Thoughts on Thaats

Classical Music of North India
vasanthakokilam
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#26 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by vasanthakokilam » 19 Feb 2018, 21:37

RSR, I agree the HM system is simpler since each of R, G, D N take a smaller and higher variation.

But that can not be used to represent all the 72 melakartas unless one is willing to allow the same solfa symbol to be used twice in the definition of a melakarta. So, instead of ( S R1 G1 M1 P D1 N3 S ) we will have to resort to
(S R1 R2 M1 P D1 N3 S). There is no problem in notations and not a problem with alapana, compositions and niraval, but there will be an issue in kalpanaswarams.

HM system does not deal with the 40 vivadhi melas so that simple system is complete for their use. I do not know if HM has the vivadhi usage in ragas but if so, they are not reflected in the That classification system but folded into the one That or the other.

But the invention of R3, G1, D3, N1 is a stroke of genius to bring all the known melodic forms under a uniform framework. But there is always an opportunity cost for any decision. In this case that opportunity cost is simplicity. Those additions made the system more complex but it can be understood with a few hours of reading material that is clearly written.

As an aside, what is interesting is, another kind of Vivadhi, namely using M1 and M2, is common in HM and not so in CM, except for the borrowed ones from HM. It is folded into the That system as one would expect. On the CM side, the 72 melakartha system does not recognize them at the level of melakarthas. But we know the great ragas that use both Ms in a creative and judicious fashion to some fantastic effects which fortunately CM also have borrowed ( like Saranga, Hamil Kalyani, Behag etc. ). And in this case, CM does what HM does, namely absorb those ragas into the existing Melas, rather than expanding the framework to accommodate them there by increasing the complexity even more.

(I call M1, M2 usage Vivadhi since it fits the definition of vivadhi but no one calls it as such. I guess it is vivadhi only if they are used in succession ).
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vasanthakokilam
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#27 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by vasanthakokilam » 19 Feb 2018, 21:48

sureshvv wrote:
18 Feb 2018, 22:59
Vayoo Flute wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 21:26
For example, if I encounter a raga that is unfamiliar, but am told that it is a janya of Mela#69, I know exactly what swaras are used.
Why is that good? And who is this magic person who will tell you the magic number? Better that you learn to listen and deduce the swaras that are used.
That only works for 'uttama rasikas' and not for dabblers like me. What will we do to sound knowledgeable? Throw around melakartha numbers.. ;)

Joking aside, the syntactic compression offered by the melakartha number has practical benefits. Among the people who are well versed in that numbering scheme and what they represent, you save a lot of breath in referring to melas in discussions.
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RSR
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#28 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR » 19 Feb 2018, 23:21

Sri.VK-> Thank you very much for the explanation. I am approaching the topic from HM thats angle. By temparament ,I have more liking for Hindusthani ragams ( effect of MSS MEERA SONGS ? from very early age). The 'thaat' system is post-venkatamahin. very recent and naturally a simplified system. Generally, HM tunes and ragams are sweeter and I am trying to find out if it has something to do with the scales chosen. I am confining right now, to the ten thats only.
i am yet to find any of the ten having both M1 and M2. You have made a very nice point.
As an aside, what is interesting is, another kind of Vivadhi, namely using M1 and M2, is common in HM and not so in CM, except for the borrowed ones from HM. It is folded into the That system as one would expect. On the CM side, the 72 melakartha system does not recognize them at the level of melakarthas. But we know the great ragas that use both Ms in a creative and judicious fashion to some fantastic effects which fortunately CM also have borrowed ( like Saranga, Hamil Kalyani, Behag etc. )
. i will explore and share.
(from web)
1. Bilawal (=Ionian mode): S R G m P D N S'
2. Khamaj (=Mixolydian mode): S R G m P D n S'
3. Kafi (=Dorian mode): S R g m P D n S'
4. Asavari (=Aeolian mode): S R g m P d n S'
5. Bhairavi (=Phrygian mode): S r g m P d n S'
6. Bhairav: S r G m P d N S'
7. Kalyan (=Lydian mode): S R G M P D N S'
8. Marwa: S r G M P D N S'
9. Poorvi: S r G M P d N S'
10. Todi: S r g M P d N S'
---
1) BILAWAL(HM) SANKARABARANAM(CM) -> S R2 G2 M1 P D2 N2 S'
2) KAMAAJ (HM)-> HARIKAMBODHI(CM)-> S R2 G2 M1 P D2 N1 S'
3) KAFI(HM) -> KARAHARAPRIYA(CM) -> S R2 G1 M1 P D2 N1 S'
4) ASAVERI(HM)-> NATABAIRAVI -> S R2 G1 M1 P D1 N1 S'
5)BHAIRAVI (tODi) S R1 G1 M1 P D1 N1 S'
6) BAIRAV (maayamaaLava gowLa) S R1 G2 M1 P D1 N2 S'
7) KALYAN (mEcakalyaaNi) S R2 G2 M2 P D2 N2 S'
8)MARWA (gamanaashrama) S R1 G2 M2 P D1 N2 S
9) POORVI (pantuvaraaLi) S R1 G2 M2 P D2 N2 S'
10) TODI (shubhapantuvaraaLi) S R1 G1 M2 P D1 N2 S'

-------------------------------------------------------------------
1. kalyaaN (mEcakalyaaNi)
2. bilaaval (dheera shankaraabharaNam)
3. khamaaj (harikaambhOji)
4. bhairav (maayamaaLava gowLa)
5. bhairavi (tODi)
6. asaavEri (naTabhairavi)
7. tODi (shubhapantuvaraaLi)
8. poorvi (pantuvaraaLi)
9. maarvaa (gamanaashrama)
10. kaafi (kharaharapriyaa)
Thank you once agin, for your time,patience and presentation.
My journey to classical music was from songs->ragam->swarams->grammar .
Though there may be many songs in the same ragam, much depends on the composition, lyrics, theme, orchestration(if any) and above all else, the singer. and his(her) approach . Tastes may vary ofcourse.
Last edited by RSR on 20 Feb 2018, 14:12, edited 2 times in total.
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RSR
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#29 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR » 19 Feb 2018, 23:41

Just curious.. Any thing wrong in this representatation?
1) KANAKANGI S R1 R2 M1 P D1 D2 S
2) RATHNANGI D1 N1
3) GANAMURTHI D1 N2

4) VANASPATHI D2 N1
5) MANAVATHI D2 N2

6) TANARUPI N1 N2
---------------------------------------
7) SENAVATHI S R1 G1 M1 P D1 D2 S
8) HANUMATHTHODI D1 N1
9) DHENUKA D1 N2

10)NATAKAPRIYA D2 N1
11)GOKILAPRIYA D2 N2

12)ROOPAVATHI N1 N2
---------------------------------------
13)GAYAKAPRIYA S R1 G2 M1 P D1 D2 S
14)VAKULABARANAM D1 N1
15)MAYAMALAVAGOWLA D1 N2

16)CHAKRAVAKAM D2 N1
17)SOORYAKANTHAM D2 N2

18)HATAKAMBARI N1 N2
--------------------------------------------
and so on?
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Vayoo Flute
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#30 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute » 20 Feb 2018, 05:59

RSR:

As long as notations are simple to understood and accepted by most, any notation set would do. If you want to use the HM notation, then ragas like kaNakAngi or rasikapriya can be problematic since you would have two "r"s and two "d"s or two "g"s and two "n"s. This can cause some confusion. How would you sing the svarAms? HM never had ragams like nATai or varALi to deal with and their notation system follows their raga databank.

There are no subtle frequency discrepancies, if that is one of your questions. As we know, in both forms of classical music, there are subtle shades of each of the notes above (except of course for sa and pa), bringing the division of the octave into something more like 22 notes rather than 12. Imagine having a melakarta scheme with 22 svarAs rather than 12!
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sureshvv
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#31 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by sureshvv » 20 Feb 2018, 09:19

vasanthakokilam wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 21:48
Joking aside, the syntactic compression offered by the melakartha number has practical benefits. Among the people who are well versed in that numbering scheme and what they represent, you save a lot of breath in referring to melas in discussions.
Agree. It is a time saver in discussions. And better to have short discussions inside the concert hall!

What I was trying to address was that somehow this made the system "superior". Just having a mela system does not make the music any better :D
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vasanthakokilam
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#32 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by vasanthakokilam » 20 Feb 2018, 11:37

sureshvv wrote:
20 Feb 2018, 09:19
What I was trying to address was that somehow this made the system "superior". Just having a mela system does not make the music any better :D
The latter statement is most definitely true. About the first statement, it is a mixed bag. I think calling the melakarta scheme a superior meta theory of music is defensible given its coverage, symmetry and uniformity.
If ever anyone talks of aesthetics of music theory, the mela system will definitely be in the top few.

While it does not make the music better, it has definitely contributed to the source material for composers.

The negative is also contributed by its strength. As you suggest, people sometimes conflate a superior musicological framework into the merits of the music itself. More over, the syntactic excellence may make people claim a disproportionate scholarship in music knowledge itself.
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RSR
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#33 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR » 20 Feb 2018, 13:53

Vayoo Flute » 20 Feb 2018, 05:59
As long as notations are simple to understood and accepted by most, any notation set would do. If you want to use the HM notation, then ragas like kaNakAngi or rasikapriya can be problematic since you would have two "r"s and two "d"s or two "g"s and two "n"s.
Respected Sir, ..why any confusion? They will be written as R1,R2 , G1,G2 etc .though it 'violates' that a sampoorna rahgam should not have two R's etc in seccession. Can we say that in none of the ten 'thaats of HM ', such a pattern occurs? could it be the reason, that they are sweeter? ( not arguing , but just gathering experts' advice)
There are no subtle frequency discrepancies, if that is one of your questions. As we know, in both forms of classical music, there are subtle shades of each of the notes above (except of course for sa and pa), bringing the division of the octave into something more like 22 notes rather than 12. Imagine having a melakarta scheme with 22 svarAs rather than 12!
Very true. But then, how does a musician, ( especially, a harmonium or even veena player , get to know and play the ragam correctly from just notation, which uses only 12 notes? A read a nice article recently.
http://www.22shruti.com/research_topic_38.asp
The article states that there ARE subtle differences in ferequencies.
It is an image. I am sharing it in my next post for your esteemed comment.
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#34 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR » 20 Feb 2018, 13:54

Image
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sureshvv
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#35 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by sureshvv » 20 Feb 2018, 15:12

vasanthakokilam wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 21:37


But the invention of R3, G1, D3, N1 is a stroke of genius to bring all the known melodic forms under a uniform framework. But there is always an opportunity cost for any decision. In this case that opportunity cost is simplicity. Those additions made the system more complex but it can be understood with a few hours of reading material that is clearly written.
There is another cost as well. Which is the loss/atrophy of raganga ragas. The straight jacket of the melakarta system has cannibalized many of those ragas,
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Vayoo Flute
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#36 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute » 20 Feb 2018, 20:13

RSR:

Forget the harmonium. It is inaccurate with even just using the 12 note octave divide. It generally uses the equal temperament division of the octave as in Western music. That is why the harmonium player can change to different shrutis by means of a slide mechanism, just as a piano player can shift to another key easily. While the harmonium has had its success in bhajans and light music, it is totally inappropriate for Indian classical music. Apart from the shruti inaccuracies, it is not possible to produce the various types of gamakams.

The veena is quite another cup of tea. It is not just the frets that determine the shruti. The downward pressure applied on the strings and the lateral pull on the strings are used to subtly vary the shruti. Ultimately, it is the raaga bhava and the ear that guides one to make the right selection of each quarter note.

More on the 22 notes in a separate post.
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#37 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR » 20 Feb 2018, 21:56

@36. VF SIR, People seem to be innovating all the time. I agree with you regarding the old Harmonium. but there is a new arrival- 22 shruthi harmanium. " This patented instrument is the 1st and only Harmonium in the world capable of playing 22 Shrutis.The harmonium has sets of accurately pre-tuned top quality reeds with a simple and special device to select the desired Shrutis required in a Raga.The underlying fundamental mathematical principles generating 22 Shrutis have been explained in depth, in the 22 Shruti Research section of this website.UNIQUENESS OF THE 22 SHRUTI HARMONIUM
The 22-Shruti-Harmonium has eradicated the Equitempered notes from the traditional Harmonium replacing them with Indian 22 Shrutis. This Harmonium provides accurately 22 Shrutis in Shadja, Pancham and Madhyam."http://www.22shruti.com/22_shruti_harmonium.asp
And the same site speaks of the 22 shruthi veeNa project! ( continuing..)

---
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RSR
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#38 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR » 20 Feb 2018, 22:09

1) All that I want to know is whether it is permissible to follow s r1 r2 g1 g2 m1 m2 p d1 d2 n1 n2 S representation uniformly for both HM and CM ragams whether thaat or meLakartha and even for other janya ragams. It will be easier to visualize as many sites give the harmonium key images for ragams.
2) whether we are playing the ragam/song in instruments or singing, there need be no difficulty unless we are mentioning the swaram. Let us just sing . Perhaps we can avoid such ragams for swaraprastharam in vocal.( I may not be using the correct terminology). 3) I dont see why we should know the janaka scale to appreciate and enjoy the ragam. 4) Likewise, all this talk of 'morning ragam' and such, seems pointless. Considering the primeslot concerts in our music sabhas, are the artistes following the morning-evening-night pattern in choosing the ragams for the concert? If we happen to listen to Radio concerts, would this rule apply? Just thinking loud. and requesting clarifications.
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Vayoo Flute
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#39 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute » 20 Feb 2018, 22:31

The 22-shruti harmonium is interesting. The chords certainly sound better on it than the standard equi-tempered ones. A major disadvantage, though, is that you need a separate harmonium for each shruti of SA. You cannot just take one such harmonium and use it to accompany different singers using varying SA shrutis. You still have the problem of not being able to play gamakams properly, since the notes are discrete.
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#40 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR » 20 Feb 2018, 22:32

one more point.... The ten thaat system was not invented by the author. He toured all over the country where HM is practiced for many generations as an oral tradition and came out with the scheme to include all the derived and original HM ragams. That raises the question... Instinctively, the HM system has avoided all of the 72 of CM janakaragams except those 10. Now my exercise is to similarly take only those ten janakarahgams in CM too and list all the janya ragams said to be based on them ( by what criterion?).. I find that these ten are base for great many enchanting ragams in CM. Am I right is surmising that famous artistes like Smt.MS chose ragams from these ten thaats only , repeatedly, for some reason? Late Sri.Venkatakailasam has supplied a list of about 300 songs in her repertoire and am analyzing her choice on this basis. Wrong premise?
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#41 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR » 20 Feb 2018, 22:35

@39> VF Sir, Agreed. Good point.
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vasanthakokilam
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#42 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by vasanthakokilam » 20 Feb 2018, 23:03

RSR, I think we are using way too many words to get to the crux of the point in answering your original question. If you are talking about Non-vidadhi ragas, then the HM notational system is fine. But if you use that for vivadi ragas, as VF and I have stated, kalpanaswaras will be confusing, for example singing'Ri' in two different frequencies will be odd. So it does not work for that. That is about it.

Mentally, for non-vivadhi ragas which are the main ragas in vogue, you can use the informal terminology even CM people will definitely relate to, 'Chinna' (smaller) and 'Periya'(bigger or higher).
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vasanthakokilam
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#43 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by vasanthakokilam » 20 Feb 2018, 23:09

About what the Thaats cover and not cover.
There are 8 'tonal complexes' in CM. As I wrote before, think of them from a CM perspective as 'Thodi complex', 'MMG complex', 'KHP complex', "SB complex" and the four Pratimadyamam buddies of these four. CM covers all of these completely and more than adequately.
The 10 Thaat system covers 7 of the 8. What it does not expose as a separate Thaat is the Pratimadyama buddy of the KHP complex, namely Shanmukhapriya-Simendramadyamam-Hemavathi-Darmavathi.

It is quite possible that ragas of that ilk were not in practice in HM and that is why Prof. Bhatkande did not create a Thaat for it.
You can see HM musicians adopting now some of the ragas from this complex in their own unique way, especially Simhendramadyamam.
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vasanthakokilam
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#44 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by vasanthakokilam » 20 Feb 2018, 23:12

sureshvv wrote:
20 Feb 2018, 15:12
vasanthakokilam wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 21:37


But the invention of R3, G1, D3, N1 is a stroke of genius to bring all the known melodic forms under a uniform framework. But there is always an opportunity cost for any decision. In this case that opportunity cost is simplicity. Those additions made the system more complex but it can be understood with a few hours of reading material that is clearly written.
There is another cost as well. Which is the loss/atrophy of raganga ragas. The straight jacket of the melakarta system has cannibalized many of those ragas,
Please elaborate on the raganga ragas. Were they in vogue in CM? Thx
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sureshvv
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#45 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by sureshvv » 21 Feb 2018, 09:02

vasanthakokilam wrote:
20 Feb 2018, 23:12
Please elaborate on the raganga ragas. Were they in vogue in CM? Thx
aka the asampoorna melakarta paddhati followed by the Dikshitar school. The melakartas are more nuanced. G.Ravikiran gave a two part presentation on these at Raga Sudha not long ago. It may be on parivadini.
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#46 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR » 21 Feb 2018, 13:21

Sri.V.K,
What it does not expose as a separate Thaat is the Pratimadyama buddy of the KHP complex, namely Shanmukhapriya-Simendramadyamam-Hemavathi-Darmavathi.
... I agree. It is a huge loss for HM not to have included lovely ragams like Shanmugapriya and Simmendra madhyamam. and Dharmavathi
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sureshvv
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#47 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by sureshvv » 21 Feb 2018, 13:55

Huge opportunity for current and future HM artistes.
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shankarank
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#48 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by shankarank » 25 Feb 2018, 11:13

The reference to kAfi thAAT ( Quoting from TNS Gita Govindam discourse) it seems occurs in candana carcita 4th AshTapati.

pacama rAgam - kApi

http://www.karnatik.com/c2621.shtml

pancama - cycle of 5ths starting with g2 - n2 - m1 - s - p - r2 - d2

Just heard it - and it is mostly in use as miSra kafi . There seems to be a kAfi rendition : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzdxHsZ8INM , but very ocassionally - I heard a reach into G3. Some comments say miSra kafi. It has shades similar to sAlaka Bhairavi or kaRNa ranjani.

And here - he does use N3 sometimes. This is published as miSra kafi. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdG5Uwwly9A

So the kAfi thAAt is only taught looks like, thoughts on it make it something else!

Karaharapriya was also recommended for teaching once ;)
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#49 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute » 26 Feb 2018, 06:02

Ever wondered why mayamalagowlam is used for beginning lessons?

My thesis is as follows:

Sa and Pa are automatic. Our ears like to hear frequencies that are simple fractions when relating one note to another. To the base Sa, Pa is of course 3/2. Next simple fraction is 4/3. That is our suddha ma. Next is 5/4. This is antara Ga. Apart from Sa and Pa, the tambura/ shruti box coordinates very well with this Ga and Ma precisely because of this reason. For beginning students, it is easier to take notes that are only a half-note distant from the main resting notes, Sa and Pa. The Ri and Ni are stretches from the Sa, up and down respectively. These notes are invariably played as jaaru or kampitam starting from Sa. The Da is played in similar fashion from Pa. Chatusrati Ri or Da, being further away from the resting notes, are more likely to suffer from inaccuracies by the beginning student. Thus you have Mela 15.
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#50 Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR » 26 Feb 2018, 16:20

Went through this pdf last night and found it to be very good.

abstract
comaparative study of hindustani and carnatic ragas
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j ... -2ypa9DFTE
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