Sanjay Subramanyan- Music Academy - 27-12-17

[devan]

He is not slapping devan or harimau. He is slapping at the TRINITY.

[sureshvv]

You are watching too much TV news. You are sounding like them now.

[rajeshnat]

Parama pavana rama a krithi by poochi is very similar in texture in music and lyrics to a typical T krithi . Quite a lot of patnam and few of poochi krithis have an overlap of T krithi. He has sung a rare balahamsa and MD krithi. Many MD buffs would like it as such many times MD krithis are skipped . I welcome sanjay in what he did . Having said that ,Certainly there is also a marketing strategy in place for doing that . So as such selling is the key for any musician and Sanjay worked with a clear intent so that we all talk for few months on that which is a precursor for great selling . Remember this is going to be a good writeup for the hindu and different magazines that he created some thing unique . The next strategy is that in Few years from now he will take a chance to sing no trinity krithis and there is nothing wrong in that, as Patnam is a great substitute of T , Subbaraya Sastri is a great substitute of Shyama sastri and swati tirunal krithi in sanskrit can also be a great substitute for MD krithi. Kudos to him in him doing that.

[sureshvv]

When Sanjay became close with kanimozhi sudedenly he became interested in tamil

Sanjay's interest in Tamil goes way back. His Guru KSK & his Parama Guru Tiger V. taught music at Annamalai Univ. which was at the center of the Tamil Isai movement much before Kanimozhi was even conceived.

His Guru insisted that Sanjay should sing Tamil kritis in his performances each time.

Being a non believer we may see him with Veeramani of DK.

Untrue. Obviously you have not attended his concerts at Thyagaraja Vidwat Samajam, Rathnagireeswarar temple, Alarmelmangapuram Hanuman temple or Warren Road Pillayar temple.

We may also see him with Tm. Krishna to sing "pormpokku"the vintage song by the great composer.

No. He is too conservative (in the best sense of the word) for that.

sanjay Jalras will be there to cheer them. and will write here that is better than than trinity.

First part is true. Second part is wrong.

Sanjay "jalras" have an extremely refined musical taste. When it comes to embelishing & presenting trinity kritis in ways the trinity may have never imagined, Sanjay is among the very best.

[kvchellappa]

Those who have blinded their eyes like Gandhari have chosen to live in a world of delusion. To reason with them is vizhalukkiraittha neer. Let us enjoy good music. That a few cannot does not diminish our taste and we are not in need of any appreciation from the jaundice-visioned. Eminent musicians have had a word of praise for Sanjay. You can see Venkat Nagarajan's post how his guru is also a rasika of Sanjay. The few who are foulmouthed are nowhere near Nagai, TVG, Ramani, Varadu, Venkatesh, Jayanth, Srimushnam, Easwaran, and the list is long. They know music and are cultured.
The trinity did yeoman service for CM and have been immortalised. Their pieces will be sung. They have written in days when competition and marketing was not so prominent as now and wrote for the sake of music, not their brand. They would have been pleased if more pieces of merit were added as CM has grown around such pieces.
It is not as though Sanjay does not sing the pieces of trinity. He has sung many even in this season and some rare ones.
The Academy must be seen as another sabha. It is not even the oldest.
There is no requirement that any one composer must be covered. The sabha does not belong to the few foulmouthed and they cannot set its rules.
Sanjay is a shining torch bearer of CM and is something to celebrate. The number of young people attending his concerts is something to feel satisfied about. What he does he does by music. He does not announce a campaign and pursue it. He pursues music and those who pursue music value the music.

[sankark]

When it comes to embelishing & presenting trinity kritis in ways the trinity may have never imagined, Sanjay is among the very best.

embellishing - that is a bit rich, isn't it.

Anyways, can we get back to, er, music. And not discuss musicians & their wont and marketing and strategy et al

[sureshvv]

embellishing - that is a bit rich, isn't it.

What part of "embellishing" gets your goat? Are trinity's compositions beyond embellishment?
Do you think these compositions are sung/presented in concert now as they were sung by the trinity 250 years back? Won't a neraval qualify as an embellishment? Do you think Thyagaraja sang "sarasa sama dana" as Madurai Mani Iyer sang it? Do you think Thagaraja sang "nenarunchinanu" as GNB sang it? Were they not embellishing?

[arasi]

Words! How they can offend! I think it's not the kind of embellishment which is meant to offend--as we see ancient temple towers being robbed of their beauty with cans of paint
Embellishment in the sense of merugUTTudal--in the sense of adding a new shine, I think it is. Not trying to improve upon it but interpreting it slightly differently, after all the interpretations which have been done over a period of time. Personally, I like to listen to something like that when it's a winner, and it does delight me...

[ram1999]

When Sanjay became close with kanimozhi sudedenly he became interested in tamil. Being a non believer we may see him with Veeramani of DK. We may also see him with Tm. Krishna to sing "pormpokku"the vintage song by the great composer.sanjay Jalras will be there to cheer them. and will write here that is better than than trinity.

Utter rubbish ! Sanjay has taken some serious efforts in learning tamil kritis from his guru Sri KSK, but also has gone to the deep tanjavur to learn some of the beautiful and rarest kritis of tamil composers from less known nagaswara vidwans and just not limiting to Papanasam Sivan. And the efforts of his should be lauded !!

Coming back to not singing trinity compositions, many have given concerts which has not included compositions of the trinity. I have heard a plenty of Sri nedunuri singing just patnam's kritis and / or Subbaraya Sastry's kritis. And Sri Nedunuri openly acknowledges that Thyagaraja is SUPREME ! I still remember a concert of his in KGS way back in the 80s where he started with a varnam followed by janani ninnuvina and the rest of the concerts were just the subbaraya sastry's compositions. In the middle of the concert he went on to say that after singing janani ninnuvina he was in such an elated state that he chose to sing more of his kritis. It all perhaps depends on the mood of the artist.

However, in MA, i understand artists have to provide a list before hand and that gets published / circulated prior to the concert. Artists either strictly follow it or ahere to it 80% or so. I am not sure if this practice still continues ??

[Narayanan NB]

Sanjay is a great artist. Perhaps Sanjay and TMK would be rated as the best amoñgst that generation. It is good that he sings lot of Tamil krithis and his presentations are well researched. However over time I have experienced serious lack of aesthetics and lot of vocal acrobatics in his concerts.

[sureshvv]

However over time I have experienced serious lack of aesthetics and lot of vocal acrobatics in his concerts.

This vocal acrobatics thing, were it not sung in sruthi people would be running out of the auditorium tripping over each other. The only reason the high brow critics are able to raise their brow, twitch their nose & comment about "vocal acrobatics" is because it is in perfect sruthi.

Think about it.

And a TMK fan speaking about "lack of aesthetics" is, as sankark might say, "rich".

[sankark]

embellishing - that is a bit rich, isn't it.

What part of "embellishing" gets your goat?

To me, I repeat again to me, he seems to embellish everything. Embellishing works when it is in proportion.

embellishing - that is a bit rich, isn't it.

Are trinity's compositions beyond embellishment?
Do you think these compositions are sung/presented in concert now as they were sung by the trinity 250 years back? Won't a neraval qualify as an embellishment? Do you think Thyagaraja sang "sarasa sama dana" as Madurai Mani Iyer sang it? Do you think Thagaraja sang "nenarunchinanu" as GNB sang it? Were they not embellishing?

No. No. Yes. No. No. Yes.

Sorry couldn't resist even though your questions were rhetorical.

[sureshvv]

You get an A- for artificially setting limits on embellishment.

[keentolearn]

" Understood from a grapevine - Sanjay to be seen less in Bangalore.Those Sanjay fans should attend Sri Rama lalita Kala Mandira concert in Feb 2018 to be held at Bangalore Gayana samaja.There is one more in Feb at sharjapur road,but he is not singing for Rama Seva mandali,fort H S."

Is there a reason he's to be seen less in Bangalore? I would have thought musicians would be eager to sing in Bangalore - it has good audiences.
Where in Sarjapur road is the other February concert? Please share some details.
Thank you!

[kvchellappa]

It is in Bengaluru Gayana Samaja, Krishna Rajendra Road, Basavanagudi, Basavanagudi, Bengaluru, Karnataka 560004 on the 6th Feb at 6.00 PM.

[keentolearn]

that post says "one more concert in Feb", after naming the gayana samajam one - and it also says, on sarjapura road...
are there two ss concerts in bangalore, in february?

[kvchellappa]

I am also keen to learn!

[keentolearn]

@KVChellappa
Someone may enlighten us!

[hnbhagavan]

There are two concerts of SS in Feb at Bangalore.
One at BGS and the other in Sharjapur road.

[keentolearn]

Sharjapur road? Maybe IIM?

Here's a link to a nice feature on SS
http://bit.ly/2E6aZ3o

[kvchellappa]

IIM is in Banneughatta Road.

[jshrikanth]

The 2nd concert of SS in Feb at Bangalore is organized by Ranjani Fine Arts, Bellandur.
More details here: https://www.ranjanifinearts.org/

[kvchellappa]

Thanks. I thought so. It is in outer ring road after Sharjapur Road junction, not in Sharjapur Road.

[bhakthim dehi]

presenting trinity kritis in ways the trinity may have never imagined, Sanjay is among the very best.

Ideally this is not allowed. It is said Sri Thyagaraja didn't allow his disciples even to add sangathis. So, any embellishments done in his krithis are really against his wish.
Certainly, it's their creations and no one can excel more than them in any aspect. This holds good for the creations of any vaggeyakara.

Singing a krithi of these composers in MalavaSri or Gowri itself will suffice. No need to embellish.

[sureshvv]

presenting trinity kritis in ways the trinity may have never imagined, Sanjay is among the very best.

Ideally this is not allowed. It is said Sri Thyagaraja didn't allow his disciples even to add sangathis.

How about tickets at 5000 per head? Would Thyagaraja have imagined or allowed that? If you haven't noticed, we are not in Tiruvaiyyaru any more.

[bhakthim dehi]

Linking issues is of no use.
I never mentioned about commercialisation of music.
Read my comments properly.

[kvchellappa]

How does music find new expression and what is creativity? Why do they say that a sishya should not just ape his guru, but form his own style? Who decides on such issues, the musicians or the critics? Were SSI, GNB, etc. who added several sangatis to the trinity kritis fools and unaware of the music? What is wrong musically to add sangatis and manodharma to kritis? How do we know authentically how exactly the trinity themselves sang their compositions? Do we have some clairvoyance? How far can we understand correctly from books and notations? Was PS wrong when he agreed for some songs like maname kanamum his tune to be changed? Who adds value to music - the artist or the critic?

[sureshvv]

Linking issues is of no use.

No use to who? Let us not close our eyes and believe that the world is dark.

I never mentioned about commercialisation of music.
Read my comments properly.

You are ignoring it. See my comment above.

If Thyagaraja were alive today, would he have gotten the prime evening slot at the Music Academy?
Or a Sangeetha Kalanidhi?

[bhakthim dehi]

No use to who?

I always talk to the point. My answer was your response regarding embellishments. I am not interested in commercialization or any other issue.

Thyagaraja were alive today, would he have gotten the prime evening slot at the Music Academy?
Or a Sangeetha Kalanidhi?

You are imagining everyone in the same pedestal as that of you. Singing in the court of a King is much beneficial on all aspects than a SK title or getting an evening slot in MA once in a year.
Rejecting such a great opportunity is to be rewarded. I hope you can only imagine of having such a mindset.

Open your eyes. World is beyond MA.

I need not and not willing to elaborate on this. His compositions speak more than me.
So don't expect any more reply from me on this line.

[kvchellappa]

Thyagaraja was great, but CM has grown beyond him and he deserves credit for such blossoming. If that had not happened, his greatness would have been in the shelves. I read that the story of nidhi chala sukhama is apocryphal. But, without such stories, we can appreciate his passion for and contribution to CM.

[bhakthim dehi]

I place my evidences not on these stories. References that he gives iin his krithis.

And my replies are in response to the embellishments. Not interested in any other issues .

[bhakthim dehi]

How does music find new expression and what is creativity?


When our music is so flexible and allows musicians to create and innovate in the form of Manodharma sangeetham, why should we even touch the compositions of others. Others, here refers to any vaggeyakara, not only Trinity. Only these vaggeyakara knows the reason for tuning in that particular ragam or giving a few or multiple sangathis. Who are we to touch that?
If a musician feels like embellishing, he can do while performing neraval. Else he himself can compose in that ragam and add any number of sangathis. Else, he can tune poems like thiruvarutpa etc in that particular . See the number rof options he has!
Musicians also have the responsibility of these krithis in an unchanged form to his students.

Was PS wrong when he agreed for some songs like maname kanamum

You have an answer. 'PS agreed' - so it's his wish.
How we can we apply this to other vaggeyakara?
Certainly, their MalavaSri or Gowri or Huseni is impeccable and I dont think anyone of us can even go near them.

[bhakthim dehi]

How do we know authentically how exactly the trinity themselves sang their compositions?

Nature of the voice, it's timber, pitch etc differ from one person to another. Hence, it is not required to sing like others. But, we can always sing in a raga lakshanam that they have prescribed.

How far can we understand correctly from books and notations

Learning from notations is nothing wrong. Learning from a teacher is always best and to be followed. But, when a teacher is unaware of a krithi, we need to rely only on notations.
Also, our predecessors have encouraged their successors, learning from notations.
If we have respect towards our sangeetham, devotion towards the composer and our Guru, they will guide us to learn properly.

[Vocalist]

bhakthim dehi, please use the quote button if you can as it is sometimes not clear that your comments are replies to particular text from another post.

I place my evidences not on these stories. References that he gives iin his krithis.

It is said Sri Thyagaraja didn't allow his disciples even to add sangathis. So, any embellishments done in his krithis are really against his wish.

Said by whom/where/when? Was it because he didn't want his works altered at all, or was it because his disciples had not reached a stage where the sangathis they were adding were technically correct or appropriate in the context of the composition at the time?

Certainly, it's their creations and no one can excel more than them in any aspect. This holds good for the creations of any vaggeyakara.

That is your subjective opinion or the paramaters of your own vaggeyakara/guru bhakthi as an individual. There is nothing wrong with you holding that opinion or belief. But it is not a categorical fact that a composer cannot be excelled in any respect of a particular composition/creation.

Singing in the court of a King is much beneficial on all aspects than a SK title or getting an evening slot in MA once in a year.
Rejecting such a great opportunity is to be rewarded. I hope you can only imagine of having such a mindset.

Life at that time was very different to how it is now. If I understand you correctly, you are referring to a vaggeyakara having the mindset of rejecting an opportunity to sign in the court of a king, and actually rejecting the opportunity unlike many musicians in this day and age. What sureshvv has alluded to (if I understand him correctly) is that Thyagaraja would/may not have allowed his disciples to perform for such commercial ventures, and so the very performance of his krithis are against his wish - that being the case, how is it right to isolate one restriction from another? Moreover, would his opinion have changed with time (for example, DKJ lived long enough to see the benefit of recordings to change his opinion about the same - how can it be said that any other person's opinion would never ever change)? These are not my questions; these are just my interpretation of what was put to you - but it seems you have not really addressed those in the correct context.

[Vocalist]

When our music is so flexible and allows musicians to create and innovate in the form of Manodharma sangeetham, why should we even touch the compositions of others. Others, here refers to any vaggeyakara, not only Trinity. Only these vaggeyakara knows the reason for tuning in that particular ragam or giving a few or multiple sangathis. Who are we to touch that?
If a musician feels like embellishing, he can do while performing neraval. Else he himself can compose in that ragam and add any number of sangathis. Else, he can tune poems like thiruvarutpa etc in that particular . See the number rof options he has!
Musicians also have the responsibility of these krithis in an unchanged form to his students.

It's a great philosophy. That said, re-tuning music has simply become a fact of life whether it is slightly or significantly, let alone deliberately or inadvertently. Even the "esteemed" gurus change the notations (and the teaching of compositions) in respect of their disciples. It has happened so much that the krithis have changed from generation to generation from what was originally taught by the composer. In that context, it may very well be that the next generation of musician does not merely keep that same "changed" form they were taught, but in fact reverts the krithi to the correct form as intended by the original composer in accordance with the current times. Nobody will ever really know, particularly for those older/original compositions.

Regardless, I think it's not just a matter of staying in the box of what a composer intended melodically/rhythmically; it is also a matter of what else the composer wanted to express/achieve beyond that.

[sureshvv]

If we have respect towards our sangeetham, devotion towards the composer and our Guru, they will guide us to learn properly.

Well said! Looks like they have asked us to embellish.

[kvchellappa]

Somehow it occurs to me that the music has been enriched by the addition of sangathis. Much of what is sung today in O Rangasayee has been added by SSI, I heard. TMK mentioned how Musiri has added a fantastic sangathi to it. The numerous sangathis to vathapi gnapathim have been added much later. There is difference even between the patantharams of Thyagaraja’s disciples who must have been beholden to his genius. The differences have been cherished by the respective schools. To be fixated on what the composer has done (granting that it has come down without change) seems pedantic to me.
I do not feel that the additions mar the intention or the import of what the composer meant. On the contrary, they enhance.

[bhakthim dehi]

bhakthim dehi, please use the quote button if you can as it is sometimes not clear that your comments are replies to particular text from another post.

Usually I do this. for the last few days, I was only with my mobile. Though it showed an option to "quote', it didnt function. regret for the same.

Said by whom/where/when? Was it because he didn't want his works altered at all, or was it because his disciples had not reached a stage where the sangathis they were adding were technically correct or appropriate in the context of the composition at the time?

Sri. AM Chinnaswamy Mudaliyar in his book. It seems the composer wishes his composition to be unaltered.

That is your subjective opinion or the paramaters of your own vaggeyakara/guru bhakthi as an individual. There is nothing wrong with you holding that opinion or belief. But it is not a categorical fact that a composer cannot be excelled in any respect of a particular composition/creation.

It is an interesting argument to discuss. Though, it appears to be subjective, I feel after a point (of time in their life), everyone or at least a majority will be on my side.
In our music, a composition can be perceived in many ways: as a mere portal of enjoyment, way of enjoying a ragam, analysis and deeper contemplation of sahityam or all of these. When you indulge in the last activity, you get connected with the composer. It is an experience I would say and it is to be only experienced.
When that happens, you wont see sahitya as a string of syllables; rather a message from the composer given to us. When he says, 'nityananda ruposmi, brahmaananda ruposmi', though we haven't experienced nityanandam and brahmanandam, we can definitely realise the composer has experienced. What more else a composer need to express when he says 'Sriramasya dasoham , no cheth sri rama evaaham"? Its up to us to understand.
When that connection happens, thought of EMBELLISHING will not occur, as you know its their emotions and you cannot do anything more than them.
Same with the aspect of musical melody. I doubt how many musicians are even aware of the phrases used by these composers.
So, no musicians can equal them. Let this be a subjective opinion.

Moreover, would his opinion have changed with time (for example, DKJ lived long enough to see the benefit of recordings to change his opinion about the same - how can it be said that any other person's opinion would never ever change)? These are not my questions; these are just my interpretation of what was put to you - but it seems you have not really addressed those in the correct context.

The ability to judge others is based on our mental maturity. Careful examination of their compositions clearly reveals their mental maturity is ahead of ours. You can understand this point only, if you have read the grading given by Sri Sivan Sir in his book "Yenippadigalil Manthargal". If you haven't read, do it once. All these questions become redundant.

[bhakthim dehi]

Even the "esteemed" gurus change the notations (and the teaching of compositions) in respect of their disciples. It has happened so much that the krithis have changed from generation to generation from what was originally taught by the composer.

In my opinion, that is to condemned.

In that context, it may very well be that the next generation of musician does not merely keep that same "changed" form they were taught, but in fact reverts the krithi to the correct form as intended by the original composer in accordance with the current times. Nobody will ever really know, particularly for those older/original compositions.

It sounds very nice, but this cannot even happen theoretically.
Let us take an example. Sangathis in the krithi Nenarunchinanu is of late origin. Did any musician prevent from singing? Changes in the name of embellishing occur only in the forward direction. No one will refrain from singing sangathis, after it got established.
Once particular phrases are eschewed from a ragam, they are gone. Very very difficult to get them back.

[bhakthim dehi]

It has happened so much that the krithis have changed from generation to generation from what was originally taught by the composer.

Lack of this thought or connection by a few musicians, is responsible for this change.
Only way is to overcome this is to search for the older versions which reasonably give a good picture of the melodic structure as seen by the composer.

I do not feel that the additions mar the intention or the import of what the composer meant. On the contrary, they enhance.

I definitely feel. Especially the cascading sangathis add nothing to beautify a ragam is my opinion.

[sureshvv]

Lots of theoretical hand waving ignoring the most important fact which is that there is no notation available for reproducing accurately and to the last detail even one minute of real concert platform singing, leave alone the accompanists embellishment. All of the "education" up to that point is left along with one's slippers outside the stage.

And it never happens the same way again.

Even the "kaalapramanam" is not standard, which can totally change the presentation. Adding sangatis is not the only kind of embellishment. Singing at a faster kaalapramanam, repeating certain lines, starting from anupallavi, starting from the middle of a line, breaking compound words differently, mrdangam holding back, mrdangam playing at double speed - the variety is infinite.

Check out:

https://youtu.be/Tw-6V3EV1D4?t=2564

[bhakthim dehi]

Lots of theoretical hand waving ignoring the most important fact which is that there is no notation available for reproducing accurately

Notations not available? Whose compositions you refer to ?
On the other hand, I can also hear many saying, it is difficult to sing from Pradarshini, an authentic source for Deekshithar krithis.
What I wish to say is the mindset that is to be changed.

All of the "education" up to that point is left along with one's slippers outside the stage.

We can never generalise in issues like this. I know many who give us a pure music (music that they have learnt and no embellishing any more) in kalpita sangeetham and adhering to the grammar in kalpana sangeetham.
You only see what you wish to see.

Even the "kaalapramanam" is not standard, which can totally change the presentation. Adding sangatis is not the only kind of embellishment. Singing at a faster kaalapramanam, repeating certain lines, starting from anupallavi, starting from the middle of a line, breaking compound words differently, mrdangam holding back, mrdangam playing at double speed - the variety is infinite.

Yes. I gave only an example.
Starting from the middle of a line and breaking a word meaninglessly come under ignorance and a careless attitude of taking compoisers and rasikas as granted. Composers, even if they are alive, will not be worried and we, the rasikas, the majority didn't mind what they sing. We just see the brand.

mrdangam holding back, mrdangam playing at double speed

In what way mrudungam playing influences sahityam or a raga lakshanam ?

[sureshvv]

Notations not available? Whose compositions you refer to ?

Notations are available. They do not dictate every aspect of singing. They might indicates notes and general gamakas. But the scope for embellishment is much beyond what notation allows.

On the other hand, I can also hear many saying, it is difficult to sing from Pradarshini, an authentic source for Deekshithar krithis. What I wish to say is the mindset that is to be changed.

Please point us to a concert/recording where such authentic singing is done - only to the extent of what is prescribed in the Pradarshini.

I know many who give us a pure music (music that they have learnt and no embellishing any more) in kalpita sangeetham and adhering to the grammar in kalpana sangeetham.

Sounds like robotic music to me, Don't think many (other than the records dept./documentation people) will enjoy it. If you think kalpana sangeetham is primarily about adhering to grammar, think you are missing the forest for the trees.

Starting from the middle of a line and breaking a word meaninglessly

Please don't create strawmen so you can tear them down easily. I was speaking of breaking a compound word meaningfully. Thyagaraja himself starts from middle of line plenty of times.

In what way mrudungam playing influences sahityam or a raga lakshanam ?

Embellishment does not have to influence negatively sahityam or raga laksanam. It can greatly enhance both. Same goes for mrdangam also. Can you at lease concede this?

[bhakthim dehi]

Notations are available. They do not dictate every aspect of singing. They might indicates notes and general gamakas. But the scope for embellishment is much beyond what notation allows.

Are you not contradicting your own statement given in #66?

#66 Re: Sanjay Subramanyan- Music Academy - 27-12-17
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Post by sureshvv » 07 Jan 2018 13:09

Lots of theoretical hand waving ignoring the most important fact which is that there is no notation available for reproducing accurately

We are not discussing on the validity of notations or how they do or do not embellish. As I have mentioned, I dont like to deviate from the topic and I will not try to explain anything more in this line.
I mentioned about notations in the context of tracing back the older versions.
On the other hand, if you need any help regarding notations, I will do it from my side.

Please point us to a concert/recording where such authentic singing is done - only to the extent of what is prescribed in the Pradarshini.

I think TMK has done many lec dem, excrpts of which are available in various sites. also, he has released a CD. If you need the details, I shall provide you.
Another link to many krithis notated in Pradarshini is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGQxHrqFerg

Sounds like robotic music to me, Don't think many (other than the records dept./documentation people) will enjoy it. If you think kalpana sangeetham is primarily about adhering to grammar, think you are missing the forest for the trees.

Its your personal and subjective opinion. Opinions do vary between the individuals.

I was speaking of breaking a compound word meaningfully. Thyagaraja himself starts from middle of line plenty of times.

I cant get you. Can you please explain me?

Embellishment does not have to influence negatively sahityam or raga laksanam. It can greatly enhance both. Same goes for mrdangam also. Can you at lease concede this?

I think this is out of context. We are discussing only about the embellishments in the sahityam and raga lakshanam.

[sureshvv]

Are you not contradicting your own statement given in #66?

No sir. You chopped away the important relative clause that I ended my sentence with. Here it is in full.

there is no notation available for reproducing accurately and to the last detail even one minute of real concert platform singing, leave alone the accompanists embellishment.

I mentioned about notations in the context of tracing back the older versions.

And my contention is that the notation captures only 50% of whatever that older version was. I remember Chitraveena Ravikiran ji has written about this in detail.

I cant get you. Can you please explain me?

OK. Let us suppose someone starts the Nattai pancharatnam song with "Ananda kaaraka". This is a valid and worthwhile embellishment. This is what I meant by splitting a compound word meaningfully.

Or let us suppose someone starts the Hameer kalyani kriti with Abhimanamu leda. Another kachink

We are discussing only about the embellishments in the sahityam and raga lakshanam.

It looks like you are equating my "embellishment" with "distortion". I don't intend it like that.

[bhakthim dehi]

No sir. You chopped away the important relative clause that I ended my sentence with. Here it is in full.

No..No...My way of replying is misunderstood. Its my usual practise to quote only the part which I need to address. I think that makes my point highlighted and the entire reply can be viewed by others, if required.

And my contention is that the notation captures only 50% of whatever that older version was. I remember Chitraveena Ravikiran ji has written about this in detail.

Much has been discussed in that thread. Contrary to the normal misconception, its a good tool to learn from notations, especially in the absence of oral tradition, if the seeker knows its inherent advantages and disadvantages.

OK. Let us suppose someone starts the Nattai pancharatnam song with "Ananda kaaraka". This is a valid and worthwhile embellishment. This is what I meant by splitting a compound word meaningfully.

Though, ananda karaka looks like a good splitting, meaning is not complete. And by splitting at this point (anandakaraka in jagadananda karaka) violates the rule of prasa. I say it again, if we get connected with the composer (any great composer for that matter) and his saghityam, we never attempt these things. Again, it takes time and till that time it appears only like a subjective opinion.

[sureshvv]

Though, ananda karaka looks like a good splitting, meaning is not complete. And by splitting at this point (anandakaraka in jagadananda karaka) violates the rule of prasa. I say it again, if we get connected with the composer (any great composer for that matter) and his saghityam, we never attempt these things. Again, it takes time and till that time it appears only like a subjective opinion.

IMHO, If you are thinking about the "rule of prasa" when you hear "ananda karaka", you have already disconnected with the composer. Your response should be visceral, not cerebral,

[bhakthim dehi]

IMHO, If you are thinking about the "rule of prasa" when you hear "ananda karaka", you have already disconnected with the composer. Your response should be visceral, not cerebral,

IMHO you have a very shallow understanding of our music. Good prasa lakshanam is a must and is undercurrent in any composition by an Uttama Vaggeyakara. Even in Thyagaraja's compositions, many of which are emotional outpourings, prasa is kept intact.
If you have enjoyed the intellectual usage of letters, excellent wordplay, to cite a few in their compositions, you would have not come out with an example like anandakaraka.
If I can extend this cerebral and visceral analogy, I can definitely say bhakthi and gnanam are both sides of a coin.

[sureshvv]

The "law of prasa" comes into play only when the full lines are sung consecutively. It is incorrect to say that the law of prasa forbids one from repeating a partial line or phrase for effect. I hope you are not saying that.

And really calling it a "law" is a bit extreme. Rather, it is a lyrical embellishment to be relished.

[bhakthim dehi]

The "law of prasa" comes into play only when the full lines are sung consecutively.

Yes.

It is incorrect to say that the law of prasa forbids one from repeating a partial line or phrase for effect.

Yes. A line can be repeated several times, separating the words according to the rules of sandhi and emphasizing it. But they are usually done while singing neraval, which is a part of kalpana sangeetham. I am not against this and my posts reflect the same.
But this discussion started from the post #66, where starting from middle of a line was mentioned by you as an embellishment.
My response, was only to this embellishment.