T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

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Sachi_R
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#1 T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by Sachi_R »

Around 250 of us gathered in a sylvan open air theatre y'day (29th morning) in Suchitra Society BSK II Stage to hear T M Krishna discourse on gender and caste discrimination in Carnatic music.
I took no photos or recordings. Here is a gist of what TMK said:
1. Gender and caste bias - read Brahminical male domination - of Carnatic music is all too evident.
2. In 3rd c BC there were female bard-mystics of Sangam era who floated in upper social echelons and sang "Agam" and "Puram" songs of mystic import that delved into the nebulous worlds of human emotions, foibles, and crises, in respectively "personal and interpersonal", and "public and civic" spaces. This made a deep impact on social values and behaviours. Note the word female.
3. Devadasis (he held up Nityasumangali a book by a westerner) were the progenitors of all that is cherished in our musical and dance tradition.
4. Intricate frescoes in Tiruvarur depict musical ensembles of peria melam and chinna melam. None were Brahmins but lower caste traditional performers.
5. Ramaswamy Dikshitar has been given too much credit for setting down the nagaswaram traditions in Tiruvarur temple; whereas the pipers themselves would have plausibly organised their musical schedules and practices maybe with some prompting by Ramaswamy Dikshitar.
6. Each concert item in the Ariyakudi method can be structurally traced back to items developed tor Devadasi performances. Eg Padavarnam led to Tana varnam. Tillanas of course were sung for their dances. The grand songs like Akshaya Linga Vibho and O Rangashayi that lend themselves to musical elaboration can be traced to influences of Kshetrayya padams (erotic songs) which are structurally so grand. They are unlike Annamayya and Purandaradasa and Muttu Tandavar "padas" which are essentially for bhajana type of singing.
7. Brahmins were composers and custodians of Lakshana or grammar and Devdasi/Isaivellalars were custodians of Lakshya or creative presentation of Carnatic music.
8. Isai Vellalars! What a true name to show how these musical people cultivated and enriched our musical tradition.
9. Thyagaraja is the antinodal point in Carnatic music history for setting down the Brahminical Bhakti tradition vs. erstwhile Devadasi Sringara/erotic lyrical tradition. His compositions were developed on the lines of Maratha Naradiya, Dasa, Harikatha, Bhajana, traditions.
10. The statement "Carnatic music is all about Bhakti" is wrong and applies only to the way our music has been "brahminised" and "bhaktified" in the past 250 years.
11. Krishna admitted that he had felt proud that he had shaken the listeners with his departures from the set Ariyakudi concert structure and he is an originator. But he then read Bhatkhande describe an incident where he climbed up stairs and went to listen to a public concert in George Town by Bangalore Nagaratnamma who was that day singing only ragas in the concert upon audience request! So she was the true originator, that too more than a hundred years ago!? Also TMK said BN was a grand lady of arts and music being a singer dancer composer and a true bhakta who located Thyagaraja Samadhi and built the place where the Aradhana is held now. What a lady! She deserves a lot more mention. Note: Devadasi!
12. D K Pattammal showed how a Brahmin woman could conquer the male bastion of CM by equalling them in all-round musical excellence and giving a rich fare of Dikshitar kritis nobody had heard before which in a way resonated with the male preserve of Sanskritic and scriptural incantations like in a Homa.
13. Every famous Brahmin male musician went and learnt from Dhanammal and Brinda and brought that music to the concert stage but after the abolition of Devadasi system, the Devadasis who were torchbearers of musical excellence and inheritors of Dikshitar and Shyama Shastry kritis, were increasingly erased from public memory. In fact DKP was a convenient Brahminical alternative readily accepted by Brahminical men as a performer in preference to the tainted Devadasis.
14. To say DKP was the first woman to sing RTP is a lie. Read Mudikondan in 1968 MA Journal. He lists Coimbatore Thayi and many other women who had done remarkably well in RTP singing long back.
15. The story of MSS nails this Brahmin male domination narrative. She brahminised herself and built her persona with her Bhakti=Meera image and revelled in it. In a way it was her giving in to Brahminical male domination because she was handicapped as a Devadasi. Not so the Brahmin lady Pattammal who matched the men in her music and won that battle on her own terms.
16. TMK sang and showed how Brinda was Brinda. Not only the authentic purveyor of the truly rich Devadasi=Dhanammal heritage of musical excellence and their rich repertoire but a bold, unique, and arrogant, innovator who created an edifice of incredibly detailed and impossible-to-imitate "filigreed" music unmatched by anyone else including Balasaraswati etc.

For me the biggest takeaway was the tribute he paid to Brinda.

A good way to spend a Sunday morning. Krishna was at his articulate best. 99% talking, 1% singing.

Please excuse any inadvertent mistakes in this report, after all it is a complex topic and it was a long discourse of 2 hours.

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#2 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by SrinathK »

Should this not be in reviews?

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#3 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by sureshvv »

I agree with the facts in much of what he says. I just disagree with the angles he gives to the facts to promote a particular world view.

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#4 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by sureshvv »

Here is my attempt to clean up the froth and extract some facts:

1. Carnatic music had the same level of Gender and caste bias as in the society at large.

2. As early as 3rd c BC there was at least one female bard whose work was appreciated and respected by society at large including the educated and social elite.

3. Devadasis (he held up Nityasumangali a book by a westerner) were the up holders of all that is cherished in our musical and dance tradition.

4. Intricate frescoes in Tiruvarur depict musical ensembles of peria melam and chinna melam show that music was not limited to the "upper" castes.

5. Credit given to Ramaswamy Dikshitar should be shared with many nameless pipers.

6. The Ariyakudi format borrowed and built over the Devadasi performances.

7 & 8 are too vile to be cleaned up

9. Thyagaraja is the antinodal point in Carnatic music history for setting down the Bhakti tradition vs. erstwhile Devadasi Sringara/erotic lyrical tradition. His compositions were developed on the lines of Maratha Naradiya, Dasa, Harikatha, Bhajana, traditions.

10. The statement "Carnatic music is all about Bhakti" has been correct for about 250 years.

11. Bangalore Nagaratnamma sang ragas upon audience request more than a hundred years ago!
She deserves to be known more!

12. D K Pattammal showed how a woman could conquer the male bastion of CM by equalling them in all-round musical excellence

13. Abolition of Devadasi system may have erased their contribution from public memory

14. There were other women before DKP who sang the RTP.

15. Too vile for clean up.

16. Brinda was a great musician.

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#5 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by SrinathK »

I don't like it that he keeps politicizing MS Amma's image. She chose that life herself and her bhakti was genuine and more than just an image for publicity. She must have initially faced a lot of ill comments for the opposite reason in those days. Yes it did give her new opportunities to learn and perform put her on the global stage, but was that due to just the caste thing alone or the relentless efforts of T Sadasivam? Besides wasn't she the first to get the music out of the ghetto? Will he just not let that one rest?

Ironically the abolishing of the devadasi tradition was by a woman herself. It had become an instrument of exploitation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muthulakshmi_Reddy

Bhakti as a tradition was inseperable from rasAnubhavam for a long time - the sampradaya of Chaitanya or the kritis of Annamacharya are cases in point. The other side of bhakti is related to the worship of consecrated deities, which is actually closer to the yogic and tantric tradition. Both these forms have been around for millennia.

My generation of musicians as far as I have seen are far less biased to gender than the generations before them. The kind of life 200 years ago vs. the standard of living we have now have allowed a lot of changes to happen and that effect hasn't been considered. Most of the reforms for example would be impossible without technology and infrastructure growth to make life easier.

Still I am aware that some people pass a lot of backhanded comments against women musicians and some accompanists still refuse to play for them. A lot of those comments actually come from other women too.

The Trinity weren't any social reformers. But their shishya paramparas were huge and became the biggest source of CM after their times. This had the inadvertent effect of making CM look like it revolved around them. This along with the decline and eventual loss of Royal patronage changed many things.

I definitely agree though that the puritanical attitude is hypocritical and it did not line up with the actual behavior. I might get flak for this, but a lot of brahmins kept extra relationships with devadasi women, some of whom were even musicians and fathers of some prominent musicians. All this before polygamy was removed by the Constitution.

Only the brahmins who actually knew the lakshnana preserved it and in particular the treatise writers, the post trinity ones being Subbarama Dikshitar or Venkataramana Bhagavatar. All others.... ok fine, modern CM would not exist, but still.... :lol:

I am surprised he didn't mention MLV at all. Speaking of which, isn't this a curious clip? https://youtu.be/jHJevdAKMvs

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#6 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by RasikasModerator2 »

What is this thread doing here? Over to reviews you go.

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#7 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by advaitin »

the book Nityasumangali is by Dr Saskia Kersenboom, a delightful read

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#8 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by RSR »

I have to say this again. Carnatic music began with Purandaradasa and his co-saint-poet Kanakadasa ,and like all the DASA saint poets, they were DEFINITELY against casteism, ritualism and tantric practices. To the best of our knowledge, it was Govinda Dikshita from Vijayanagar empire that brought CM from Karnataka into Tanjore delta and
(there is a fine pen-portrait about Govinda Dikshita, in the 1995 Music academy journal- )patronized them. There is a gap of about 200 years between Purandara dasa and Narayana Theertha. followed by OVK , Sadasiva Brammendram. and then the trinity and Gopala krushna Barathy. All of them were devotional poets.
Neither Purandaradasa nor Kanakadasa were brahmins. Nor were the Tamil moovar.
Devotional music and spiritualism are still one way , and perhaps the only way, to eradicate casteism ,untouchabilty and even religious intolerance. The Sabarimalai tradition ( of which even MD seems to have sung about), The Sikh musical tradition, the Sufi poets of North India, ( the great and many splendoured garanas of muslim artistes),
Chembai Vaidyanatha Bagavathar and Jesudas are are all testimony.
( a tremendously moving video of Jesudas performing 'first feeding' of his grandchild , in Aranmula temple , moves every one!)
https://youtu.be/1OtqZJE9EqE
I have seen a great video about a famous muslim vocalist being affectionately received by the revered Jeeyar of Udupi mutt. ( Sadly he passed away this week).
-------------------------
"NOTHING WRONG WITH NAMAZ IN TEMPLE PREMISES: PEJAWAR SEER --- β€˜WE HAD INVITED THEM FOR IFTAR, THEY WANTED TO OFFER NAMAZ FIRST BEFORE BREAKING FAST’---- I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANY PROTESTS: PEJAWAR MUTT’S HEAD, SRI VISHWESHATEERTHA SWAMIJI--- I JUST FOLLOWED THE PATH OF MADHVACHARYA: SRI VISHWESHATEERTHA SWAMIJI
Carnatic music can and should do away with its obsession with Dance music
Gandhiji, used to give a lot of importance to prayer meetings and insisted that all the attendees sing all the prayer songs of all the religions. It is pertinent that @SrinathK is unable to cite any composer ( pre-trinity and trinity), except Annamaiya ( who incidentally composed great many non-erotic kritis carefully chosen by Smt.MS) and Kshtragya. in defending dance-music composers. After all, music cannot be erotic...it is the accompanying lyrics and visual impact.
--------------
Either this thread may be deleted or at least moved to the lounge.
I have reported this thread.
More- All the other posts recently, in this section devoted to Concert Reviews, deal with actual concerts and not any lec-dem .
Perhaps , this particular thread can be moved to MUSUCIANS section -T.M.Krishna
Last edited by RSR on 31 Dec 2019, 21:35, edited 2 times in total.

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#9 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by Sachi_R »

I take no offence at all with any comments- the words vile or revile πŸ˜€ So even if the thread is moved or pulled down, I don't care. But perhaps there is space here for reporting such talks especially by someone as big as TMK in CM.

I also firmly believe that the very concept of Devadasi implies that there was much devotional content in their art form. That is in fact true of all Indian art traditions unlike in Islam where music and dance were considered irreligious.

This "Brahminical therefore bad" theory has no resonance at all with me. That he brought down the MSS-DKP narrative to Devadasi vs. Brahmin dynamic also didn't strike a chord.

Why did I write my post? I felt like reporting on a well-attended event held in a Film Appreciation Society campus and TMK was speaking in fact a second time there just after last week's event dedicated to U R Ananthamurthy (google to see what se stood for πŸ˜€)

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#10 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by RasikasModerator2 »

While TMK has his views, we got a report raised so given what happened before, we're just keeping an eye here as we don't want a mess to clean up and seal on New Year's eve and plan to enjoy a holiday tomorrow. Anyway it already looks like it is going off topic.

I believe @sureshvv was referring to TMK's words and not your words@Rsachi.

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#11 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by sureshvv »

Think RSachi was just responding to the fact that this thread was "rreported".

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#12 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by shankarank »

We could as well blame urbanization for all the ills. If I were to claim that "Caste" system actually created Carnatic music, that could still be a valid statement. It is just that we think urbanization is progress and even tamizh nationalists are out there claiming their identity based on how their epics portray urban life! There are enough ills accrued from urbanization and Sri T. M Krishna himself is out there highlighting it!.

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#13 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by Sachi_R »

Guys,
I don't want to respond any further. You can kill this thread if you want to.

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#14 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by shankarank »

Was listening to a conversation between Sri NSG and Sri Kalayanapuram Aravamudachariar @ Arkay. He mentions one Sri Krishna Bhagavathar as the first initiator of harikatha which in principle used Sound as abhinaya to convey the bhAvA, following the kirtankArs of Maharashtra as an input. That essentially is the lakshya contributor of kaRNATaka music as we know it now.

The sabha system and kutcheri format essentially sought to imbibe that as the lakshya, even with all the attendant sangathis. If ever they moved away and we started talking of it as an art, we are looking at a Museum situation! The latter is truly a form of intellect only enlightenment and a modern urban phenomenon!

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#15 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by sankark »

#14: assuming MS did it, if it was on her own volition, what's TMK's issue (or) anyone else's? If she saw the writing on the wall that this 1-2 small communities only still cherished and willing to invest time & money on this art form, she made a right choice to lever her skills into stardom catering to that audience.

TMK is just staying on the message: repeat the same thing again and again, nuances be damned, and over time a section of population will just buy into it as gospel.

What made isai vELAlars forsake their marabu/tradition and not be guardians of that and hand over from gen to gen next?

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#16 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by RSR »

What made isai vELAlars forsake their marabu/tradition and not be guardians of that and hand over from gen to gen next?
Even in 1940 decade, there were many popular CM concert sabhas. besides MA and Nagaswaram performers were thriving. though may not be in concert halls.
Why were the vocalists not popular? ( there were glorious exceptions like MMDandapani Desikar..Tamizh isai). Coimbatore Tayee gave numerous gramaphone records. Why did they vanish? No brahmin conspiracy, Possibly because, the oral tradition-style did not appeal to the great majority of cm lovers of the decades 1935-1955.
Does it do now? Doubtful. .despite all the 'Goebbels' style mud-slinging on respectable ladies,

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#17 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by RSR »

@SrintathK
The Trinity weren't any social reformers.
You are requested to read all the articles in MA journal of 1947 .
especially the one which compares the work of Thyagaraja Swami and MD.
Mystics are a class by themselves. Their very life is their message.
Ramakrishna Paramahamsa did not go about teaching the message of equality. He explicitly forbade people from going after people who perform 'miracles'. Many parallels in St.Mathew.

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#18 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by shankarank »

Lec Dem by Sriram Parasuram on RAga Khambodhi

https://youtu.be/NsKLXvcxFoI?t=1126 - he starts with khambOji being male biased, but then proceeds to make a statement about the entire Carnatic music , aesthetically favoring the male voice. "We just have to live with it".

In that regard, recently in a corporate discussion on gender/ work culture etc., a gentlemen walking out of it was heard in an elevator telling another female employee (this is in America folks!), how Women are not appreciated in the culture if they show the same expression/aggression in a speech as a man would!

So if a Women artiste aggressively pursues the azzhuttam of a khamboji , may be we might have a problem?? Even now??

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#19 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: ↑
01 Jan 2020, 11:10

<snip>
Why were the vocalists not popular? <snip>
Possibly because, the oral tradition-style did not appeal to the great majority of cm lovers of the decades 1935-1955.
Wrong diagnosis. Probably because they (vocalists) needed but did not have sound amplification commonly.
Does it do now? Doubtful.
Wrong again. See where the audience is.

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#20 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by HarishankarK »

Loved what TMK said about DKP
She remains/was the true stalwart and her music was always chaste carnatic music. She did not get her due though.
For me among female vocalists it will always be DKP, T Brinda, MLV, R Vedavalli

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#21 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by RSR »

@19
@sureshvv
Kindly note that I am referring to the audience in 1935-1955 decades. and the vocalists of isai-vaeLaLar tradition.
I do not think, isaiveLaLar vocalists attract much crowd even today.
in concert halls. ( their paadaantharam lacks 'jana ranjakathvam') One solution might be to switch over entirely to pre-nayak tamil music tradition and make Nagaswaram concerts major part of concerts. Tamil Isai Sangam can take up that mission.

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#22 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: ↑
01 Jan 2020, 16:39
Kindly note that I am referring to the audience in 1935-1955 decades. and the vocalists of isai-vaeLaLar tradition.
1. Can you give me some examples of the vocalists of the Isai-vaelalar (IV) tradition?

2. Were vocalists from the non IV tradition popular during the same time?
I do not think, isaiveLaLar vocalists attract much crowd even today.
in concert halls. ( their paadaantharam lacks 'jana ranjakathvam')
Who are the IV vocalists of today?
One solution might be to switch over entirely to pre-nayak tamil music tradition and make Nagaswaram concerts major part of concerts. Tamil Isai Sangam can take up that mission.
What problem exactly are we trying to solve?

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#23 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by shankarank »

HarishankarK wrote: ↑
01 Jan 2020, 16:37
Loved what TMK said about DKP
She remains/was the true stalwart and her music was always chaste carnatic music. She did not get her due though.
For me among female vocalists it will always be DKP, T Brinda, MLV, R Vedavalli
How did you come to this conclusion? She is a recipient of many awards including sangIta kalAnidhi!! So the peer recognition is complete! And in fact she is more recognized for "vidvat" than contemporaries. And she is widely known even outside. If she was known in my household who were not any sabha concert goers , then she is indeed widely known!

What else does she need? President Abdul Kalam did not stop by her house? - what was she living in Kotturpuram as well? There was a vikatan or some mag buzz about it - but then if a mag thought it fit to gossip, then she is widely known isn't she?

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#24 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by RSR »

@22
@sureshvv
You know better. I am not aware of any gent/lady-vocalist from that community in Chennai concert circuits. though quite a few famous vocalists of other communities claim to follow BM legacy.
Everybody is said to have learned from DhanammaL school but even BM concerts were rarely a crowd-puller. in those days. May be because, they did not know how to blend orthodoxy and popular appeal. ..The reason why Purandaradasa sang in Kannada.
A conscious effort has to be made by all NB community youngsters to learn to be successful vocalists. ( if they think, that the effort is worthwhile. .Perhaps, they are right ...CM un-related to film may not be a good career. Nothing lost by not being a performer but they can surely become good rasikas without political overtones. ).
How, CM ( except Nagaswaram) became almost the monopoly of brahmin community and occasionally Pillai community, puzzles me. It may have something to do with the language( Sanskrit, Telugu, Kannada and Marathi) and a theistic mindset. and also that in those centuries, orthodox gurus may not have been willing to take them as full-time sishyas.
But that is all in the years prior to 1600.
There is no point in bemoaning except the reluctance to learn.
Perhaps it is not all that easy to pick up, except from very young age and conducive environment.
But, not in the 21st century of Internet age. Literally thousands of websites and skype lessons. And every schoolboy has a smartphone,
--------------------
Still, how easy is it to learn Western Classical music? How many are learning that even in Metropolitan centers? How about HM too?
Just raising queries. Not having ready-made answers.
--------------
A request to the mods.
There is a thread for TMK in musicians section and just now went through the pages. The last post was sometime in Dec 2018.
Why not merge this with the existing thread there?

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#25 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by RSR »


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#26 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by SrinathK »

You should read what Parivadini has to say about why people even take up the nagaswaram these days. It is actually due to poverty and an inability to take up anything else. More on that can be found elsewhere.

The devadasi system had turned into sheer exploitation and with the loss of Royal patronage followed by the wealthy landlords, the banning of the whole devadasi tradition and finally the shift of the CM center to Madras, the competition from film music and the need to move to other professions to survive, the whole thing was complete.

Although I think we've drifted away from the original topic, which was actually gender in CM.

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#27 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by shankarank »

sankark wrote: ↑
01 Jan 2020, 09:15
If she saw the writing on the wall that this 1-2 small communities only still cherished and willing to invest time & money on this art form, she made a right choice to lever her skills into stardom catering to that audience.
MSS did not perform just in the 10 or 12 sabhas only in the December season. That is not even true of any musician of that time. They performed widely across the southern states, and northern cities. That is true of many musicians even now! As regards MSS one can easily see how widely and to what diverse audience she sang to across the country and other nations. It is anything but intellectual dishonesty ( according to their own rules!) to suggest that she catered to this or that community. They did not take census in each of the other venues.

Figuratively though, I can observe may be, that she sang to chiefly the Women of Indian culture! Men may have varied opinions! Women artistes and their rasikas have done their bit - and if you want to know what is true SRngara, that we can know now, it is what they did to music in the post anti-nautch bill era!

The word "erotic" is a colonial import and an affront to the Indian culture. It is used by the likes of Pupul Jayakar to describe Lord Shiva! We should not entertain it.
Last edited by shankarank on 02 Jan 2020, 12:09, edited 1 time in total.

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#28 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by sureshvv »

sankark wrote: ↑
01 Jan 2020, 09:15
If she saw the writing on the wall that this 1-2 small communities only still cherished and willing to invest time & money on this art form, she made a right choice to lever her skills into stardom catering to that audience.
Let us not fall into the same trap that TMK has to conclude that somehow marriage was MS's career move. Would be as ridiculous as if the same thing was said of TMK :D

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#29 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote: ↑
02 Jan 2020, 11:00
The word "erotic" is a colonial import and an affront to the Indian culture. It is used by the likes of Pupul Jayakar to describe Lord Shiva! We should not entertain it.
Whoaa ! I just πŸ˜‚, I just πŸ˜…πŸ˜‚, just , 🀣.. just πŸ˜‚... πŸ˜‚πŸ€£, said that from an article I remember reading from Thuglak , by I think Cho himself !!

Now see where that leads to : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pupul_Jayakar - all the way back to Rishi Valley πŸ˜‚... πŸ˜‚πŸ€£ @ Madanapalle!!

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#30 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by sankark »

sureshvv wrote: ↑
02 Jan 2020, 11:06
sankark wrote: ↑
01 Jan 2020, 09:15
If she saw the writing on the wall that this 1-2 small communities only still cherished and willing to invest time & money on this art form, she made a right choice to lever her skills into stardom catering to that audience.
Let us not fall into the same trap that TMK has to conclude that somehow marriage was MS's career move. Would be as ridiculous as if the same thing was said of TMK :D
You missed the opening of that post/para: "assuming MS did it"

Digression: Let's also keep MS the CMusician (A) and MS the shlokam/bhakti/cine-songs/tail-enders songster (B) as two distinct spheres. Lot of populace is attracted to shlokams/ashtakams/suprabhatams/viruttams/tukkadas etc. and that populace is spread across castes and creeds. I aver that size of (B) is way bigger than (A) and the (B) group doesn't much care for the technicalities of classic music or as a art form.

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#31 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by sureshvv »

sankark wrote: ↑
02 Jan 2020, 12:17
You missed the opening of that post/para: "assuming MS did it"
Hmmm... I was just saying "MS did not do it.". No evidence for such a conspiracy theory.
Digression: Let's also keep MS the CMusician (A) and MS the shlokam/bhakti/cine-songs/tail-enders songster (B) as two distinct spheres. Lot of populace is attracted to shlokams/ashtakams/suprabhatams/viruttams/tukkadas etc. and that populace is spread across castes and creeds. I aver that size of (B) is way bigger than (A) and the (B) group doesn't much care for the technicalities of classic music or as a art form.
Then there is also (C) MS as a human being where she has vastly surpassed anything she may have achieved in (A) or (B).

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#32 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: ↑
01 Jan 2020, 23:18
Although I think we've drifted away from the original topic, which was actually gender in CM.
So this covers it: https://sriramv.wordpress.com/2019/12/3 ... musicians/

They might have defined the format of the musical presentation. But they don't and cannot set the rules by which we judge musicians!

Now this:

https://sriramv.wordpress.com/2014/09/1 ... he-spirit/

It was none other than Smt. Ranjani and Gayathri sisters, who mentioned to us once, that it was Sunda mami who encouraged and blessed and approved their Abhang singing.

Sunda mami , they described, can tell when you are off Sruti even a bit!

Such people also kept the music alive...

That is "the Woman" for you who are keepers of the core of music! Who know what is good and right!
Sunda’s mother Lakshmi was the daughter of the legal luminary T.R. Venkatarama Sastry. It was always with some pride that she would relate how her wedding procession lasted almost a whole night, going around the Mylapore tank with the best of the Nagaswaram greats – Rajarathnam Pillai, Veerusami Pillai, the Sembanar Brothers and the Tiruvizhimizhalai Brothers performing for it in relays.
What a blessing and providence!

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#33 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: ↑
01 Jan 2020, 23:03
@22
@sureshvv
You know better.
I don't know Sir. That is why I was asking. Are you suggesting that "not knowing" is better? :D

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#34 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by RSR »

@sureshvv
Then there is also (C) MS as a human being where she has vastly surpassed anything she may have achieved in (A) or (B).
Very true. Thank you.
==========================
@33
I have made it abundantly clear ever since I joined this foruim almost for the sole purpose of getting ragam information for all the songs of Smt.MS in her film Meera -1947 -Hindi. ( sadly, not much help from ragam experts in this forum so far).that I have never been a concert-goer. My only exposure to CM and HM has been through radio concerts and records. I do not read cheap periodicals. and gossip. Not even much of musicology and lyrics. I think, it has enabled me to focus on just ragam.
I do not know much about Layam at all . In a way, I am thankful that the sound of layam , is free from so-called sungaram.
You are I believe, a contemporary music organizer and critic.
So, you know better about the social/ economic factors of concert artistes and concert audience.
I take this opportunity to request all rasikas, to revert back to radio concerts and audio cassettes. and static video sharing as in
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... adiko-enna
without visual element. If pure instrumental music, (orchestration included), without lyrics, that would bring back the essence of the art-be it CM or HM or even Light classical.
There are many 'vaadhya sanggeth' sound tracks at
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... hindi-1947
You may like them.
--------
@33
Not knowing is better.
Yes. True appreciation of music, will come to the fore, if free from titbits about the caste/social background, and gossip / insider innuendos items. about artistes. and all the visual telecasts. and tube uploads.

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#35 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by shankarank »

Sachi_R wrote: ↑
30 Dec 2019, 05:58
12. D K Pattammal showed how a Brahmin woman could conquer the male bastion of CM by equalling them in all-round musical excellence and giving a rich fare of Dikshitar kritis nobody had heard before which in a way resonated with the male preserve of Sanskritic and scriptural incantations like in a Homa.
That is true. Till now no other male or female , whatever be the community they are from , cannot come near the SubramhaNyAya namaste that she rendered with Sri DKJ singing behind, SrI Karaikudi Mani on Mridangam and Sri tirupArkadal Veeraraghavan on violin ( only what I remember from the cassette details! - pardon if I was wrong) - I think in Music Academy.

The perfect gait and mAtra Suddha , she bettered the predecessors that have handled this kriti. But are'nt these musical qualities. If they came from vEdic stream, just like karaharapriya notes came from sAma vEda, why is there an effort to invalidate them? Incantations like homa - yes people were kept away! But Sanskritic ?? That is spread across all languages.

Chaste tamizh and tamizh works when they were published for the first time , had many opposing it! No literary dialect was socialized to all ever.

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#36 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by shankarank »

sankark wrote: ↑
02 Jan 2020, 12:17
Digression: Let's also keep MS the CMusician (A) and MS the shlokam/bhakti/cine-songs/tail-enders songster (B) as two distinct spheres. Lot of populace is attracted to shlokams/ashtakams/suprabhatams/viruttams/tukkadas etc. and that populace is spread across castes and creeds.
First off to divide rasikas into classes is akin to the sub-altern project peddled during colonial era - I don't want to mention who all did that.

Secondly will kalpita sangIta , a perfect rendition like the above done by Smt. DKP , of what is considered a Carnatic music item fall into this bucket also? kalpita-kalpana divide is useful for some clarity in instruction. But it has been blown up too much. Also how did viruttam end up in this list?

There was once a review in sangeetham.com written by Arunkumar Sridharan (who is not in this forum AFAIK) - for a Pittsburg Venkatesvara temple concert ( 2003 or so ) of Dr Balamurali Krishna. Dr BMK sang sogasu jUDa taramA and there was a good cheering applause for that singing from a section of the audience.

Now Arunkumar went ahead and declared that sogasu jUDa tarama was applauded because it was a recent telugu movie song! In one full swoop he invalidated the musical experience of a set of people of what is perfectly a Carnatic music rendition - as per your standards!

I was there in that concert. His kalyANi rang in our ears for long time! He did not do svarams for either. I could tell the people who applauded were diverse set of people - not the normal Mylapore Andhra folks - if you know what I mean.

Now where is the inclusion mentality here - for a simple damn , straightforward scenario - may I ask? We don't see eye to eye with people who showed up in your concert hall and we are so much worried about taking this music across to people who didn't bother a zilch and engender a hatred for Indian Heritage, all in the name of art, technicalities and creativity!

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#37 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: ↑
03 Jan 2020, 02:12
Sachi_R wrote: ↑
30 Dec 2019, 05:58
12. D K Pattammal showed how a Brahmin woman could conquer the male bastion of CM by equalling them in all-round musical excellence...
Two points.

1. Sachi_R was only reporting what TMK said.

2. That TMK refers to her as a "Brahmin" woman shows how much a victim of the same casteist mentality he is, all his sanctimonious moralizing notwithstanding.

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#38 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by shankarank »

#37-> to #1 - Yes indeed! "Sachi_r wrote" is something the forum shows. Sachi_r posted is the implication. I am fully aware that he is reporting. I had to quote it using the forum tool, so it is clear what I am responding to.

#2 -> Look , it is perfectly fine for people of Mylapore and surrounds and connected people from distant lands to form an association and have an opinionated formulation of what is Carnatic music to them. And an association of humans does not just happen without regard to their history, kinship , social capital etc. It is not some random hodge-podge group called via face book one day.

Last checked :
The Constitution of India provides for freedom to assemble and the freedom to associate. Article 19 (1)(b) provides that all citizens shall have the right to assemble peaceably and without arms. While Article 19 (1)(c) accords all citizens the right to form associations or unions or cooperative societies.
Then the same people should just assert that right and simply dismiss all calls to do this or that. No other consideration should enter the picture. However a musicologist sitting probably in experts committee was not sure what is music ( a generic question he himself posed in a podcast!). Just be clear and say this is what it is.

To me the constitution itself is irrelevant as long as it doesn't come and stop me from doing what I am doing.

RSR has his definition of what is his preferred view of what is Carnatic music, but he only bought 78 RPM(s). By his own statement he has not come to listen to sabha music. So I have to think he has no skin in this game.

The problem is only when we give importance to some invasive ideas and discourses muddying up the picture and give it serious thought and respond, as if we are entertaining all these ideas of Human rights, equality and fraternity which don't belong in this context!

That's when I had to raise these questions about how inclusive were you when the opportunity was presented!

The man was quoting from UN resolutions as well once. "Any body has a right to adopt any culture or heritage of their choice". So then MSS doesn't have a right to pick the Brahmin culture ?? What nonsense!

If you don't care about all these inclusive business - no more discussion.

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#39 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by SrinathK »

Btw all of you do check out the Music Academy's concert schedules from the 1930s. Some interesting things....

The very first concert in 1935 was by a lady - Mrs. Nagaswamy Iyer

DKP had performed in 1935 itself, and addressed as Miss D K Pattammal :)

"Miss" Balasaraswathi gave the first Bharatanatyam performance in 1935 (was the term already around then?)

Semmangudi had sung in 1935!

Brinda and Mukta appear from 1937 onwards. That was also the year when Veena Dhanammal performed.

GNB and MMI feature from the 1937-1938 series.

MSS's first concert at MA IIRC was in 1938.

Vasundhara Devi gave the first HM concert in 1938.

NCV if I read the name right, performed from 1938

Madras Lalithangi had sung in 1935.

I think the first Lady mridangist at the Academy happened in 1941. Someone verify the name.

K B Sundarambal performed. In 1941.

First gottuvadyam kutcheri by Savithri Ammal in 1943.

M S Amma sang for Radha and Anadhi's dance recital in 1948.

MLV gave her first concert in 1954. The violinist was MS Gopalakrishnan!

There are a lot of other names I never knew about too. And on it goes...
Last edited by SrinathK on 03 Jan 2020, 15:51, edited 1 time in total.

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#40 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by sureshvv »

In light of this, Statement #1 has to be properly corrected to state:

Carnatic Music was way ahead of (more progressive than) the society at large as far as Gender bias was concerned.

On rethinking this, I feel Caste bias could also be included although to a lesser extent.

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#41 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by RSR »

@38
RSR has his definition of what is his preferred view of what is Carnatic music, but he only bought 78 RPM(s). By his own statement he has not come to listen to sabha music. So I have to think he has no skin in this game.
Avoid using names, please. and what a tasteless and crude phrase 'bought'..IAm I to understand that one buys CD etc to store in their vault!
1)As if , any one who does not attend sabha cutcheris has no idea of CM! Preposterous! . I could as well turn the table and say, people who learn their music only through sabah concerts, lec-dems ,socializing, and gossip-canteen stuff , are second rate as rasikas.

2) That is a mis-respresentation. I had also mentioned that I had heard a number of radio concerts (live) in the dacades ( 1952-1966). ( MS, DKP,MMI,SSI,GNB,ARI, KARUKURICHI,AKCN,SATHUR AGS, DDESIKAR, MALI, ALATHUR and perhaps a few more). And also quite a few Nagaswaram performances in temple procession. I was a resident of Mylapore for six years, for my college education as a day-scholar very near Kapaleeswara Temple. All my uncles, cousins were trained in CM though not for concert purpose and by hearing them sing , I too got some idea. My aunts were all trained in VeeNa. So, the exposure began very early and lasted for nearly 20 years of the best period of CM ..
NO?


3) How are we justified in presuming that only Chennai folks that too free to attend concert-hall music can form their theory of CM approach? Madras is not Tamilnad.

4) There is a major school even among the orthodox CM practitioners that the music of Trinity and pre-trinity is meant to be sung plainly without any artiste-made improvisation, and preferably without any raga elaboration, swarams etc.
In their view with which I agree, a concert will just have a string of about a dozen kritis/keertanas , rendered with bhaavam. All else, is irreverent to the spirit of the vak-geyakarars and the spirit of CM itself. ( If you insist, I can locate and share that injunction from very famous musicians themselves.) No place for sruti-bedam either.
( DhanammaaL school? I have to check up).


.. A compromise was arrived at by ARI school, for a judicious and proportioned mix. followed by all the greats of that era ( GNB, MMI, ALATHUR, MUSIRI,SSI, MVI and CHEMABAI.).

5) Actually applause means very little. From my wide contacts with the post 1980 generation, it is mostly a matter of courtesy and related to matters unrelated to CM intricacies as such. It is simply unconvincing that the audience in Manila/ Cairo/ Moscow/Edinburg /
( absolutely no dis-respect meant to my icon Smt.MS).. As Chembai is said to have remarked once, 'in our days, only the less talented used to migrate to America for their music career'.)
and such far off places can really appreciate finer CM except in the first /second wave of south indians who migrated to USA for studies and career. The subsequent y2k generation is not likely to be very erudite in CM though they may attend concerts and applaud for the wrong reasons. Perhaps, chamber music alone will reveal the real level.

6) You are requested to mention the name to draw attention in this forum.
Better still, you can just give post number , quote the lines and give your opinion. After all, it is view point that matters and not who says it.
Last edited by RSR on 03 Jan 2020, 14:30, edited 1 time in total.

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#42 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by RSR »

@37
1. Sachi_R was only reporting what TMK said.
True. Such a fine scholar like (Sri.Sachi) @Sachi_R , could have avoided writing about the venomous , uncivilized , goebbels-like pseudo social awareness rant ,and giving that 'know-all' ( we can get all that history stuff from the writings and blogs of so many scholars in this internet age-free) HARMFUL publicity ,that too in a section meant for reviews of on-going music season concerts at CHENNAI.
What is the thread in musicians section (TMK) for?
--------------------------------------------
That TMK refers to her as a "Brahmin" woman shows how much a victim of the same casteist mentality he is, all his sanctimonious moralizing notwithstanding.
Nicely put. May be quite a few skeletons in that cupboard but better left unexplored.

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#43 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by SrinathK »

sureshvv wrote: ↑
03 Jan 2020, 12:27
In light of this, Statement #1 has to be properly corrected to state:

Carnatic Music was way ahead of (more progressive than) the society at large as far as Gender bias was concerned.

On rethinking this, I feel Caste bias could also be included although to a lesser extent.
Because they sang in MA does not mean the issues faced by them were resolved then. MA for all the things we complain about them, seems to have been ahead of the times. Being the 1930s I could understand the situation then, but the fact that some of these issues are still around here and there in 2020 is surprising.

The data also shows you it took many decades to build up a music season with as many concerts happening as it does now. It was economics and loss of patronage that ultimately made it impossible for other communities to keep going. Semmangudi once recalled how he had for the first time he had seen a Rs. 50 (or was it Rs. 100) note.

Today we can talk of these issues because we have become affluent enough and have enough opportunity to actually do something about these issues.

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#44 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: ↑
03 Jan 2020, 13:57
1)As if , any one who does not attend sabha cutcheris has no idea of CM! Preposterous! .
I did not say you have no idea of CM. I just said you may not have much stake in what happens to sabha music. Your post which pointed to "pasupathivugal" which predicted the death knell of this medium is all too recent.
RSR wrote: ↑
03 Jan 2020, 13:57
I could as well turn the table and say, people who learn their music only through sabah concerts, lec-dems ,socializing, and gossip-canteen stuff , are second rate as rasikas.
Thank you. Then inclusiveness is out of question for you. In fact I appreciate your discrimination, and discrimination is a positive word in Indian culture.
RSR wrote: ↑
03 Jan 2020, 13:57
2) That is a mis-respresentation.
Same as the response to (1) , I did not misrepresent.
RSR wrote: ↑
03 Jan 2020, 13:57
3) How are we justified in presuming that only Chennai folks that too free to attend concert-hall music can form their theory of CM approach? Madras is not Tamilnad.
The Chennai folks are the target of discussion isn't it? Especially the attitude of rasikas and how they received music? Chennai folks here is figurative. They could be in Bangalore too. Also, once, the person who is being reported here, went to Bangalore and told them, don't let what is happening in Chennai happen here too! :lol: . You talk about theory of music and Govinda Diskhitar. Nobody listens to vINA ( that he worked on to fix the frets!) - again figuratively - vINA concerts do happen ritually. They may be your true chamber audience. And also after reading all that theory it was declared that "Mridangam is NOT music". It either invalidates all the theories, or it invalidates all of the lived experience by Chennai folks - The Carnatic music - which was born there!


RSR wrote: ↑
03 Jan 2020, 13:57
4) There is a major school even among the orthodox CM practitioners that the music of Trinity and pre-trinity is meant to be sung plainly without any artiste-made improvisation, and preferably without any raga elaboration, swarams etc.
In their view with which I agree, a concert will just have a string of about a dozen kritis/keertanas , rendered with bhaavam. All else, is irreverent to the spirit of the vak-geyakarars and the spirit of CM itself. ( If you insist, I can locate and share that injunction from very famous musicians themselves.) No place for sruti-bedam either.
( DhanammaaL school? I have to check up).


.. A compromise was arrived at by ARI school, for a judicious and proportioned mix. followed by all the greats of that era ( GNB, MMI, ALATHUR, MUSIRI,SSI, MVI and CHEMABAI.).
You just invalidated even the Radio music you heard. ;) There was a vidvAn ( forget his name) , whom I read about in gossippy dailies ( sometimes they might enlighten too, like the radio ;) ) , who refused to give gramaphone records , because he considered it an affront to music to reduce it to few minutes. If that Vidvan's attitude carried, even 78 RPM would have been out of question for you :twisted: . You also confirmed when the Carnatic music as we know it was created, Nah it was not in 1600.
RSR wrote: ↑
03 Jan 2020, 13:57
5) Actually applause means very little. From my wide contacts with the post 1980 generation, it is mostly a matter of courtesy and related to matters unrelated to CM intricacies as such. It is simply unconvincing that the audience in Manila/ Cairo/ Moscow/Edinburg /
( absolutely no dis-respect meant to my icon Smt.MS).. As Chembai is said to have remarked once, 'in our days, only the less talented used to migrate to America for their music career'.)
and such far off places can really appreciate finer CM except in the first /second wave of south indians who migrated to USA for studies and career. The subsequent y2k generation is not likely to be very erudite in CM though they may attend concerts and applaud for the wrong reasons. Perhaps, chamber music alone will reveal the real level.
Now I talked about the applause to set the context. The focus should be on what Mr Arunkumar Sridharan wrote. Don't divert to your convenience - especially required for the well read. He is an authentic chennaite for all practical purposes and he was the one who was vocal and writing at that time. Second , it is not "his" opinion - I am not that naive to believe that. Some of the judgements he made is reflective of how the general chennai culture thought about their music! When @sankark made his statements about separating MSS singing into two spheres, I could not but hark back to that incident/review.

And people like them are specifically target of the discussion. Specific question have been asked by the covered person of this thread, on how comfortable we feel if a person from a slum shows up and sits in the sabha. How comfortable did we feel, after all in a temple auditorium ( not even a sabha you see!) in United states ( after crossing all the seas - ezhu kaDal thANDi) , when some devotees showed up for the concert of their icon - Dr BMK.

By the way did NOT MSS sing to such audience? She catered to what audience? They ( or should we say the Lord?)pulled her family out of misery!

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#45 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by rshankar »

SrinathK wrote: ↑
03 Jan 2020, 11:15
"Miss" Balasaraswathi gave the first Bharatanatyam performance in 1935 (was the term already around then?)

Possible - Smt. Rukmini Devi's arangETRam was in 1935 - it was around that time (it is reported) that the term 'bharatanATyam' was applied to the dance form that was previously called sadir, kUttu, or dAsiATTam.
SrinathK wrote: ↑
03 Jan 2020, 11:15
I think the first Lady mridangist at the Academy happened in 1941. Someone verify the name.
Is it Ms. Hamsadamayanti?

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#46 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Is it Ms. Hamsadamayanti?
Srimati Hamsadamayanti was one of the earliest female Mridangists to perform at the Academy. She accompanied Srimathi Kesi (Flute) on 29th December 1945. In 1946 she performed twice.

Another early female Mridangist was Srimati Kanakambujam who performed on 22nd December 1945 as supporting artist for Srimati Ananthalakshmi Satagopan (Vocal).

But the first female Mridangist to perform at the Academy was Srimathi T. J. Sethu Bai. She accompanied Srimathis Brinda and Muktha (Vocal) on 1st January 1943. Srimathi Abhiramasundari was the Violinist.

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#47 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by SrinathK »

@Sachi_R How many TMK threads like this will you keep opening? You have set the bomb and run away just in time. :mrgreen: :P.

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#48 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by shankarank »

Did he not ask for a separate forum once? :lol:

Well it is time to discuss how to date Carnatic music :lol: . History and facts are frequently mentioned, but they result in no clarity. The person who is subject of this thread, is conveniently employing a ploy against half educated public out there letting out some sound bytes. Carnatic music is after all modern, goes the argument ( parallel to how BharatanAtyam is modern in the same vein) as it was created by erasure of old stuff. This is directed towards those who had to be turned from their prejudice about old fashioned stuff.

Usually erasing will never happen much in Indian culture, even under changes! But in this instance it was not left to itself. There were interventions!

Sanjay Subrahmanyam once addressed a related matter in his early Cleveland visits. That of Ranga Ramanuja Iyengar (RRI) and his thesis that Carnatic music ( I don't know if he used that term) or traditional music is dead. Sanjay mentioned RRI was doing this for 60 years. But then he added, we are still singing and people are still coming! And I remember a sweet line which gets me to laugh whenever I remember it: "Appo pADina mAdiri ippO yarum pADaratillai" :D ( We don't sing now like how they sang then!)

So traditional music was all dead , before the golden era as per RRI.

Now heard another interesting vibe: Prince Rama Varma in his address to sadas during Sanjay's SangIta Kalanidhi year. He was quoting the speech of Palghat Mani Iyer - from memorial for Ariyakudi after his passing. Mani Iyer it seems said "Carnatic music is dead" and sat down! Semmangudi spoke next and expressed his tributes and said we are all here to carry it on. Mani Iyer got up again walked to the podium and simply repeated the line : "Carnatic music is dead"

So Carnatic music was dead before the golden era and died again :(

How do we reconcile this? These are personal convictions of people, but only one thing helps us here. That of cyclical creation and destruction :ugeek: 8-) :lol: . The purANic view!

This is actually more helpful than all the history and facts! Because otherwise, we get all caught up with lack of documentation and lack of records and proof etc. etc.

Or you could take a vEdic view : sangIta is sanAtana - given to nArada and has always been there! :D
Last edited by shankarank on 04 Jan 2020, 11:00, edited 2 times in total.

Sachi_R
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#49 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by Sachi_R »

@SrinathK, #47...not running away. Just that there is nothing more for me to say. Period.

RSR
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#50 Re: T. M. Krishna Lec-dem on Gender in CM - DKP Centenary

Post by RSR »

Actually, it is a fact that ALL the famous CM vocalists, ( may be Ariyakkudi Ramanuja Iengar was a pioneer), Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer, GNB, Chitthoor Subramanya Pilai, DandapaNi Desikar, Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer, Chembai Vaidyanatha Bagavathar, Musiri Subramanya Iyer, Madurai Mani Iyer and Alathoor and among lady-vocalists, Smt.MS, Smt.DKP, and Smt.NCV gave a lot of 78 rpm records of pure CM right from 1936.
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I am giving a partial list below.
(a list from discogs- 78 rpm-indian classical music)
https://www.discogs.com/Miss-M-S-Subbul ... e/13286735
M-S-Subbulakshmi-Orutharam-Saravana-Bhava/release/13169954
Semmangudi-Sr%C4%ABniv%C4%81sa-Aiyar-Kulantharum-Ragamalika/release/13165096-
Miss-M-S-Subbulakshmi-Shri-Raghukula-Useni-/release13154282-
M-S-Subbulakshmi-O-Jagadamba-Ananda-Bhairvi-/release/13144337
Chembai-Vaidyanatha-Bhagavatar-Siva-Siva-Yanaradma-Kamavardhini/release/13044528
M-S-Subbulakshmi-Enakkun-Nirupadam-/release/12994771
Mudikondan-Venkataraman-Iyer-Sri-Raghuvara/release/12994673
Rajamanickam-Pillai-Sangita-Gnanamu-Dhanyasi-Violin-Solo/release12994489
Miss-M-S-Subbulakshmi-Nagumomu/release/12983865
Thiruvizhimizhalai-Bros-Koti-Nathulu-Thodi-/release/12983820
Chittoor-Subramaniam-Pillai-Thodi/release/12981739
Chittoor-Subramaniam-Pillai-Mayamma-Vasantha/release/12981712
Chembai-Vaidyanatha-Bhagavatar-Koomarvenkat-Javali-Kamas/release/12980025
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All these were very early records-- 1938.
It was a blessing for people in places outside Madras. I regret that I am unable to access Ms.MS (1938) rendering of intha sowkyam, nagumomu , the Anandabairavi song etc.
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Some point to ponder for you. Of the hundreds of kritis of the Trinity, the time for the kriti alone will hardly exceed 3-6 minutes. actually even less.
I have often marveled that Smt.MS gave some ragamalikas in 5 stanzas ( 78 rpm- six minutes only) , she could bring out the ragam in just one minute (even providing for orchestration interlude).
If one has read the great plays of the English Bard ( especially his happy -ending plays like As you like it and 15 more, each play occupies just about 20 pages at the most).
http://www.opensourceshakespeare.com/vi ... /plays.php
In what way, a vocalist better the rendering of the MaNirangu song and Ananda Bairavi songs (MD) of DKP...they were just 78 rpm
records.

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We already had a long thread on 78 rpm records. Varsha_ji was about to give great many from his collection but there were so many intrusions and diversions and regrettably he managed to give just one link ! ( Pity. )
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#81 Re: Earliest carnatic music recording?
Post by Balummi
I have a Cutchery set gramaphone record ( now digitalised ) of MMI recorded in 1936 in which he sings RTP in Kalyani . It runs for more than 15 minutes! This record was got from a mamoth film record collector in Sterling Road , Chennai.
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Here is from bloingo blog.
You have no idea how happy I am! More Madurai Mani Iyer and most likely 78 rpm's of old stock transferred to vinyl in the early seventies. It does not get so very much better than that!
http://bolingo69.blogspot.com/2011/05/m ... a-emi.html

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