Lec-dem summary - Dec 2016

[svenkat]

As and when time permitted, I attended lectures at different venues - Arkay Convention, Parthasarathy Sabha, Naada Inbam and Music Academy. Posting a quick summary of those that stuck in my mind.

1. Sriram Parasuram @ Arkay Convention on Surrender to the Lord: Using some Hindustani music compositions as examples, he addressed the topic. It was a wide open topic and I felt that he did not do justice. There was too much vagueness and generalities that a clear message did not come through for me. His singing on that day was also so-so.

2. Pappu Venugopala Rao @ Arkay Convention on Jayadeva's Ashtapadis: Coming right after Sriram Parasuram and with a concrete topic, Pappu Venugopala Rao delivered an interesting lecture on the impact of Ashtapadis on many fields like music, dance, literature, films and even paintings. He made a startling point about how Jayadeva was the first to introduce the divine love between Radha and Krishna. Good music and dance samples were used. The lecture was a bit rushed and fast-paced and he took a dig at Sriram for eating into his time after an already late start!

3. Aniruddha Knight @ Arkay Convention on Balasaraswati and Krishna: I expected a little more lec than dem, but it was more of the latter. The Balasaraswati style needs more demystification with concrete examples but I did not get that too clearly. It felt a bit like a dance performance without direction. The orchestra was somewhat mediocre with rustic and 'loose' singing.

4. Chitravina Ravikiran @ Arkay Convention on Padams and Oothukkadu compositions: This is one passionate musician and it comes through clearly in his lectures (I attended three of them this season)! There was a fund of information, insights, intellect and swanubhavam in his points. The Oothukkadu section seemed better demonstrated than the former. Good vocal support from his students Anahita and Apoorva.

5. Gowri Ramnarayan @ Arkay Convention on a topic called Mohamaana: From the name, I could not get a sense of what this was going to be about but Gowri had a crafted a nice script for each piece which were beautifully demonstrated by Savita Narasimhan. Many Tamil padams and javalis were presented from the T. Jayammal stock with relevant anecdotes. An enjoyable session overall.

6. Kiranavali Vidyasankar @ Raga Sudha on RTPs and how MSS handled them: I already wrote about this but including again in the summary. A very engaging lecture with excellent samples and well-made points about CM history wrt women musicians in particular. MSS' musical biography needs rewriting for sure!

7. Arun Prakash @ Raga Sudha Hall on Art of Apt Mridangam accompaniment: I know some people here do not think much of his playing. I was on the same boat till this lec-dem. It was really excellent and showed him in a different light, as a deep thinker. He came up with some very good points and demonstrated them very well. I liked his mild mannered delivery and humor-filled illustrations. Amritha Murali's vocal support was not up to par that day. Not sure if she was unwell.

To be continued...

[CRama]

I could not attend any lec dem except the RTPs of MS. Thanks for posting a gist of the select lec dems. Hoping to get more.

[shankarank]

and showed him in a different light, as a deep thinker

For sada mauni in Sri dakshina mUrtE he stopped playing. That is quite a deep thinking. That is how the so called modern artists / post modern artists who adorn all the pop-fields think especially in India! Even an infantile person will think better! or somebody just blindly following a Guru will have a better result!

Next the singer has to stop singing the words following mauni - at least he/she has to sing up to that word otherwise the listeners will not understand why they stayed maunam rest of the line!

The issue is not his vidvat - it is his mode of presentation where Mridangam has lost its emphasis! And Mridangam goes to extreme levels of modulation almost the equivalent of crooning in voices. We are giving away to the narrative that we can only enjoy songs - based on experience we gained from watching movies. anda pATTu, inda pATTu, pudusA edAvadu pATTu pODungappa!. And melodic sound alone is music - music that is considered pleasurable to their ears by people as the musicologist defined it when asserting there is no science in music - and melody creates moods!

Basically we have bought into the pop-narrative - that too the Indian adoption of some vague half baked western import!

Even in the western world - they take the background tracks of instruments and play it in many radio channels!

[svenkat]

Shankarank, I have felt what you say about his mode of presentation. This lec-dem, if nothing, gave a glimpse of his thinking. I attended this lecture only to see what his justification is for the way he accompanies a TMK or a RKM. He looks like an out-of-the-box thinker. I saw him accompany differently in a Carnatica brothers concert sometime ago, in a more filling manner. Perhaps it is also the musician he accompanies?

[mahavishnu]

and showed him in a different light, as a deep thinker

For sada mauni in Sri dakshina mUrtE he stopped playing. That is quite a deep thinking. That is how the so called modern artists / post modern artists who adorn all the pop-fields think especially in India! Even an infantile person will think better! or somebody just blindly following a Guru will have a better result!

Next the singer has to stop singing the words following mauni - at least he/she has to sing up to that word otherwise the listeners will not understand why they stayed maunam rest of the line!

The issue is not his vidvat - it is his mode of presentation where Mridangam has lost its emphasis! And Mridangam goes to extreme levels of modulation almost the equivalent of crooning in voices. We are giving away to the narrative that we can only enjoy songs - based on experience we gained from watching movies. anda pATTu, inda pATTu, pudusA edAvadu pATTu pODungappa!. And melodic sound alone is music - music that is considered pleasurable to their ears by people as the musicologist defined it when asserting there is no science in music - and melody creates moods!

Shankarank: I normally don't understand your posts at all. But I understood this one and I am with you 100%.

[shankarank]

Thanks for your appreciation mahavishnu! At least I was able to connect once. You may also find my post #11 here somewhat similar

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26663

- and I may not be able to make sense in all the aspects which I had in mind (in that post) - those include snide comments by some lower level artistes (especially the asaukyam part!) about other leading artistes heard via others talking about it etc.

[pravaktha91]

I am glad that there is a sizable population who disagree with the so called 'vidwat' of accompaniment of Mr Arun Prakash. There are people who know how to play and accompany songs on the Mridangam and they do the same nicely. Some people do not know how to do that, yet they play Some know how to play but they DO NOT play. Now I am not clear as to which group Mr. Arun Prakash belongs to

I am sure that his revered Guru did not play the way he is currently advocating. I wish the aspiring students do not get misled by his sessions. We have lot of sound tracks and videos wherein great masters of yesteryear's and our current times have performed. Why can't we set those as a benchmark and build on them?

The Emperor Absolutely Has No Clothes, I have belled the cat

[Sivaramakrishnan]

As and when time permitted, I attended lectures at different venues......
Aniruddha Knight @ Arkay Convention on Balasaraswati and Krishna: I expected a little more lec than dem, but it was more of the latter. The Balasaraswati style needs more demystification with concrete examples but I did not get that too clearly. It felt a bit like a dance performance without direction. The orchestra was somewhat mediocre with rustic and 'loose' singing.

But I liked Anirudha's presentation very much, for

*he demonstrated how the quality of music is a deciding factor for a good dance performance.

*The 'demystification' aspect was quite clear (seeing was believing!)

* Orchestra was the right one for a lecdem.

[sankark]

I am sure that his revered Guru did not play the way he is currently advocating. I wish the aspiring students do not get misled by his sessions. We have lot of sound tracks and videos wherein great masters of yesteryear's and our current times have performed. Why can't we set those as a benchmark and build on them?

Was that satire?

Anyways, if not, ARI would have known how great masters and yesteryear's greats that he had seen and heard had structured the concerts and so he didn't need to construct a new paddathi/bAni, whatever? He should have simply built on that!

[semmu86]

We have lot of sound tracks and videos wherein great masters of yesteryear's and our current times have performed. Why can't we set those as a benchmark and build on them?

Its an issue that is extremely delicate. The truth is, if at all the accompanists try to maintain high standards, they will NOT get called for subsequent concerts. Barring a few, most vocalists wont encourage pakkavadhyam doing that. Vidwans like TKM have gone on record in public saying that he advises his disciples not to play the way he teaches them, else "kutcheri naDakkAdhu".

The Emperor Absolutely Has No Clothes, I have belled the cat

This opinion may not be received popularly here, due to whatever baffling reasons. I for one personally, not a fan of "Kissing-the-baby in the mouth" kind of accompaniment, in the name of "embellishment", which sounds extremely pseudo.

[shankarank]

I am sure that his revered Guru did not play the way he is currently advocating. I wish the aspiring students do not get misled by his sessions. We have lot of sound tracks and videos wherein great masters of yesteryear's and our current times have performed. Why can't we set those as a benchmark and build on them?

Its an issue that is extremely delicate. The truth is, if at all the accompanists try to maintain high standards, they will NOT get called for subsequent concerts. Barring a few, most vocalists wont encourage pakkavadhyam doing that. Vidwans like TKM have gone on record in public saying that he advises his disciples not to play the way he teaches them, else "kutcheri naDakkAdhu".

TKM preserved (based on what I have heard from Authoritative sources)) the original bANi of Tanjavur Vaidyanatha Iyer. Which means PMI did not play like his guru! Then on to the next gen ( PR, UKS et.al ) did not play like anybody before, Pazhani included. CSM had aspects of pudukOTTai bANi, but as per authoritative sources , he is the beneficiary of listening to PMI , Pazhani and others - and then coming to stage - maravarin veeram as one Vidvan characterized his playing.

KRM did not play like anybody else! One artiste, not professional but almost professional grade, characterized him as - avar Mridangam taniyai teriyumbaDi vAsippavar ( he will play in a way that his playing is visible separately) for which I had to retort - it is not his issue - the vocalists have not done enough sAdhakam to hide him! nAn vAsikka kiLambina kAlatilE periyava ellArum illAmal poi viTTanar ( when I set out to play , all the stalwarts were not there around!) rues he!

You see the issue is not about whether somebody plays like their fore bearers. The issue is, here, we have forgotten what classicism means in the Indian context - even as we imported that term to distinguish what we might call as folk art/classical art in our gamut!

When ManpUdia (mAmoodia pillai) took his vAdyam - the Ganjira - essentially some skin which might have had a role in funeral processions - and interacted with Bhajanai ManDalis around Thanjavur Jilla and PudukOTTai - do we classify the Bhajanai as elite classical and ManpUndia Pillai as folk at that point of time??

How did he and his disciples manage to get that vAdyam onto the stage?

Have we entirely forgotten the term sanskriti or chemmai!!!! ????

Roll forward to Golden era! An ardent rasika - Thanjavur/Marathi origin - was listening to uncha-vriddhi procession at Thiruvaiyaru Aradhana. Described the scene as - orE koochchal! ( all shouts and din!) - except what stood out was Pazhani's Ganjira! So the shouts and din are to be classified as folk?? - and Pazhani's Ganjira as classical??

Lets head to film music to delve into what I mean as Sanskriti!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-g24NwHGC0

Listen and also read the comments all the way down! The simile used by Kannadasan in (தேன் தரும் வாழை) puts him in the league of KalidAsa and the very definition of sAhitya. The first Sloka that defines sangIta and sAhitya as explained utilizes the same simile!

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24158449?s ... b_contents

I don't think the director / producer curated the words of kavinzhar to fit their likes and dislikes - so I desist from using the word lyrics even as a translation for this.

And the music by Viswanathan , and rendition by Smt P. Susheela and Dr BMK is definitely sangIta! I cannot sense any crooning. Dr BMK may have fallen prey to a crooning trend even on the CM stage in his later years ( P.S Swamy Sabha post the year 2000) - but certainly he is not doing one in that film song!

And a rasika who lapped it up uses chemmozhi to describe the experience https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n46fl1GFXcc. He did not superficially describe it as pleasing to ears. He is using words like "caressing the arteries in people's hearts!" There is a lot of depth in that - more than just a reference to emotional appeal or music pleasing to hear! Also the rasika talks about the originality of every singer of that era! The rasika is an Atheist in the now prevalent sense of the word.

But I contend that all of them had Sanskriti or chemmai tanmai! if you prefer the later.

Can this tune be ported to Hindi or anywhere else that easily? Now every film song has a portable tune!! Film music can move any which way it wants. But what should be the role and direction of something we consider as traditional music , heritage music?

Back to this link:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24158449?s ... b_contents

The sa in sangIta , sa in sAhitya, is the same sa in sanskriti - is the same "sa" that Sri HMB describes in sangIta kalpadruma - the sound "sa" the first sound of creation - a bag of vAyu pierced with a Usi ( pin) produces that sound.

So came the word sah - the puruShah - rasO vai sah avers the Upanishad. The declensions themselves change form to tasya, tasmAt!

That sense of the sound as divine form is synonymous with the sense that a Guru is to be revered as divine or Motherhood as divine. If one of them is denied - all of them are denied by implication! sangIta should tie us back to that root of our heritage! We have a good philosophy of oneness where we should end up, but we forget the theory of many-ness where we started and where we exist!

The way the conversations are being had - that sense is not present! Those terms are replaced by art, lyrics, literature, classical , folk. In defining classical/folk - the Bhajan form itself is "othered" as religious and hence not an art! And then the classical/folk dichotomies are discussed.

If we have difficulties in having a conversation with the west about what we have, then that cannot be the basis with which we should turn around our own sense of what we have! An external gazer will view it as a statistical average of everything he sees and will not look at the roots. He/She will bring in new concepts of inclusiveness and plurality. Plurality itself is a conundrum in their environments - not applicable to the Indian gamut.

Arunprakash faces this conundrum - as he says nan vasikkavillai yendRAl - angE varavillaiyE! ( I am not playing in a certain way because I don't see it coming from the singer!). But then he himself has fallen prey to that tendency to curate the output to some new sense of "pleasing to the ear" that has been imported into the whole gamut.

He is also apologetic about the new forms like Abhang ( it has arrived - so we have to be prepared to play for it!).

Look, the Golden era musicians even at its dawn did not sing anything like anybody before!

The new classicists are people - elitists - who indeed walk out of a taniyAvartanam for example - not understanding the true underpinning of the sangIta and have no appreciation of other folk forms like for e.g. villu pATTu.

I will tell you - I have listened to villu pATTu in Ayodhya Madapam by Thiru Subbu Arumugam. You can see the level of sAdhakam in that - certainly it would be more sanskritic or chemmai than any ill prepared classical singer today!

[mahavishnu]

Following Semmu's very valuable post, I would like to clarify certain things about my position on this.

The art of mridangam playing has certain basic guidelines upon which one may introduce novelties in presentation. There are some ways of innovating: kai (particular finger techniques), nadai amaippu (how to set up the gait of accompaniment) and kanakku (the complexity of the mathematical arrangements). Although it is true that everyone, including KAP, play the same sollus, how and where to play them is where the debate is. We are not just talking about sparseness or busy-ness of the space, but the way the rhythm and time-keeping can enhance the concert experience. The classification of mridangists into those that play hard or soft is a very shallow and does not reflect all the complexities of accompaniment. I wish even seasoned rasikas would stay away from that primitive categorization.

Here are some general points that I would like to make regarding other comments on this thread so far.

1) "Preferred accompanist" idea: To RSachi's point about preferred mridangists. There are several political reasons for this, including those that Semmu mentioned (also shankarank). For example KAP and Sanjay were inseparable some 10 years ago and today it will be hard to find them in the same pin code! I am sure their personal differences etc have something to do with this. While style may have some small part to play in it, many of these combinations are established for social and other reasons of compatibility of personality etc. When such differences don't come in to play, most musicians like to have accompanists that will enhance the concert in the way the deem fit. Some just go with the most familiar styles and are loyal to their friends and well wishers. I also do not deny that for some people KAP's style might be perfectly suited for what kind of presence they wish to establish on stage.

2) "Necessity of innovation" idea: I would very much like to ask KAP this question. unga guru vasichadule enna korachalnu neenga ipdi vasikkarel? What did you find lacking in your guru's playing that you have decided to play like this? This is qualitatively different from ARI innovating a kutcheri format that Poochi did not come up with. The reason for this is: in Poochi's times the need to have a structured concert format was probably not there and all that ARI did was repackage some things in a certain order. He did not change Poochi's patantaram or decide to sing "sada mouni" with a hushed voice, so he could make a point. He might have streamlined sangatis or organized things in a certain way, but did not change the fundamental nature of the idiom. In this I agree with Shankarank's general point about how the various styles have evolved in terms of innovation. Changes of this kind are most welcome and CM would be dead without such changes in its evolutionary history.

3) Now for the accompanying style. This is more in response to Nick's post. Yes, I do play the mridangam (not as well as I would like) and I understand your general position. However, there are certain rules of playing that have emerged over the last century that are common across all schools and playing styles, for structuring a tani or for the general rules for accompanying/nadai ammaippu. The artistic liberty one has is in how the spaces can be with filled with appropriate embellishments, how sensitive one is to the bhavam of the music and the general meaning/import of the song. None of this includes being silent for some lyrics as a way to enhance the presentation!

4) Borrowing from other styles: First of all, there is nothing new about Abhangs. If you talk to a good mridangam historian like KS Kalidas, you will notice the marathi/bhakti movement origins of the mridangam played a very important role in the adaptation of it into the south indian playing style. Good mridangists like Thanjavur Ramadasa Rao have even borrowed from the styles of the pakhawaj. As a side note, if you heard the late vidwan TV Vasan play the mridangam, you can see a strong influence of even ghatam playing styles. There are important ways in which playing for dance (sadir) has influenced accompanying styles. If you listen to UKS or KRM accompany the paras tillana or chelinenetlu, you can see the nadai development to be extremely reminiscent of dance accompaniment. In a grander way, PSP borrowed so much from thavil playing into modern mridangam techniques (including how they play kita thaka thari ki ta thom). See Trichy Sankaran's rasikas lec dem on this for more info. Innovations of this kind are welcome and they are key to the health and sustainability of CM.

5) Now back to KAP. I do not see anything of KAP does as innovation. IMHO, minimalism is not a style. Yes, there is some beauty to the occasionally minimalism, but silence is golden only in the context of speech. When you overdo the minimalism, it reflects a certain lackadaisical quality that does not bode well for the mridangist.

If I had the time, I would like to take every piece in that lec-dem and provide clips where the great masters have innovated and even contrast the styles (as I have offered to do before). But alas, I have been so swamped with work lately that I barely even get time to read all the interesting posts here.

I have nothing but respect for KAP's vidwat and his control of the instrument and its tone. Nalla kai and gnanam about several aspects of music. However, I think his stylistic interpretation and philosophy of accompaniment is wrong (or at least very different from my views). I understand that this is also a matter of taste. But this is my opinion, for what it is worth. Again, this is not the first time we are having this discussion here.

I am glad that this thread has brought out an honest discussion of mridangam playing styles. I hope we can have a nicely curated discussion with samples and good example clips sometime in the near future.

5) I will leave you with a superb example of what I think good accompaniment is. Trichy Sankaran with Ramnad Krishnan/Lalgudi. What majesty, what superb nadai development! https://soundcloud.com/ramesh-balasubra ... sriranjani (Mridangam starts at about 9:27). Headphones recommended. Just for example, just follow the subtlety and the understated elegance in the short tirmanam's porutham between the pallavi and anupallavi and the beauty of sarvalaghu that follows. Talk about sensitivity to the composition's structure and the knowledge of its subtleties.

As my grandmother would say: Idhukku ennada korachalnu nee innovate panra? That too for a person who comes from the abovementioned lineage.

[sankark]

You see the issue is not about whether somebody plays like their fore bearers. The issue is, here, we have forgotten what classicism means in the Indian context - even as we imported that term to distinguish what we might call as folk art/classical art in our gamut!

Would be good to listen to your thoughts on what classicism means in the Indian context. But in a separate thread and not hijack this thread.

Believe you are using chemmai/sanskriti as in refinement.

[semmu86]

I am glad that this thread has brought out an honest discussion of mridangam playing styles. I hope we can have a nicely curated discussion with samples and good example clips sometime in the near future.

Great post Ramesh, agree with you on each and every point that you mentioned. Its a pity that paucity of time never really allowed the discussions we had a while ago, about the laya giants of the previous generations, with sharing some specific tracks and discussing their contribution and style. Hope we can do it soon.

5) I will leave you with a superb example of what I think good accompaniment is. Trichy Sankaran with Ramnad Krishnan/Lalgudi. What majesty, what superb nadai development! https://soundcloud.com/ramesh-balasubra ... sriranjani (Mridangam starts at about 9:27). Headphones recommended. Just for example, just follow the subtlety and the understated elegance in the short tirmanam's porutham between the pallavi and anupallavi and the beauty of sarvalaghu that follows. Talk about sensitivity to the composition's structure and the knowledge of its subtleties.

The accompaniment for "sarievvarE mA jAnaki" in that concert is another timeless example of accompaniment embellishing the paatu.

[sureshvv]

Why can't we set those as a benchmark and build on them?

This is not a building sir.. It is an art form. For an artiste, their innermost convictions are of primary importance. KAP has described these values elsewhere.

The "venom" in your post is uncalled for. Same goes for some the other "passionate" posters.

[shankarank]

Would be good to listen to your thoughts on what classicism means in the Indian context. But in a separate thread and not hijack this thread.

Believe you are using chemmai/sanskriti as in refinement.

We seem to live in an era where wealth of visuals are available to explain terms/ideas. https://youtu.be/fnV5jeJNFFg?t=559 The way MSV remembers Dr BMK for the 4 note raga called Mahati is the Guru Bhava - Dr BMK becomes Guru MUrthy!. That feeling comes out of an eco system that considers sounds/letters as divine! He doesn't have to do that. There may not be many who may even know about that in that crowd. So even if took credit all to himself he may not be found out. Dr BMK may be already some unknown Andhra guy for many of them even if they had heard him/ heard about him.

Whereas MSV himself has become just an IDOL now in the eyes of the questioner. He can be set aside for the next IDOL as time passes! The questioner is focused on the technique: the 4 Notes that became a rAgA apparently!

That is the difference between MUrthy and an IDOL. The sacred sense vs just an appreciation of refinement.

So this is beyond the physical structure of things that be discerned in a lab!

[semmu86]

This is not a building sir.. It is an art form.

Well, we all know it. Raghu Sir, when he was the SK designate, told in his MA lec-dem that "Elders used to put a foundation and would ask us to create a structure". So, was he talking like a Civil engineer that time? Am sure you got the meaning of what pravaktha91 was trying to convey. So am wondering if this statement of yours was actually called for!!!!

The "venom"

The discussions have so far been as honest and constructive as possible. If you immediately jump with a question in the lines of whom are we to certify what is embellishing accompaniment, then am afraid the discussions would go nowhere. We have all tried to justify what is great accompaniment by sharing some wonderful tracks accompanied by great Mrudanga vidwans in their respective threads, a while back. So I personally havent seen any "venom" so far in this thread, yet.

[sureshvv]

Sometimes a paradigm shift is necessary. KAP is like fresh air in an environment filled with high decibel / high speed / applause chasing artistry. That is why he is sought after by many senior and sensitive artistes.

I find that most "lay people" are delighted KAP's play. The "critics" on the other hand seem very bothered. Probably it is harder for them to be "in the moment".

[shankarank]

Sometimes a paradigm shift is necessary. KAP is like fresh air in an environment filled with high decibel / high speed / applause chasing artistry.

The high decibal / high speed/applause chasing artistry is the infantile artiste that I referred to that will refine itself as the artiste matures and gains experience. It is the result of a frustration and a reflection of audience getting uprooted - not grounded in the culture! That we don't know or not intent on putting the effort into how to manage Mikes and balance various components cannot become the basis of development of a new form of expression.

You had to write only one line to critique that - it is that simple. But what is taking place with KAP to borrow your words but with a different sense, is a paradigm shift - which you think is for something as just an art!. It is a fundamental shift at the root of cultural thinking which has not occurred before. His comment that Dikshitar is a note based composer says a lot . Complete western representation in the choice of words and the way he says it.

Hence we had to belabor with lot of writing as we do live in a western paradigm dominated world - and hence the readers may not understand what we are saying.

If it is something like the high decibal artistry - a line of comment is good enough to criticize that!

That is why he is sought after by many senior and sensitive artistes.

That is the new expedience, a lack of traditional sAdhakam, putting more onus on the Mike to carry the cosmetic sound, and also the new belief that their some mellifluous melodic expression is what the audience is looking for. Everything else drops!

I find that most "lay people" are delighted KAP's play

The new film sport fans!

The "critics" on the other hand seem very bothered. Probably it is harder for them to be "in the moment".

I guess I fall into the "not read" category in the answer to the question "have they read?". This "in the moment" stuff does not mean anything. I cannot find any meaning for that in the cultural tradition. I called this one of those "half baked western imports". Also the artiste ( I guess I should switch to the term vidvan) by himself does not communicate anything here - a concept that is mentioned in the west! The "kala" is a representation of the past, present and continuation into the future. The forms can be added to ( even change may not be accurate as a total purging of the old does not happen - some replacements may happen based on vetting by the Guru Sishya parampara). The underlying substance does not change and is connected to roots.

[sankark]

His comment that Dikshitar is a note based composer says a lot . Complete western representation in the choice of words and the way he says it.

Haven't caught the lecdem recording in parivadini channel, yet. Is this comment there? Time reference?

What exactly is the wording in tamil, if the lecdem was in tamil.

[shankarank]

Somewhere after this: https://youtu.be/whTsCoTR6nQ?t=3048

[varsha]

I hope we can have a nicely curated discussion with samples and good example clips sometime in the near future.

mahavishnu
I have started a thread . under laya .
A long overdue effort at rasikas.org.Please educate us. All of you, who can.

[sureshvv]

The high decibal / high speed/applause chasing artistry is the infantile artiste that I referred to that will refine itself as the artiste matures and gains experience. It is the result of a frustration and a reflection of audience getting uprooted - not grounded in the culture!

Some of these are very senior artistes with established schools. "Infantile" does not seem appropriate. I don't understand the next line. Who is getting uprooted?

Hence we had to belabor with lot of writing as we do live in a western paradigm dominated world - and hence the readers may not understand what we are saying.

<snip>


This "in the moment" stuff does not mean anything. I cannot find any meaning for that in the cultural tradition. I called this one of those "half baked western imports".

"In the moment" is quintessentially Indian. Unfortunately it is you that has to cast everything in "Western culture influence" terms. May be you watch too much of Barkha Dutt.

One way of being "in the moment" is to be able to listen to an artiste on his terms without wondering who his Guru is, what his lineage is or how his Guru may react to his interpretation of the art on that particular day. The minute one lets their mind wander off like this, they are a lost cause

[shankarank]

Well with reference to high decibel artistes - there are those who bring a certain nuance with it (for e.g a heightened awareness of viSranti in the kriti - and that is not via some individual artiste conviction or intellect rather purely by a certain sAdhakam and a continuity of their schools) and those that don't - the latter may just bring some cliche structures of their schools. The former actually add value. In many cases the high decibel is noticeable due to apparent lack of ganam, voice fullness, delivery in the vocal artiste in question. It may also be a badly balanced audio on that particular day.

We have to get into actual names regarding that - which may be distasteful ( well KAP named and analyzed is an exception for a good reason ) - but IMO Mridangam has lost its sheen quite a while back - pre-YACM during the dark age of CM. There are few in the YACM generation that bring some substance to it. In the post YACM ones it seems to be picking up - just like the vocalists themselves are bringing old verve back.

One way of being "in the moment" is to be able to listen to an artiste on his terms without wondering who his Guru is, what his lineage is or how his Guru may react to his interpretation of the art on that particular day. The minute one lets their mind wander off like this, they are a lost cause

Well I don't think that is the way I would interpret continuity of tradition or the basis of commentary or critique on a vidvAn . As I have explained before - so many diversity of styles we have enjoyed - without doing exactly that.

It is a certain sanskritic sense that has been lost when compared to the golden era. This is overall - not specifically referring to KAP. He may have a higher sense of abstraction in fact - but is taking a thinking and presentational approach that is at odds with the underlying structural wealth - just so to deliver some aural pleasure.

There are many pop-artists within CM - and many us may have been fans of one. But at least they brought us inside. They draw crowds by the 1000s. At least they deliver that. For core traditional artistes to get a 200+ and a musicians musician , an upcoming, to draw a 50, that draw of 1000 is a necessity.

We should also understand why MSS ( is she a pop artist?) is the greatest thing for our culture and why she is a Bharat Ratna! The CM community had so much trouble understanding the worth of her popularity. She added to the music and did not purge any classicism! So did Dr BMK. He finished knowing and doing what existed when we was young and he then added to it.

KAP is sitting before the most captive core rasikas and he is not doing justice to increase their rasanai. If he is a pop artiste and delivers a lot of crowd - I would just "other" him that way and leave him alone!

[pravaktha91]

This thread is developing into a quiet interesting one.

Thanks to semmu86 for making my job easier. He has hit the bull's eye when he referred to Raghu sir's lecture demonstration at the MA.

Also, thanks to mr sureshvv for letting me know that this is an art form and not a building All I would say is that "please do not behave like Mr. Rahul Gandhi" Venom - What's that?

Now a small clarification about the following the Guru. I just meant that one should confirm to the approach (with individual artistry of course). Someone talked about ARI inventing the present concert format. So are we equating that AP is also doing something like that, a new methodology of accompaniment? I remember Dr TK Murthy speaking in an interview - most of the time when TKM formulated new korvais or ideas, PMI would say (context - when TKM and PMI were under Thanjavur Vaidyanatha Iyer) that it has already been tried and tested. (Now that does not mean that everything is available and nothing needs to be done). We have Shri KRM building (Yes BUILDING ) a new Bani... that was something different.

Mr AP's interpretation of kritis and playing for them, to me, is ABSURD. Having said that, I fully agree that he knows the job, he has been there for a very long time (yeah, he doesn't need a certification from me, I know that as well )

And not to forget his presentation (laced with so called jokes)... I have heard Trichy Sankaran saying in a speech that when he used to play with PSP, he was unaware of rest of the world - that was the level of attention he had and I am sure that he continues to have that level even now. I am also sure that all other vidwans of his class and the vidwans of PSP's class also had the same approach. Here we have a person saying "jaaliya (jolly) vashikkalam.... " in some other lec-dem video. Jaali in Punjabi means fraud Now whom should we go with - with AP or TS? Accompaniment is a serious business and not a jaaali or jolly business BTW.... You do not crack jokes for the heck of it, it should make others laugh... here the person who 'cracks the joke' laughs, none else laugh-including the other artists who are on the platform along with him. Maybe we are too ignorant to understand his jokes, like we are trying hard to understand his accompaniment innovations.

Let me reiterate - (not going into the subjects of high decibel playing, POP music etc) We have heard PMI, PSP, CSM - one benchmark; TKM, PR, UKS, TS, KRM - another benchmark. Now, how can we say that the approach advocated by Mr AP brings freshness and it is innovative when we compare to the approaches of these individuals that I have mentioned here? Hope Mr AP's advocates can convince all of us who think otherwise. Please do not talk about high decibels.... all these people know/knew when to raise the decibel, when to play softly and when not to play and remain silent. I would request all those to hear recordings of these masters and then have a relook at their thinking. They know/knew music thoroughly, some of them used to teach masters like Alathur Brothers and KVN. Some of them are/were themselves very good singers ( at a sophisticated concert level, YES at a concert level)

One should have the proper 'laya-bodham' as great masters say - to appreciate the accompaniment. Its not just soft padding and sitting quiet with lots of nonsensical and absurd theories woven around it. I have seen when kids bang on something, or when you ask them to play for a song (any song for that matter), some of them just do it the right way unknowingly. So, people say hey - that kid has good 'laya gnanam' or 'laya bodham' - why don't you put him to learn Mridangam or Tabla? This is the thought that I have when I talk about Laya-Bodham or Laya-Gnanam
Well.. I have written a big essay. Let us agree to disagree

[shankarank]

"In the moment" is quintessentially Indian. Unfortunately it is you that has to cast everything in "Western culture influence" terms. May be you watch too much of Barkha Dutt.

Actually I don't. I listen to lot of TMK though! He utilizes such terms in his narrative. Essentially this means asking listeners to be consumers walking into a store. Lets leave anybody with some training or lakshana gnana! Rest of them come with a sense of being in the eco system. He is asking them to treat it as a new commodity they see in the Shelf! A new improved tooth paste!

Well a better analogy is we have to become tourists into a new exotic land every time with no pre-conceived notions , with lot of curiosity - something that sounds very post modern. So the issue of plurality and inclusiveness is to be addressed this way.

I will say again - if they say these things to people outside the eco system and turn out 1000s of new people using this - more power to them. At that point we can stop reviewing them with our pre-conceived notions.

People like TMK should stop lecturing the people already in the eco-system! We absolutely will bring some pre-conceived notions into our critiques! A traditional art has to - otherwise there is no tradition left!

Back to KAP: I sense some condescension in KAP's presentation all through. Also every commentary on him has touted him as the most sought after or most desirable Mridangist - not sure if that is really true.

Here are some samples: http://srutimag.blogspot.com/2012/11/mu ... ch_27.html Pakka-vadhya Dharmam??? An Mridangist is not accompanying the main artiste - a violinist may be as he is constrained by the melodic take!. A mridangist is accompanying the composer, the sanskriti of the tradition ( this even in swarams) , and the singer all at the same time!

If these things are true we must be very much worried and bothered!

[sankark]

Somewhere after this: https://youtu.be/whTsCoTR6nQ?t=3048

Thanks. Here is a rough translation of that tanglish.

Muthuswami Dikshitar kirtanam's require patience. Once one gets to understand the structure, we will understand that it requires patience to play for. They have a different gait compared to Thyagaraja's compositions. They are majestic, that's the word I would use, majestic. We all know he is one one of the greatest composer. He has played with the swarams, in each kirtanai, the movement of swarams. Actually we can call him a note based composer. He has thought extensively on the basis of notes and composed, one can't predict how the next movement (prayOgam) will be setup based on the current movement. Unbelievable. I didn't get those compositions. I started to understand them, a little now

The bold is actually his statement in English itself no translation required. I believe the message he wanted to convey is that MD has played with swarams and has thought so much on them and constructed unbelievable movements. And the issue is that he has used the word "note" as an equivalent of "swaram".

YMMV

[shankarank]

You have translated it very well and this will make perfect sense to a westerner as well as Indians who are using that gaze. I have written all across the forum and you should read all my posts carefully in various threads and then you will be able to write a commentary or criticism on it based on the Indian heritage point of view!

The issue is not about something as simple as translating swaram to note or note to swaram although that by itself can be debated separately!

Basically your translation fully confirms what I understood from what he said. He has reduced it to the universal common denominator ( actually western universal common denominator) as to what type of composer Dikshitar is! He only wants to say what the west can understand and that is the entire characterization of Diskhitar to an Audience in Nada Inbam.

I will say this much now hoping that you all ruminate over and pour over the translation above for sometime!

[sureshvv]

Also, thanks to mr sureshvv for letting me know that this is an art form and not a building All I would say is that "please do not behave like Mr. Rahul Gandhi" Venom - What's that?

May be something that seeps out of your keyboard without your knowledge ?

Now a small clarification about the following the Guru. I just meant that one should confirm to the approach (with individual artistry of course). Someone talked about ARI inventing the present concert format. So are we equating that AP is also doing something like that, a new methodology of accompaniment?

We will know the answer to this only after a 100 years. How long has it been since ARI?

Here we have a person saying "jaaliya (jolly) vashikkalam.... " in some other lec-dem video. Jaali in Punjabi means fraud Now whom should we go with - with AP or TS? Accompaniment is a serious business and not a jaaali or jolly business BTW....

Oh Please... Give the man a break!

I am sure he did not mean the Punjabi meaning, What he meant was that he enjoys the playing.
When a sports person or a computer programmer or a journalist says they are "having fun", it does not mean that they are not concentrating. It means they are enjoying the work.

You do not crack jokes for the heck of it, it should make others laugh... here the person who 'cracks the joke' laughs, none else laugh-including the other artists who are on the platform along with him. Maybe we are too ignorant to understand his jokes, like we are trying hard to understand his accompaniment innovations.

Looks like you have some personal rivalry. May be his jokes were not of the same high caliber as yours (Punjabi jaali and Rahul Gandhi type). So what?

Let me reiterate - (not going into the subjects of high decibel playing, POP music etc) We have heard PMI, PSP, CSM - one benchmark; TKM, PR, UKS, TS, KRM - another benchmark. Now, how can we say that the approach advocated by Mr AP brings freshness and it is innovative when we compare to the approaches of these individuals that I have mentioned here? Hope Mr AP's advocates can convince all of us who think otherwise.

The names you have picked are from a different generation. We will know the answer tto your question when the next generation comes along.

Please do not talk about high decibels.... all these people know/knew when to raise the decibel, when to play softly and when not to play and remain silent. I would request all those to hear recordings of these masters and then have a relook at their thinking. They know/knew music thoroughly, some of them used to teach masters like Alathur Brothers and KVN. Some of them are/were themselves very good singers ( at a sophisticated concert level, YES at a concert level)

Looks like you listen primarily to dead people.

[shankarank]

We will know the answer to this only after a 100 years. How long has it been since ARI?

We will know the answer tto your question when the next generation comes along.

Looks like you listen primarily to dead people

There is no next generation or 100 years to wait and know something. What we are being given is a new experience ( not even refreshing - completely new) every performance. And then it dies. The artistry resurrects itself the next time and gives us a completely hitherto unknown experience! So whatever happened before/happens every time is already/immediately dead history. If recording captures it - there is some history for historians to write about objectively. As objective as how TMK writes about MSS!

This is universal music for everyone - they only need senses - even machines will be able to listen to it in due course.

http://www.rushkoff.com/books/throwing- ... oogle-bus/

The google bus and the beggar musician on the pavement in the Bay area - quite a conundrum - as engineers increased property value to throw the musicians out of Bay area - and also replace them eventually and also give company to listeners, both living-dead!

If it is for everyone - then it is no one's music. And also it is dead right after it is experienced. So nothing/nobody to think of/about after 100 years - no basis.

Total contradiction?! Nah makes perfect sense!

[sankark]

You have translated it very well and this will make perfect sense to a westerner as well as Indians who are using that gaze. I have written all across the forum and you should read all my posts carefully in various threads and then you will be able to write a commentary or criticism on it based on the Indian heritage point of view!

Will do, but that requires some deep-thought time which is in short supply because of a wealth of youtube videos vying for attention. Think your point is that you look at a thing from its own heritage point of view and not with the specs that are tinted to a different culture/heritage's hues. And vocabulary shapes/limits thought.

Having said that, removing that one sentence of "notes based composer", the rest of his statements are just right within Indian milieu, IMO

Muthuswami Dikshitar kirtanam's require patience. Once one gets to understand the structure, we will understand that it requires patience to play for. They have a different gait compared to Thyagaraja's compositions. They are majestic, that's the word I would use, majestic. We all know he is one one of the greatest composer. He has played with the swarams, in each kirtanai, the movement of swarams. He has thought extensively on the basis of notes (a very imperfect approximation of the concept of swaram in CM) and composed, one can't predict how the next movement (prayOgam) will be setup based on the current movement. Unbelievable. I didn't get those compositions. I started to understand them, a little now

[talalaya]

It is with some interest I happened to follow the acerbic wit and wisdom certain members (Mahavishnu, Semmu, Pravaktha etc..) here have towards the vidwath of certain Mrudangam artists, especially Arun Prakash. I wonder if they are disciples of any other artists, to decry such a vidwan like ArunPrakash in public.

I wish they know and learn how to play Mrudangam before realizing how tough it is to play like that. We all know that Arun Prakash is probably the most favored accompanist by today's top musicians and that speaks volumes about his vidwath.

[mahavishnu]

Talalaya: First, you wonder if we are rival mridangam artistes and then you wonder if we know how to play the mridangam!

No conspiracies here. It might be easier to engage if you could counter the arguments directly (or read the posts themselves). Most of us do this here, despite differences in our opinions.

And welcome to the forum!

[shankarank]

We all know that Arun Prakash is probably the most favored accompanist by today's top musicians and that speaks volumes about his vidwath

Everybody knows about his vidwath for example - doing 7 over 4 or 5 over 4. Nobody does that these days. The issue we are discussing is how artistry and presentational choices made by KAP have affected both singers and the tastes of rasikas. KAP is an example of things that have affected us - and he is a clear example in that.

Given the fact he is established - don't think our comments are going to make a dent on his professional career. There may a branch of musical fans for this, now that it has come to stay. But the criticism is to help other musicians/rasikas as to what are things that are valuable in our tradition - based purely on listening experience of some of us here.

Having said that, removing that one sentence of "notes based composer", the rest of his statements are just right within Indian milieu, IMO

Not quite. If you listen to his feelings post the davalAngi demonstration - the key thing that is being sidelined there is apart from how swaras move, what is the metrical structure of the movements. Mridangist is supposed to watch that and embellish that. The sAhitya provides two musical components - the arrangement and flow of syllables over the tAla scale and the vallina mellina contrast of the syllables.

The under-current in all narratives now a days seem to be to downplay this even as a musical value - you see sAhitya is all mythical - nobody can relate to it now a days - it is part of an oppressive past. KAP may not realize this - he is getting into it with a sense of : dikshitars swara arrangement is awesome and my job is not to interfere with it. His statement that it can be all played in toppi is good - but where is the majestic toppi sound and the flow with the syllabic flow on temporal scale? Majesty is only in the composition? How about bringing it out?

The narrative that music in CM sense is only the swaras is an attempt to be intelligible to outsiders who have no connection to these other things.

isai enbadu EmATru vElai ( music is a con job ) said ilayaraja. We only move within the 7 notes! - he gave us the reason. Here the con job is claiming music is only the 7 notes!

[shankarank]

Majesty of toppi is not just the vibrant sound alone - also depends on how that is employed. Even in his tradition I believe a sol kaTTu from 2nd aksharam like this:

https://youtu.be/whTsCoTR6nQ?t=3138

ta-ku-gu-gum, , dhin ta-ku-gu-gum, , dhin-dhin-ta-ku-gu-gum to reach samam, will bring out the fact that the tAla (kanDa Ekam) is not just a cycle of 5 beats with two counts ( yeah bring a drummer to do special effects. For the latter everything is a beat) - it has niSabda and saSabda kriyas and a samam - subtling niShabda kriyas in the process. Also a good incremental yati - (yati viSrama!)

He sometimes attempts to bend and flow with lyrics!! That is just playing for melody not the sAhitya and its stresses to bring out beauty.

If sAhitya should be heard, one avArta can be done with strokes to set kalapramanam - a standard practice everywhere. But the singer even if Dikshitar does not prescribe sangatis , is expected to sing the same line with some stress differences again for couple of times. Mridangam now has opportunity to show different temporal flows.

Without knowing this can there be a carnatic musician cries me

About singing same line many times: My prior generation which donned suits and ties in their wedding reception and went off to movie theaters in the now already vitiated social environs ( I mean some of my uncles) used to ask me - why is this bhagavatar singing the same line many times - has he forgotten the next line? . Mind you these were sons and son-in-laws of a tiruvarUr grandma who taught Akshaya linga vibhO to her grand generation that includes me and she used to seek out RRI's kriti mani-mAlai with avid interest.

[shankarank]

The MA souvenier from 2015 says Vid. Amrita Murali sang this there. Would have been interesting to hear how the Mridangist listed in there handled it.

http://musicacademymadras.in/sites/defa ... r-2015.pdf

[shankarank]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxd5KvvmGYI

Ennaya nIngaLE ippaDi ceyyalAmAyyA!? eppErpaTTa pArambariyammayyA! tavil vasikkAma ragam puzhangukirirkalE! ayyO ! ayyO!

ivargulukkuttAn buddi pEtalittu viTTatenDral nIngaLum anda vazhikku cellalAmA?

[talalaya]

Talalaya: First, you wonder if we are rival mridangam artistes and then you wonder if we know how to play the mridangam!

No, not at all. I just wanted to understand if you guys are disciples belonging to any other school, to decry a vidwan of AP's stature. What i meant was if you happened to play Mrudangm and better, if you you guys have played a concert, you would understand the difficulties involved in it and would never engage in debunking an artiste like this.

No conspiracies here. It might be easier to engage if you could counter the arguments directly (or read the posts themselves). Most of us do this here, despite differences in our opinions.

I would definitely do that.

And welcome to the forum!

Thanks very much.