N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Carnatic Musicians
Lakshman
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#101 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Lakshman » 18 Oct 2017, 02:43

RSR: I had already sent you an email explaining the two songs that start with enta nErcinA. The shuddhadhanyAsi /udayaravicandrikA song is by Tyagaraja and the sAvEri song is by Patnam Subramania Iyer. There is no need for any doubt here. Hope others will confirm this. Thanks.
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RSR
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#102 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR » 18 Oct 2017, 12:56

@101-> Sri.Lakshman_ji, Perfectly true. Here is the quote from the mail(9-10-2017) " #16 - if it is entanErcinA enta cUcinA it is in shuddhadhanyAsi and is by Tyagaraja. Patnam's song is entanErcinA saphalamEmi. IT is in sAvEri. ".. i merely said, I WAS confused. and the doubt has been clarified. ( the problem arose because the mp3 was listed as nerchina...poornachandrika..patanam subramanya iyer"...)Confusing on two counts. 1) the ragam name..udhaya ravi chandrika but not applicable here. 2) name of the composer . ]That was before I got your clarification. Thank you.
Last edited by RSR on 18 Oct 2017, 20:30, edited 1 time in total.
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CRama
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#103 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by CRama » 18 Oct 2017, 13:14

RSR. The song is not sung by N.C.Vasanthakokilam. It is sung by some later day singer. and the song is neither of the Entanerchinas. It is Ne jesina in Poornachandrika. Only the last two lines of the song and the kalpana swarams are there.
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RSR
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#104 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR » 18 Oct 2017, 13:24

#103, CRama_ji, That is what I feared and suspected, as told by another friend to whom I had sent the mp3. who not conversant with CM, said that the record starts abruptly. Thank you very much for pointing out. I will remove it immediately.
Just today, I have placed the Todi kruthi by NCV. at
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... thyagaraja
May I have your confirmation? ( I hope that it does not have the same problem about the singer's name)
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CRama
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#105 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by CRama » 18 Oct 2017, 19:26

RSR. The Emijesite song by NCV given by you in the above post has already been posted by Varsha in # 84. It must be part of a radio concert. complete and wonderfully sung. The songs Vinayaka Vighnanasaka (Chakravakam) and Sattileni (Poorvikalyani) also may belong to the same concert.
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RSR
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#106 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR » 18 Oct 2017, 20:20

@105->CRama_ji-> Thank you very much Sir. I too got all these special songs from varsha_ji upload #91. I have downloaded all the songs and got the opening lines for 16 numbered songs from friends. and sent them to him for information.( the numbered songs were already mentioned in the website. ) Is vinayaka vignanasaka the same as the upload by Raju asokan https://youtu.be/Eo2RTdn8m8k and added to my site at
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... egavaahini
The ragam has been mentioned as vegavahini? which is correct? just now googled and landed at
https://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8295
Shall I hence mention the ragam as vegavaahini as this is a Dhikshithar kruthi?
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CRama
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#107 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by CRama » 18 Oct 2017, 21:32

Vinayaka Vighnanasaka- You have already included in the site. can be written as Vegavahini.
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RSR
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#108 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR » 19 Oct 2017, 22:02

@107-> Sir, just now completed the page creation. Kindly have a look and check up. Regards.
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... egavaahini
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RSR
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#109 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR » 20 Oct 2017, 11:13

Just want to share a passage: ( from a booklet on Dhikshithar)
"There are two schools of melakartha systems, one propounded by Venkatamakhi and the other by Govindacharya.
The nomenclature adopted by the first is called the 'Kanakambari-Phenadyuti' nomenclature
and that by the second is called the 'Kanakangi- Ratnangi' nomenclature.
Muthuswami Dikshitar has followed the first system while Tyagaraja has followed the second.
Among the janya ragas also the names sometimes differ.
To mention a few, Dikshitar has used the names Kasiramakriya,Vegavahini and Sivapantuvarali
for the ragas Pantuvarali, Chakravakom and Subhapantuvarali respectively.
He has used the name Udayaravichandrika for the present Suddhadhanyasi
(this may have relevance for the few preceding posts in this thread)
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RSR
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#110 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR » 20 Oct 2017, 14:52

CRama » 18 Oct 2017, 21:32
Vinayaka Vighnanasaka- You have already included in the site. can be written as Vegavahini.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Out of curiosity about the ragam names controversy, I googled for Kasiramakriya and vegavahini , and came across this nice pdf from Shodhganga ( a kind of R&D papers). I am certain that Sri, CRama will like it as it bears on some of the NCV uplaods. being done
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 8trFTkkBj0
-----------------------------------------------
For enabling highlighting, I have placed it in
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... hikshithar

Best Regards.
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RSR
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#111 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR » 24 Oct 2017, 12:38

@83->'Sri.Vasanthakokilam'.......In identifying ragams, my practice is to take a good rendering by old time vocalists like DKP.. MS, NCV, GNB, MMI, MLV and identify other songs on that basis. ( rather than arohanam. avarohanam. details and parent scale approach). Accordingly, my reference for Neelaambar is an old gem by DKP ( 'maamava maadhava dhevaa krushnaa"). Neelanmbari typically is sung in slow tempo and normal octave region only. The lines by NCV 'vEllAai malaranai mael avaL , veeNaiyum kaiyum', is not reconcilable with neelaambari sanchaaram but easily with Thilang, With due regards. Only the NCV song remains in my memory. (not the orchestration). With 50% hearing impairment, I am unable to either endorse or refute your opinion about the ragam of the first stanza, When it comes to ragams in ragamalika , our forum members give different replies. lakshman_ji says that the first stanza is sahana. ! identifying ragas correctly in ragamalikas is a good exercise, I believe. May I have your opinion about the quality of https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... thyagaraja
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vasanthakokilam
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#112 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by vasanthakokilam » 25 Oct 2017, 00:39

RSR, got it.
What Lakshmanji says may be for a different tuning of the same song.

others who read this post, please give this link a listen and write down the ragas you hear. This way RSR can document the song correctly. Thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxkyKHMzPJM
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Sachi_R
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#113 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Sachi_R » 13 Feb 2018, 15:58

Opening strains Tilang
Followed by singing etc.
in
Nilambari
Karnataka Devagandharam
Khamach
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RSR
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#114 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR » 13 Feb 2018, 21:24

@113-> Thank you, ji. There is no problem with beemplaas and kamaaj for second and third stanzas. The first stanza is tilang.
veLLai malaraNai mEl avaL veeNaiyum kaiyum ....etc
வெள்ளை மலரணைமேல்-அவள்வீணையும் கையும் விரிந்த முகமலர்
When she repeats these lines, It sounds exactly like other famous songs in tilang like 1) shyaama sundara madana mohana ..by MS in sevasdahanam film
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... ara-tilang
2) saanthi nilava vendum by DKP
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... ava-vendum
3) yadhunandhana gopala by MS in Meera
https://sites.google.com/site/meera1945 ... hunandhana
4) nallathor veeNai seythe athai nangedap puzhuthiyil... ( film Rama rajyam AVM productions..tamil 1946) .
-
As I said, such a foray is not found in neelaambari .
==================================================================
For neelaambari, DKP's maamava maadhava deva krushna is the reference. Unfortunately, I am unable to locate that 'plate'
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Sachi_R
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#115 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Sachi_R » 13 Feb 2018, 21:47

Listen to this: https://youtu.be/IxkyKHMzPJM?t=60

And maybe you can check this:
https://youtu.be/b4lHwxuEyPs
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RSR
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#116 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR » 14 Feb 2018, 11:12

@115-> Sure, ji!.. Kindly see https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... 01-pillaip
Though DKP is one of my adored musicians, I am not much of a listener to her concert songs after 1970. Her Neelaambari that I have cited is good enough reference for me.. ' ambuja lochana....'.. I observe that neelaambari always remains in the limited range of the octave of rendering...central-lower Let us await, inputs from actual vocalists. No offence meant
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Ranganayaki
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#117 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Ranganayaki » 15 Feb 2018, 12:36

Sachi_R wrote:
13 Feb 2018, 14:07
@28 RSR,
This seems to be the song, right?
https://youtu.be/IxkyKHMzPJM

The opening strains are Tilang, but quickly the instruments and singer move to an indubitable Nilambari.
So it's a tie!
Yes, I agree!, though I'd said only Neelambari in the other discussion. The instrumental opening and the first two lines are in Tilang if I remember right.
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RSR
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#118 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR » 15 Feb 2018, 13:23

@117-> That is fine. but my contention is that the Tilang part is brought out unmistakably in the repetition of 'veLLai malaraMai mel'. (in the higher reach) .. Moreover... though in hindi film music of the 1950 decade, music directors like CRamachandra, Naushad, MadanMohan and Shankar Jaikishen used to score wonderful songs based on classical ragas but also mix raga for ranjakathvam, that was not the case in most of the non-kruthi records given by MS.DKP and NCV If they were ragamalikas, each stanza will be of one raga only. Some examples which come to my mind are 1) thavamum palitthathammA,,, 2) dheyvatth thamizh nAttinile 3) vadavaraiya ..4) mudiyondri moovulakangalum 5) yaamarintha mozhikalile 6) chenthamizhnaadenum pothinile ( all 78 rpm records) . SVV was a very creative music director and for all that we know, he might have used just one or two ragams in a three minute record. Typically oLi padaittha kaNNInAy .. Instrumental interlude used to be brief but bewitching. He would not mix two ragams in a single stanza.
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vasanthakokilam
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#119 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by vasanthakokilam » 15 Feb 2018, 21:40

RSR, may be you are overthinking this. There is unmistakable Neelambari there and that portion is NOT thilang ( leaving aside all the technicalities of how ragas are typically presented in film music ). I do not know how you can not see similarity to that Neelambari portion to the numerous Neelambari songs. That is what I was saying back in October. I am glad we reopened this discussion so we can tie it up nicely instead of leaving it open.

May be you are used to Neelambari being sung slower and not at the tempo NCV is singing.
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Ranganayaki
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#120 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Ranganayaki » 16 Feb 2018, 09:35

I'm torn here. I don't think it is Tilang. The instrumental portion is not Tilang either. Wherever it is purely sgmpns-snpmgs it sounds like gambheera nattai (GN). That said SGMPNS like GN is common to Neelambari. But from 0:18 to 0:25, there are many rgm.. At 18, it goes rgm..-pnsmg (pl correct me if I'm wrong about the ri). At 0:21, it goes pm-g.. RGMP..MG..RGM...G.S.. - what raga is that??! Not GN or Tilang or Neelambari. I'd say it sounds like a playful shankarabharanam. It could be anything!

Then the song begins with the first line ending at Tara shadjam, but with a small sangati that goes like pnsnp. The ni does not sound like ni2 to me, a requirement of Tilang. The word kandu (aval penmaiyai kandu) is NSNP and that does not seem to have a N2 either.

I'm leaning again towards believing that it's either only Neelambari or GN and Neelambari, which is unlikely, because the other stanzas are in just one raga. Also, the swaras of GN don't clash with Neelambari. Plus may be we are influenced by the impression we have of Neelambari being a sedate/sedative raga that this unfamiliar aspect of Neelambari just cannot be squared with what we are familiar with, and we think it has to be a different raga. It's true for me.
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RSR
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#121 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR » 16 Feb 2018, 10:17

@119, 120. -> Very fine . "
May be you are used to Neelambari being sung slower and not at the tempo NCV is singing.
". True.
'it could be anything!"
...May be that Ranganayaki is right. If there are very limited lines , it is possivble that it evokes the shades of quite a few ragams. There are many such controversies in CM world. The instances of Tilang in other songs based on which I take it as Tilang have been given..May be , if not exactly tilang, some CM raga closely allied to it. (circumstancial evidence: In that decade, many ragamalikas were based on ragams common to both HM & CM. ) For example, the songs in ragams like beemplas, karnatakadevagandhari, aaberi, rathipathipriya and such, sound much similar to each other. . It is not about the tempo in which it is sung by NCV, but the range of neelkaambari, essentially sung in lower octaves. . However, i bow to experts . Let the discussion continue. We will get interesting insights.
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Ranganayaki
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#122 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Ranganayaki » 16 Feb 2018, 10:51

RSR wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 10:17
'it could be anything!"
...May be that Ranganayaki is right.

If there are very limited lines , it is possivble that it evokes the shades of quite a few ragams.
No, I meant only all the rgm and rgmp between 0:18 and 0:25. Just that part it just stands out like shankarabharanam swaras, and don't fit with Neelambari. So many janyas too might have those swaras and I think it's pointless to try to identify it. The instrumental interlude is not rigorous and in fact the wind instrument had quite a few slips. Yet it passed and made it into the recording!
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Ranganayaki
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#123 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Ranganayaki » 16 Feb 2018, 10:59

RSR wrote:
16 Feb 2018, 10:17
@ It is not about the tempo in which it is sung by NCV, but the range of neelkaambari, essentially sung in lower octaves. .
I think it's both, the tempo and the range.

But RSR, you don't mean "lower octaves," but the lower part of the middle octave. The upper octave is the tara sthayee and the lower octave is the mandara sthayee.
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Ranganayaki
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#124 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by Ranganayaki » 16 Feb 2018, 11:01

vasanthakokilam wrote:
15 Feb 2018, 21:40


May be you are used to Neelambari being sung slower and not at the tempo NCV is singing.
I made a similar point, and hadn't noticed this line, already there from VK.
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RSR
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#125 Re: N.C. Vasanthakokilam

Post by RSR » 16 Feb 2018, 11:24

the lower part of the middle octave.
Thank you. That is what I meant to say.
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