Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Carnatic composers (other than performing vidwans)
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bhakthim dehi
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Viswa Sir used to sing the only Shanmughapriya krithi of Thygaraja-- Vadane(I may be mispronouncing this!!)
Not only this krithi was notated by Thillaisthanam dicsiples as mentioned by Ravisri, this was also published in the weekly Svasamitran in 1940s. Interestingly, this is one among the few krithis notated in the boook Sangita Sarvarta Sara Sangrahamu published around 1870. So, the authentiity of this krithi cannot be questioned.

May I know the reason for you to doubt the authenticity of this krithi?
What does Sri Madhav mean by his comments on vAsudEvayani and sundari nI divya rUpamunu?
Valajapet disciples use to sing the krithi sundari only from its anupallavi mandagamana. Even in the book Oriental music in Europan notation published by Sri. Chinnasvamy Mudaliyar, this krithi was indexed as mandagamana and not as sundari, which is followed now!!
that most of the vivadi swara krithis or krithis in ragas like balahamsa,Sindhukannada,manohari,vivardhini,etc--must have been in his early decades when Manambuchavadi Venkatasubbier and Walajapet Venkatramana Bhagavathar were his principal disciples
Krithis in balahamsa (both divya nama and regular krithis) were much available to both Umayalpuram and Thillaisthanam disciples. Same with manohari, sindhu kannada an vivardhani. All these krithis can be seen in the book Thyagaraja keerthanulu/ kruthulu by Sri. Narasimha bhagavathar published in the year 1908. He belongs to Thillaisthanam school.
Naina Pillai learnt Thyagaraja kritis from Wallajapet Krishnaswami Bhagavatar and from Jalatarangam Ramanayya Chetty
Are you sure it is Valajapet Krishnasvamy bhagavathar?

RaviSri
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

Are you sure it is Valajapet Krishnasvamy bhagavathar?
Sorry, it should be Walajapet Ramaswami Bhagavatar.

RaviSri
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

There has been a lot of trading of songs among the various schools. For example Umayalpuram Swaminatha Iyer did gurukulavasam with Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer who was a disciple of Manambuchavadi. His son Venkatarama Iyer learnt from Thillaistanam Panju Bhagavatar also. It was only the Thillaistanam disciples Narasimha Bhagavatar and Panju Bhagavatar who studied only with Thillaistanam Rama Iyengar and therefore did not mix up the versions of the three/four schools. The Wallajapet tradition also came down without much of changes. It was the Umayalpuram school, especially starting from Venkatarama Iyer that changed a lot of songs of the bard.

RaviSri
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

MKR, K.V.Ramachandran, a musicologist and brother-in-law of Dr.Seethapati Iyer who was a friend of both Dhanammal and Tiger has written articles on ragas and their true lakshanas. For a start you can read one of his articles in the Academy journal of 1950. It was a lecture he gave along with B-M singing some songs as examples.

https://issuu.com/themusicacademy/docs/1950

You can maybe search for KVR's other articles in the journals all of which are uploaded on the Music Academy's website.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Rightly said Ravisri. Umayalpuram disciples changed the lakshanam, pace, raga and tala of many songs. But I am not sure who started this in that lineage. U. Svaminatha iyer or U. Venkatarama iyer or the great doyens like MVI , SSI who came later.
But Umayalpuram disciples were able to make a noteable impact amongst rasikas than the other two.
Last edited by bhakthim dehi on 21 Apr 2016, 18:42, edited 2 times in total.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi »

There was also a good communication between U Svaminatha iyer and Thillaistanan Narasimha bhagavathar leading to exchange of songs between them. Similarly Dr Srinivasaraghavan, nephew of Thillaistanam Rama iyengar learnt from Jalatarangam Ramaniya Chetiyar, a disciple of Valajapet family.

Ramasubramanian M.K
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K »

RaviSri/Bhathimdehi:My humble pranams to your elucidations. I regret not having followed this thread since I joined the forum,RaviSri--I will follow up on your threads.
If either of you happen to be in Chennai or near Chennai I would very much like to meet with you. I will be in India--mostly Chennai and Coimbatore-during the period June 23rd thru August 15,It will be an honor to meet and imbibe some of your knowledge(I agree I should do my homework first!!). I have never bothered to study Telugu even in a rudimentary fashion . Your comments/references have rekindled my interest.
In this connection on a trivial note I should mention I have been associated with Jalatarangam Ramanayya Chetty--Semmangudi Mama in my younger days(apparently I had a raspy voice) used to introduce me as Jalatarangam Ramanayya Chetty to anybody and everybody. Apparently Sri. Ramanayya Chetty had a hoarse voice.Till reading these posts with reference to Ramanyya Chetti and T.Sankaran's book Sangeetha Medaigal(a very crisply and elegantly written book on the erstwhile masters including Ramanayya Chetty) I had no idea of how high Ramanayya Chetty's stature was amongst his contemporaries. I felt being compared to him is the highest compliment in a strange and weird way!!!!

rajeshnat
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by rajeshnat »

Ramasubramanian M.K wrote:RaviSri
I would very much like to meet with you. I will be in India--mostly Chennai and Coimbatore-during the period June 23rd thru August 15,
MKR
IIRC Ravi Sri are actually two persons - not sure if either of them write or both write with the same ID , is that not right RaviSri- there was a reference.
Certainly Bhakthim dehi and RaviSri are very special in bringing their deep knowledge.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

RaviSri - Ravi and Sridhar.

Ref: Post #27, Para 3 of -
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic ... ri#p206474

RaviSri
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

But I am not sure who started this in that lineage. U. Svaminatha iyer or U. Venkatarama iyer or the great doyens like MVI , SSI who came later.
The changes were not made by Umayalpuram Krishna Bhagavatar or Sundara Bhagavatar. They stayed true to what Thyagaraja and Manambuchavadi taught them. Swaminatha Iyer also stayed true to the versions he learnt. I have it from a daughter of Palakkad Rama Bhagavatar that he used to sing many songs in dEshAdi tala, that was how he had learnt many songs from Swaminatha Iyer. It was Swaminatha Iyer's son Venkatarama Iyer who changed a lot of songs and this was carried forward by the likes of MVI and SSI. Ritha Rajan in her dissertation also explains with examples the songs that Venkatarama Iyer 'changed'. She uses the word "constructed" and "reconstructed",which only means that songs for which Venktarama Iyer did not know the meTTus, he simply tuned them himself.

MKR, below is a link to Ritha Rajan's dissertation on various versions of Thyagaraja kritis available in may parts, I think seven. She gives a detailed ccount of the different versions of the bard's songs, Wallajapet (which she learned from (Muktahmma), Umayalpuram (which she learned from Maruthuvakkudi Rajagopala Iyer) and Thillaistanam (which she learned from S.Parthasarathy and his wife). You can download the pdf files whch contain audio recordings of her also.

http://www.musicresearch.in/categorywis ... &authid=16

I'll meet you in Madras when you come between June and August.

RaviSri
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

not sure if either of them write or both write with the same ID
Only Ravi (myself) writes. Sridhar does not.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi »

The changes were not made by Umayalpuram Krishna Bhagavatar or Sundara Bhagavatar. They stayed true to what Thyagaraja and Manambuchavadi taught them. Swaminatha Iyer also stayed true to the versions he learnt. I have it from a daughter of Palakkad Rama Bhagavatar that he used to sing many songs in dEshAdi tala,
Umayalpuram Sri Krishna and Sundara bhagavathar were so devoted that they wont sing neraval or svaram for Svamigal's krithis. That was the devotion they had. Their versions (few krithis which are available match very well with the Valajapet versions. So, they are not culpable
.

RaviSri
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

Umayalpuram Sri Krishna and Sundara bhagavathar were so devoted that they wont sing neraval or svaram for Svamigal's krithis.
Soolamangalam Vaidyanatha Bhagavatar in his book says that Krishna and Sundara Bhagavatar never sang niraval or kalpana swara because Thyagaraja had forbidden them from doing so. Same case with Thillaistanam Rama Iyengar. Thygaraja's point was, the beauty of the kriti would be spoilt if niraval and swaram were sung (kIrthanayin gambhIram pOy viDum). We could experience the truth of the above point when vidvans used to sing elaborate niraval and swaras for kritis like O rangashAyi, srI subramanyAya namastE etc., and then rush through the charaNam like reciting a nursery rhyme. Once one of my friends told me that though he was listening to concerts for more than a quarter of a century he had never, repeat, never heard the charanam of srI subramaNyAya namastE properly.

Soolamangalam has also written that Umayalpuram Krishna Bhagavatar and Thillaistanam Rama Iyengar used to give concerts together. This shows that the direct disciples belonging to two different periods of Thyagaraja's life sang the same way. So much for the so called versions which were latter day aberrations.

rajeshnat
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by rajeshnat »

RaviSri wrote:Umayalpuram Sri Krishna and Sundara bhagavathar were so devoted that they wont sing neraval or svaram for Svamigal's krithis.
....
Thygaraja's point was, the beauty of the kriti would be spoilt if niraval and swaram were sung (kIrthanayin gambhIram pOy viDum). We could experience the truth of the above point when vidvans used to sing elaborate niraval and swaras for kritis like O rangashAyi, srI subramanyAya namastE etc., and then rush through the charaNam like reciting a nursery rhyme.
RaviSri
Possibly towards the last few years when Sadguru Thyagaraja was old there may have been rama navami like celebrations where by mistake one of T's disciples took up neraval and swaras which was not appropriate for the occassion. T may have chided once and possibly we are over extrapolating that incident and kind of extending that one time chide as an all time chide. Anyway this is just a minor counter .

Few years back suguna varadachari told in a lecdem that neraval came from the thamizh word neravardu meaning it to make it even in melody and rhythmn. Is there a history of when neraval started ? My poor logical extrapolation makes me believe that the generation of Patnam/ Maha vaidyanatha sivan brought in more neraval/swaras or rather more musical output than the generation of T-MD-SS or before who were more krithi centric ?

Please correct me in all angles if my conclusion is way too wrong and please extrapolate what all you know about origin of neraval during different eras . Also if there is some truth in the angle of we excessively extrapolating that T was chiding on neraval and swaras?

Ramasubramanian M.K
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K »

Re:Post#260-RaviSri: I will gladly take you upon your offer to meet. I will contact you via the forum when I get my cell activated in Chennai.Besides the insights into the Saint'skrithis I am also interested in knowing more about the Dhanammal family's interpretations,given your association with the family.Although my mother was close enough to Brindamma(thro the MSS connection) and also my cousin Kalyani Sharma(who learnt from both B and M Ammas),I never got a chance to delve del into it as you have so assiduosly cultivated.

I have the highest regard for the Dhanammal family for preserving without adding Sonda Sarakku,despite their Pandityam/Credentials in the Lakshya and lakshana of our music . My eternal regret has been not taking up Viswa Sir's offer to teach me if I would only commute to Connecticut from New York!!!

I wish our Society had done better in promoting the family's legacy.Sorry for the digression. I know this thread is about Thygaraja.!!!

RaviSri
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

rajeshnat, the earliest account of neraval, kalpana swaras we have are of Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer and the Anai Ayya brothers, from the writings of Soolamangalam Vaidyanatha Bhagavatar and U.Ve. Swaminatha Iyer. In the time of the Trinity too there might have been vidvans singing neraval and kalpana swaram. Before the time of the Trinity, when there were very few compositions and CM was mainly performed in royal courts, the pallavi was the main item sung, for hours together perhaps. Later with the advent of a lot of kritis, vidvans began bringing the aspect of neraval and swaram to concerts. I very well understand and appreciate Thyagaraja's opposition to neraval and kalpana swaras. I have myself felt suffocated in concerts listening to overdose of these two items. And even if crisp and short, personally I have felt what Soolamangalam says Thyagaraja felt, namely that the keerthanai's gambhIram will get affected. It is not just my friend but even myself, who, until I learn the songs myself, never got to listen to a decent rendering of the charanams of srI subramaNyAya namastE or akshayalinga vibhO and many other songs. After listening to music for more than 15 years, I was stunned to "newly" discover the full beauty of certain kritis when I learnt the songs from Mukthamma. The pUrvikalyANI kriti, 'paripUrNa kAmA' is such a beauty, especially its charanam but I discovered it much later when I chanced upon a recording of B-M singing it without the neraval, swaras. I did not request Mukthamma to teach me that song because I was convinced it was an ordinary song, just because everyone used to sing neraval and kalpana swaram.

Soolamangalam, when he writes in his book about Veena Dhanammal says, " nAn ethanaiyO vidvAngaLai kETTirukkirEn. inda ammAL neraval swaram eduvum pADAmal, verum sAhityangaLai maTTUm pADinAlum, avargaL ellOrayum viDa inda ammALIn sangItam muzumayAna truptiyai koDuthadu" (I have listened to many vidvans, but this lady even though she sings only the sahityams gives total satisfaction more than anyone else). One can dismiss this off as the subjective opinion of someone, but after so many years of listening I tend to agree. One can bring total satisfaction to the listener just by singing kritis perfectly with bhava. This quality has been missing in many vidvans for the last 60 years, except in a few. Well, this is my opinion. Butt this opinion of mine was vindicated when I read about Thyagaraja's advice to his disciples to eschew neraval and swaras.

MKR, society, the Carnatic music world I mean did a lot of wrong to their community as a whole. Not just to the Dhanammal family. What honours did that Abhinava Nandi from Needamangalam get? Or for that matter Nachiyar Kovil Raghava Pillai or Valangaiman Shanmukhasundaram or.......the list goes on. That is how it has been, is, and will be, the CM world. And where are the musicians from that community now? How will they dare to come to the field if the response of society is so discouraging? B-M's brothers and Bala's two brothers (Srinivasan and Varadan) studied and went on to work. They did not take to music. Now, in the generation after that even the ladies have studied, become professionals in fields other than music. What else can they do? It is a pity that the Dhanammal bhaNi has almost become extinct in their family.

RaviSri
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

I would like to write about the Thillaistanam school of Thyagaraja.

Thillaistanam is a village on the banks of the Cauvery, about 2 km west of Tiruvaiyyaru on the way to Grand Anicut/Trichy. There is a Siva ass well as a Vishnu temple. Thillaistanam is one of the seven shrines comprising the Saptastanam. Rama Iyengar belonging to this village was a disciple of Thyagaraja. He considered himself to be Hanuman to Thyagaraja's Rama. Rama Iyengar had two disciples, Thillaistanam Narasimha Bhagavatar and his brother Panju Bhagavatar. These two conducted the Aradhana utsavam at Tiruvaiyyaru for a couple of years before they fell out over differences in the account keeping for a particular year. The two started conducting the Aradhana separately. Narasimha Bhagavatar's team was called the Periya Katchi and Panju Bhagavatar's team was called Chinna Katchi.

Panju Bhagavatar had as disciple Rama Iyengar's nephew Srinivasaraghavan. The latter went on to become a doctor, settled down in Saidapet, Madras and taught the bard's songs to a few disciples, chief among who were S.Parthasarathy and his wife Ranganayaki and Sugandha Raman, mother of the Carnatic/Hindustani musician Shakuntala Narasimhan. The doctor knew all the charanams of all the songs of the bard and conducted monthly song sessions on bahula panchami days, the day Thyagaraja passed away. Dr.Srinivasaraghavan or Dr.Cheema as he was known died at the age of about 80 on a bahula panchami day in 1950 after singing Thyagaraja's songs. The kritis have not undergone much change. The doctor's disciples were not concert musicians and had therefore no compulsion to either speed up the songs or indulge in creating extra sangatis.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Some more snippets regarding Rama Iyengar and Thillaisthanam school.
Sri . Rama Iyengar was a devoted disciple and used to be with his Guru always. He had a very nice, pliable voice and was a specialist in handling prati-madhyama ragas especiallly kalyani. He use to write the saint's compositions in palm leaves and it was preserved at Srirangam, by one of his descendants. He (descendant)gave those manuscripts to anyone who approached him. Thus it is not an exaggeration if I say the manuscripts were totally lost.
Dr. Srinivasaragavan also learnt from Jalatarangam Ramaniya Chettiyar, a disciple from Valajapet school. Hence, his versions are representative of both the schools.

RaviSri
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

Dr. Srinivasaragavan also learnt from Jalatarangam Ramaniya Chettiyar, a disciple from Valajapet school. Hence, his versions are representative of both the schools.
I have not heard about this. T.Sankaran who has told me about Jalatarangam as well as about Dr.Cheema did not tell me that the Doctor learnt from Jalatarangam. Can you tell me where this information is from? Is it from an authentic source? Apart from this, Dr.Cheema used to say, about certain songs, that Naina Pillai also sang the same way, meaning like how the Thillaistanam disciples sang. He used to say this especially of the Nata Pancharatnam in which the arrangement of the charanams is totally different from how it is being sung now with Thyagaraja's mudra occurring every three charanams. Also, Sankaranna has told me that Dr.Cheema learnt all the 800 songs from Narasimha Bhagavatar and Panju Bhagavatar.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi »

The details regarding Dr. Srinivasaragahavan were quoted from Dr. Rita's doctoral thesis.
Dr.Cheema used to say, about certain songs, that Naina Pillai also sang the same way, meaning like how the Thillaistanam disciples sang.
It is not surprising as Naina Pillai had his sources from Jalatarangam Ramaniah chettiyar and Valajapet Ramasvamy Bhagavathar.

SrinathK
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by SrinathK »

@RaviSri, Coming from a parampara that is the closest thing we can get to a time machine, you all should share the versions of the compositions you know with the world. The things you speak of are probably not available in any recordings anywhere. I have been recently going through each and every one of the recordings available in the tribute pages as part of my listening project -- in many cases there are multiple versions of the same.

Here's another example -- Eg., Brinda - Mukta have sung nE mora pettitE in thOdi while it is now listed as rUpavati. While I found 3 (!) versions of nE pogaDa kunTe. But really the most striking thing was the very first song on the list -- A daya shrI raghuvara in Ahiri by Brinda-Mukta. Using the G2 instead of G3 as is done today gave that raga a completely different flavour altogether.

RaviSri
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

Yes, AdayasrI is a major song in Ahiri and it has a different flavour. Only the Alathur Bros used to sing this song among others, but it sounded different from that of B-M.

I can immediately recollect the famous song in tODI, 'EmijesitEnEmi'. The eDuppu is very different in the B-M version. I am in the process of reviving many songs as taught to me by Mukthamma and i'll slowly record one by one. Even their 'swAminAtha paripAlayAshumAm' (nATa) is different, in chauka kAlam as to bring out the beauty of the vivAdi swaras.

I know some Thillaistanam versions also which too I'll record.

RaviSri
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

There are about 120 songs Thyagaraja has composed in dEshAdi talam, none of which is being sung in that talam in concerts. The Thillaistanam disciples used to sing in dEshAdi. They used to say that if converted to Adi talam, as was done for all the dEshAdi songs, the original flavour of the song diminishes, especially the "gambhIram" of the vIchu in the talam.

Songs like nAdOpAsanA (bEgaDA), mEru samAna (mAyamALavagauLa), sItAvra sangIta jnAnamu (dEvagAndhAri), gItArthamu (shuruTTi), dinamaNi vamsha (harikAmbhOji) etc., were composed in dEshAdi only. When concerted to Adi 2 kaLai, the lines would have to be repeated twice for one Avartanam.

SrinathK
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by SrinathK »

When you say deshadi, are you referring to the +1 eDuppu or the +1 1/2 eDuppu (the one I'm aware of) or both? Currently these compositions are either in +1/2 eDuppu or +3/4 eDuppu in 2 kalai.

RaviSri
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

The eduppu is after the samam and two counts, just before the vIchu. This is in one kaLai.

SrinathK
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by SrinathK »

@RaviSri Pardon my ignorance, I have no idea what's a vIchu.

Also I still didn't get it so let me ask again. 2 counts after samam would be +1/2 eDuppu to me. More precisely, 2 notes after samam @ 4 notes / beat in 1 kalai.

I was thinking deshAdi as +1 1/2 beats after samam in 1-kalai. E.g. Eti yOchanalu. I describe a +1 1/2 eDuppu as 6 notes after samam with 4 notes in a beat OR 1 beat + 2 notes after samam with 4 notes to a beat. Am I right?

On a side note, I feel that the concept of Kalai from a metronomic point of view, is somewhat fictitious, since it is equivalent to raising the degree of speed while proportionately reducing the beats per min or the overall tempo by the same relative amount.

keerthi
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by keerthi »

1. I think what Ravisri meant to say in the case of songs like Meru samAna etc. is madhyAdi annd not deshAdi.

2. SrinathK - You are right that songs like ETi yocanAlu represent the textbook makeup of a deshAdi song. The technical disucssion sections has a longish thread, with many older discussion on the deshadi and its unique laya.

3. vichu = veesu = visarjitam = the tAlanga marked by a wave of the hand, palm facing upwards [the second unit of a drutam for example]
On a side note, I feel that the concept of Kalai from a metronomic point of view, is somewhat fictitious
4. The concept of kapha, vAta and pitta from the biochemistry view point too, will be 'fictitious'. However they are central concepts in another paradigm of biomedical science. The notion of kaLai is probably an artifact of an older system of describing the features of tAla [kalA from the tAla-dasha-prANa-s, blurred up with mArga of the same set].

Further, I disagree with the idea that kalai is merely a matter of changing the tempo of a song. counting the number of mAtra [moraic syllables] in the lines of a song will often help to determine what is to be the laya architecture; and the transgression of these principles will gives us pAthAntara-s with cluttered or unevenly strewn sAhitya [examples are aplenty]. there are differences in other features such as the arudi kArvai and other kArvais interspersed in the song, between songs of the 1 kaLai and 2 kaLai.

This is true not just for Adi tAla, but for the jhampa tigers in chApu sheep's clothing, the tripuTa-misra ekam, the rUpaka-tisra eka gaits as well.

SrinathK
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by SrinathK »

I didn't intend to imply that kalai is all about changing a song's tempo (though in the trinity collections you will find quite a few that went from 2 kalai to 1 kalai simply by doing this).

There is a very distinct difference between the handling of a +3/4 eduppu pause in a 1 kalai and the same eduppu in a 2 kalai (which strictly speaking has 2 versions, a) a 6/8 version with 8 notes per kriya that's similar to dEshAdi and b) a 3/4 version at a slower tempo -- this one immediately lets you know that you are in 2 kalai and not 1 kalai, especially if used at the half way point in Adi Tala). @keethi, Excuse me for using modern English in this one, but it's easiest for me.

Right now if I understand what madhyAdi means, I think Endaro is probably the only song out there still being sung out there like that, right?

And while we are at that, who introduced that spurious charanam in sAdinchanE that never caught on?

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Srinath, I think madyAdi is anything that starts between the 1st and 2nd beat. Endaro is a special case where it starts right on the 2nd beat.. right?

If I understand right, RaviSri's use of 'just before vIchu' is not from the Adi kriya point of view. He indeed is refering to desAdi songs but the Kriyas are different. We discussed this elsewhere. In that desAdi kriya scheme, the eduppu is before the vIchu. 'Before the vIchu' for desAdi does not make any sense when talked in terms of Adi. If I find the thread I will post here, or before that I am sure RaviSri will explain the original kriya for desAdi.

RaviSri
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

I am sorry Srinath, I cannot explain using technical terms. I just know couple of songs in dEshAdi. keerthi has explained it well and I can do no better than give this link. It has Radha Viswanathan sing the Sankarabharanam thillana of Poochi in dEshAdi. I think you can understand the kriya of the talam because she has employed it clearly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiWyZLKLCA8

SrinathK
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by SrinathK »

Thank you RaviSri, a video is worth a thousand words!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Is it then like a Atheetha Eduppu 2 Kalai Chathusra Eka? The difference in the kriya is the first beat is a vIchu as opposed to a thattu?

RaviSri
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

Today starts the 250th birth year of Thyagaraja. Today, 4th May is his English date of birth. Had he lived he would have completed 249 years. His actual Jayanthi is on 12th May (Poosam star). Special poojas will be held on 12th at Tiruvaiyyaru and at Varahappayyar lane, Thanjavur. Shyama Sastri's is on 7th (Krithika star).

SrinathK
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by SrinathK »

So then, a list of Thyagaraja krithis in dEshAdi would be quite helpful. If such a list is already here somewhere, kindly let me know. Meanwhile here are the old threads on this tala

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=828

So deshAdi and madhyAdi basically consist of : wave + beat + beat + beat . @8 notes per beat, +3/4 eDuppu in this tala or six notes from from the start is deshAdi, while +1/2 eDuppu or 4 notes from the start is madhyAdi.

When transposed into the regular Adi tAla 1 kalai @ 4 notes per beat, deshAdi will be at +1 1/2 beats from samam.

For madhyAdi, change to 2 kalai Adi tala @ 1/2 eDuppu (If you take it that each major beat should be repeated twice in 2 kalai, this will land on the 2nd repetition of the 1st major beat of the tala), which will force you to repeat every line 2x to fit into the tala cycle.

Lakshman
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Lakshman »

Here is the list:
Ananda sAgara mIdani. rAgA: garuDadhvani. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
AnandamAnandamAyenu. rAgA: bhairavi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
bAgayanayya nI mAya lentO bramhakaina. rAgA: candrajyOti. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
baNTu rIti kolu viyavayya rAma. rAgA: hamsanAda. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
bhuvini dAsuDanE pErAsacE. rAgA: shrIranjani. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
calamElarA sAkEtarAmA. rAgA: mArgahindOLa. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
cEra rAvadEmirA rAmayya. rAgA: rItigauLa. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
cinna nADE nA ceyi baTTitivE. rAgA: kalAnidhi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
daridApulEka vEDitE. rAgA: sAvEri. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
dEvAdi dEva sadAshiva dInanAtha. rAgA: sindhurAmakriyA. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
dvaitamu sukhamA advaitamu sukhamA. rAgA: rItigauLa. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
EdAri sancarinturA ika balkarA. rAgA: kAntAmaNi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
EmandunE vicitramunu ilalOna manuju lADEdi. rAgA: shrImaNi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
enduku nirdaya evarunnArurA. rAgA: harikAmbhOji. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
enduku peddala vale buddhi iyavu endu. rAgA: shankarAbharaNa. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
enta bhAgyamu mApAla galgEtivi evvarIdu. rALA: sAranga. dEshAdi tALA
enta nErcina enta jUcina enta. rAgA: udayaravicandrikA. dEshAdi tALA
enta vEDukondu O rAghava. rAgA: sarasvatImanOhari. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
EtAvuna nErcitivO rAma. rAgA: yadukulakAmbhOji. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
eTi yOcanalu cEsEvurA eduru balka. rAgA: kiraNAvaLi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
evaraina lErA peddalu ilalOna dInula. rAgA: siddhasEnA. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
evaritO nE delpudu rAma nAlOni jAlini. rAgA: mAnavati. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
evvarE rAmayya nI sari. rAgA: gAngEyabhUSaNi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
giripai nelakonna rAmuni guri dappaga kaNTi. rAgA: shahAnA. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
girirAja sutA tanaya sadaya. rAgA: bangALa. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
gItArthamu sangItAnandamu nI tAvuna jUDarA. rAgA: suraTi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
graha balam Emi shrI rAmAnugraha balamE. rAgA: rEvagupti. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
kaDatEra rAdA manasA. rAgA: tODi. dEshAdi. Tyagaraja.
kaLala nErcina munu jEsinadi gAka Emi aravai. rAgA: dIpaka. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
kalinarulaku mahimalu delipi Emi. rAgA: kuntalavarALi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
kamalApta kula kalashAbdhi candra. rAgA: brndAvanasAranga. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
kanna taNDri nApai karuNa mAnakE gAsi. rAgA: dEvamanOhari. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
kaNTa jUDumi oka pAri krE. rAgA: latAngi / vAcaspati. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
kanugoNTini shrI rAmuni nEDu. rAgA: bilahari. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
mA jAnaki ceTTa beTTaga. rAgA: kAmbhOji. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
madilOna yOcana. rAgA: kOlAhala. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
mAkElarA vicAramu. rAgA: ravicandrikA. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
manasulOni marmamu. rAgA: hindOLa. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
manavi nAlaginca. rAgA: nalainakAnti. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
mariyAda gAdayya. rAgA: bhairava. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
marugElarA O. rAgA: jayantashrI. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
mATADavEmi nAtO. rAgA. nIlAmbari. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
mEnu jUci mOsa bOkavE. rAgA: sarasAngi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
mEru samAna. rAgA: mAyAmALavagauLa. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
munupE teliyaka. rAgA: bangALa. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
nA moralanu vini emara. rAgA: Arabhi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
nAdOpAsanace. rAgA: bEgaDa. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
nAma kusumamulacE. rAgA: shrI. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
nannu brOva nIkinta. rAgA: abhOgi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
nannukanna talli. rAgA: kEsari. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
nenaruncarA nApaini. rAgA: simhavAhini. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
nenaruncinAnu annTiki. rAgA: mALavi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
nEramA rAma. rAgA: saurASTra. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
nI cittamu nA. rAgA: vijayavasanta. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
nI dAsAnudAsuDa. rAgA: hamIrkalyANi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
nI dayacE rAma. rAgA: yadukulakAmbhOji. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
nijamuga nI mahimalu. rAgA: shahAna. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
paluku kaNDa. rAgA: navarasakannaDa. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
parAku nI kElarA rAma. rAgA: kiraNAvaLi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
paralOka bhayamu. rAgA: mandAri. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
paralOka sAdhanamE. rAgA: pUrvikalyANi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
prANanAtha birAna. rAgA: shUlini. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
rAga sudhArasa pAnamu. rAgA: AndOLikA. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
raghunandana rAjamOhana. rAgA: shuddhadEshi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
rAmacandra nI daya. rAgA: suraTi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
sAkSi lEdanucu. rAgA: bangALa. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
samukhana nilva. rAgA: kOkilavarALi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
sanAtana parama pAvana. rAgA: phalamanjari. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
sandEhamunu dIrpumayya. rAgA: rAmapriyA. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
sangIta shAstra. rAgA: sALagabhairavi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
sarasa sAma dAna. rAgA: kApinArAyaNi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
sarasIruhAnana rAma. rAgA: mukhAri. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
sarijEsi vEDuka. rAgA: tIvravAhini. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
sarivArilOna cauka. rAgA: bhinnaSaDja. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
sari evvarE shrI jAnaki. rAgA: shrIranjani. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
sArvabhauma sAkETa. rAgA: rAgapanjaramu. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
shrI jAnakI manOhara. rAgA: IshamanOhari. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
shrI mAnini manOhara. rAgA: pUrNaSaDjam. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
shrIkAnta nIyeDa. rAgA: bhavapriyA. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
sItApati nA manasuna. rAgA: khamAs. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
smaraNE sukhamu. rAgA: janaranjani. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
sogasu jUDa taramA. rAgA: kannaDagauLa. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
sukhi evarO rAma nAma. rAgA: kAnaDa. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
tanamIda nE. rAgA: bhUSAvaLi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
tanavAri tanamu. rAgA: bEgaDa. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
teliyalEru rAma. rAgA: dhEnukA. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
vAcAmagOcaramE. rAgA: kaikavashi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
vara rAga layagnulu. rAgA: cencukAmbhOji. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
vErevvarE gati. rAgA: suraTi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
vidulaku mrokkEda. rAgA: mAyAmALavagauLa. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
vina nAshakoni. rAgA: pratApavarALi. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
vina rAdA nA manavi. rAgA: dEvagAndhAri. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
vinatA suta vAhana. rAgA: jayantasEnA. dEshAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.


rAma kathA sudhArasa. rAgA: madhyamAvati. madhyAdi tALA. Tyagaraja.
rAma nIyeDa prEma. rAgA: kharaharapriyA. madhyadi tALA. Tyagaraja.

isramesh
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by isramesh »

This is an interesting discussion. BTW can we get any links to one of these krithis sung in proper desadi and changed version for comparison. Just to understand for musical illiterates like me. Thanks.

kvchellappa
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by kvchellappa »

V Sriram is giving info on Thuagaraja under Thyagaraja250 in his tweets.

keerthi
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by keerthi »

For madhyAdi, change to 2 kalai Adi tala @ 1/2 eDuppu (If you take it that each major beat should be repeated twice in 2 kalai, this will land on the 2nd repetition of the 1st major beat of the tala), which will force you to repeat every line 2x to fit into the tala cycle.
Actually the opposite, it is likely that madhyAdi was devised to accommodate the repetition of lines [half-lines rather] in a fashion such that each syllable falls on the same tAlanga for each repetition or sangati. People who sing mEru-samAna, rAmakathA-sudhA-rasa-pAnamu, rAma-bANa-trANa-shauryam or giripai nelakonna, while reckoning the usual 2 kaLai adi tAla will notice that every odd numbered repetition of the phrase 'mEru-samana' falls on a laghu while every even numbered repetition falls on the pair of druta-s.

Based on the tacit rule of Carnatic tradition of singing the krti, pallavi, svarakalpana and neraval that 'the sahitya syllables must occupy a fixed position'; it is untenable that ru of mEru occurs on the 14th akSara of Adi tAla for the first time, and on the 46th akSara in the next repetition. So if the style of reckoning the tAla [the kriyA] is of the madhyAdi type, there is a consistency in the position of the sAhitya syllables with regard to their position in the tAla.

I suspect that Lakshman-ji's list gives all madhyAdi-s as deshAdi. and there are instances like the sarasAngi song which has madhyAdi as well as deshAdi pAThAntarams.

rajeshnat
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by rajeshnat »


satyabalu
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by satyabalu »

#Tyagaraja250 - 61. His opera Prahlada Bhakti Vijayam has songs in ragas that he has not used otherwise - paras & ghaNTa are examples.
Courtesy Sriram Venkatakrishnan.

RaviSri
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri »

This is right only as far as paras is concerned. In ghanta, Thyagaraja has composed many songs, especially the major gAravimparAdA, perugu pAlu etc. He ha composed even a mangalam in ghanta.

shankarank
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by shankarank »

keerthi wrote:Based on the tacit rule of Carnatic tradition of singing the krti, pallavi, svarakalpana and neraval that 'the sahitya syllables must occupy a fixed position';
Is this that sacrosanct? - this used to be a TMT rule of neraval singing ( heard from some of his students).

Does this allow odukkals and tempo rubatos?

Lot of fun in Carnatic music will be gone if this is so strict. I would demand what could be called a mAtra integrity to the composition , but not an exactitude. If two people cannot execute gamakas on the frequency scale in the same way - depending on their felicity of their Sruti control or manodharmam - I would say two people should be free to move syllables on the time scale differently as well based on their felicity of laya control as long as a certain mAtra integrity ( to the original pATam) is maintained and tAla's kriyas are acknowledged for their presence subtly albeit not emphatically.

viSranti speaks not just through a gamaka, but also through a layaka!

So goes my principle of equivalence based on my GUT theory of carnatic music :!: :idea: :ugeek:

keerthi
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by keerthi »

Is this that sacrosanct? - this used to be a TMT rule of neraval singing ( heard from some of his students).
Does this allow odukkals and tempo rubatos?
I think we must make a distinction between the shift of half an akSara or rarely one akSara that happens in rubato-s and a shift of 16 akSara-s, which happens when you sing a madhyAdi song in Adi tAlam 2 kaLai.

Personally, I am all for the rubato type sangatis that were sung by intrepid musicians like TRS, Voleti and Balasaraswathi. There are even some compositions wherein a traditional sangati incorporates such a shift - the TiruppAmburam version of Dorakuna for example, the penultimate sangati extends beyond the tAla Avarta to 2 akSaras of the next sangati, which has a 2 akSaram eDuppu instead of a sama eDuppu.

Such incremental shifts are also seen in top quality pallavi singing, where occasionally every sAhityAkSara is shifted by 1/2 akSara and the effect is thrilling. These shifts - both premeditated and manodharma - are of great aesthetic value and I find them beautiful and exciting, but surely it can't be compared to singing meru samAna or upacAramulanu once on the laghu and once on the two drutams. That is stretching the definition of odukkal.

shankarank
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by shankarank »

Keerthi - understood - I was only referring to TMT's intransigence on syllable positions of compositions ( kopiShtan as SSI refers to him apparently).

A prevailing example will be rAga sudha rasa - whose pallavi lines make one think that it is 2-kaLai 3/4 eddupu ( as it spans 4 AvartAs in 1-kaLai) - only to be confused when AP and carNam come along. But I presume it is uniformly sung in 1-kaLai.

Would that be the template for others?

Suryasriram
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Suryasriram »

RaviSri wrote:As for "vAsudevayani", yes, this song was changed by GNB. The original version is different. I have learnt the original version which is a lot better than GNB's. The original version starts as 'PMPDNSS' and also is slower. An old group in Trichy, the Sadguru Samajam also used to sing the original way. I have heard that Vedavalli's version is also similar, i.e., different from GNB's.
Why did GNB change the tune of Vasudevayani? And is the other version available online now?

Speaking of changes how did musicians even get the IDEA to change the songs? And how was it that their changed tunes REPLACED the originals?

SrinathK
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by SrinathK »

RaviSri, this is not fair. :D ;) You promised to share your versions of these and other krithis that you learned from Brinda-Mukta. In the absence of Brinda Mukta and available recordings and for us rasikas far away from live sources, we have only you to turn to.

thanjavooran
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by thanjavooran »

Suryasriram wrote:
RaviSri wrote:As for "vAsudevayani", yes, this song was changed by GNB. The original version is different. I have learnt the original version which is a lot better than GNB's. The original version starts as 'PMPDNSS' and also is slower. An old group in Trichy, the Sadguru Samajam also used to sing the original way. I have heard that Vedavalli's version is also similar, i.e., different from GNB's.
Why did GNB change the tune of Vasudevayani? And is the other version available online now?

Speaking of changes how did musicians even get the IDEA to change the songs? And how was it that their changed tunes REPLACED the originals?
This was one of the points touched by T L Sharma without mentioning the name of the Artiste. He sung the original version too.
He performed few other krithis' old version also in his Lec Dem y'day at karnatic music forum program.
Thanjavooran
08 08 2016

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Can you mention the songs which Sri Sharma sung yesterday, I mean the old versions.
Even Nayana Pillai, guru of Chittoor Subrahmanya Pillai has changed few songs. The present version of bantu reethi is attributed only to him.

thanjavooran
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by thanjavooran »

Shri bakthim dehi,
The following pieces were in his Demo. Songs were with different patantharam/ [ may be ] Old version
Thulasi jagajanani Saveri
NIthi chala sukhama Kalyani
Theradeeyaka Radha Gowlipantu

Thanjavooran
08 08 2016

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Thank you Sri. Thanjavooran.
Nithi chala sukhama, by any chance, started with nishadam?

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