T.R.Mahalingam - Mali (Flute)

Carnatic Musicians
pjguru
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Post by pjguru »

Actually, the more I'm thinking about the MMI analogy the more convincing it is. It is possible that Mali realized the limitations of an instumentalists when it comes to rendering the compositions and instead focused on other aspects of the carnatic music.

thathwamasi
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Post by thathwamasi »

vkv43034 and pjguru - Good posts. However, after listening to Mali's Mayamma in Ahiri and Sree Sathyanarayanam in Subhapantuvarali, I feel rasikas are at loss for Mali not having played more of SS or MD
Last edited by thathwamasi on 16 Apr 2008, 16:14, edited 1 time in total.

cacm
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Post by cacm »

I want to share the following as I feel there is more than one interested & intrigued by Mali's choice of what he played.......I recently listened to Mali at K.G.S. in '78 (M.C. & tiruchi S I think are the accompanists). I want to echo thatmavasi's observations above.....
His rendering of "Subramanyaya Namasthae" FIRST LITERALLY MADE ME RUN UPSTAIRS TO GET the book where the composition was printed in full tho' i knew it already& located renderings of MaharajapuramV,ARIYAKUDI, GNB MMI in addn toTNR, Chinna Moulana & listened to them. What I FOUND WAS: 1) THEIR TOTAL RESPECT & REVERENCE TO DHIKSHITHAR'S COMPOSITION. 2) THEIR EXTREME SENSITIVITY TO DOING THE NIRAVAL & SWARAS IN THE MOST APPROPRIATE PLACE. Actually Mali appears to be like MMI in that he first rendered the Sahitya fully & then only resort to Niraval & Swaras.
Needless to say it was an out of the world experience & the closest I can ever dream of Getting anywhere near IMMORTAL Dhikhishtar. I would like other Mali fans to share their experiences. It is a pity for reasons known only to himself unless some one like Ramani can throw light on this We will never know! vkv

annamalai
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Post by annamalai »

A Flutist - famous for rendering Diskhitar krithis is Tiruppamburam Swaminatha Pillai.
Many musicians ( SRJ, TK Govinda Rao, ..) have learnt Dikshitar krithis from Swaminatha Pillai when he was a Professor at Annamalai University or Chennai Music College.

Unfortunately, there are very few recordings of Swaminatha Pillai in circulation.

T. Viswanathan is a student of Swaminatha Pillai.

thathwamasi
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Post by thathwamasi »

There is a scene in the movie called Amadeus, where in Salieri will describe Mozart's music (about the third and fourth act of The Marraige of Figaro). Salieri will say that God was singing through that little man and conferring perfect absolution on everyone listening to it. When I was listening to Mali and Palghat Mani Iyer playing togather, I always recall that scene. I just cut out a bit from a concert with mali and mani iyer, where it just confers absolution on the listeners. Please listen to this. (have a few tissues handy. I almost cry everytime I listen to the last few moments.)

http://rapidshare.com/files/109972625/M ... a.mp3.html
Last edited by thathwamasi on 24 Apr 2008, 11:54, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

thatwamasi,
Thanks, enjoyed the clip a lot. Is this concert available on sangeetham share?
I also liked the violin following like a shadow...

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

Suji Ram wrote:I also liked the violin following like a shadow...
pativratA mahAbhAgA, chAya iva anugatA sadA!

matterwaves
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Post by matterwaves »

That-thou-art!,
I have the same question as Suji. I think the violinist is Dwaram Mangtayaru?

pjguru
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Post by pjguru »

Thanks for the clip. The rendition was really beautiful.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Wonderful clip thathwamasi. There is so much there to soak in on repeated listening.

It sounded to me that the mridangam playing is more along the tabla style of playing. Did any one else get that impression?
It definitely fits Mali's exhibition of laya there.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

It sounded to me that the mridangam playing is more along the tabla style of playing. Did any one else get that impression?
It definitely fits Mali's exhibition of laya there.
I kept listening and listening to this clip the whole day. Yep the mridamgam sound like tabla style-even better

thathwamasi
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Post by thathwamasi »

Matterwaves - The violinist is Sri. T N Krishnan.

Vasanthakokilam, pjguru and Suji Ram - Thanks. Mani Iyer has simply walked along with Mali fitting Mali's grandeur. I will soon upload the Keerthana rendition of the same kanada - Sukhi Evvaro. That is probably as good as a mridangam can accompany a flute. Have heard stories that on the day of this concert, the entire Maharajapuram Santhanam Road (the then Griffith Road) was filled and hence there was delay because Palghat Mani Iyer couldn't enter the hall in time. I am not sure if Mali came on time though.

pjguru
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Post by pjguru »

I have heard that L Subramaniam has also accompanied Mali. Can anyone throw more light on this matter? Also, if yes are there any renditions available of these musicians playing together?

mahavishnu
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Post by mahavishnu »

pjguru, there are some commercial recordings available of Mali playing with LS. There is an anthology of South Indian music, in which there is a small clip in Behag of Mali accompanied by LS. I am guessing that there are private collectors with full recordings of those concerts.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Is it just me or isnt there a very definite foray into into darbAri kAnaDa there? Particularly starting with usage of D1 starting at 2:53, and then few times after that for a while?

I have also heard that he does stuff like that - just goes with the feel always :)

(Apologies if I am mishearing)

Arun

matterwaves
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Post by matterwaves »

Mali and LS is playing in Los Angeles is available on sangeethapriya. I remember hearing to LS (somewhere I dont remember) that he played with a broken flute and yet the instrument didnt give a small hint of rupture.Whenever i hear to that concert, i feel mali is playing with great relucatnce. I think mali was well past his prime by .that time

Arun, I for one can surely hear darbari kanada in the clip!
Last edited by matterwaves on 26 Apr 2008, 01:20, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

I too heard DB may be even at around 4.00

He has played kAnaDa/DarbAri kAnaDa quite often in his concerts.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

yep after 2:53, it is a mix. At 4:00 its mainly the ga being done like darbAri kAnaDa ga, and you can actually hear that kind of a ga in otherwise straight kAnaDa elaborations also in some artists (i had a sample of this in my blog article on Kanada - where MMI does something during sukhi evvarO). But D1 - that is a firm darbAri kAnaDa stamp - :)
Last edited by arunk on 26 Apr 2008, 02:59, edited 1 time in total.

thathwamasi
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Post by thathwamasi »

arunk - The usage of D1 is definitely sounding darbari kanada. However, Mali has used both the Da's in Kanada time and again..(similair to his usage of D1 in Abheri). Genius think alike and this is one more example. I am sure many of us here must be familiar with a song "poomalai vangi vandhan" from the movie Sindhu Bhairavi tuned by Illayaraja - that song is perfect Kanada but for the beautiful usage of D1 twice the charanams.

When the immortals do something against the established laws, it adds to the beauty, but when we, mortals try the same....alas....

arunk
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Post by arunk »

thathwamasi - I am not going to (nor can I) take away the genius of mAli. While I have not heard as much of his music (as I should), I have heard that he sometimes is his own piper in this regard.

Nor am a sticker to these matters (I am certainly not qualified to be) - but I would think D1 in kAnaDa would be an excursion beyond the raga (abhEri is a different animal - albeit a mixture of D1 and D2 is sort of unusual I guess). I thought the main difference between darbAri kAnaDa is D1 vs D2, and the different gamaka on ga. More may be there, but these two stand out most to me.

Of course whether such an excursion was unwarranted or not, may get subjective i.e. it maybe a hard sell to people beyond mAli fan-dom :) The piece was soulful - but to me it was a fairly good mixture of kAnaDa and darbAri kAnaDa and to be honest, for me, a person with a HUGE partiality to standard kAnaDa, that part was a big let down. In fact, for pumAlai, I wish the start part was standard kAnaDa too!


Arun

coolkarni
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Post by coolkarni »

Hmmm
One LIKES somebody BECAUSE OF...
One LOVES somebody INSPITE OF....
:cool:
Last edited by coolkarni on 27 Apr 2008, 05:29, edited 1 time in total.

thathwamasi
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Post by thathwamasi »

hahaha..a very good one coolji...

arunk - I completely agree with what you say. Like you said, for someone who is a fan of a standard Kanada wouldn't be too happy with the D1. But there is something we need to be aware of. May be I am typing what I am typing because I am a Mali worshipper....

Mali was once quoted saying that when he is playing, at a point he just forgets the keerthanai, the raagam and the lakshyam behind and he simply goes by the lakshanam. I dont deny that playing D1 is technically right in Kanada...but honestly..how does it matter...When I get on to a flight, I will simply enjoy the experience of flying rather than worrying what's the engineering that has gone behind in constructing the flight. Some might argue that as a passenger I wouldn't need to know, but the pilot needs to know...I dont deny that....but well..as far as the flight flies, we can safely assume that the pilot knows what he is doing.

And another after thought....Certain anniya swarams on certain raagas are nothing but the creativity of someone few centuries ago which has become sampradaya now...

LIke you had mentioned, the piece was really soulful...but is it scientific..may be or may be not...but really how does it matter...Afterall the proof of the pudding is in eating of it.

Someone asked the famous tamil writer pudhumaipithan "Do you believe in ghosts??" Pudhumaipithan responded "I dont believe in them. But I am afraid of them"...This is similiar to that...Is Mali playing D1 is Kanada right? It may not be right..but its so soulful"....Afterall, the Goddess claimed that Dandi was the best Sanskrit poet alive ahead of Kalidasa..and the reason being, She thought that herself and Kalidasa were the same....Kali and Mali..oh don't they sound similair....

P.S. These views are totally totally biased and are coming straight from the heart of a Mali fan. So if there are any errors, I would totally accept them.

Thanks
T

niramayan
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Post by niramayan »

I found Mali and LS on surasa,net sometime ago

http://surasa.net/cgi-bin/plist.cgi?t22 ... alapana.rm
http://surasa.net/cgi-bin/plist.cgi?t22 ... mivalla.rm

The kaapi alaapana by LS is truly amazing

Sorry if the links have already been posted .. :D

arunk
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Post by arunk »

thathwamasi,

I totally understand (particularly how mAli approaches things - I hinted at that in my first post). It is actually a complex issues when one ponders on and is sort of at the core of lakshya vs. lakshana. CM on one hand is about nAdOpAsana, about people who get lost completely and find complete bliss in music. But at the same time you have rules in place for you to "keep in mind". This can seem oxymoronic since we can argue whether one can completely lose himself/herself, if one must exercise some sort of control in the process ;)!

btw, In the other thread, I was sort in the "other side" (i.e your side) w.r.t aTANA and G3 :)

Arun

arasi
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Post by arasi »

thathwamasi,
Subjective as you say it is, it says a lot. Here on the forum, there are scientists (like Arun) who 'analyse' as only trained minds can. The beauty of it is, they are also great lovers of music. When they discuss music on the forum--it is doubly worthwhile, at least for me, who cannot think as clearly as they do because I am not scientifically trained. They bring a perspective which I don't possess.
As a composer, I can say this: I have no clue about how the song is structured and if it has the right svarams when I first sing it out. At the end of it, I realize that the song hasn't strayed away from the structure of the rAgA. There have been a few occasions when I would sing the composition and get stuck with a phrase which sounds odd musically. I would immediately change the note and phrase. Even make it sound all right by changing a word or two.
There are those on the forum who think that a composer has to possess a high degree of theoretical knowledge. I am not questioning that, but I would fail to make the grade then. While I see merit in that way of thinking, I also think that it need not be that exclusive. In a way, it is like saying all music other than classical music, from east, west, north or south are not worth pursuing or listening to. Again, it is purely from my own experience with listening and composing that I am saying this. i do not want to start a discussion on this either--because I wouldn't know what more to say about it :)
Of course, Mali knew his music. He was also a free spirit. His music transported us. That is what makes him a staying power. While great
knowledge in theory undoubtedly helps, that alone will not make a musician inspired or inspiring...

cacm
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Post by cacm »

Dear Arasi,
As a fan of your compositions I admire, I VALUE what you say VERY MUCH. More than the persons rendering the compositions its the composers- as MMI & MDR ALWAYS INSISTED- that are pouring their creative souls which many of us FEEL but cannot put into words or music. I feel MALI was ONE OF A KIND. I have discussed these areas with him & I was astounded by his INSIGHTS as well as RESEARCH he had done regarding VARIOUS ASPECTS of what he actually PUBLICALLY presented. I regret I was not mature enough to recognise what both Mali & S.Ramanathan explained to me about the folk origins, temporal variations etc that Various RAGAS(Including the allowed & disallowed notes, sancharams etc) have undergone over time.
It is OBVIOUS MALI could play anything he chose to- a rare trait- & the question is why he did what he did. I REJECT the simple minded theory he was not in full control of his faculties due to various reasons. I truly wish I had enough wisdom to have recorded his Observations.Of course I was making 85 rs. a month as demonstrator & trying to chase my Holy Grail which I NOW FEEL was not worth it!.......vkv
Last edited by cacm on 30 Apr 2008, 00:28, edited 1 time in total.

VK RAMAN
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Post by VK RAMAN »

How many in our Rasikas can relate to that Rs.85 a month and the chasing of holy grail?

Out of curiosity, what if a musician decides to change the raagam for which the lyrics were written, how would the composer/lyricist feel or take it?

cacm
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Post by cacm »

Dear VKR,
It would be nice if Arasi addresses your very insightful question. We cannot go back to the composers of yester year! vkv

arasi
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Post by arasi »

VKV,
I did not now that you knew about my compositions. Thank you for liking them.

V.K.Raman,
Only once was I asked this question by a vocalist: could I sing this song in another (closely related) rAgA?. He would have done justice to it too, but I preferred to have it stay in the original rAgA. He is sensitive to the lyrics and would have done a good job of it, but I thought, may be another day I would get a composition in that rAgA and would request him to sing that song! Now I am wondering. Did the song border on the rAgA he suggested? I have to ask him!

VK RAMAN
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Post by VK RAMAN »

Thanks arasi.

pjguru
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Post by pjguru »

Listening to Mali's recordings it is hard not to notice that he prefered playing in the 'Panchama' shruthi. On the contrary, his student Vid Ramani and most of the other recent flautists including Shashank prefer playing in shruthi much lower than 'Panchama'. Regarding this I have two questions:

1/ Why did Mali choose to play in 'Panchama' shruthi?
2/ Why do the current flautists prefer lower shruthi? (is it the influence of the hindusthani music)

mri_fan
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Post by mri_fan »

I believe Sri Ramani is credited with being one of the first to play at the lower sruthi. As I understand it, Ramani thought bringing the struthi down kept it more in line with the struthi's for other instruments (veena/violin are both at the same 2.5 to 3). Those who predated N. Ramani tended to use higher struthis (Sikkil sisters, Mali played at that higher struthi).

Most other flautists who have taken up flute after Ramani have kept it at the 3 sruthi, as I understand it

sramaswamy
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Post by sramaswamy »

Do you get higher volume with a higher pitch? Now that the mikes are available you may not need that high volume.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Higher sruthi does seem to go hand in hand with higher volume ( amplitude ) though theoretically that need not be the case.

pjguru
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Post by pjguru »

Thanks everyone for your different perspectives on my initial query.
I always thought that the string instruments in general had more flexibilty than flute to adapt to diffrent shruthis. Hence, I would presume whether the shruthi of a flute is 5 or lower it should not be difficult for the string instrument to tune for it. So, I would presume one need not change the shruthi of his flute (especially if he is a main artist) to adapt to the shruthi of the string instruments. Please correct me if I have made a mistake in my observations.

Another perspective to this is: Mali himself was a very adept violin player and yet he did not feel the
need to play his flute in a lower shruthi generally found in string instruments. Hence, I believe there must have been a reasoning behind his use of Panchama shruthi.

cacm
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Post by cacm »

5 vs 3 0r 2.5 sruthi:
Having learnt & studied flute some I can say that the blowing technique of Mali (which he invented,initiated& perfected) enabled him to blow EFFORTLESSLY; Generally one has to blow far harder.Some flutists playing have been called "Aduppu oodhara " flute playing! Similarly his fingering as well as use of fingers to partially close holes etc was UNCANNILY PERFECT.
My own theory has to do with the differences between Stars & Superstars. I claim that it is analogous to a SERVO-SYSTEM. The two parameters crucial are feed back of the response to what ever is played as well as speed & fidelity of response.
Mali, MMI, MSS & BALAMURALI in my opinion from a STRICTLY TECHNICAL ASPECT are Super Stars. Its the precision that most others have not been able to match. For flute, nadaswaram etc where blowing in conjunction with finger control makes it far more difficult at a higher pitch. Of course the reaction of the listener has far more parameters involved. If one gets involved in design of accoustically perfect auditoria etc 57 parameters are needed to optimise just the design of the hall etc.....So the 5 vs 3 or 2.5 does not tell the whole story....vkv

ajit
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Post by ajit »

Well, Dr. N. Ramani used to play at 5 kattai early in his career(during the 50s and before).
While he was playing at 5 kattai, he was requested by an accompanying artiste to play at 4 kattai.
He did change his sruthi from 5 to 4 at this request and was playing at 4 kattai for a while - These were
all in the early 60s. Then with the advent of Venu, Veena, violin concerts, he was playing at around 2.5-3.0 for them and his solos at 4 kattai. Finally he decided to switch his solos to the same sruthi as for vvv concerts so that he does not have keep changing sruthis(and hence flutes). As his disceiple I have talked
to him regarding this aspect and have gotten the above information. One of the reasons for vvv to be
played at 2.5-3 kattai is that it is difficult to play the veena at 5 kattai.

As for bringing down the sruthi of the flute, I dont know whether he was the first one but certainly
the sruthi at which he plays(around 2.5) has stayed now. Sikkil sisters play at 3 kattai. Shashank used
to play at 4 but now around 2 or 2.5. Sri T. Sankaran, used to play at 5.5 and 5 but now plays at 2.5 or 3.
Accompanists (both mridangists and violinists )prefer 2.5 to 5 since at 5 it could sound shrill and also
the handling of instrument becomes tougher(more tension etc. ). Having said this, violin solos are played
at 4 kattai by some and some others at 3 kattai.

With regards to flute - the sound is brighter at a higher sruthi like 5 kattai than a lower sruthi like 2.5. But
the lapses in sruthi at 5 will sound really bad compared to lapses in sruthi at 2.5 - this is just my observation and I could be wrong.

ajit.

thathwamasi
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Post by thathwamasi »

Since I was lucky to have been associated with Flute Ventarama Iyer for some time who has shared a few memorable conversations with Mali, I came to know about this Flute Shruti issue. Mali always used to play in the panchama Sruti and he felt that is how flue must be played. Apparently he has mentioned that Flute if played in a lesser Sruti makes him feel like whistling.

Mali, like mentioned in the above posts, have just mastered the art of wind techniques. I don't think any one else (probably Jean-Pierre Rampal) had such kinda mastery of blow techniques. It is a real challenge to control a flute at 5 or 5.5 Sruti as even the slightest of abaswaram willl be blown outta proportion to audience's ears. Hence it was a challenge to play in that Sruti and who else but the master can stand up to the challenge.

T

cacm
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Post by cacm »

I feel Western flute has a different set of challenges as Harmony presents different problems than Melody; In general addtional help like keys etc provide a relief in some respects. I had taken Ramani in '71 when he toured with LGJ to flutists at New York Philharmonic who were quite astounded at the breath control & the need to improvise so much in addition to the other problems. Ravi Shankar actually had to teach Jean-Paul in a ROTE FASHION for their joint pieces together. I feel the two systems require different talents. vkv

pjguru
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Post by pjguru »

I thank everyone for sharing their experiences and opinions on my question. Having had some experience in playing flute at 5 kattai, I cannot but echo the observations made by VKV sir, Thathwamasi and Ajith. It definitely requires better blowing techniques and improved fingering techniques to deftly control movement of fingers on holes that are very close to each other. Also, as mentioned by others, the margin for error in a flute of 5 kattai is very less.

I was discussing this same issue with a friend of mine and he gave me two very interesting (and maybe a bit far fetching too!!!) reason of why Mali could have choosen 5 kattai. He mentioned that 5 kattai is close to the pitch of the sound made by Cuckoo, the queen of sweet voice amongt birds (couldn't help but relate this to an experience of VKV sir with a Japanese admirer of Mali that he shared with us in another thread). The second reason that my friend gave was that the pitch of the flute used by Lord Krishna is 5 kattai. He could not tell me the source of his information....might well be a figment of his imagination!!!

I believe in Shashank's case playing in 2 kattai is due to Hindustani influence ever since he started taking some classes on hindustani music from Pt. Jasraj.

cacm
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Post by cacm »

Dear pjguru,
If you listen to Mali carefully one can see that he used the holes being very close to great advantage because he was capable of playing at "supersonoic" speeds with great precision when he chose to; esp in the earlier part of his career he apparently used to do so quite often. Later on he went the other way playing things in a "super slow" pace making it almost impossible for accompanists who did not have his grip! I wish I had the EXPERTISE to analyse Mali's RESEARCH APPROACH to sound, Music and so many other areas he was willing to explain but I was not mature or knowledgeable & felt I should not waste the time of persons at his level. vkv

thanjavooran
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Post by thanjavooran »

Regarding slow speed I recollect an incident. some 50 yrs back he performed a temple concert along with TNK and PMI. After elaborate sankarabaranam he took the master piece of SS. He played it in a very slow pace such that PMI could not fill the gap and kept silent for a while. In my earlier posting I raised a doubt . Is there any norm to sing a kriti at a speed other than the particular set by the composers?

cacm
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Post by cacm »

thanjavooran wrote:Regarding slow speed I recollect an incident. some 50 yrs back he performed a temple concert along with TNK and PMI. After elaborate sankarabaranam he took the master piece of SS. He played it in a very slow pace such that PMI could not fill the gap and kept silent for a while. In my earlier posting I raised a doubt . Is there any norm to sing a kriti at a speed other than the particular set by the composers?
Dear T,
You are ABSOLUTELY correct. I do not want to mention names- esp. those who are still alive- but there are several similar instances where the mtidangists have actually committed mistakes & violinists who were educated on stage by Mali
during concerts.The were all the BETTER FOR IT. In those days BOTH the artists as well as the audience truly wanted to learn & understand in a fairly objective fashion what was technically happening also tho' many of them were highly knowlrdgeable. Even today when I come to Chennai in winter I seek out many who are in their eighties who can give accurate assessments!
Your question about the "norm to sing a kriti" was addressed in length by Alapuzhai Venkatesn in a masterly 2 part lec-dem on "Layam" at Saraswathi a few years back; If you have not heard it I can recount it in another posting.
This has implications to why I have not seriously listened to carnatic music after mid eighties. I am writing this because 1) I happen to know almost every leading artist after that & can discuss with them directly. 2) Very few of the persons in these forums shed light & mostly generate heat on objective discussions on issues.

These two points you have excellently & succintly referred to have implications as to why I have not seriously listened to carnatic music after mid eighties. I am writing this because 1) I happen to know almost every leading artist after that & can discuss with them directly. 2) Very few of the persons in these forums shed light & mostly generate heat on objective discussions on issues. vkv

thathwamasi
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Post by thathwamasi »

<vkv43034 > I certainly concur with you on two points in ur prev posting. One about not listening to music seriously after the mid eighties and the generating heat over an objective discussion.

Regarding my earlier posting about Jean Pierre Rampal, you are right in saying that both forms of music requires different talents. But there is no surprise in Rampal's need to be taught his parts in playing along with Ravi Shankar. Obviously they weren't playing the form of music which is Rampal's forte. I am sure Ravishankar should have been taught his parts as well, if a page of staff notation is presented to him to play a Beethoven or Schubert.

Improvisation is not a western musician's forte. So it isn't a surprise that New York Philaharmonica's flautists admired Ramani Sir. But on the other hand, playing exactly what is written by the composer, yet making subtle improvisations purely with the tone colours and the trills isn't a carnatic musicians forte. That way I am sure Ramani Sir would have admired them as well.

So like I said earlier, the breathe control aspect has never been mastered by anyone else but Mali. The one who came the next closest was Rampal. The following clip stands an evidence for that. The tone colours and subtle improvisations by Rampal sure made Vivaldi proud as well.

http://rapidshare.com/files/115834868/0 ... r.wma.html

Thanks
T

thanjavooran
Posts: 2972
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 04:44

Post by thanjavooran »

"Your question about the "norm to sing a kriti" was addressed in length by Alapuzhai Venkatesn in a masterly 2 part lec-dem on "Layam" at Saraswathi a few years back; If you have not heard it I can recount it in another posting. "
shri vkv avl,
After listening, Musiri, MDR and TKG' s styles really interested to know more about Gathi of kritis. Please throw some light on this subject. Thanx.

cacm
Posts: 2212
Joined: 08 Apr 2010, 00:07

Post by cacm »

thathwamasi wrote:<vkv43034 > I certainly concur with you on two points in ur prev posting. One about not listening to music seriously after the mid eighties and the generating heat over an objective discussion.

Regarding my earlier posting about Jean Pierre Rampal, you are right in saying that both forms of music requires different talents. But there is no surprise in Rampal's need to be taught his parts in playing along with Ravi Shankar. Obviously they weren't playing the form of music which is Rampal's forte. I am sure Ravishankar should have been taught his parts as well, if a page of staff notation is presented to him to play a Beethoven or Schubert.

Improvisation is not a western musician's forte. So it isn't a surprise that New York Philaharmonica's flautists admired Ramani Sir. But on the other hand, playing exactly what is written by the composer, yet making subtle improvisations purely with the tone colours and the trills isn't a carnatic musicians forte. That way I am sure Ramani Sir would have admired them as well.

So like I said earlier, the breathe control aspect has never been mastered by anyone else but Mali. The one who came the next closest was Rampal. The following clip stands an evidence for that. The tone colours and subtle improvisations by Rampal sure made Vivaldi proud as well.

http://rapidshare.com/files/115834868/0 ... r.wma.html

Thanks
T
Dear Thathvamasi,
THANKS very much. J P R 's CLIP WAS OUTSTANDING! I agree with what you have said about him. I was mostly thinking of the technicalities of playing. Wynton Marsellies & John Coltrane are the two OUTSTANDING persons I can think of who can convey EMOTIONS similar to our experiences esp reg emotions&empathywhile using keys in their instruments which I feel are doubly removed from the composer's composition.. I find except in Opera as well as choral pieces in Western classical THE REST are great in their way etc but the merger between the individal soul & universal soul in a certain sense is not fully there! The famous I & THOU Problem persists.....at least to me.
Another minor observation: Ravi Shankar ( I happen to have known & interacted with him a lot) is EXPERT in notation etc - thanks to Y Menuhin) & his symphony for Sitar & orchestra- London Symphony conducted by Andre Previn Recording IS OUTSTANDING-& HE HAD TO WRITE AS WELL AS TEACH IT TO THE ORCHESTRA.
To conclude my post I play this recording to lots of music students in usa; ESP where the SITAR enters the scene after a few minutes: R.S. has managed to convey three thousand years at least our history & the various influences in his three minute entry!
A truly amazing feat& brings the history right in front of one's eyes.....vkv
Last edited by cacm on 19 May 2008, 10:49, edited 1 time in total.

cacm
Posts: 2212
Joined: 08 Apr 2010, 00:07

Post by cacm »

thanjavooran wrote:"Your question about the "norm to sing a kriti" was addressed in length by Alapuzhai Venkatesn in a masterly 2 part lec-dem on "Layam" at Saraswathi a few years back; If you have not heard it I can recount it in another posting. "
shri vkv avl,
After listening, Musiri, MDR and TKG' s styles really interested to know more about Gathi of kritis. Please throw some light on this subject. Thanx.
Dear T,
You have raised a very PROFOUND issue. I am not sure whether I have the ability as well as expertise to properly answer it tho' I have spent quite a bit of time pondering it! Let me gather my notes etc & write a post soon. vkv

vaibhavam
Posts: 8
Joined: 05 Nov 2007, 15:28

Post by vaibhavam »

mali ... is the best this rasika ever listened to...

haunting and divine music just poured from him..

pjguru
Posts: 15
Joined: 15 Apr 2008, 10:27

Post by pjguru »

It came as a surprise to me to notice that Mali is not a recepient of Sangeetha Kalanidhi award. As of today only 5 flautists have received this prestegious award given annually by the Music Academy. Here is the list:
1/ 1943 Palladam Sanjiva Rao - flute
2/ 1953 Tirupampuram N. Swaminatha Pillai - flute
3/ 1988 Prof. T. Viswanathan - flute
4/ 1996 Dr. N. Ramani - flute
5/ 2002 Sikkil Sisters (Neela & Kunjumani) - flute

While I'm sure it is the loss of the Academy for denying this award to such an artist it still bother me that a musician of Mali's stature did not receive this award.

flutemali
Posts: 5
Joined: 04 Oct 2006, 09:43

Post by flutemali »

i came to know from my guruji tat Mali returned all his awards, including the padmabhushana award.
He was conferred sangita kalanidhi (i dont remember the year, neither he remembers)

Regarding playing in pitch 5, all of us (disciples of my guruji) play in this pitch. Ramani sir, Hyderabad Srinivasan sir and my guruji were direct students of Mali.

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