Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Carnatic Musicians
advaitin
Posts: 103
Joined: 07 Dec 2010, 18:05

Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by advaitin »

sivachinta
not heard anything on this one, this is news. any idea whose concert or any such background?

vs_manjunath
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Joined: 29 Sep 2006, 19:37

Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by vs_manjunath »

rajeshnat wrote:Agreed singing with a low pitch is a problem.
I think the pitch of Balamurali must be less than one kattai.
Has PMI accompanied Balamurali ??
Inputs by rasikas r welcome.

sivachinta1965
Posts: 189
Joined: 13 Dec 2007, 11:32

Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by sivachinta1965 »

dear Advaitji

During one concert at Mullakkal where both PMI and PSP were on mridamgam( yet to be confirmed, such a situation where two starwalts sitting face to face!!1). PMI had a big show and PSP waited and when PMI stock was over PSP asked "Can I start? and had another show. I was told that after this incident PMI never challenged PSP and they became good friend!

Somebody to research on ths!

Sivaprasad

Ramasubramanian M.K
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K »

Sivachinta: To my knowledge,PSP and PMI never had a Mridangam duo. As noted by me in the PSP thread,PSP has accompanied PMI on the Kanjira. To my knowledge the first time they played on the stage was for GNB(with Rajamanikkam Pillai on the violin) was in the Shanmukhananda sabha in April 1950(my father was the Secretary at that time and the Sabha's finances were none too sound those days to be able to afford such a "Jama Pandhi" as they call it --my father took a gamble and the sabha membership grew exponentially after the concert. PSP matched sollu for sollu on the Kanjira and PMI did not relent either. I have also narrated in the PSP thread how he played kanjira for Alathur,TNK and PMI at my sister's wedding in Abbotsbury Teynampet in 1954(PSP had just finished accompanying GNB@ vani mahal(about a mile from Abbotsbury) insisted on playing for my father(such were the bonds of friendship in those days between artistes and commoners like us).In all PSP played for over 7 hours that day between mridangm and Kanjira.

PSP's unfulfilled wish till he died was that PMI should play the Kanjira with PSP on the Mridangam. he mentioned it to my father several times and my father despite knowing PMI would not go along, still broached it several times with PMI only to get the polite dismissive laughter from PMI.

Re' PMI's playing for female artistes,my understanding was that when the female vocalists all had high ruthis(4 kattai and higher) PMI found the mridangam sound especially with the chapu(full as well as Half) sounded too shrill. When DKP MLV all lowered their sruthis he was more comfortable. The only mridangist(incidentally had the same Guru Tanjore vaidyanatha Iyer) who played for MS Mami and simultaneously played for the Vocalists of those times was TKMurthy .

PMI was a man of integrity and if he spouted his views on any subject you can bet you can take those views at their face value--no hidden agendas or innuendos. he was supremely confident of his stature and did not mind the controversies swirling round him be it the microphone/recording issue or accompanying female vocalists.

My father used to tell me about PMI's integrity. Whenever my father sounded him about PMI's availabiliy for a concert to accompany a SSI or ARI or GNB if that date was not suitable to him(because of prior engagement in a small town sabha in Tamilnadu) PMI would simply refuse the engagement despite the fact that he could get a higher remuneration from the Bombay sabha and also the small town sabha could easily be persuaded to hold his concert for the following week.. PMI would not even remotely hint that he was free the next week. had he done so the vocalists would have easily rearranged their schedules so that PMI could accompany them. BUT PMI's post card would simply say he is not available because he has accepted a previous engagement--no mention of whom he is playing for or where he is playing . The man's handwriting was sharp and unequivocal as was his temperament!!!My father used to say 9 out of 10 artistes would suggest alternate dates when they are available!! Likewise PMI was a very practical man--after a concert he hated to hang around on the dais when the sycophants come pouring on to the stage-- he used to say 'in Tamil which if roughly translated would be "before the sweat in your palm dries out take your sanmanam--remuneration and run!! This should not be interpreted as a mercenary comment .

More on this aspect in later posts!!

In my opinion so much needs to be written about PMI--my father and myself with the help of my brother who was a disciple of PMI were planning to follow up after our earlier book Musings on Music and Musicians released in 2003 my father's 90th birthday in Chennai We were to start the work in October 2006 but he died on Sept 3,2006 after a two-weeks of indisposition.I have not given up on the idea yet and I am scrounging my family archives to gather materials/scrapboooks. But that is a story that needs to be told.

mohan
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by mohan »

Thanks for sharing these incidents. I have heard of an incident that when PSP first played kanjira with PMI on mrudangam, before the concert started PSP occupied the place of the mrudangam artist on the dias since he was the senior artist. PMI objected saying that the place belongs to the instrument not the artist.

Is this a true story or just an urban myth?

MaheshS
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by MaheshS »

Mohan -

That was Dakshinamurthy Pillai on the Kanjira not PSP. Chembai was the vocalist IIRC. This anecdote features in the Garland series of books.

mohan
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by mohan »

Thanks Mahesh

cacm
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by cacm »

Dear M.K.R.,
BALIAH arranged a wedding concert with PSP on Kanjira & PMI on Mridangam which ALL the artists-MMI & LGJ being the other artists- was hailed as one of the best acc. to the artists themselves!.............VKV

Ramasubramanian M.K
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K »

CACM Thanks for the info--Baliah was a great cm aficionado. On the subject of 'seating" of the Kanjira player,there has been no consistent guideline or practice:

1. When PMI was coming up he and Dakshinamurthy Pillai (DP) had a number of concerts together. PMI has described these "encounters" as baptism under fire. yet they had the best possible relationship. In each of these concerts DP was in the forefront with PMI at the back between the Thambura player and DP--slightly to the front(unlike the Ghatam Players who are traditionally behind --with the vocalist having to strain themselves to look at the Ghatam player!!)). PMI had no qualms about it and accepted the fact that seniority trumped the instrument(kanjira,Moharsing,Ghtam were all considered Upapakkavadyams whereas mridangam on par with Violin was considered Pakkavadyam). Here both the percussionists(PMI and DP) were right-handed.

2. When PSP played the Kanjira opposite PMI ,the convention of the seniority of the Kanjira artist relative to the violinist was maintained so long as the violin accompaniment was not a senior--TNK or Lalgudi--for example in the case of Alathur concert @ my sister's wedding in 1954)-- I had referred to this in the earlier post(#54),where TNK was the violinist PSP sat in the front ahead of TNK facing PMI squarely across..

3. However in the case of the GNB concert in 1950(mentioned in the same post#54) in Bombay where Rajamanikkam Pillai was the violinist -- by protocol PSP would have had to sit behind the violinist as Rajamanikkam Pillai was much senior to PSP. But Rajamanikkam Pillai --the ultimate epitome of grace and dignity--suggested PSP sit ahead of him--the fact that Rajamanikkam Pillai was a towering giant metaphorically and physically dwarfing most musicians incl PSP made this gesture moot but none-the-less commendable!!!

While on this subject of placement of Kanjira player,this has always been a ticklish issue for organisers who do not know whose sensibility is going to be ruffled no matter what they do by way of the dais placement. An anecdote involving PSP as told to me by my father(noted in his book "Musings on Music and Musicians):

Once in the fifties for a concert in Bombay(for Alathur) PSP was to play the mridangam. PMI suggested to my father to give a chance to Swaminatha Pillai(Son of Dakshinamurthy Pillai) for Kanjira. Swaminatha Pillai had the previous day played for another artist (I do not remember). originally PSP alone was to play the Mridangam and Swaminatha Pillai was NOT scheduled to play the Kanjira. My father decided to heed PMI's request(PMI held DP in high reverence despite the fact that in his early days DP had made it tough for PMI and wanted to help DP's son who I believe although not as brilliant as his father,played the Kanjira reasonably well. When my father broached this last minute idea to Alathur they agreed readily seeing no conflict/ As a matter of courtesy my father mentioned this proposal to PSP considering PSP's stature and need for protocol. PSP hesitated for a while and saying this will not happen. My father asked WHY--PSP said he(Swaminatha Pilai) will NEVER agree to sit behind the violinist and will insist on being seated opposite myself(PSP) and that is not acceptable to me--PSP had the highest regard for DP(as PSP's father Palani Muthiah Pilai and DP had the same guru Manpoondia Pillai) and yet he did not have high regard for Swminatha Pillai (for a variety of reasons which PSP explained later). My father approached Swaminatha Pilai and made the proposal who immediately asked to be seated opposite PSP ahead of the violinist--instead of grabbing a chance to play opposite PSP or expressing gratitude for having thought of this idea -- at that time Swaminatha Pillai was not well known despite being DP's son and the few concerts he had were the courtesy of PMI. My father could not accede to his request(did not tell him about PSP's objection as it was obvious and how untenable Swaminatha Pillai's request would seem. My father with the tail between his legs(as he described it to me!!) went back to PSP and told him about the demand and how he(my father) could not accede to it . PSP the gracious man he was did not even attempt a friendly taunt of "I told you so and did not want to see your nose cut) and reassured my father not to feel bad about the incident and went on to narrate how bad Swaminatha Pillai(addicted to alcohol--the son of one of the most pious and dignified artists) behaved and how he had disgraced DP especially in his last days ending with a story about how one day Swaminatha Pilai was brought home absolutely{sauced" late night after an alcoholic binge and left on the steps of DP's house. When DP was returning early morning after an absence of many days,what he saw was his son sprawled across the front doorstep totally unconscious having had too much to drink. DP it seems stroked himself on his bald pate exclaiming in sorrow"Hey Palani Andava what have I done to deserve this from my only son. PSP concluded the anecdote with the observation that this was a poignant event till DP's death.

I am curious to know WHAT is the protocol that the current "senior" artists are following--say if Arun Prakash plays the Mridangam and where would a Senior Kanjira artist(if there was one) sit?

Forumites experinces welcome!!!

mohan
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by mohan »

Ramasubramanian M.K wrote: I am curious to know WHAT is the protocol that the current "senior" artists are following--say if Arun Prakash plays the Mridangam and where would a Senior Kanjira artist(if there was one) sit?
In most concerts these days that feature an upa-pakavAdhyam (kanjira, ghatam or morsingh), that artist is seated slightly behind the mrudangam artist. For a vocal concert, I have never seen a a violinist sitting behind with an upa-pakavAdhyam artist in front.

annamalai
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by annamalai »

I have heard that PMI (Mridangam) and PSP (Kanjira) performed for Ariyakudi a few times.
There is also a very nice photo in the web, Ariyakudi, TNK, PMI, PSP and a young B. Rajam Iyer (nice viboothi) and KVN on Tambura for vocal support for Ariyakudi.
TNK sitting behind PSP.

There is Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar concert in Sangeethapriya - with TN Krishnan, PMI (Mridangam) and PSP (Kanjira) - RTP - Saveri, I think.

Swaminatha Pillai has played Kanjira for Alathur Brothers in many concerts - esp. PMI, Swaminatha Pillai fireworks for Endundi Vedalithivo (Durbar) is very nice.

mohan
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by mohan »

annamalai wrote: There is also a very nice photo in the web, Ariyakudi, TNK, PMI, PSP and a young B. Rajam Iyer (nice viboothi) and KVN on Tambura for vocal support for Ariyakudi.
Image

sureshrtuticorin
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by sureshrtuticorin »

Here is an interesting article:
http://www.carnatica.net/ariyakudi.htm

sivachinta1965
Posts: 189
Joined: 13 Dec 2007, 11:32

Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by sivachinta1965 »

"PMI's playing for female artistes,my understanding was that when the female vocalists all had high ruthis(4 kattai and higher) PMI found the mridangam sound especially with the chapu(full as well as Half) sounded too shrill. When DKP MLV all lowered their sruthis he was more comfortable"

I read somewhere that PMI started mdridagam accompaniment for female artists ( to DKP first) after marriage of his grandson with the grand daughter of DKP

Sivaprasad

veeyens3
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by veeyens3 »

I think PMI's daughter married DKP's son!

anandasangeetham
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by anandasangeetham »

Yes. Sri. PMIs daughter SMt. Lalitha is married to Smt.DKPs son Sri.Iswaran and their daughter is Smt.Nithyashree mahadevan

mahavishnu
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by mahavishnu »

Sorry, DKP's son is Sri I. Sivakumar. Sir Ishwaran is his father and DKP's husband.

anandasangeetham
Posts: 177
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by anandasangeetham »

Thanks Mahavishnu....in a hurry i misquoted the names....

semmu86
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by semmu86 »

vs_manjunath wrote:Has PMI accompanied Balamurali ??
Inputs by rasikas r welcome.
I doubt about him accompanying BMK, but i heard, they had heated exchanges through an organiser. Not sure about the authenticity of this one.

BMK is supposed to have said "If PMI keeps on adjusting the sruthi of his mrudangam while am singing the alApanA, (If you all can notice in some old recordings, PMI and PSP both have this habit of meddling with the mrudangam, while singer is singing), then i will start shaving during his thani avarthanam".... :lol:

rajeshnat
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by rajeshnat »

Semmu86
I do know and have heard this meddling habit of mrudangam by PMI, it is news to me that even PSP has the same habit. One anecdote i heard thru grapevine

TM Thyagarajan (TMT) was performing in a concert with PMI in mrudangam. PMI was constantly cross checking the nAdham of mrudangam during the alapana rendition of TMT. When PMI got his chance of playing tani avartanam ,as a return of thanks TMT took the tambura and was constantly tuning during PMI's tani.

srikant1987
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by srikant1987 »

Strange. Weren't TMT-PMI mostly pre-electronic-shruti? Because in that case, as TMT re-tuned the tambura, PMI would have had to re-tune the mridangam accordingly.

But let us remember that PMI was KVN-the-shruti-demigod's guru. :D

rajeshnat
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by rajeshnat »

shrikant1987
As PMI was constantly tapping the mrudangam during TMT's alapana singing, TMT did the same as he was vexed with PMI's earlier action.

semmu86
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by semmu86 »

Rajesh, you can listen to any old MMI/GNB concert with PSP and you can listen to the constant meddling... Unfortunately (to be brutally honest), they took advantage of their seniority and hence this habit. One can always argue that they are epitome of perfection (which i also dont deny at any cost), but you can hardly hear that meddling when PMI/PSP accompany seniors like iyengArvAL..

advaitin
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Joined: 07 Dec 2010, 18:05

Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by advaitin »

2012 being the centenary year of Palghat Mani Iyer, following events have been so far arranged at the mentioned locations. Future updates should be available at http://www.palghatmaniiyer.org

Chennai - Sri. Umayalpuram Sivaraman @ the Music Academy - Jan 28th.
Mumbai - Sri. Karaikudi Mani @ Shanmukananda sabha - Feb 24th.
Palghat - Sri. Trichy Sankaran - March 2nd
Palghat - Sri. Umayalpuram Sivaraman - March 3rd
Palghat - Sri. Haridwarmangalam A.K. Palanivel and Ustad Zakir Hussain - March 4th

thathwamasi
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by thathwamasi »

Today, I was listening to paramathmudu sung by Alathoor brothers accompanied by Palghat Mani Iyer. He played a brilliant misra nadai in the charanam. It was stunningly beautiful. Just at that time, I saw a friend online and I told him out of complete amazement. "Man..You have to listen to this misram. I think '7' sits much better in Mani Iyer's hands than it does between 6 and 8".

Both of us enjoyed the statement so much that I thought I will share it with fellow Mani Iyer admirers.

Regards
T

advaitin
Posts: 103
Joined: 07 Dec 2010, 18:05

Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by advaitin »

thathwamasi. good one :). Would like to hear that particular song if it is ok to share. In the meanwhile, let me see if I can rustle up
something else in misram, during a tani as well as while playing for the swara renditions.

http://www.mediafire.com/?uk3oua916dcimou

thathwamasi
Posts: 274
Joined: 12 Aug 2006, 01:15

Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by thathwamasi »

@advaitin - Thanks for that clip.

Here it is.

http://www.mediafire.com/?61f5mfc52do92vi

Regards
T

rajeshnat
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by rajeshnat »


Ramasubramanian M.K
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K »

Folks.Here is the celebration detail.Please try to attend.The highlight is going to be the release of a new CD--unique in the sense that it is a virtual 'clinic' on how to accompany for Varnam,krithi,Neraval,swaram--handpicked (from various recordings over his life)--by a team consisting of Palghat Rajamony(son),P.C.Ramakrishna and my brother M.S.Sekhar(both disciples of PMI)-I have seen the list of the concerts/artists from which these execrpts have been compiled--I can assure you it is a veritable feast-- Do buy the CD when released.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________


The Palghat T.S.Mani Iyer Centenary 2012 Committee
invites you to the
Centenary Celebrations of ~:. Mridangam Vidwan Palghat T.S.Mani Iyer
, and release of a special audio CD album of the Maestro ,
at 6.30 pm on Saturday, January 28th 2012 at the The Music Academy, Chennai.
Chief Guest, Sri Gopalkrishna Gandhi, former Governor of West Bengal
Key Sponsors -Sri P.Vijaykumar Reddy and Smt. Preetha Reddy
Co-Sponsors -Sri R.Thyagarajan Sri Nalli Kuppuswamy Chetty Sri Venu Srinivasan
Programme Overleaf
.'
Programme
9.30am to 12.30pm : Technical Sessions
Vidwan Sri T.K. Murthy speaks on Palghat Mani Iyer's greatness Presentation by Sri T.R.Rajamani
(Son and disciple of Palghat Mani lyer)
Presentation by Sri T.R.Rajaram
(Son of Palghat Mani l yer)
Group discussion
6.30pm:
Invocation -Sri Palghat Ramaprasad
Tributes -Vidwan Sri T.N.Krishnan Vidwan Sri Lalgudi Jayaraman Vidwan Sri Vellore Ramabhadran Dr. C.V.Krishnaswami
Honouring of the disciples of Palghat Mani Iyer Release of special audio CD album Address by the Chief Guest, Sri Gopalkrishna Gandhi Vote of thanks
followed by a unique Mrida.,gam solo in Thayambaka style by Sangitha Kalanidhi Dr.Umayalpuram K.Sivaraman

semmu86
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by semmu86 »

Brilliant Line up of events. Should make it

cienu
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by cienu »

Links from "The Hindu" Archives on the Mridangam Maestro
http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/article2834299.ece

randomhari
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Joined: 27 Jan 2012, 03:48

Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by randomhari »

See Thyambaka here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCj8lXEue8M

no wonder why PMI was influenced by this.

Ramasubramanian M.K
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K »

Cienu/Forumites: FYI--the function @ MA is Sat 28th Jan .Nice archives--the FIRST attempt by Hindu Publisher Balaji(who is the Chairperson for the centenary celebs and a devout admirer of PMI). My brother tells me(he is one of the committee members) that K.Balaji has the BEST ALL-ROUND collection of PMI that eeven PMI's sons do not have--most of the selections in the CD to be released are from his collections. CD is a must buy(I have no commercial interest in publishing this!!!)--
One of the archives carries PMI's views on Vocalists Pitch--that affected his playing very much --the progressive degradation of pitch by vocalists aided and abetted by the Mike--he had great difficulty in accompanying younger stalwarts(during his time) like MDR--while he had high regard for MDR's Vidwath,sincerity and dedication,he simply could not produce the sounds that he wanted given MDR's low sruthi(half Kattai)--he used to describe in a lighter vein--in Tamil translated --"I felt I had just removed my mridangam soaked in well water !!!

I am not a mridangist but after hearing the several snippets of the CD to be released, I have to say unambiguosly that PMI's Meettu Chapu Suddham and Nadam is yet to be equaled with all due respects to the TKM/UVS/TS et al.

Kambhoji
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by Kambhoji »

The beauty of PMI's mridangam sound is that even with no stereo or other acoustics, the sound of the mridangam is just so phenomenal. One can listen to the old recordings (recorded often with poor acoustics) on computer with no stereo and one can immediately recognize his playing. Just pure bliss. No other mridagam artist present or past could replicate that sound. The Late C. V. Raman was so fascinated by the sound of PMI mridangam that he sought to analyze the physics of sound and published papers!
The unique style of his playing is also because he believed that only Kappi mridangam can produce authentic thari kita thom. His playing also invoked lot of "azhutham" and the tonal quality of the mridangam is also because of his ability to deploy his shoulder muscles while playing. As Sri Palghat Raghu would remark, he was just like God playing mridangam!

uday_shankar
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by uday_shankar »

Kambhoji wrote:The Late C. V. Raman was so fascinated by the sound of PMI mridangam that he sought to analyze the physics of sound and published papers!
C V Raman's investigation about the mridangam (and in fact its cousins like the tabla, etc.) had nothing to do with PMI and everything to do with a general physicist's curiosity about the acoustics of musical instruments, particularly a physicist with a taste for Carnatic music. Here's a list of all papers published by C V Raman on the subject:

* Musical drums with harmonic overtones , Nature (London), 104 500 (1920).
* The acoustical knowledge of the ancient Hindus , Asutosh Mookerjee Silver Jubilee Volume 2 179-185 (1922).
* Musical instruments and their tones , Handbuch der Physik, 8 354-424 (1927).
* The Indian musical drums , Proc. Indian Acad. Sci. A1 179-188 (1935).

As can be seen, the first publication, which contains a lot of experimental observations about the harmonics of the valandarai, was in 1920 when PMI had not yet made his concert debut and was still a talented but completely unknown kid in Palakkad. Even the last paper, published in 1935 was just around when the old generation of Azhaganambi Pillai and Dakshinamoorthy Pillai gave way to the new phenomenon on the block that was PMI.

My point is that while idolizing our heroes, it would be good to be as factual as we can. Otherwise we'll be propagating myths and untruths.

Kambhoji
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by Kambhoji »

"My point is that while idolizing our heroes, it would be good to be as factual as we can. Otherwise we'll be propagating myths and untruths."

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/article2834201.ece

It is true that Sir C. V. Raman published the first paper in 1920. From my interactions with others, my statement about some of his later papers is based upon what I heard from his contemporaries and information passed on to their generations. I was not born in that era. There is no intention to about propagate myths and untruths.

uday_shankar
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by uday_shankar »

Kambhoji, I don't know why the article from the Hindu by Sriram Parasuram is cited. It makes no reference to C V Raman or anything else that's unverifiable. Most of us did not live in that era but it still behooves us to write only those things that we're sure of. As for his "later papers", I quote below from the conclusion of the last published paper on the subject that C V Raman wrote, "Indian musical drums , Proc. Indian Acad. Sci. A1 179-188 (1935)":

"...The paper gives a detailed description of the results obtained by the author in the year 1919..."

There's no reference anywhere to which artists' collaboration Raman might have sought to do the experiments. Perhaps it is somebody local in Calcutta where Raman lived at the time.

It is a fascinating paper that describes, among other things, the differences in the modes of vibration between a chappu and an arai chappu qualitatively but in technical language. For me it clarified exactly why the arai chappu generates the second harmonic or the mel Sa compared to the the normal chappu. For those interested:

http://www.mridangam.info/~chidu/cvraman/cvr-ias.html

Kambhoji
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by Kambhoji »

As stated before, what I have written regarding PMI and Sir CVR is based on my interactions with his later disciples. I did not consider it necessary to verify whether what was told to me was absolute truth since there are certain things that you can only trust but not verify especialy certain historial events. And I am not a physicist. And Rasikas forum is not a scientific journal.
There is no question that Sir CVR published his first paper on the subject in 1919. But, if one reads the numerous commentaries on PMI (like the Hindu article I cited as an example), it is clear that he gave mridangam a special status that it has today. And it would appear to be logical to think (like I did) that physicists like Sir CVR may have been inspired by mridangists including PMI and others especially considering the fact PMI was beginning to make a mark very early in his childhood (PMI was born in 1912). The website dedicated to PMI has many interesting anecdotes going back to his early days.

http://palghatmaniiyer.org/

I could be wrong that Sir CVR was inspired by PMI for that matter by anyone who played the instrument including Dakshinamoorthy piallai or Azhakanambi Pillai. It is possible that Sir CVR was inspired by just the way the mridangam was structured and perhaps he may even been inspired by the artisans who built the instrument. And in scientific publications, Sir CVR just focused on the science of sound and not write about who inspired him to research on it. He may not have been interested in CM for that matter. I dont know. May be there are others who may have more knowledge about this.

Although not a physicist, my own curiosity about mridangam was triggered by its definition "The mridangam is a double-sided drum whose body is usually made using a hollowed piece of jackfruit wood about an inch thick" and my question to the mridangists I interacted with was whether and how the vibrations produced by the hitting the left side travel to the valanthalai and vice versa in a hollow body. I was also curious whether the vibration traveled straight through the hollow body or whether it did reflect off the walls and whether this had any effect on the tonal quality of the mridangam. This was what led to PMI and Sir CVR etc.

mahavishnu
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by mahavishnu »

And I am not a physicist. And Rasikas forum is not a scientific journal.
Kamboji, While these may both be true, we cannot make up apocryphal stories. It may well have been that PMI inspired CVR, but we have no evidence of that in anything that you have cited (written or hearsay). I still do not see how the description of the double-headed drum in the last paragraph led you uniquely to PMI.

I appreciate your intentions and even your admiration of PMI, but we need to be more careful in reporting history. As Uday warns, making up myths (which is a huge problem in our oral history and culture that is so fond of obsequiousness) does not add to or diminish value from greats like PMI or CVR.
He may not have been interested in CM for that matter. I dont know. May be there are others who may have more knowledge about this.
Please keep in mind that Sir CVR's family has been involved in CM for a long time. This interest is seen even in the following generation. For e.g, Smt Vidya Shankar (sister of the other Nobel laureate Subramanyam Chandrasekar and niece of CVR) was a noted vainika and musicologist.

My grandfather (Sri Kalpathi Ramanathan, PMI's first disciple) was very close to PMI in the 1920s and early 30s. To the best of my knowledge, he did not describe any functional relationship between CVR's research and PMI. It is highly unlikely that later disciples of PMI (do you mean the generation of Tanjore Ramadas/P Sreenivasan or even the earlier generation Sri Kamalakar Rao) would have any better knowledge of this interaction that took place when they were possibly toddlers, if that.

That said, the only people I know that have studied the harmonics of the arrai-chapu since CVR are Sri UKS in collaboration with Dr. T. Ramasami (formerly of CLRI, Chennai and the Dept of Science & Technology). However, much of their work has focussed on how to achieve the ideal arrai-chapu harmonic with a variety of synthetic/polymer-based materials. I attended an excellent lec-dem on theirs at KGS in Dec 2010. It is so much easier doing an FFT in 2010 than in 1919, that's for sure.

More details here: http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/article911305.ece and http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/articl ... epage=true and http://www.mridangams.com/2007/08/scien ... angam.html

Ramasubramanian M.K
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K »

Re: the remark about "myths" and exaggerations. PMI himself in one of his speeches acknowledged this:
PMI was talking about great mridangam Artists in the late Nineteenth and early Twentieth Century.
One of them was Tanjore Narayanaswami Appa about whom legend grew "exponentially". PMI said he had only heard of Narayanaswami Appa but never heard him play. he narrates an incident--which PMI believed to be true--it appears when Narayanaswami Appa visited Ramanathapuram, the Maharaja(Ramanathapuram) heard about his fame and sent an invitation to visit the Palace so that the Raja could have an opportunity to hear him. It was a Friday I believe. Narayanaswami Appa politely declined saying that on Friday he has his usual Bhajans and if the King so desires he is welcome to attend.
PMI while saying this illustrates how principled Narayanswami Appa was in not going after Sanmanams,we should not go overboard--one of the myths was that he used to wear his Silk Dhoti in such a manner that the border would be touching the floor/road when he walks,but he would not bend to pick the end up lest the soft hands become 'rough"( in Tamil Kaikku Mridutvam-softness- Poi Vidum") if it touches the ground.

PMI ended the anecdote saying in Tamil " Konjamai Nadandadai mihai Paduthi Solluva)( people will exaggerate small incidents to glorify the person)! Also in jest he said "Some people say a Mridangist played like Nandikeswarar--we do not know if these people ever heard Nandikeswarar play!!!".

Another remarkable quality of PMI is his down-to-earth philosophy. My father used to say, PMI felt that after the concert when sycophants come rushing to express their appreciation and go overboard, his advice was in Tamil--Ullangaiyile EEram poradukku munne sanmanathai vangi kondu medayile irundu poyidanam("Before the sweat on the palm dries up-- take your remuneration and exit the stage!!).

thathwamasi
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by thathwamasi »

Dear Uday_Shankar, Kambhoji and Mahavishnu

After reading the above posts, I have to say my view on this. Yes. Dr. C V Raman published his papers prior to his interaction with PMI. But Im sure Kambhoji's intention was not to spread myths. Sometimes facts get dissolved. For example, in the above post, its mentioned that in 1920, PMI hasn't even made his concert debut, which was untrue. I clarified it with PMI family. He made his debut in 1919, accompanying an artist named Kochammal. Now I will not accuse whoever wrote about 1920 as spreading myths and untruth. It was a simple mistake.

Regarding CVR and PMI interactions, the peak of these interactions were in 1940's and 1950's when PMI went to Bangalore, exclusively for assisting CVR's research. CVR is a very big admirer of PMI's mridangam playing and has also said that PMI has the perfect technique to extract the best sound of the instrument. And CVR also acknowledged that PMI was the first to actually sculpt the inner walls of the mridangam in the same shape as the outer wall,which earlier used to be different: i.e. the inner wall was just a cylinder. And also said that being a Non-Physicist, PMI had the intuition to conceive of a sound which would be enriched by changing this mechanics.

All the above mentioned information in my post are authenticated by the family of Palghat Mani Iyer. I confirmed it with them over the phone before posting it here.

Regards
T

uday_shankar
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by uday_shankar »

thathwamasi,

Thanks for the clarification.

My apologies to kamboji - I am definitely guilty of insinuating that he was spreading myths.

Facts may get "dissolved" but it is still not good idea to interchange cause and effect. The cause for CVR's interest in and interactions with PMI was his inherent interest mridangam and tabla. It was not, as kamboji has insinuated, as if PMI triggered this interest and caused him to publish all those papers. Read the papers, they emphasize equally the parallel universe of the tabla. The later interactions with PMI were an interesting sequel to his original researches.

If I hadn't raised this issue, and you had not verified with the PMI family, we would not have had this level of clarity in this matter. And such clarity is very important to those of us who dwell a little in the world of science and a little in the world of music.

And I apologize to all concered for spreading the "myth" that he had not yet made his concert debut in 1920. I usually don't spread myths and I am very open to being proven wrong :).

thathwamasi
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by thathwamasi »

hahaha @uday_shankar - Amen.

I completely agree with you on the issue of clarity. It is very true that CVR and his interests in Mridangam predates PMI. I enjoyed your tongue in cheek last paragraph.

Regards
T

mahavishnu
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by mahavishnu »

Regarding CVR and PMI interactions, the peak of these interactions were in 1940's and 1950's when PMI went to Bangalore, exclusively for assisting CVR's research.
That makes a lot of sense in the historical context. For the record, CVR did not publish anything on the mridangam after 1935, that is not to say that he did not experiment on the topic after that ...

Thathwamasi, thank you for taking the time to clarify things with the PMI family. As Uday already pointed out, we have much more clarity on this by being more diligent.

uday_shankar
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by uday_shankar »

mahavishnu wrote:I still do not see how the description of the double-headed drum in the last paragraph led you uniquely to PMI
Ramesh, I find myself in the strange role of coming to kamboji's rescue :). You're the mrdangam expert but here's my non-mrdangist speculation - for me Palghat Mani Iyer's playing represents one of the most balanced use of the thoppi and valandharai. Right from his finishing act of tuning up with that characteristic "dhu-doom dhu-doom dhu-doom", it's the stuff of goosebumps. It is this particular distinctive tone, the deep thoppi followed instantaneously by the nam (I hope I'm using the right term), echoed to some extent by Raghu sir who developed his own unique tone and style, that immediately distinguishes the "Mani Iyer tone" to lay ears and makes everyone sit up in awe. So back to the "double-headed hollow drum" - as a mridangam player, does any operation on the thoppi affect the tonality of the valandharai in obvious and/or subtle ways ?

mahavishnu
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by mahavishnu »

Uday, the "thom" sound (non-damped full strike on the base of the thoppi) is played without reference to valanthalai in the Tanjore school. When producing this sound, the two hands are not independently controlled, but their movements are not phase-locked in any way.

But the same sound is represented in combination with the valanthalai in the Pudukkottai school. So, even playing "tha thi thom nam" in the Pudukottai school requires bimanual action. Trichy Sankaran considers this to be the paradigmatic difference in technique between the two schools. See this clip from his last year's demo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U6M5elXYvQ (it is only visible to those with this link).
does any operation on the thoppi affect the tonality of the valandharai in obvious and/or subtle ways ?
One could say that how the thoppi and valanthalai interact is the basis of the "nadham" of the mridangam. An arrai chapu with the thoppi closed will sound different from one with the resonant open thoppi. The thoppi can serve to damp the sustained oscillations in the "ringing" of the valanthalai, can enhance the ring or mute it. All this can be achieved just by placing the hand on various locations of the thoppi without any overt movement (by the right people, of course).

In this clip of PMI http://soundcloud.com/ramesh-balasubram ... mo/s-ZbPv7 you will see that most of the chapu (tham) strokes are not accompanied by any overt thoppi activity, but the "dhin" phrase (played with the index finger and ring finger on the corner of the soru/blackspot) is almost always accompanied by a thom on the open thoppi. I would say that this is a defining characteristic of PMI's nadham. No one has managed to replicate this effect.

Here the "dhin" sounds richer because of the use of the open thoppi (especially see after 0:40 in the clip). At this point 0:45 and later he uses a gumki-esque phrase (not common in his style) to bring out the different tones that are possible in the dhin, a very good example of how the thoppi influences the valanthalai sound.

On a different note, the higher harmonics that CV Raman described for the arrai chappu are less obvious in a kappi mridangam. A kuchi mridangam like what UKS uses today will produce a longer and more resonant ringing arrai chappu. UKS's technician, Johnson is exceptional good at customizing mridangams for that style.

I am a huge fan of kappi mridangams, having I learned on one myself. But it is very hard to find good kappi makers these days (people like Selvam's family being the exception).

Bhaktavatsalam and Patri Satish kumar have tweaked and engineered especially sharp arrai chappus in their instruments, in the former's case probably more than is required, but that is another discussion.

uday_shankar
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by uday_shankar »

Thanks Ramesh for the insights. As regards the clarity of the arrai chappu in Kuchi mridangams it was quite evident to me based on the informal observations. Another thing about the Kuchi mrdangam, to my ears, is that the vibration of its valandharai has a pleasant "graininess" and a longer sustain to it, at the right hands of course. This "graininess" has an analogy to the tambura's jiva - without the properly adjusted jiva, which make the vibrating string just kiss the bridge at another point during vibration, the tambura will not have its characteristically pleasant "grainy" sound. This process also helps in generating the upper partials and perhaps a similar principle applies to the kuchi mridangam and its ability to generate clearer upper partials during array chappu. The mridangist who seems to have perfected best the art of sustained, "grainy" vibration of the valandharai seems to have been C S Murugaboopathy. On a separate note, I've listened to PSP recordings of old and they say he played a kappi mridangam too but somehow I can hear the same "grainy" type of tone in his playing. How did he manage that and what am I missing ?

Nick H
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by Nick H »

Amazing insights and technical knowledge from you guys! Really fascinating.

I think it is right to say that the western-drum equivalent of kutchi is snare where the skin vibrates against wire coils underneath it.
I've listened to PSP recordings of old and they say he played a kappi mridangam too but somehow I can hear the same "grainy" type of tone in his playing. How did he manage that and what am I missing ?
A Kapi mridangam can give nadam almost like tabla, and it may include some vibration from the tiny stones between the skins providing that snare effect. I haven't handled many kapi mridangams, but the ones that I have seen are either either extremely easy to get sound from, or very, very hard. I remember one, among the latter, which seemed to have very heavy skins which were, no doubt, part of its engineering as required by the mridangist that it belonged to.

Let me have a small quibble, half a quibble only, about "arrai" chappu. chappu should sound the same whether it is full or half. In fact, however much right-and-proper insistence there may be in the classroom that the little-finger tip must be exactly here, or exactly there, the teacher, on stage, may place it almost anywhere. Having moved through discipline to skill, they arrive at a point where the mridangam will do whatever they ask, however they ask it!

semmu86
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by semmu86 »

uday_shankar wrote:I've listened to PSP recordings of old and they say he played a kappi mridangam too but somehow I can hear the same "grainy" type of tone in his playing. How did he manage that and what am I missing ?
Its got more to do with the nAdham in their hands, rather than in the vAdhyam. Regarding the mastery of "aRai chApu" in thooL (kappi) vAdhyam, you may please listen to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaniMI9QF6s

Esp do not miss from 0:47 to 0:57. How UKS Sir produces this quality of "arai chApu " in a thooL vAdhyam with such clarity in a mike-less era for mrudangam is something which will continue to amaze us....

mahavishnu
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Re: Palghat T.S. Mani Iyer

Post by mahavishnu »

I agree with Semmu, a lot of these differences between instrument types dissolved at the hands of people like PSP.

Semmu, Thanks for that link. It is amazing how UKS has internalized so many PMI sollus and made them his own.

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