Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Carnatic composers (other than performing vidwans)
Post Reply
RaviSri
Posts: 511
Joined: 10 Apr 2011, 11:31
x 36

#226 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri » 18 Sep 2013, 12:24

"rinaat katham tu bhavatastarishyaami"
Never heard of such a 'kriti'. Like the mythology (hagiography) that that book by T.S.Sundaresa Sharma is, this so called kriti is also a fake. Can't even imagine Thygaraja using such words.
0 x

vgovindan
Posts: 1603
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01
x 56
x 112

#227 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by vgovindan » 29 Sep 2013, 18:55

'ambudhi garva nigrahaM' in the Dikshitar kRti 'soundara rAjaM', would refer to Tsunami in Nagappattinam Please refer to anupallavi words 'nAga paTTana rAjaM'.

'ambudhi mada garvinci' in tyAgarAja kRti 'karmamE balavantamAyA' (sAvEri) refers to nIlAyatAkshi at Nagappattinam and Tsunami there.

However to reference to samudra rAja in the context of vAlmIki Ramayana is made in the tyAgarAja kRti 'evariccirirA' (madhyamAvati). He refers to rAma redirecting the brahmAstra (originally aimed at samudra rAja) against the dwellers of drumakulya (Barmer in Rajasthan) as referred to vAlmIki Ramayana.
V Govindan
0 x

VK RAMAN
Posts: 4992
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:29
x 19

#228 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by VK RAMAN » 29 Sep 2013, 19:48

vgovindan: Good to see you back. Thanks for being always there to advance the cause of Thyagaraja kritis
0 x

vgovindan
Posts: 1603
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01
x 56
x 112

#229 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by vgovindan » 29 Sep 2013, 20:34

One of the methods for chronicling kRtis of SrI tyAgarAja could be by sequencing the kRtis where incidents of Ramayana are mentioned. In the kRti 'E panikO' (asAvEri), SrI tyAgarAja expresses his desire to compose kRtis (about rAma) in the same manner as done my vAlmIki and others (vAlmIkAdi munulu narulu ninnnu varNinciri).

In the kRti 'rAga ratna mAlikA' (rItigauLa) SrI tyAgarAja states 'Sata rAga ratna mAlikacE rajjillunaTa' - the Lord shines with the garland of hundred(s) of rAga jewels. This kRti could mean that he has completed(?) composition as per his desire (stated above).

TS Balakrishna Sastrigal in his 'tyAgarAja rAmAyaNa' discourse, gives some sequence of Ramayana, which IMHO does not necessarily reflect the chronological order of Ramayana (as composed by the bard), because the kRtis chosen do not really seem to have such references. For example, he (Sastrigal) states 'mundu venuka' (darbAru) refers to rAma and lakshmaNa accompanying sage viSvAmitra. However, some others state that this kRti was sung when SrI tyAgarAja was proceeding to tirupati via Nagalapuram forests wherein some bandits surrounded the entourage of SrI tyAgarAja.

As all the books have catalogued the kRtis only by rAgas, the task of chronicling tyAgarAja kRtis would be a painstaking research.
0 x

rajeshnat
Posts: 8632
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
x 79
x 215

#230 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by rajeshnat » 15 Feb 2014, 07:36

Govindan Sir,

There are many krithis of sadguru on Lord RAmA where at times musicians sing as rama, rAma ,ramA ,rAmA etc
For eg rama nee sAmanEvaru ....then as they go with more sangathis rAmA nee sAmanEvaru in kharaharapriya .
Also rama nannu brova rA ....rAma nannu brova ra.... rAmA nannu brova rA in harikambOdhi

Has thyagaraja intended to have lyrics even as rama,ramA,rAma instead of rAmA . Can each of these pronounciations only indicate Lord rAmA . Is there different meanings for rama ramA than rAmA in telugu.

Or is it just musicality that dictates so many pronunciations of Lord rAmA.
0 x

rshankar
Posts: 13362
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
x 579
x 158

#231 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by rshankar » 15 Feb 2014, 11:16

Rajesh, as far as I know, rAma and rAmA should not be incorrect...however, ramA would be totally wrong in this context, as ramA is lakshmi.
0 x

vgovindan
Posts: 1603
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01
x 56
x 112

#232 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by vgovindan » 15 Feb 2014, 11:25

'rama' means 'to delight'
rAmA is the form of addressing.
It is not correct to sing 'rama nannu brOva'; 'rAmA nannu brOva' is the correct form.
However, even eminent singers like MS have sung it wrongly 'rAma nannu brOvarA' - the last syllable 'rA' is part of the next word 'rAvEmakO' (why would you do not come).
But then that is what paddhati is all about. No one is ready to bell the cat.
0 x

rajeshnat
Posts: 8632
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
x 79
x 215

#233 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by rajeshnat » 15 Feb 2014, 13:55

vgovindan wrote:'rama' means 'to delight'
VGV
Is there a T song where sadguru has used to mean delight (rama)?
0 x

vgovindan
Posts: 1603
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01
x 56
x 112

#234 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by vgovindan » 15 Feb 2014, 18:58

rajesh,
In the kRti 'ramincuvArevarurA' - supOshiNi - SrI tyAgarAja uses the word 'rama' as such to mean 'delight'.
However, various other forms of the word 'ramincu (telugu form of the word 'rama'), ramya, ramaNIya, rAma (in the sense of 'delight') abhirAma are used in many kRtis.
0 x

vgovindan
Posts: 1603
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01
x 56
x 112

#235 Origin of sapta svara in the Body

Post by vgovindan » 16 Feb 2014, 10:15

In the tyAgarAja kRti 'svara rAga sudhA' - SankarAbharaNaM, it is said -
"kOlAhala sapta svara gRhamula gurutE mOkshamurA O manasA"
(Recognising the abodes (in the body) of the splendorous seven svaras is indeed liberation)

According to the Tamil Book 'tamizhar vaLarttha azhagu kalaigaL' - http://www.tamilvu.org/library/lA417/html/lA417ind.htm
the following places are indicated -
இசை ஏழு. அவை குரல், துத்தம், கைக்கிளை, உழை, இளி, விளரி, தாரம் என்பன. இவை தமிழ்ப் பெயர்கள்.
மத்திமம், பஞ்சமம், தைவதம், நிஷாதம், ஷட்ஜம், ரிஷபம், காந்தாரம் என்பன வடமொழிப் பெயர்கள்.
இசை பிறக்கும் இடங்களாவன: மிடற்றினால் குரலும், நாவினால் துத்தமும்,
அண்ணத்தால் கைக்கிளையும், சிரத்தால் உழையும், நெற்றியால் இளியும்,
நெஞ்சினால் விளரியும், மூக்கால் தாரமும் பிறக்கும். பக்கம் (123)

Accordingly the body parts are - 'ma - throat (kaNTha), pa (tongue), dha (palate), ni (head), sa (forehead), ri (chest), ga (nose)
0 x

rajeshnat
Posts: 8632
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
x 79
x 215

#236 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by rajeshnat » 11 Apr 2016, 14:05

Govindan Sir(VGV)
IS abhista varadE mahAganapathE sung by hamsadhwani by maharajapuram school , a composition of sadguru Thyagaraja. Incidentally the krithi itself has lines like sadguru thyagarajan , can you let me know bit more about the krithi-is this spurious or wrongly attributed to Sadguru.
0 x

Lakshman
Posts: 11245
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52
x 42

#237 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Lakshman » 12 Apr 2016, 23:26

When I was at the Music Academy a while back, I came across a booklet by Vishvanatha Iyer titled Apoorva kritis of Tyagaraja or something like that. It had the song abhiSTa varada shrI.
0 x

RaviSri
Posts: 511
Joined: 10 Apr 2011, 11:31
x 36

#238 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri » 13 Apr 2016, 18:24

It is a spurious kriti. Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer came out with about 25 songs of "Thyagaraja" in 1947 during the composer's Aradhana centenary. These songs faded away in quick time only to be resurrected occasionally by his son many years later. Thankfully these fakes have now become very rare.
0 x

rajeshnat
Posts: 8632
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
x 79
x 215

#239 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by rajeshnat » 13 Apr 2016, 19:13

RaviSri wrote:It is a spurious kriti. Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer came out with about 25 songs of "Thyagaraja" in 1947 during the composer's Aradhana centenary. These songs faded away in quick time only to be resurrected occasionally by his son many years later. Thankfully these fakes have now become very rare.
Ravisri
This krithi has sadguru thyagaraja as one of the phrase in charanam, by any chance is there any original krithi written by T having sadguru thyagaraja as a phrase. Possibly this came to MVI thru his guru Umayalapuram swaminatha iyer- umayalpuram krishna bhagavathar(krishna was direct disciple of T) .Do you have the list of those 25 songs
0 x

bhakthim dehi
Posts: 491
Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28
x 23
x 24

#240 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi » 14 Apr 2016, 14:30

These songs came through one Thiruvaiyaru Subrahmanya Iyer. If I am not wrong he belongs to Thillaisthanam school. The sad part is that these songs were published by Sri Thyagaraja Utsava Sabha, Thiruvaiyaru.
0 x

bhakthim dehi
Posts: 491
Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28
x 23
x 24

#241 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi » 14 Apr 2016, 14:34

We can see Dr Balamuralikrishna rendering some of these songs (present in that book). Examples include Rakshimpave in malavagoula, Kalasamhara in sourashtram. Kshetrapalaka in bilahari was rendered by MLV.
0 x

keerthi
Posts: 1309
Joined: 12 Oct 2008, 14:10
x 1

#242 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by keerthi » 14 Apr 2016, 14:57

I am not at all interested in discussing these spurious krtis, but it is sad that they are still sung and taught. And it is important that people be informed about the story. Here is an older post where I have written about this set of fakes.
0 x

RaviSri
Posts: 511
Joined: 10 Apr 2011, 11:31
x 36

#243 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri » 14 Apr 2016, 18:28

Possibly this came to MVI thru his guru Umayalapuram swaminatha iyer- umayalpuram krishna bhagavathar(krishna was direct disciple of T)
These songs came through one Thiruvaiyaru Subrahmanya Iyer. If I am not wrong he belongs to Thillaisthanam school. The sad part is that these songs were published by Sri Thyagaraja Utsava Sabha, Thiruvaiyaru.
Umayalpuram Krishna Bhagavatar and Sundara Bhagavatar were very young when Thyagaraja was in his last years. T.S.Parthasarathy has said that the brothers were possibly disciples of Manambuchavadi Venkatasubbayyar. The brothers lived upto almost 1910. Umayalpuram Swaminatha Iyer most certainly would not have sung or taught spurious kritis. Such was his integrity. Viswanatha Iyer himself was innocent and he was inveigled into believing that these kritis were Thyagaraja's.

I dont have the list of the 25 songs. Why bother preserving a spurious list. Any sensitive rasika can easily find out if a kriti is original or fake if he/she has studied at least a few compositions of Thyagaraja. Ditto with Dikshitar ad Shyama Sastri.
0 x

RaviSri
Posts: 511
Joined: 10 Apr 2011, 11:31
x 36

#244 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri » 14 Apr 2016, 18:40

Here is an older post where I have written about this set of fakes.
Another is that absurdity 'avatAramenduku AyAsameduku' in harikambhOji which was sung and taught with rare fervour by the mahAvidwAn T.Viswa. His students continue the legacy of singing [and teaching, I suppose] this song, undeterred by T.Brinda's comment on the song.
Apropos Keerthi's post in another thread for which he has given the link the incident involving Brindamma is this:

In 1989, Viswa gave a concert at Brindamma's house. He sang this song 'avatAramendykku' and announced that Thyagaraja had composed it at Chidambaram. I was sitting at Brindamma's feet. When I looked up to her and to Mukthamma who was sitting next to her enquiringly, Brindamma told me, "Thyagarajar inda pATTa Chidambarathile pODalai. avar Wesleyan Universitry pOyirundappo poTTAr (Thyagaraja did not compose this at Chidambaram but composed it when he (meaning Thyagaraja) went to Wesleyan University). Viswa heard this for Brindamma's comment was audible to all. And he asked, "ennakkA?" Mukthamma replied, "oNNum ille, nI vAshi" (Oh, nothing, you play).
1 x

bhakthim dehi
Posts: 491
Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28
x 23
x 24

#245 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi » 14 Apr 2016, 18:52

Both Umayalpuram Krishna and Sundara bhagavathar lived for 80 years. It seems they learnt from Tyagaraja svamy himself for a period of 7-8 years after the latter's sojourn to places like Kancipuram, Thirupati etc. Probably after his demise they could have come under the tutelage of Mahanombuchavadi Venkatasubbaier. Umayapuram brothers tutelage from Tyagaraja svamy cannot be denied in any case.
0 x

Ramasubramanian M.K
Posts: 1207
Joined: 05 May 2009, 08:33
x 1
x 29

#246 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K » 18 Apr 2016, 08:43

Ravisri/Bhakthimdehi: Interesting tidbits. I came across this thread only today. I have been curious to find out if Thygaraja's krithis--the ones acknowledged to be authentic--can be classified chronologically at least by decades--afterall he lived into his eighties and is believed to have been composing since his forties. I am sure there must have vben several research articles by scholars.Can you direct me to some of those articles if they do exist?

MY purpose is to understand how his own maturity is reflected in these krithis.For example I believe(I could be wrong) that most of the vivadi swara krithis or krithis in ragas like balahamsa,Sindhukannada,manohari,vivardhini,etc--must have been in his early decades when Manambuchavadi Venkatasubbier and Walajapet Venkatramana Bhagavathar were his principal disciples and they propagated these krithis thro Conjeevaram Naina Pillai(I am sure RaviSri can correct me on this assumption) whereas the Umayalpuram brothers came towards the end of the saints life and that may explain WHY ARI or MVI did not popularize the earlier songs in vivadhi ragas.

One last question--the harikambodhi krithi Vinatasutha --sung by Alathur bros--is not believed to be authentic Thyagaraja krithi? Is it true?

Viswa Sir used to sing the only Shanmughapriya krithi of Thygaraja-- Vadane(I may be mispronouncing this!!). Is it authentic or even this would be dismissed by Brindamma as a Wesleyan origin song!!!!!!
0 x

Lakshman
Posts: 11245
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52
x 42

#247 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Lakshman » 19 Apr 2016, 03:22

MKR: You might be interested in reading this article.
http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/prakshipta.html
0 x

rshankar
Posts: 13362
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
x 579
x 158

#248 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by rshankar » 19 Apr 2016, 11:21

What does Sri Madhav mean by his comments on vAsudEvayani and sundari nI divya rUpamunu?
0 x

RaviSri
Posts: 511
Joined: 10 Apr 2011, 11:31
x 36

#249 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RaviSri » 19 Apr 2016, 18:15

I have been curious to find out if Thygaraja's krithis--the ones acknowledged to be authentic--can be classified chronologically at least by decades-
Please read my posts 216 and 220 in this very thread.

Naina Pillai learnt Thyagaraja kritis from Wallajapet Krishnaswami Bhagavatar and from Jalatarangam Ramanayya Chetty who learnt a lot of them from Krishnaswamy Bhagavatar. Neither Jalatarangam nor Naina Pillai had anything to do with Manambuchavadi. Regarding the Manohari kriti (paritApamu), it can be said with some authority that it was composed during the last ten days of Thyagaraja's life, since it has reference to his vision of Sri Rama promising him salvation in ten days. Similarly with giripai (sahAnA). In the gAnavAridhi song "dayajUchuTakidi vELa", Thygaraja says that he has completed the work entrusted to him by Sri Rama with complete satisfaction and it was now time for the Lord to shower His Grace upon him (munu nIvAnadichina panula Asakoni nE manaSAraga nidAnamuga salpinAnu). It can therefore be surmised that this song must have been composed almost at the end of his life after he had finished his composing task.

Most vidvans shied away from vivadi raga kritis for whatever reason. Ariyakkudi, Musiri, Semmangudi were the prominent ones among them. Among vivadi ragas only the kritis in nATa, vAgadIshvari and varALi were sung by many vidvans. The Thillaistanam disciples had a huge repertoire of Thyagaraja's vivadi raga kritis, but unfortunately they did not give concerts and it was generally believed that their renditions were too pure and "kachErikku lAyakku paDAdu" (will not suit the concert platform).
the harikambodhi krithi Vinatasutha --sung by Alathur bros--is not believed to be authentic Thyagaraja krithi? Is it true?
That's right, it is a composition of Keertanacharya C.R.Srinivasa Iyengar with the Thyagaraja mudra. but strangely Naina Pillai used to sing this song it seems. B-M never sang this or any other spurious songs of any composer nor did their grandmother.
Viswa Sir used to sing the only Shanmughapriya krithi of Thygaraja-- Vadane(I may be mispronouncing this!!). Is it authentic or even this would be dismissed by Brindamma as a Wesleyan origin song!!!!!!
Alathur Bros also used to sing this Shanmukapriya song "vaddanE vAru lEru". Later Santhanam also used to sing this. This song seems to be authentic, especially as the Thillaistanam disciples have given this song in notation in their book. Brindamma did not like the raga Shanmukapriya. She used to snidely remark, "varALi pADa teriyAdavanga dAn ShanmukapriyA pADuvAnga".
What does Sri Madhav mean by his comments on vAsudEvayani and sundari nI divya rUpamunu?
I dont know how Sambamurthy says that sundari nI divya rUpamu was changed. B-M used to sing it as others sing it. I have not heard any other version. As for "vAsudevayani", yes, this song was changed by GNB. The original version is different. I have learnt the original version which is a lot better than GNB's. The original version starts as 'PMPDNSS' and also is slower. An old group in Trichy, the Sadguru Samajam also used to sing the original way. I have heard that Vedavalli's version is also similar, i.e., different from GNB's.
0 x

rshankar
Posts: 13362
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
x 579
x 158

#250 Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by rshankar » 20 Apr 2016, 14:19

Are there any links for the other version of vAsudEvayani?
0 x

Post Reply