Thyagaraja krithis with corrupted lyrics

Carnatic composers (other than performing vidwans)
drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

Yes VGV- even I saw that word. Am unable to think of a derivation.

chetana
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Post by chetana »

deleted
Last edited by chetana on 10 Apr 2007, 14:43, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

I have posted tyAgarAja kRti enta nErcina - rAga Suddha dhanyAsi (udaya ravi candrika) in our wiki - http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/entenerchina

In the kRti, I need clarification in the anupallavi words 'Sri kAnta svAnta siddhAntamaina mArga cinta'.

The pallavi/anupallavi and the translation is given hereunder -

P enta nErcina enta jUcina
enta vAralaina kAnta dAsulE

A santatambu SrI kAnta svAnta
siddhAntamaina mArga cinta
lEni vAr(enta)

P - No matter how erudite one is and how much one has seen (the World), and howsoever high and mighty one be, all are slaves of women.

A - Those who do not ceaselessly have the thought in the path, (understanding) that Lord viShNu (beloved of lakShmI) to be the Indweller, as their final aim, no matter how erudite one is and how much one has seen the World, and howsoever high and mighty one be, all are slaves of women.

SrI kAnta svAnta siddhAntamu – In the book of TKG, this has been translated as ‘life conducive to righteousness and in consonance with the will of SrI rAma’; in the book of CR, as ‘one who has not bestowed constant thought on the right path that is after the heart of the Lord of Lakshmi’; in the book of TSV/AKG (Tamil) as, ‘those who not dedicate in the path of dhyAna and bhajana of SrIpati’. In my humble opinion, by ‘svAnta’ SrI tyAgarAja seems to refer to one’s own heart and not that of Lord.

I invite suggestions and clarifications.
Last edited by vgvindan on 12 Apr 2007, 21:25, edited 1 time in total.

chetana
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Post by chetana »

I agree with VGV. The TSV/AKG (Tamil) translation is more accurate I believe.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

In the tyAgarAja Kriti - sAmaja vara gamana - rAga hindOLam, the following words occur in caraNa.

vEda SirO mAtRja sapta svara nAdAcala dIpa

UpaniShads are referred as 'vEda ziras'.
Sri tyAgaraja, in many other places, states that the sapta svara are born of nAdOMkAra.

Therefore, the words 'vEda SirO mAtRja' would be translated as 'born of (nAda) OMkAra - mother of upaniShads'. Is OMkAra considered as 'mother of upaniShads'?

mAtR also means 'one who has true knowledge'. In gItA, kRSNa says 'vEdAnta kRt vEda vidEvacAham' (Ch 15.15). Accordingly, by 'vEda SirO mAtR' would be translated as 'paramAtmA' - the true knower of vEda and vEdAnta - and hence - sapta svara born of paramAtma.

As OMkAra and paramAtmA are not same - Sri tyAgarAja calls paramAtmA as OMkAra dhAma' 'OMkAra panjara kIra' - there seems to be a contradiction.

In invite suggestions and clarifications.
Last edited by vgvindan on 16 Apr 2007, 23:27, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

Where is Ayodhya - in UP? What is the solution for the Ayodhya tangle? - Read Sri tyAgarAja's views - http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/nadachinadachi

vijayagopal
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Post by vijayagopal »

Friends,
As in Kanjadalayatakshi, kanja means a lotus. That too of red variety. Aravindam is the same. It means Kanja sayaka is Manmadha.
Pasidi is Gold. It is an accha Telugu word. In the same manner, Zila as a pure old Telugu word can be a nail or an arrow. A similar word muliki is also used for arrow. Pasidi zIla or sIla can be a golden arrow.

In the Telugu version of the song found in the link, the word is shown with a long lA and a short Zi. It must be a mistake. If it at all refers to a stone it has to be a short Zi and a short la. The deergham on la does not mean anything. There is no place for a stone in the context at all.

Naa yeda vancana sEyaka, is "without cheating in my case". Not Please dont deceive me. If it is sEyaku, that meaning can be taken.
That is another matter.

All in all I am not able to understand the reference to Manmadha in this place.
Last edited by vijayagopal on 22 Apr 2007, 14:10, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

vijay,
Keeping in view the context, 'pasiDi', 'zilA' and 'kanja sAyaka' - all belong to the same group. drs has correctly pointed out that these are 'three distractions'; in tamil this is called 'mUvAsai' - 'maN, peN, pon' - 'land' 'woman' and 'gold'. drs has given the corresponding kannada words. Accordingly, only 'gold' - pasiDi is directly relatable. Others - 'land' and 'woman' are indirectly related as 'zilA' and 'kanja sAyaka'. drs has suggested that it should be 'panca sAyaka' for 'cupid' which is an indirect reference to 'woman'.

I request you to refer to the whole kRti given the blog sites referred to (Post No 65).
Therefore, any other meaning, like 'nail' for 'zilA' should be with reference to the context.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

To find out the origin of the word 'serendipity' - http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/badalika-dira

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

Thyagaraja Kriti evarani nirNayinciri - rAga dEvAmRta varShini (Or nAda cintAmaNi) is given hereunder (as this is not yet listed in our wiki).

Please refer to the Notes -

Pallavi

evarani nirNayincirirA ninn(e)Tl(A)rAdhincirirA naravarul(evarani)

Anupallavi

SivuD(a)nO mAdhavuD(a)nO kamala bhavuD(a)nO para-brahmam(a)nO ninn(evarani)

Charanam

Siva mantramunaku ma jIvamu mAdhava mantramunaku rA jIvamu(y)I\
vivaramu telisina ghanulaku mrokkeda vitaraNa guNa tyAgarAja vinuta (evarani)


Meaning

Pallavi : What did the most eminent of humans determine as to who You are? And, how did they worship You?

Anupallavi : What did the most Eminent of humans determine as to who You are – as Lord Siva or as Lord viShNu or as brahmA (One seated in Lotus) or as the Supreme Lord?

Charanam : For the Siva mantra (OM namaSSivAya), ‘ma’ is the soul; for the viShNu mantra (OM NamO nArAyanAya), ‘rA’ is the soul; I salute these great personages who understand this detail. O Lord having the quality of munificience praised by this tyAgarAja!


Notes

Pallavi : nara varu(levarani) – this is how it is given in the book of TKG; in the book of TSV/AKG, it is given as nara varu (evarani); in the book of CR, this is given as naravara (evarani). If nara varu is correct, then it could be connected to pallavi. If nara vara is correct, then it should be treated as an epithet of Lord and cannot be connected to pallavi.

It is stated that Gopalakrishna Bharati (Tamil composer) – a contemporary of tyAgarAja visted latter and sang a song (sabhApatikku) eulogising Lord Siva – that there is no God equal to Lord Siva. It is stated that then and there, SrI tyAgarAja extempore composed this song. If this is true, then ‘nara varulu evarani’ would be the correct rendering.

Anupallavi : kamala bhavuDu – this is how it is given in the books of CR and TSV/AKG. However, in the book of TKG, it is given as kamalA bhavuDu. As the word here means ‘lOtus’, ‘kamala’ is appropriate (kamalA – means lakSmI).

Charanam : ma jIvanamu – In all the books it is given as mA jIvamu. From the discourse referred below, it is clear that the (second) syllable of namazzivAya is referred – ie ma and not mA. Similarly, rA is the second syllable of nArAyaNAya; there rA jIvamu is correct.

Charanam : Siva mantra – mAdhava mantra - Please visit website - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/ ... ntra3.html- for discourse of kAnci paramAcArya candra SEkharEndra sarasvati on tAraka nAma .

Charanam : tyAgarAja vinuta – The caraNa ends with these words in the books of CR and TSV/AKG. However, the word ninnu is given at the end in the book of TKG.

Books referenced are –
CR - The Spiritual Heritage of Tyagaraja by Shri C Ramanujachariar (this kRti is not available in this book)
ATK - Adi Tyagaraja Kirtanams by Shri KV Srinivas Iyengar (Telugu)
TKG - Compositions of Tyagaraja by Shri TK Govinda Rao
TSV/AKG - Sadguru Shri Thyagaraja Swamy Keerthanaigal (Tamil) by Shri TS Vasudevan and Shri AK Gopalan
Last edited by vgvindan on 29 Apr 2007, 16:29, edited 1 time in total.

vijayagopal
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Post by vijayagopal »

Dear Sir, I made it clear that I am not clear about the reference to Manmadha.
Mine is enthusiasm only and not erudition.

As for the present Kriti, most of the people sing it as naravarulu+evarani, which as you say is right.
It can not be a sambodhana to Rama. I dont think I have not heard any rendition where naravara is used.

A similar confusion is there with regard to Durmarga charadhamulaku, and Durmarga charadhamulanu.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

In the kRti pAhi parama dayALO - rAga kApi, Sri tyAgarAja uses the following epithets -
krUra mAnava radhAra and kRpa rAgadE.

In the case of radhAra, vidAra has been given as alternative in the book of TKG.
‘ra’ means ‘fire’; and ‘dhAra’ means ‘rain’; may be SrI tyAgarAja uses this to mean ‘rain that extinguishes the fire called wicked people’.

In case of kRpa rAgadE, in the book of TSV/AKG, it is given as kRpA sAgara.
One of the meanings of ‘rAgada’ is ‘crystal’. ‘Crystal’ comes under the general category of ‘maNi’ - gemstones. Probably, SrI tyAgarAja is using the word in the same sense as ‘wish-crystal’ (cintA maNi) – ‘mercy crystal’.

Can someone clarifiy these words?
Last edited by vgvindan on 05 May 2007, 17:52, edited 1 time in total.

vijayagopal
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Post by vijayagopal »

Govindan Sir,

You will pardon me when I say that your explanation of the words radhAra and ragadE are far fetched.

Tyagayya was more a composer than a poet. He never made use of complicated samAsams, as you know.
Some times he also let go the grammar and other rules.

I am sure krUra mAnava vidAra and kRpA sAgarA are the more appropriate words in this context.
I am sure you will agree with me.
Last edited by vijayagopal on 05 May 2007, 19:35, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

vijay,
While I would be more than happy to use the alternative words - because that is the easy way out, I cannot wish away the words given in the books.

Though the books I refer have been written painstakingly, when certain peculiar words are encountered for which they do not understand the meaning, they gloss over it. I have come across many such instances. One such example is in the kRti 'pAhi kalyANa rAma' - rAga kApi wherein he uses the word 'nAdaidO-tanamu' which means 'my saumAngalyam'.

Regarding zrI tyAgarAja using uncommon samAsams, there are many such instances where he has 'coined' new words - some of the examples are 'vi-vAha' (garuDa), 'bha-rAja' (moon), 'bhESa' (moon), 'upavalAri' (vAmana) etc which, according to Dr. V Raghavan '...may fall within the scope of literary flaws according to alankAra SAstras....' (Introductory Thesis to the Book 'The Spiritual Heritage of Tyagaraja' by Sri C Ramanujachariar.

Therefore, before dismissing the words 'radhAra' and 'rAgada', I would like to invite suggestions.
Last edited by vgvindan on 05 May 2007, 19:58, edited 1 time in total.

vijayagopal
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Post by vijayagopal »

I think there should be a seperate discussion on

The simplicity of Tyagayyas expressions

The dialogue form in his compositions

Unusual Pada prayogams by him

I am not trying to divert the topic. Further discussion the matter is welcome.
As for the pthantarams, I am an enthusiast and not an expert.

I feel Tyaga Brahmam used his vocabulary without being too much aware about it.
The devotion with which he sang takes the front seat.
The feeling in every word he says is too very evident.

I heard a discussion about the usage Dinamai vamas tilaka lAvaNya.
I was told it should have been LAvaNya tilaka.
To me the song is good either way.

I also propose a new thread on the prasna kritis of Tyagaraja.
His questions are of various types and are in various moods.
I am wondering if the swara sthanams of the end points of these questions have any relevance to the mood.

108talas
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Post by 108talas »

With the 'tilaka' on, there is certain lAvaNyam. Hence the lyrics as such seems to be correct. Saint TyAgarAja might have meant that.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

kRti 'dinamaNi vamSa' - rAga harikAmbhOji has been posted in our wiki -
http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/dinamani-vamsa
Hence the lyrics as such seems to be correct. Saint TyAgarAja might have meant that.
vaSishTar vAyAl brahma RSi
Even if Sri tyAgarAja comes alive today, he will have to sing that way only because the tradition says so.

kmrasika
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Post by kmrasika »

vgvindan, I'm sorry to to -post this on a tangent but I wondered whether the kriti, "nI balamA? nAma balamA?" in Anandabhairavi is a composition of tyAgarAja?

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

km,
To the best of my knowledge, there are only three tyAgarAja kRtis in Ananda bhairavi rAga - 'nIkE teliyaka', 'rAma rAmA nI vAramu' and 'kSIra sAgara vihAra'. The kRti mentioned by you is not found.

ignoramus
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Post by ignoramus »

i think there was a commercial release of BMK singing this quite some time back. it had nannu brova nee in abhogi as the 4th song in side A of the cassette and nee balama was the song just prior. but then maybe i am wrong

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

ignoramus
With BMK concert listings , it is prudent to first Check if it is BMK's own composition AND ONLY THEN, set out to see if it is a Tyagaraja or a .......... Krithi.
:P

vageyakara
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Post by vageyakara »

Hallo ignoramus,
Nannu BrOva neekinta taamasamaa-ABHOGI IS a thyaga raja kriti
Ref:www.karnatik.com/c2584.shtml
Ramaraj

ignoramus
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Post by ignoramus »

right coolji. what i wanted to say was nee balama was there in that release of Sangeetha( i think), yes it the case of BMK u cant be sure. but i remember that neebalama was listed as a T composition

annapoorne
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Post by annapoorne »

I have learnt one " nee jesina vichitramu evaru jeyuthura oh paramasambava sri pranatharthihara ' in Neelambari. In the charanam you have ' sishta thyaga raju kashtamu ganama". Has anybody heard this krithi?.Is it Sri Thyagaraja"s composition?

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

The following are the nIlAmbari rAga kRtis of Sri tyAgarAja -
uyyAlalUgavayya - ennaga manasuku - nIkE daya rAka - mATADavEmi -lAliyUgavE - SrI rAma rAma rAma (nIlAmbari or gOpikA vasantam)

The word 'vicitramu' appears in the tyAgarAja kRti 'EmandunE vicitramu' - rAga SrImaNi. There is no other tyAgarAja kRti where the word 'vicitram' appears.
Last edited by vgvindan on 08 May 2007, 17:56, edited 1 time in total.

annapoorne
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Post by annapoorne »

The krithi if I remember goes like this:

Pallavi

nee jesina vichitramu evaru jeyuthura O parama sambava sri pranatharthihara

Anupallavi

raja rajeswara nee rajyamulalo nay jeyu bani ledha O deva deva

Charanam

ashtakshara mulo antargradhamu ga vishnu chittamuna vihasinchina sri

ashtalakshmiki anugahamu seya ledha sishta thyaga raju kashtamu ganama


Can anybody tell me the composer of this krithi.

Vimala Bulusu
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Post by Vimala Bulusu »

annapoorne wrote:The krithi if I remember goes like this:

Pallavi

nee jesina vichitramu evaru jeyuthura O parama sambava sri pranatharthihara

Anupallavi

raja rajeswara nee rajyamulalo nay jeyu bani ledha O deva deva

Charanam

ashtakshara mulo antargradhamu ga vishnu chittamuna vihasinchina sri

ashtalakshmiki anugahamu seya ledha sishta thyaga raju kashtamu ganama


Can anybody tell me the composer of this krithi.
This is a kriti by tyAgarAja in rAg neelaMbari and miSracApu tAL.

The lyric follows.

P.
nI cEyu vicitramulu evaru cEyuduru
O praNatArtiharA !

A.P.
rAjarAjESwarA nI rAjyamulalO
nE jEyu pani ledA O dEva dEva !
C.
ashTakSharamulalO aMtargatamuga
vishNucittamuna vihariMcina Sri
ashTalakShmiki yanugrahamu jeyalEdA
SishTa tyAgarAju kashTamu ghanamA !

Source: tyAgarAja keertanalu published by by TTD

Regards

Vimala

annapoorne
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Joined: 12 Dec 2006, 22:42

Post by annapoorne »

Thanks a lot madam. I was told that this was a rare krithi of Tyagaraja. I have learnt it in 1974-75 when I was in Coimbatore. In the past 30 - 32 years I have not heard it been sung by anyone. Hope to hear somebody's rendition of this krithi soon in our forum.

kmrasika
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Post by kmrasika »

vgvindan & fellow posters, I searched around and here's an article on that Anandabhairavi kriti of tyAgarAja: http://guruvayoorappanvizag.20m.com/whats_new.html

vageyakara
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Post by vageyakara »

Halloannapoorna madam, and k.m.rasika
during 60's I had heard Andhra based vidwans , Sri Volety Garu, Nookala, and Smt.Srirangam Gopalaratnam, singing quite often the Kriti "NeekE teliyaka pOtE "in Anandha Bhairavi.
Ramaraj

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

kmrasika,
I was searching for a pinch of salt.

vijayagopal
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Post by vijayagopal »

Dear Friends!

I was for the hundredth time listening to the Nalinakanti kriti, manavyalakinca.
I got the following doubts.

1) If manavi and Alakinca or both Sanskrit words sandhi would result in manavyAlakinca (Like in ati=Asa= atyasa)
Alakinca is a Telugu word or is it?
It should have been manaviyAlakinca or manavAlakinca(?)
How is it manvyalakinca?

2) The sound of c in manavyalakinca is different from all the other CakArams in the song.
rAmacandruni, gaganacArulai, etc...
The pallavi cakAram is repeated so many times with wrong pronounciation.
Why is it so?

Many people do not care about the sound variation in the chakaram. Why?

Are not the sounds in candamAma and cakravarti different?

3) Interestingly kalpana swaras in this song are sung for the pallavi itself.
After every set the ending is either manvyAlakim......., or manvyAlakincarA.....
It should be the pallavi in it's entirity everytime or else the meaning will be lost.

Kindly enlighten me in this regard.
Last edited by vijayagopal on 12 May 2007, 13:05, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

tyAgarAja kriti - paluku kaNDa cakkera - rAga navarasa kannaDa

The pallavi of this kRti is as under -

paluku kaNDa cakkeranu gErunE panatulAra jUDarE

Meaning
(The words spoken by the Lord would surpass the sweetness of sugar candy; behold, O Maidens!)

The words (paluku) (spoken by the Lord) would surpass (gErunE) (literally ridicule) the (sweetness of) sugar (cakkeranu) candy (kaNDa); behold (jUDarE), O Maidens (paNatulAra)!

paNatulAra – This is how it is given in all the books. In the book of TKG, the meaning derived is ‘maids’ and in the book of TSV/AKG, ‘friends’. However, as per telugu dictionary, ‘paNati’ does not have any such meaning.
Therefore, assuming the meaning is correct, a suitable word for ‘woman’ or similar words is needed here. Looking purely from rhyme point of view, words starting with ‘p’ seems to be appropriate. The nearest word ‘woman’ beginning with 'p' is ‘polati’; accordingly, the word could be polatulAra.
Alternatively, assuming the word ‘paNatulAra’ is correct, then the meaning derived ‘woman’ seems to be wrong. The telugu word ‘paNitamu’ means ‘laid as wager’. It is not clear whether a ‘wager’ can be called ‘paNituDu’ or ‘paNatuDu’. If this is correct, then the only meaning that could be assigned is ‘O wagers’. Considering the previous word ‘gErunE’ which is a comparison, is zrI tyAgarAja, jocularly asking wagers to bet on his statement that the ‘words of zrI rAma beats the sugar candy in sweetness’?. The word ‘jUDarE’, in its colloquial sense, in the present context, could be taken as an invitation for a challenge.

Any suggestions ???
Last edited by vgvindan on 25 Jul 2007, 14:07, edited 1 time in total.

vijayagopal
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Post by vijayagopal »

Dear Friends,
It is a long time since I came to the forum.

Let me add my two cents to the discussion.

In Telugu "Padathi" means a young lady.

I heard my mother sing some songs where Da is replaced by Na.
In that case Padathi becomes PaNathi.
Similarly Pasidi (Gold) in her songs became PasaNi.

In Telangana many people replace Na for Da in many words.

Nadumu is the midriff.
They call it naNumu while talking.
Kadama is the left out or ensuing.
It becomes KaNuma.
I can quote many such words.

Perhaps similarly Tyagaraja called a Padathi as paNati and addressed them paNatulara
Mind you it is not na but Na

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

vijay,
In my further revision I guessed it could be 'paDati' because it is the word nearest to 'paNati'. Thanks for confirming it.

kmrasika
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Post by kmrasika »

Ok, vgvindan Sir: another one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FO4Qkx-KaU . It bears the tyAgarAja mudra but this must be a later discovery. Wondered if anyone had the lyrics to this kr.ti.

Lakshman
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Post by Lakshman »

Clicking on the link gives a message that says "The URL contained a malformed video ID".

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

The ".' at the end of the url was causing the problem. I inserted a space between the URL and the sentence ending "." and it works now.

Lakshman
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Post by Lakshman »

This is the song:

nIlakaNTha niranjana. rAgA: AbhOgi. rUpaka tALA.

P: nIlakaNTha nigrAnugraha phala dAyaka
A: bAlacandra jaTAdhara pancanada paripAla
C1: halAhala viSa pAnamu amrtamugA jEsitivi guNAnubhava tyAgarAju sEvincina

kmrasika
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Post by kmrasika »

Lakshman Sir, thank you for the lyrics.

S.Govindaswamy
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Post by S.Govindaswamy »

Dear Rasikas
In mukhAri rAga kriti tyAgarAja sings
“yOgulu jUcuTandukA bhava
rOgula brOcuTandukA zata
rAga ratna mAlikalu raciJcina tyAga-
rAjuku varamosaguTandukA - (Ela)â€

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

Sri S Govindaswamy and I are interacting much thru mails - a name coincidence? - regarding Thyagaraja Kritis. He analyses my posts regularly and scans them through a 'microscope' pointing out even minior typing errors. I am indeed very grateful to his inputs and suggestions because of which I could correct many errors in my posts.

This particular query - given above - was raised by him with me also. As I could not satisfactorily answer him, he has raised it in the forum. May I venture to amplify his doubt? He wants to know whether Sri Thyagaraja has composed any Ragamalika of 100 rAgas.

As far my knowledge goes, there is not even a single rAgamAlika in Thyagaraja Kritis. People knowledgeable in music may kindly respond.

beginner
Posts: 50
Joined: 02 Apr 2008, 14:50

Post by beginner »

பண்களெனும் ... means rAgAs in tamil. Nothing to do with RagamAlikAs perse.


One more kriti where Saint TyAgarajA says

Raaga ratna malikachE ranjillu nata hari shata...
Last edited by beginner on 19 Jun 2008, 10:26, edited 1 time in total.

ksl
Posts: 299
Joined: 01 Jul 2008, 08:09

Post by ksl »

I completely agree that the lyrics are rama nannu brova ravemako lokaabhi (raama)....but in my humble viewpoint there is nothing wrong in ending with rama nannu brovara because there might be a reason tyagarajar split ra-vemako so blatantly....Its like singing in an accusing tone Oh rama, why dont you come and protect me and ending pleadingly with please come and protect me....It seems to me like one of those geniuses of tyagarajar where he can link abhi-rama nannu brovara. Lokabhi as such is not right because it doesnt have meaning ...so u cannot stop there and have to sing the first line again...but brovara...does end beautifully with a meaning of its own. Of course, thats no excuse to not knowing the primary tone of the kriti and mistaking it for the conclusive tone...

vgvindan
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Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51

Post by vgvindan »

ksl,
Singing as 'rAma nannu brOvarA' may not be wrong; but then singing 'rAvEmakO' as 'vEmakO' or twisting the word as 'prEmatO' amounts to abuse. Who substituted this word 'prEmatO'?

It is this mentality of taking liberties with the composers - where lyrics become mere words to express musical excellence and to undermine the bhAva and the purport is to be deprecated - musicians are only exhibiting their talents at the cost of the composers - and then, probably expiate their sins by conducting ArAdhanas.

Why sing these compositions at all? If music only matters, then let them make their own pallavis and sing it in whatever manner they feel like.

ksl
Posts: 299
Joined: 01 Jul 2008, 08:09

Post by ksl »

vgvindan sir, i am a big fan of yours...I read just a couple of ur posts.....ninga vaartaigalukku kudukura madhippu andha vaarataigalukku kadatchi romba naal aairkum....tyagaraja keertanaigal....tamil ilakkiyam....i wish we could email you in person....Its heartening to know someone so full of knowledge and care in bhava...i have no words...

At the same time i think people are ignorant and careless....its not their intention to mar great compositions....in fact one of my friend claims his tyagaraja kriti book says premato...I completely share your anguish in the matter....but i think people like you who have this gift of knowing and appreciating not only the music but also the bhava behind these compositions should enlighten other people about whats going wrong....people with all humility will accept their mistakes....

I am not a singer...but am a dancer...so i care about meanings...they mean the world to me...but at the same time i dont have the ability to distinguish a misplaced swara...similarly a singer may lack the ability to recognise a missing akshara and therefore the meaning...that doesnt make both of us arrogant...its ignorance...anyone worth his art would like to learn more....and you are doing great by letting people know whats right...

vgovindan
Posts: 1866
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Thyagaraja krithis with corrupted lyrics

Post by vgovindan »

I am reviving this topic after almost three years.

Please refer to kRti 'kshINamai' - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html This kRti has been earlier discussed in this thread.

keerthi said on 22 Feb 2011 -
tyAgarAja has employed padacchEda tacitly, by sometimes using an atita eduppu, for prAsa concordance [gIr-vANa in kSINamai etc.] and in such places force-fitting the word into an Avarta to avoid padacchEda, while sacrificing the prAsa seems like a bad bargain.
In response I said -
in my opinion, there is no need for the word 'gir' at all. Even with 'vANa' the context is sufficiently explained. Therefore, your assumption this word 'gir' was thrust, does not seem to be correct unless there is some valid reason - musically
In response keerthi said -
While you might opine that gIr- isn't required, and the word is complete with vAna , there must be corroboration to be found from the walajapet notebooks.


I had forgotten to mention in my response that the word 'gir' is given in brackets in all the books. Therefore, I assume that the original version of this kRti did not contain this word.

Similar instances of words being given in brackets are -
(1) inta bhAgyamani - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html
(2) valla kAdanaka - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html
(3) SrI raghu kulamandu - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... mandu.html
(4) AragimpavE - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -todi.html
(5) SrI raghu vara - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... uvara.html
(6) cUtAmu rArE (kApi) - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... aeyee.html
(7) toli janmamuna - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html
(8) kAsiccEdE - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html
(9) vENu gAna - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html
(10) nata jana - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html- It is doubtful whether this kRti has been composed by SrI tyAgarAja

In all the above mentioned cases, the words given in brackets seem to be superfluous - including the kRti under discussion 'kshINamai'.

I invite views.

keerthi
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Joined: 12 Oct 2008, 14:10

Re: Thyagaraja krithis with corrupted lyrics

Post by keerthi »

The use of brackets in the instances I mention below, is not to indicate an interpolation, but to indicate that the bracketed part fits into the previuos tAla Avarta.

The following are few examples of tyAgarAja using a split word for the sake of prAsa fidelity. swati tirunal's treatise 'Muhana-prAsa-antya-prAsa-vyavastha' supposedly uses the term 'antarukti' for this phenomenon.

It is quite clear that the bracketed parts are essential to the meaningfulness of the lines in these cases.

1. kSINamai tirugA... [gIr]-vANa-nATaka...

2. AragimpavE... [raghu]-vIra! janakajA-....

3. valla kAdanaka..[nI]valla nATi bhakta..

4. vENugAnalOluni... [ali]-vENulella

5. cUtAmu rArE..[puru]-hUtAdulaku..

6. bhaktuni cAritramu.. [A]-saktilEka...

This is a non-exhaustive list. We could try and compile a more comprehensive one.

Govindan sir, I have only chosen songs where the split happens right at the beginning of an Avarta. There must be many examples where it happens midway.

vgovindan
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Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Thyagaraja krithis with corrupted lyrics

Post by vgovindan »

keerthi,
In regard to kRti 'bhaktuni cAritramu', I request you to kindly read the notes wherein I have mentioned that 'Asakti' does not seem to be a correct word.

Kindly clarify whether all these kRtis can be sung properly without the words given in the brackets or not. If the words given in the brackets is an essential musical component, without which, the kRti cannot be sung properly, then interpolation aspect can be discussed.

srikant1987
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Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23

Re: Thyagaraja krithis with corrupted lyrics

Post by srikant1987 »

Keerthi,

Will [raghu] nandanA of munduvenuka come in this list too?

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