N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Carnatic Musicians
kvchellappa
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Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by kvchellappa »

Love is the most sacred of emotions and has been covered in our scriptures and puranas even with gods and goddesses with abandon. The prudish views are of later influence. Our poets and musicians are no exception and there is nothing to feel awkward about what is nature's unreserved gift.

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

@'Sri.Vasanthakokilam '-> I do not find any trace of neelambari as you mention and in the final (third) stanza i remember just kamaj . May be experts like Srinath and Varsha may be able to help
Conservative upbringing has nothing to do with my criticism of this particular poem by Barathy. When we carefully read the poem, the 'proposal' comes in second and third stanza only. and how we understand is left to our mental makeup I still hold the opinion that it is the reader who has to correctly understand and interpret the sentiment expressed and it is the poet's fault to have given scope for a 'common' interpretation . I dont think, in any decent society, mothers are objects of 'matrimonial proposal'. Even in the West? of Mother Mary about whom Barathy has given a poem(?)/ Let us revert back to Music
------------------
Can we trace NCV song of Koteeswara Iyer? Namakkal Kavigyar on Gandhiji ( sanga naadham ketkuthu) , Barathy song on Mother India ( Pozhuthu pularnthathu..Boopaalam )?
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NCV became famous right from 1938 ( ref: V.Sriram article on the 1938 music academy matters). She was 18 then. Her first or second film was with the renowned musician V.V.Sadagopan. ( Venuganam?) (1940). She must have definitely given great many concerts in Chennai and Nellai. and Tanjore areas during the decade 1940-1950.
Are there no veterans to give their reminiscences about her during the dacade? No one to share more songs by her than alkready given by saregama and others? Was she such an ' unmentionable' artiste? Has even Kalki given atleast an oblique reference to her, anywhere? It is puzzling. I am not talking about anything except her musical performances. How wonderful it would have been if MS and NCV had sung a few songs together for gramaphone company? ( something like 'Imaginary Conversations')
--------------------------

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

@k.v.chellappa-> Sir, I am completely out of touch with sanskrit originals and even thamizh translations of the great epics Valmiki Ramayana, Mahabaratham and of course Srimath Bagavatham. I dont think, of the thousands and thousands of lines there, there are many which speak of 'carnal' love explicitly. Our Thamizh classic Silappathikaram completely avoids such references even in the PukAr kAandam... We have some fine literary traditions... Of course, coarse minds, there always have been , like the creator of Devi Bagavatham, which would make even a western hippie blush at and our konark sculpture. Art is meant for uplifting the common people. Pure music ( even without lyrics as in HM classical, and later Western classical) , Architecture ( of Gothic school) have that potential. The less of visual or verbal voluptuousness, the better for Art. Also, less of Ego consciousness. .. All that apart, our cultural understanding of even family life is different from the focus on 'pleasure' but on social duty.(saha dharmini, dharma pathni) . If that is so even for normal gruhasthas, how much more so, the reverence should be to Mother Goddess? CNAnnadurai perhaops had a valid point in his 'kambarasam'' about descriptions of 'Sitha piraattiyaar.'.
'Carnal love' is just animal level. definitely different from Romantic bond and even Platonic love. ' Quoting a famous passage 'What the heart lifts above and the heavens reject not...The desire of the moth for the star , of the night for the morrow, the devotion to something afar from our sphere of sorrow'.
indian tradition is for the lady to pine for the Lord and not the other way round. Now.. pardon me for this 'literary' and 'cultural' detour. Let us talk of N.C.Vasantahkokilam's music.

CRama
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by CRama »

RSR wrote: 03 Oct 2017, 16:09 @k.v.chellappa-> Let us talk of N.C.Vasantahkokilam's music.
Yes. NCV's music. It is much intriguing that we are not able to trace even a radio recording other than the large number of 78 rpm. records. I will like to share one of my experiences in searching for NCV concert. When I was in Mumbai, I acquainted with a person who was collecting music concerts. He gave me one concert labelled as NCV concert. When I heard it, it was M.S.Sheela's concert. The same person introduced me to another young techie in Chembur who told that he has got NCV concert. That person played lot of hide and seek with me and then I left him concluding that he is just befooling me.

Today only I happened to see the complete list of NCV records referred to in this thread. I could hear a few songs which I was not having. Thanks for taking the pains to collect them. Two songs from that list- one in Manirangu and another song could not be played. There is one song Sattileni which is in Poorvikalyani- composition of Ponniah Pillai. This seems to be from a radio or live concert as there is considerable difference in the voice texture and recording quality. Even this song is incomplete. The song is listed as Kasiramakriya and some lament that the pidis of this ragam has since been changed and it is told as Panthuvarali. Actually what is sung is Poorvikalyani as the song is presented by all the musicians. That may be edited.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by vasanthakokilam »

RSR wrote: 03 Oct 2017, 15:44 @'Sri.Vasanthakokilam '-> I do not find any trace of neelambari as you mention and in the final (third) stanza i remember just kamaj .
Let us make sure we are all listening to the same link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxkyKHMzPJM

The initial instrumental prelude is Tilang. nIlAmbari is evident at 1:44 to 1:51 when singing 'ammA' isn't it? (https://youtu.be/IxkyKHMzPJM?t=103)

(btw, the first stanza following the musical interlude does not sound like Tilang)

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

@Sri.'vasanthakokilam'. Yes Sir. It is a rather complex musical composition, As I hum the song. I found similarity with other famous songs like 'Santhi Nilava vendum 'by DKP,'Shyamasundara' by MS, 'Yadhunandhana' by MS. and was struck by the unique rendering by NCV. of the stanza. perhaps not easy to set to music . Primarily the first stanza is Tilang and may have faint shades of the other ragam. ( I may be wrong). Similarly, the second stanza also is not anything like the usual bimplas. Again, due to difficulty in giving music to the poem's lines.That is why it has been very special song for me. As for the last stanza, after finishing, I find that it leads me seamlessly to 'apadhooru '. ! when humming. You are the better judge. I wonder who set it to music!

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

@CRama-> Respected Sir, I have been an avid follower of your posts. I liked your article in Sruthi on Smt.MS much. You had given a photostat copy. May I type it and place in my website for MS? ..
I am working on sites devoted to MS, DKP and NCV. . and just recently began a site for MLV songs. ( only the best). with lyrics and other information.(as prompted by Srinath and Varsha_ji ) The NCV SITE is yet to be brought to final shape. So difficult to get the lyrics as sung by her. correctly. Got diverted to DKP site.
Yes Sir, You are right. 'Sathilenu' upload is by Raju Asokan. and he opines that the raga mentioned by him is right. Panthuvarali, also is mentioned by some. Poorvikalyani may be the correct ragam. I have given the tube link in the page. I request you to add your comment in tube page so that other listeners can get a better idea. He has mentioned that it was a from an old tape. If there are other songs not in our list, they will be precious.
I did not want to miss any link to NCV , as the concerts are so rare to get as you have pointed out. That is why I have added it. Can improve gradually. .
Some of the pages are yet to be finalized. They may even be blank now. Lyrics have to be added.
I am all appreciation and amazement at your on-going project of writing about all the great artistes from Kerala, who reside and resonate in Kerala itself. Best Regards.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Primarily the first stanza is Tilang and may have faint shades of the other ragam.
Definitely get a second and third opinion and hopefully other members will pitch in but I do not think the first stanza is 'Tilang with a faint shades of other ragas'. I am going the other way. I hear Tilang in the instrumental prelude and not much after that.
But starting at 49 seconds, https://youtu.be/IxkyKHMzPJM?t=49
that is not Tilang, is it? It is somewhere in the complex of Nilambari, Shankarabharanam, may be wandering a bit into Harikambodhi, YKK (just a trace) etc.
Similarly, as I wrote above, starting at 1:44 nIlambari stamp is quite evident https://youtu.be/IxkyKHMzPJM?t=103

Others please chime in so we can conclude this without too much ambiguity

varsha
Posts: 1978
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by varsha »

It is much intriguing that we are not able to trace even a radio recording other than
....
https://archive.org/details/NCVasanthak ... TyAgarAja-

CRama
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by CRama »

Varsha, I can not thank you enough for the Emijesite. Had never heard a lengthy rendering by NCV. By any chance, do have you the rest of the songs in that concert. I am greedy when it comes to music. Pardon me.

varsha
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by varsha »

Pl keep watching this space.
I will let you know when I have exhausted :D

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

Varsha_ji is GREAT. He will surely give us many more from concert pieces. Awaiting more from him.
---
I just want to share the moments in NCV classic 'pillaippirAyatthile'. ( whatever be the ragam). First stanza.
'veLLai malaranaimEl avaL veenaiyum kaiyum virintha mukamalar' . When she repeats the above lines, .
வெள்ளை மலரணைமேல்-அவள்
வீணையும் கையும் விரிந்த முகமலர்
வெள்ளை மலரணைமேல்-அவள்
வீணையும் கையும் விரிந்த முகமலர்
.wonderful

vasanthakokilam
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by vasanthakokilam »

CRama wrote: 04 Oct 2017, 12:54 Varsha, I can not thank you enough for the Emijesite. Had never heard a lengthy rendering by NCV. By any chance, do have you the rest of the songs in that concert. I am greedy when it comes to music. Pardon me.
Indeed. Thanks Varsha.
The violin is sparkling as well, isn't it? Shadowing NCV excellently in an understated fashion to provide a wholesome listening experience. The high pitch violin tone is so clean.


RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

Chennai Music season is approaching. and there will be many stalls opened during the festival where we can get very fine dvd/cd packs of all the greats in Carnatic music. May I share the information about a fine CD dedicated to wonderful songs by N.C.Vasanthakokilam? It contains the following songs. 1) yen paLLi kondeerayya ( mohanam)
2) mahAlakshmi jaganmAthA (sankarabaranam) 3) antharangamellAm ( vachaspathi) 4) pAmAlaikku iNai undo (harikambodhi)
5) needhayaraadhaa (vasanthabairavi) 6) sundari nannindarilo ( begada) 7) Anandha natanam AdinaaL ( kamboji) 8) sArasadhalanayanaA (KAMAJ) 9) yelAvathAramu (muhari) 10) Maaye ( Tharangini) 11) thanthai thaay irunthaal (shanmugapriya). It is a saregama release. CDNF 147 909 . Available from amazon(india) on line too. These are among the BEST by NCV.

varsha
Posts: 1978
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by varsha »

http://www.mediafire.com/?nohu4q7ze0b3n

I have uploaded all available material on NCV . Would like tracks numbered 1,2 etc to be identified .
And corrections with others too are welcome.
thanks in advance

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

varsha_ji, Fantastic work. THANK YOU. I am beginning the work of identifying the numbered songs. Hope to complete the correct identification within a week. Top priority ,as I am hoping that I may find the songs that I have been longing to locate may be there. . ( andha naaL ini varumo ?...is a 'hamsanaadham ragam' ). the other ' named ' songs are in the vasanthakokilam site. https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanthakokilam/home/10
Best Regards

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

quoting a para from SrinathK's post in another thread with approval
"Now let's look at NC Vasanthakokilam - listen to mAyE tvam yAhi at 17:50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1CkdJ9w9KY and with how much power she hits the upper N2 (M1 in madhyama shruti) in guruguhOdayE (it's almost like her voice explodes like TR Mahalingam's). If you pause and listen closely, there seems to be just a bit of strain on sudhA -- that's not strain, that's a register bridge. This is as good as it can ever get.
(voice range..thread)

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

varsha_ji, here are SOME song openings : 06 - யாரோ வந்தென்னை ஆசை காட்டி(yaaro vandhennai aasai kaatti)
07 - பாங்கான சோலை அலங்காரம் (paangaana solai alankaaram)
08 - பாரதி பாட்டெனும் பைந்தமிழ் (barathi paattenum painthamizh)
09 - குழலோசை கேட்குதம்மா (kuzhlosai ketkuthamaa).

varsha
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by varsha »

RSR
Thanks Sir

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

varsha_ji , Just now went through the list . There are two or three Dhikshithar kruthis ( very likely to be concert songs). Very rare indeed. . ....(Nitthiraiyil vandhu nenjam kudi konda ' song is Jonpuri.) There are about six or seven songs which I see for the first time. The link to n.c.vasanthakokilam songs ( streaminjg and buying) on per song basis will be very useful to the diaspora
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss ... thakokilam
She has sung 'eppo varuvaaro' jonpuri in film with slight change in lyrics. 'Also
'a 78 rpm record of Barathy's poem doing the rounds now ' Asai mukam marandhu poache' in jonpuri.)(?) . There must be atleast 20 more records and many many concerts which we are on the verge of losing irrevocably . without people like you to retrieve them from the past . Keep up the GREAT WORK. ( I am plain RSR , no 'sir' needed)

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

The link http://www.worldcat.org/title/polatu-pu ... c/48858806 is for two great songs of Subramanya Barathy in 78 rpm record by N.CVasanthakokilam. a) pozhuthu pularnthathu yaam seytha thavatthaal. (ragam boopaaLam) b) paarukkulle nalla naadu . ( Pāratiyār; N C Vasanthakokilam; James Rubin Collection of Indian Classical Music.). Is it possible for any of our forum members residing in USA to get the mp3 and share?

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

very happy to share a rare find by varsha_ji of vintage NCV song ( composer Patnam Subramanya Iyer) entha nerchina (saveri) . https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... manya-iyer

CRama
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by CRama »

RSR, The song Entanerchina is not playing.

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

@99-> CRama, Respected Sir, Excuse me for the lapse. I have just now created the link.
I am not sure if this is really NCV vintage (however, very likely to be). Kindly test the link in the page and let me know. I was confused by almost identical opening line 'entha nerchina' by Thyagaraja Swami and this song by Patnam Subramanya Iyer. There was confusion in the ragam also
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... thyagaraja
( DKP enttha nerchina in Udhaya Ravichandrika ( as per sangeethapriya/ suddha dhanyasi)
and the NCV song in Saveri.
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... manya-iyer
(picosong)
I am not sure. I need your help. I will take your help for a few more songs , magically unearthed and given by varsha_ji. ( one Todi song from a concert? and a few more ) Best Regards.

Lakshman
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Lakshman »

RSR: I had already sent you an email explaining the two songs that start with enta nErcinA. The shuddhadhanyAsi /udayaravicandrikA song is by Tyagaraja and the sAvEri song is by Patnam Subramania Iyer. There is no need for any doubt here. Hope others will confirm this. Thanks.

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

@101-> Sri.Lakshman_ji, Perfectly true. Here is the quote from the mail(9-10-2017) " #16 - if it is entanErcinA enta cUcinA it is in shuddhadhanyAsi and is by Tyagaraja. Patnam's song is entanErcinA saphalamEmi. IT is in sAvEri. ".. i merely said, I WAS confused. and the doubt has been clarified. ( the problem arose because the mp3 was listed as nerchina...poornachandrika..patanam subramanya iyer"...)Confusing on two counts. 1) the ragam name..udhaya ravi chandrika but not applicable here. 2) name of the composer . ]That was before I got your clarification. Thank you.
Last edited by RSR on 18 Oct 2017, 20:30, edited 1 time in total.

CRama
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by CRama »

RSR. The song is not sung by N.C.Vasanthakokilam. It is sung by some later day singer. and the song is neither of the Entanerchinas. It is Ne jesina in Poornachandrika. Only the last two lines of the song and the kalpana swarams are there.

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

#103, CRama_ji, That is what I feared and suspected, as told by another friend to whom I had sent the mp3. who not conversant with CM, said that the record starts abruptly. Thank you very much for pointing out. I will remove it immediately.
Just today, I have placed the Todi kruthi by NCV. at
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... thyagaraja
May I have your confirmation? ( I hope that it does not have the same problem about the singer's name)

CRama
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by CRama »

RSR. The Emijesite song by NCV given by you in the above post has already been posted by Varsha in # 84. It must be part of a radio concert. complete and wonderfully sung. The songs Vinayaka Vighnanasaka (Chakravakam) and Sattileni (Poorvikalyani) also may belong to the same concert.

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

@105->CRama_ji-> Thank you very much Sir. I too got all these special songs from varsha_ji upload #91. I have downloaded all the songs and got the opening lines for 16 numbered songs from friends. and sent them to him for information.( the numbered songs were already mentioned in the website. ) Is vinayaka vignanasaka the same as the upload by Raju asokan https://youtu.be/Eo2RTdn8m8k and added to my site at
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... egavaahini
The ragam has been mentioned as vegavahini? which is correct? just now googled and landed at
https://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8295
Shall I hence mention the ragam as vegavaahini as this is a Dhikshithar kruthi?

CRama
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by CRama »

Vinayaka Vighnanasaka- You have already included in the site. can be written as Vegavahini.

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

@107-> Sir, just now completed the page creation. Kindly have a look and check up. Regards.
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... egavaahini

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

Just want to share a passage: ( from a booklet on Dhikshithar)
"There are two schools of melakartha systems, one propounded by Venkatamakhi and the other by Govindacharya.
The nomenclature adopted by the first is called the 'Kanakambari-Phenadyuti' nomenclature
and that by the second is called the 'Kanakangi- Ratnangi' nomenclature.
Muthuswami Dikshitar has followed the first system while Tyagaraja has followed the second.
Among the janya ragas also the names sometimes differ.
To mention a few, Dikshitar has used the names Kasiramakriya,Vegavahini and Sivapantuvarali
for the ragas Pantuvarali, Chakravakom and Subhapantuvarali respectively.
He has used the name Udayaravichandrika for the present Suddhadhanyasi
(this may have relevance for the few preceding posts in this thread)

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

CRama » 18 Oct 2017, 21:32
Vinayaka Vighnanasaka- You have already included in the site. can be written as Vegavahini.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Out of curiosity about the ragam names controversy, I googled for Kasiramakriya and vegavahini , and came across this nice pdf from Shodhganga ( a kind of R&D papers). I am certain that Sri, CRama will like it as it bears on some of the NCV uplaods. being done
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 8trFTkkBj0
-----------------------------------------------
For enabling highlighting, I have placed it in
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... hikshithar

Best Regards.

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

@83->'Sri.Vasanthakokilam'.......In identifying ragams, my practice is to take a good rendering by old time vocalists like DKP.. MS, NCV, GNB, MMI, MLV and identify other songs on that basis. ( rather than arohanam. avarohanam. details and parent scale approach). Accordingly, my reference for Neelaambar is an old gem by DKP ( 'maamava maadhava dhevaa krushnaa"). Neelanmbari typically is sung in slow tempo and normal octave region only. The lines by NCV 'vEllAai malaranai mael avaL , veeNaiyum kaiyum', is not reconcilable with neelaambari sanchaaram but easily with Thilang, With due regards. Only the NCV song remains in my memory. (not the orchestration). With 50% hearing impairment, I am unable to either endorse or refute your opinion about the ragam of the first stanza, When it comes to ragams in ragamalika , our forum members give different replies. lakshman_ji says that the first stanza is sahana. ! identifying ragas correctly in ragamalikas is a good exercise, I believe. May I have your opinion about the quality of https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... thyagaraja

vasanthakokilam
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by vasanthakokilam »

RSR, got it.
What Lakshmanji says may be for a different tuning of the same song.

others who read this post, please give this link a listen and write down the ragas you hear. This way RSR can document the song correctly. Thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxkyKHMzPJM

Sachi_R
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Sachi_R »

Opening strains Tilang
Followed by singing etc.
in
Nilambari
Karnataka Devagandharam
Khamach

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

@113-> Thank you, ji. There is no problem with beemplaas and kamaaj for second and third stanzas. The first stanza is tilang.
veLLai malaraNai mEl avaL veeNaiyum kaiyum ....etc
வெள்ளை மலரணைமேல்-அவள்வீணையும் கையும் விரிந்த முகமலர்
When she repeats these lines, It sounds exactly like other famous songs in tilang like 1) shyaama sundara madana mohana ..by MS in sevasdahanam film
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... ara-tilang
2) saanthi nilava vendum by DKP
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... ava-vendum
3) yadhunandhana gopala by MS in Meera
https://sites.google.com/site/meera1945 ... hunandhana
4) nallathor veeNai seythe athai nangedap puzhuthiyil... ( film Rama rajyam AVM productions..tamil 1946) .
-
As I said, such a foray is not found in neelaambari .
==================================================================
For neelaambari, DKP's maamava maadhava deva krushna is the reference. Unfortunately, I am unable to locate that 'plate'

Sachi_R
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Sachi_R »

Listen to this: https://youtu.be/IxkyKHMzPJM?t=60

And maybe you can check this:
https://youtu.be/b4lHwxuEyPs

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

@115-> Sure, ji!.. Kindly see https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... 01-pillaip
Though DKP is one of my adored musicians, I am not much of a listener to her concert songs after 1970. Her Neelaambari that I have cited is good enough reference for me.. ' ambuja lochana....'.. I observe that neelaambari always remains in the limited range of the octave of rendering...central-lower Let us await, inputs from actual vocalists. No offence meant

Ranganayaki
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sachi_R wrote: 13 Feb 2018, 14:07 @28 RSR,
This seems to be the song, right?
https://youtu.be/IxkyKHMzPJM

The opening strains are Tilang, but quickly the instruments and singer move to an indubitable Nilambari.
So it's a tie!
Yes, I agree!, though I'd said only Neelambari in the other discussion. The instrumental opening and the first two lines are in Tilang if I remember right.

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

@117-> That is fine. but my contention is that the Tilang part is brought out unmistakably in the repetition of 'veLLai malaraMai mel'. (in the higher reach) .. Moreover... though in hindi film music of the 1950 decade, music directors like CRamachandra, Naushad, MadanMohan and Shankar Jaikishen used to score wonderful songs based on classical ragas but also mix raga for ranjakathvam, that was not the case in most of the non-kruthi records given by MS.DKP and NCV If they were ragamalikas, each stanza will be of one raga only. Some examples which come to my mind are 1) thavamum palitthathammA,,, 2) dheyvatth thamizh nAttinile 3) vadavaraiya ..4) mudiyondri moovulakangalum 5) yaamarintha mozhikalile 6) chenthamizhnaadenum pothinile ( all 78 rpm records) . SVV was a very creative music director and for all that we know, he might have used just one or two ragams in a three minute record. Typically oLi padaittha kaNNInAy .. Instrumental interlude used to be brief but bewitching. He would not mix two ragams in a single stanza.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by vasanthakokilam »

RSR, may be you are overthinking this. There is unmistakable Neelambari there and that portion is NOT thilang ( leaving aside all the technicalities of how ragas are typically presented in film music ). I do not know how you can not see similarity to that Neelambari portion to the numerous Neelambari songs. That is what I was saying back in October. I am glad we reopened this discussion so we can tie it up nicely instead of leaving it open.

May be you are used to Neelambari being sung slower and not at the tempo NCV is singing.

Ranganayaki
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Ranganayaki »

I'm torn here. I don't think it is Tilang. The instrumental portion is not Tilang either. Wherever it is purely sgmpns-snpmgs it sounds like gambheera nattai (GN). That said SGMPNS like GN is common to Neelambari. But from 0:18 to 0:25, there are many rgm.. At 18, it goes rgm..-pnsmg (pl correct me if I'm wrong about the ri). At 0:21, it goes pm-g.. RGMP..MG..RGM...G.S.. - what raga is that??! Not GN or Tilang or Neelambari. I'd say it sounds like a playful shankarabharanam. It could be anything!

Then the song begins with the first line ending at Tara shadjam, but with a small sangati that goes like pnsnp. The ni does not sound like ni2 to me, a requirement of Tilang. The word kandu (aval penmaiyai kandu) is NSNP and that does not seem to have a N2 either.

I'm leaning again towards believing that it's either only Neelambari or GN and Neelambari, which is unlikely, because the other stanzas are in just one raga. Also, the swaras of GN don't clash with Neelambari. Plus may be we are influenced by the impression we have of Neelambari being a sedate/sedative raga that this unfamiliar aspect of Neelambari just cannot be squared with what we are familiar with, and we think it has to be a different raga. It's true for me.

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

@119, 120. -> Very fine . "
May be you are used to Neelambari being sung slower and not at the tempo NCV is singing.
". True.
'it could be anything!"
...May be that Ranganayaki is right. If there are very limited lines , it is possivble that it evokes the shades of quite a few ragams. There are many such controversies in CM world. The instances of Tilang in other songs based on which I take it as Tilang have been given..May be , if not exactly tilang, some CM raga closely allied to it. (circumstancial evidence: In that decade, many ragamalikas were based on ragams common to both HM & CM. ) For example, the songs in ragams like beemplas, karnatakadevagandhari, aaberi, rathipathipriya and such, sound much similar to each other. . It is not about the tempo in which it is sung by NCV, but the range of neelkaambari, essentially sung in lower octaves. . However, i bow to experts . Let the discussion continue. We will get interesting insights.

Ranganayaki
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 16 Feb 2018, 10:17
'it could be anything!"
...May be that Ranganayaki is right.

If there are very limited lines , it is possivble that it evokes the shades of quite a few ragams.
No, I meant only all the rgm and rgmp between 0:18 and 0:25. Just that part it just stands out like shankarabharanam swaras, and don't fit with Neelambari. So many janyas too might have those swaras and I think it's pointless to try to identify it. The instrumental interlude is not rigorous and in fact the wind instrument had quite a few slips. Yet it passed and made it into the recording!

Ranganayaki
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 16 Feb 2018, 10:17 @ It is not about the tempo in which it is sung by NCV, but the range of neelkaambari, essentially sung in lower octaves. .
I think it's both, the tempo and the range.

But RSR, you don't mean "lower octaves," but the lower part of the middle octave. The upper octave is the tara sthayee and the lower octave is the mandara sthayee.

Ranganayaki
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote: 15 Feb 2018, 21:40

May be you are used to Neelambari being sung slower and not at the tempo NCV is singing.
I made a similar point, and hadn't noticed this line, already there from VK.

RSR
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Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR »

the lower part of the middle octave.
Thank you. That is what I meant to say.

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