Vid. Madurai T.N. Seshagopalan 1984 concert from 'Parvathi', Mysore

[cpblog]

Dear Rasikas,

This is considered as a great RTP performance from Vidwan TNS with an equally brilliant support
cast of Vidwans Mysore Nagaraj, Srimushnam Raja Rao and Bangalore Venkatram.
This concert is from April 16 1984 on the occasion of Ramanavami at 'Parvathi', Mysore.

Please welcome at "A Home called Parvathi " http://chowdaiahandparvati.blogspot.com/ OR TNS-1984-Parvathi

Enjoy!
CPBlog Team

[hnbhagavan]

Excellent concert.Very nice RTP.

[sureshvv]

TNS at his peak vocal prowess. Thank you for the concert.

[sangeethadasan]

When there is a post about Sri Sanjay, or Sri TMK or Sri Abhishek Raghuram people in this forum just throng to reply and interact with that post. But its sickening to see that hardly anyone has even seen this post and responded to it. This post talks about a legendary concert and the musician of this era. More than that, it has also got the music, about which it talks, available to listen also. I am sure, no one can even stand near Sri TN Seshagopalan when we compare the music produced by him during his peaks and all the stuff that we call as legendary thats being produced now. I am sure youngsters pay heed to this concert, listen to it and take a lot of musical value from this.
Thanks

[rshankar]

But its sickening to see that hardly anyone has even seen this post and responded to it.

Have you considered that (to paraphrase Smt. Dhanammal) the concert 'speaks' for itself, and there is nothing else to 'say' or 'discuss'??

[sangeethadasan]

But its sickening to see that hardly anyone has even seen this post and responded to it.

Have you considered that (to paraphrase Smt. Dhanammal) the concert 'speaks' for itself, and there is nothing else to 'say' or 'discuss'??

Have u considered that my point is no one has listened to the concert which has been postd

[vilomachapu]

TNS's sruti was/is/ and will be far from perfect. He had/has/will have the tendency only to produce fast brigas which are mostly meaningless. His forays into viLamba kAla are very contrived and sound artificial. He has had no gamaka shuddham ever. He became popular because people generally like fast music and so called thrilling brigas. To call him a legend is just a joke. There is no introspection in his singing. He became popular, got his SK and is leading a comfortable life without contributing anything of true value to CM.

[Rsachi]

Vilomachapu,
It's obvious you've these views based on some deep understanding of CM and you've heard TNS a lot. But with all respect, you are making wide-ranging judgements and pretty much damning a big musician and all his admirers. So my own request is:
1. Focus on this concert. Please point out the defects and deficiencies you notice. This will help someone like me understand you and understand the music better.
2. Your comment about TNS lacking introspection looks pretty drastic! What makes you say this? Please give more data.

Please do share the music you like. I would very much like to hear it.

I know some people in this forum, like CRama and Mahavishnu, who know a lot about CM. I request them to pitch in.
Cheers
Sachi

[rshankar]

Have u considered that my point is no one has listened to the concert which has been postd

How would you know how many have listened to the concert? Is there a counter? If you are making the assumption that no one has listened based on the absence of comments, then perhaps my comment will make more sense...

[MaheshS]

TNS's sruti was/is/ and will be far from perfect. He had/has/will have the tendency only to produce fast brigas which are mostly meaningless. His forays into viLamba kAla are very contrived and sound artificial. He has had no gamaka shuddham ever. He became popular because people generally like fast music and so called thrilling brigas. To call him a legend is just a joke. There is no introspection in his singing. He became popular, got his SK and is leading a comfortable life without contributing anything of true value to CM.

Gem from another thread ..

There are precedents for MA awarding SK to light music exponents, e.g., Balamurali Krishna and Maharajapuram Santanam.

Awesome analysis, it's like reading TMK / Kejriwal / Sardesai / where you disgree with every word, but it does expose your genius. I was going to call you dumb, but that will be insulting to dumb people, glass half empty / full etc etc. More of the same please.

Who else?

[MaheshS]

But its sickening to see that hardly anyone has even seen this post and responded to it.

Have you considered that (to paraphrase Smt. Dhanammal) the concert 'speaks' for itself, and there is nothing else to 'say' or 'discuss'??

Have u considered that my point is no one has listened to the concert which has been postd

Errr? The Kutcheri Reviews *normallY* deals with people who have attended the concert *personally*. Occasionally there are some threads with old concerts. They are posted because they are gems, comment if you want, but don't expect others to as it's almost expected that they are here because it's golden.

By the way, what thalam is the RTP in? Can you please post an analysis of the pallavi?

[rajeshnat]

Sangeethadasan
For many years I wanted to hear the earliest recording of TNS . Sachi provided another parvathi concert where TNS and Tanjore Upendran paired and the concert is in 1973 (Ra ra rajeev lochana in mohanam preceded by shanmughapriya mariverE). Wrote a post then as then hearing not only young tns but also Upendran sir was also a bonus . It is just time that most of us dont have . you can take a lead to describe this concert . TNS has entered the super hall of fame - dont worry on the responses here.

[hnbhagavan]

Post#7 vilomachapu

As Sachi has put it,these are drastic comments on a musician of good standing without pointing out the defects in the concert.Perhaps you are a greater expert than many who sing on very prestigious platforms with great accompaniments.
I am not a great expert but a very humble rasika who cannot digest such comments on the revered musician.

[shankarank]

There is no introspection in his singing. He became popular, got his SK and is leading a comfortable life without contributing anything of true value to CM.

Most upcoming violinists of that time and some contemporary Mridangists would not have known what layam means if not for him. When males would shudder to get into this business, he would hike into a brick lorry from Madurai to reach a concert venue in Chennai , because train tickets were hard. He would perform 3 concerts in a row in 24 hours between Chennai and Bangalore - yes he had to sustain himself given the inflation and everything else.

Imagine any HM artiste doing this? Their pay scale is order of magnitude different. Our fraternity was no where near HM in remunerating our musicians. We will only preach tyAgaraja kritis back to them. We will know the meaning of that kriti very well!! Our own men folk though should exemplify udyOgam purusha lakshaNam!

I would say he was not alone in having somewhat bitter relationship with music fraternity. There are indeed other well recognized musicians that went through the same.

Just a bit senior to him - there are three names: Madurai GS Mani, Thiruvengadu Jayaraman and Vairamangalam Lakshmi Narayanan who were not recognized by the music fraternity - even if they were not dazzling performers but good traditional musicians. Those were one of the Dark ages of carnatic music.

In terms of brighas - TNS was an Abhimanyu yes - he didn't know when and how to get out of that! Some others like TVR were more naturally selective because of the bAni they inherited.

He can be written off - if only we can write off layam ( and its physical representation called Mridangam) as not music! I am not surprised - since it is the men that abandoned interest in the music disproportionately. Why would any one not write off that aspect? Shame on men. I think the rasikas that went to his concerts during his prime were well initiated - may be they looked for some new aesthetics and wizardry unlike the earlier era. My Mother will run miles away from his Brighas - I missed lot of his local concerts because of that.

We should give credit to the women folk who kept the music in their bosom and Womb nurturing it - before YACMers could come and revive it. The whisper campaign started as I boarded the train in Madurai - by a female student of the music college there - that all these Silk sari-ed women throng to MVS concerts and go ga-ga over his Thukkadas. This kind of talk reached that far!. I will say that I spent quite a few years during my Chennai days listening to MVS's music myself as melody is indeed a lot of attraction to an youngster.

It was not until I heard some tapes shared by his students that I started appreciating TNS. I would take the accusation that his Sruti is a delta away - if people are willing to take comments on certain musicians - whose laya is weak - in fact they are not super stars just because of that.

[prashant]

[
By the way, what thalam is the RTP in? Can you please post an analysis of the pallavi?

khanDa tripuTa 2 kalai. Eduppu 2 aksharas after samam.

"nI padamulE gatiyani nammiti, rAmA rAmaCandra"

nI - 3
pa - 1 da - 1 mu - 1 lE - 3
ga - 1 ti - 1 ya - 1 ni - 3
nam - 2 mi - 1 ti - 6 [arudi]
rA - 2 mA - 3
rA - 2 ma - 2 Can - 2 dra - 1

[Rsachi]

I too figured it out, feel so happy!

[sureshvv]

There is no introspection in his singing.

Yes, Introspection is important. I suggest some serious counselling to cure your delusions of carnatic grandeur.

[kedharam]

I was going to call you dumb, but that will be insulting to dumb people

Loving it

[kvchellappa]

In markets, secondary economy (symbol economy) overtook primary economy (goods and services). Then tertiary economy (derivatives) overtook even secondary economy. (half-baked understanding of what I read in Drucker). The comments in rasikas..org often tread that course.

[shankarank]

And Derivatives are sometimes complex equations winged out of the sleeves of MIT professors

[kvchellappa]

prashant, Rsachi.. no marks. You answered out of turn!

[shankarank]

nam - 2 mi - 1 ti - 6 [arudi]

It is interesting to note that the Sri Nagaraj and TNS as well, as the neraval proceeds, gravitate towards a 7 mAtra karvai instead of the originally set 6. TNS initially elongates the rA.. ma over the beat from the position of 6 mAtra kArvai - but later both of them do rounds with 7.

The Odd 7 position not only moves away from the preceding beat - the dhIrga in rA also goes over the saShabda kriya of the second dRtam - creating viSranti beyond the viSranti of the arudhi 7 itself!

Some Reasoning around why odd 5 and 7 are preferred over even kArvais after arudhi.

One more to the staple of evidences that laya ViSranti is indeed music.

TMT rule violated. Would be Interesting to check out if TMT himself does that in his Pallavi neravals - tAraka brahma swarUpiNi (kalyANi) should be out there - will listen and revert.

TNS is probably first to pioneer neraval style sangathis in kriti renditions as well.

[MaheshS]

nam - 2 mi - 1 ti - 6 [arudi]

It is interesting to note that the Sri Nagaraj and TNS as well, as the neraval proceeds, gravitate towards a 7 mAtra karvai instead of the originally set 6. TNS initially elongates the rA.. ma over the beat from the position of 6 mAtra kArvai - but later both of them do rounds with 7.

The Odd 7 position not only moves away from the preceding beat - the dhIrga in rA also goes over the saShabda kriya of the second dRtam - creating viSranti beyond the viSranti of the arudhi 7 itself!

Some Reasoning around why odd 5 and 7 are preferred over even kArvais after arudhi.

I heard from a recent lec-dem [maybe Arun Prakash? I can't remember] where they mention that odd numbers are preferred, would love to know more details, as a laya layman, I prefer even and samam start

[Rsachi]

nam - 2 mi - 1 ti - 6 [arudi]

TNS is probably first to pioneer neraval style sangathis in kriti renditions as well.

Last year TNS gave a lecdem of Shyama Shastri kritis on Meenakshi. He did some wonderful expositions of Sarojadalanetri and other kritis, bringing out their potential. Definitely worth a watch - it is on You Tube - Parivadini series!
https://youtu.be/Lwjrp4k_7Xs

[shankarank]

Agree. Lot of good insight into how laya can be appreciated innately instead of deciphering with know how. He talks about SyAma SastrIs AAs ( kriti skeleton formation) a lot - how that should be taken advantage of.

As regards sarOja dala nEtri - I have heard renditions ( from local teachers teaching students) where purANi Suka pANi madhu dhara vEni - sadA sivuniki rANi - the Ni of vENi falls on arudhi with karvai between purANi and Suka reduced and people elongate the rest of it ( sadA sivuniki rANi) incongruently to reach samam. That is so unlike SyAma Sastri looking at his overall corpus of work. Not very intuitive and an impediment to a lucid flow and positioning of kArvais. Impediment to percussive flow as well.

The way MSS does it ( vE of vENi falling on arudhi) is the most intuitive with TKM flowing lucidly with his overlay. This version leaves the apt kArvai after purANI and there is no artificial rush - a sukam filled rendition. sadA - the dA should be pre-beat of the second dRtam sashabda kriya with dhirga going over it to get the right effect. MSS also utilizes swarakshara here for sadA - upper sa - that makes it easier to do this I think - while all others don't.

https://youtu.be/12Ayi_Bsmu0?t=988

Above MSS version in youtube has madhura vANi - don't think that goes well either - but her U.N rendition and the one in popular commercial recording has the right words madhu kara(dhara) vEni.


TNS version here : https://youtu.be/57sc4iR-vSQ?t=524 - he sings with Ni on arudhi. sada sivuniki rANi all hug the beat - he is very tentative - not as lucid as MSS. I like his sadA nammina namma Suba bimma in pallavi better than other versions.

K B Sundaramabal hugs the beat as well.

Bombay sisters and Malladi brothers - I just checked do the way MSS does until the arudhi - but do not take advantage of the phrasing in sadA sivuniki rANi - where some beat hugging takes place.

[shankarank]

MDR here : https://youtu.be/YbT8ADd4V30?t=582 does same thing as TNS for the pUrvAnga - but does sadasivuniki rANI with swaraksharam in second round and to the right effect in terms of positioning the sahitya.

MSS still best for sowkya nadai.

I think TNS and MDR reckon it in palghat style nadai for pURvAnga - but Suka pANi is rushed - with loss of sukam.

[shankarank]

MMI here : http://www.sangeethamshare.org/kl/36-MMI-AIR - about 16:15 starting parAku SEyaka - but he sets himself to palghat ways in the pUrvanga itself - no mincing - does not perturb and descend anywhere - straight hugs the beats. You can see a bit of tiSra/catuSra ambiguation in nI valadaivamulO which mridanga captures it well.

[shankarank]

https://youtu.be/12Ayi_Bsmu0?t=988

Above MSS version in youtube has madhura vANi - don't think that goes well either - but her U.N rendition and the one in popular commercial recording has the right words madhu kara(dhara) vEni.

The above ( madhura vANi) seems to match the version in MA 1960 upload:
http://www.sangeethamshare.org/murthy/K ... mi-MA1960/ - about 15:00 minutes into it.

Here I located the version I was recalling ( madhu kara vENi) - hidden in a nAdaswaram album :
http://www.sangeethamshare.org/kasturi/ ... _Bhairavi/

I thought - I will get a nadaswaram version but got this instead : Song no 9. about 08:20 minutes.

[shankarank]

MSS also utilizes swarakshara here for sadA - upper sa - that makes it easier to do this I think - while all others don't.

Looks like MSS has lot going in her favor : swarakshara - and a seminal phrase for SankarAbaraNam - sa-da that makes it dhIra SankarAbaraNam - helping her from raga perspective as well - TNS' own take in his lecture, plus the dhIrga over a saSabda kriya, and an overall lucid viSrantic flow for the entire line. The boys seem to be losing out - when scoring the music

As they ask in olden days - in your household ( ungAttulE) meenakshiyA ( maduraiya?) - chidambaramA?

[Rsachi]

madhukaraveNI means one whose tresses are shining and dense like the cluster of bees. To me that is the correct version.

[shankarank]

madhu dhara vENi - tresses that bear the flowers full of madhu ( honey)?

even if your meaning is taken : would it not be madhu - tara ?

[Rsachi]

Madhukara= bee

[shankarank]

oh! yes - got it thanks! the one who makes honey!

[shankarank]

Where else to discuss this except in thread of one of the greatest musicians of my growing up times: TNS?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUsZOpE7a1A

Professor Nallasivam explains starting at 3:20 minutes into it - a sukshmam as he calls it. Make the long vowels a long as you can, short vowels as short as you can and stress the consonants that don't have vowel endings.

In the case of namma suba bhimma - actually TNS takes some liberties when looked at against the paNNisai tradition. He shortens the mm of namma and lengthens the short vowel a.. of ma to a good musical effect. Others dwell on the consonant mm somewhat longer and mostly ornamented making it syllabic as dwelling is not possible without that. Between dwelling on vowel-less consonant the first "m" of "mm" vs. lengthening the vowel ending in ma even if it is short one - TNS I think makes a better musical choice.

He gives shape to the concept of cinnadu perisu pannuvadu in this instance - which is a viSrAnti enhancer in its own right.

[shankarank]

http://www.sangeethamshare.org/vijayago ... lai-Flute/

Sri Swaminatha Pillai - employs swaraksharam in sadA nammina as well for the sadA word.

Sri S Ramanathan does the samething here: http://www.sangeethapriya.org/Downloads/sr/syamas/

So the best of all worlds rendition ( from as much of what I have collected here so far) would be:

Do sada nammina like the above two ( SR and Swaminatha Pillai) , namma suba bimma like TNS, parAku seyaka ... ni valadaivamulO.. like MMI and purANi Suka paNi .. sadA Sivuniki rANi like MSS!

At that point it can be called pATa kadambam - for the kadamba vana vAsini