommodate developments or even to accommodate inefficiencies and inconveniences.

Thus, Taladasha-pranas are to have a well-disciplined tala-structure but not only to ‘study’ Talas. Our body is controlled by Pancha-pranas which means every thing of our body will be limited to these Pancha-pranas only but not beyond.

Prastara is not a small prism at all and every thing which is sung comes under Prastara in which way every thing which is eaten have a taste. People may not mind it but there is a taste in each and every eatable. But, if the person’s tongue bears with it will be sent in or, if not, thrown out. Even in Sarali-varisai and 72-Melas always there is Prastara even if the person is not aware of it. Irrespective of the level of the persons, everybody must abide by all the rules and regulations. If not, such persons, in the absence of the proper knowledge, name these Chando-roopas as Chando-talas or Anga-talas or some other name of their own fancy.
Now, at this juncture, I must tell that even Sharngadeva, irrespective of his un-paralleled knowledge in all other aspects of music, is the sole cause for this kind of chaos for not having taken a rational and well-disciplined action in respect of this ‘Prastara’ but mislead the readers furnishing contadictory versions of it in his ‘Sangita Ratnakara’ written in 13th century. See, what happened now to his monumental work? A small mosquito named ‘msakella’ brought out all his contradictions of Prastara into light which tarnished the image of him. Always, in every respect, it is preferable to have a rational and disciplined outlook of our deeds or if not, our image will certainly be tarnished at one time or other like the Great Sharngadeva.

cmlover:

Once Dr.R.Sathyanarayana of Mysore quoted that vivadis are meant only to enhance the beauty of the raga. But, due to their inefficiency in handling them, our musicians very conveniently excluded them. Our system of music is not filled with outmoded rules and regulations. But, as our people do not want to be controlled by strict dilscipline, they always want to amend rules in their favour. amsharma
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vasanthakokilam
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#197 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam » 29 May 2011, 20:13

If not, such persons, in the absence of the proper knowledge, name these Chando-roopas as Chando-talas or Anga-talas or some other name of their own fancy.
So, what is your suggestion for naming the musical rhythmical form of those chando-roopas that do not map to a thala prasthara serial number?
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VK RAMAN
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#198 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by VK RAMAN » 29 May 2011, 20:36

"to amend rules in their favour" - creativity at play
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msakella
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#199 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella » 29 May 2011, 21:20

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, In the universe, each and every rhythmical-form has its own specific-serial-number which could very easily be obtained through Prastara. But, there are two kinds of rhythmical-forms, 1. which can be rendered and named after a ‘Tala’ which fits in the terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas and 2.which should not be rendered and even named after any ‘Tala’ as it violates the terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas. Shyama Shastry’s Sharabhanandanam and the Chando-roopas of Arunagirinathar or of anybody else come under the 2nd category. Even though they have the specific-serial-number along with all others, they should not be rendered or even named after any ‘Tala’ as they all violate the terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas. That is why they all must be named after Chando-roopas or rhythmical-forms. That’s all.

Even all the three great devotees and composers of our musicial Trinity are very highly disciplined in so many aspects except one or two accidental incidents. In Shyama Shastry’s case he was compelled to defeat a Vidwan in saving the prestige of all the Asthana-vidwans and the kingdom. In this process, in the absence of the knowledge of Prastara (this element was fully defined by me only almost in the end of 20th century and prior to this all the musicians are unaware of it), only to defeat him he created a complex-rhythmical-form and named it ‘Sharabhanandana-tala’ to make it suitable against ‘Simhanandana-tala’. Except in this stray incident, he was very highly disciplined devotee of Mother Kamaakshi. Even in case of Dikshitar, must be only by the compulsion of somebody, he composed only one composition on the then Ettayaapuram Maharajah. Except this, he also was very highly disciplined devotee of the Almighty. Accoding to the history, even if they lived after OVK, it must be pointed out that, even though they all are more capable than any other musician in so many aspects, they always remained ideal very strictly following all the normal disciplines. amsharma
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hamsaa
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#200 Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa » 29 May 2011, 21:41

I think this thread is digressing completely away from the main topic...

Can Akella ji please explain what tala dasha pranas and prastaras have to do with the brilliant OVK composition in sankeerna mathyam?
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