Thoughts on Thaats

Classical Music of North India
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vasanthakokilam
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by vasanthakokilam »

RSR, I agree the HM system is simpler since each of R, G, D N take a smaller and higher variation.

But that can not be used to represent all the 72 melakartas unless one is willing to allow the same solfa symbol to be used twice in the definition of a melakarta. So, instead of ( S R1 G1 M1 P D1 N3 S ) we will have to resort to
(S R1 R2 M1 P D1 N3 S). There is no problem in notations and not a problem with alapana, compositions and niraval, but there will be an issue in kalpanaswarams.

HM system does not deal with the 40 vivadhi melas so that simple system is complete for their use. I do not know if HM has the vivadhi usage in ragas but if so, they are not reflected in the That classification system but folded into the one That or the other.

But the invention of R3, G1, D3, N1 is a stroke of genius to bring all the known melodic forms under a uniform framework. But there is always an opportunity cost for any decision. In this case that opportunity cost is simplicity. Those additions made the system more complex but it can be understood with a few hours of reading material that is clearly written.

As an aside, what is interesting is, another kind of Vivadhi, namely using M1 and M2, is common in HM and not so in CM, except for the borrowed ones from HM. It is folded into the That system as one would expect. On the CM side, the 72 melakartha system does not recognize them at the level of melakarthas. But we know the great ragas that use both Ms in a creative and judicious fashion to some fantastic effects which fortunately CM also have borrowed ( like Saranga, Hamil Kalyani, Behag etc. ). And in this case, CM does what HM does, namely absorb those ragas into the existing Melas, rather than expanding the framework to accommodate them there by increasing the complexity even more.

(I call M1, M2 usage Vivadhi since it fits the definition of vivadhi but no one calls it as such. I guess it is vivadhi only if they are used in succession ).

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by vasanthakokilam »

sureshvv wrote: 18 Feb 2018, 22:59
Vayoo Flute wrote: 31 Jan 2018, 21:26 For example, if I encounter a raga that is unfamiliar, but am told that it is a janya of Mela#69, I know exactly what swaras are used.
Why is that good? And who is this magic person who will tell you the magic number? Better that you learn to listen and deduce the swaras that are used.
That only works for 'uttama rasikas' and not for dabblers like me. What will we do to sound knowledgeable? Throw around melakartha numbers.. ;)

Joking aside, the syntactic compression offered by the melakartha number has practical benefits. Among the people who are well versed in that numbering scheme and what they represent, you save a lot of breath in referring to melas in discussions.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

Sri.VK-> Thank you very much for the explanation. I am approaching the topic from HM thats angle. By temparament ,I have more liking for Hindusthani ragams ( effect of MSS MEERA SONGS ? from very early age). The 'thaat' system is post-venkatamahin. very recent and naturally a simplified system. Generally, HM tunes and ragams are sweeter and I am trying to find out if it has something to do with the scales chosen. I am confining right now, to the ten thats only.
i am yet to find any of the ten having both M1 and M2. You have made a very nice point.
As an aside, what is interesting is, another kind of Vivadhi, namely using M1 and M2, is common in HM and not so in CM, except for the borrowed ones from HM. It is folded into the That system as one would expect. On the CM side, the 72 melakartha system does not recognize them at the level of melakarthas. But we know the great ragas that use both Ms in a creative and judicious fashion to some fantastic effects which fortunately CM also have borrowed ( like Saranga, Hamil Kalyani, Behag etc. )
. i will explore and share.
(from web)
1. Bilawal (=Ionian mode): S R G m P D N S'
2. Khamaj (=Mixolydian mode): S R G m P D n S'
3. Kafi (=Dorian mode): S R g m P D n S'
4. Asavari (=Aeolian mode): S R g m P d n S'
5. Bhairavi (=Phrygian mode): S r g m P d n S'
6. Bhairav: S r G m P d N S'
7. Kalyan (=Lydian mode): S R G M P D N S'
8. Marwa: S r G M P D N S'
9. Poorvi: S r G M P d N S'
10. Todi: S r g M P d N S'
---
1) BILAWAL(HM) SANKARABARANAM(CM) -> S R2 G2 M1 P D2 N2 S'
2) KAMAAJ (HM)-> HARIKAMBODHI(CM)-> S R2 G2 M1 P D2 N1 S'
3) KAFI(HM) -> KARAHARAPRIYA(CM) -> S R2 G1 M1 P D2 N1 S'
4) ASAVERI(HM)-> NATABAIRAVI -> S R2 G1 M1 P D1 N1 S'
5)BHAIRAVI (tODi) S R1 G1 M1 P D1 N1 S'
6) BAIRAV (maayamaaLava gowLa) S R1 G2 M1 P D1 N2 S'
7) KALYAN (mEcakalyaaNi) S R2 G2 M2 P D2 N2 S'
8)MARWA (gamanaashrama) S R1 G2 M2 P D1 N2 S
9) POORVI (pantuvaraaLi) S R1 G2 M2 P D2 N2 S'
10) TODI (shubhapantuvaraaLi) S R1 G1 M2 P D1 N2 S'

-------------------------------------------------------------------
1. kalyaaN (mEcakalyaaNi)
2. bilaaval (dheera shankaraabharaNam)
3. khamaaj (harikaambhOji)
4. bhairav (maayamaaLava gowLa)
5. bhairavi (tODi)
6. asaavEri (naTabhairavi)
7. tODi (shubhapantuvaraaLi)
8. poorvi (pantuvaraaLi)
9. maarvaa (gamanaashrama)
10. kaafi (kharaharapriyaa)
Thank you once agin, for your time,patience and presentation.
My journey to classical music was from songs->ragam->swarams->grammar .
Though there may be many songs in the same ragam, much depends on the composition, lyrics, theme, orchestration(if any) and above all else, the singer. and his(her) approach . Tastes may vary ofcourse.
Last edited by RSR on 20 Feb 2018, 14:12, edited 2 times in total.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

Just curious.. Any thing wrong in this representatation?
1) KANAKANGI S R1 R2 M1 P D1 D2 S
2) RATHNANGI D1 N1
3) GANAMURTHI D1 N2

4) VANASPATHI D2 N1
5) MANAVATHI D2 N2

6) TANARUPI N1 N2
---------------------------------------
7) SENAVATHI S R1 G1 M1 P D1 D2 S
8) HANUMATHTHODI D1 N1
9) DHENUKA D1 N2

10)NATAKAPRIYA D2 N1
11)GOKILAPRIYA D2 N2

12)ROOPAVATHI N1 N2
---------------------------------------
13)GAYAKAPRIYA S R1 G2 M1 P D1 D2 S
14)VAKULABARANAM D1 N1
15)MAYAMALAVAGOWLA D1 N2

16)CHAKRAVAKAM D2 N1
17)SOORYAKANTHAM D2 N2

18)HATAKAMBARI N1 N2
--------------------------------------------
and so on?

Vayoo Flute
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute »

RSR:

As long as notations are simple to understood and accepted by most, any notation set would do. If you want to use the HM notation, then ragas like kaNakAngi or rasikapriya can be problematic since you would have two "r"s and two "d"s or two "g"s and two "n"s. This can cause some confusion. How would you sing the svarAms? HM never had ragams like nATai or varALi to deal with and their notation system follows their raga databank.

There are no subtle frequency discrepancies, if that is one of your questions. As we know, in both forms of classical music, there are subtle shades of each of the notes above (except of course for sa and pa), bringing the division of the octave into something more like 22 notes rather than 12. Imagine having a melakarta scheme with 22 svarAs rather than 12!

sureshvv
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by sureshvv »

vasanthakokilam wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 21:48 Joking aside, the syntactic compression offered by the melakartha number has practical benefits. Among the people who are well versed in that numbering scheme and what they represent, you save a lot of breath in referring to melas in discussions.
Agree. It is a time saver in discussions. And better to have short discussions inside the concert hall!

What I was trying to address was that somehow this made the system "superior". Just having a mela system does not make the music any better :D

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by vasanthakokilam »

sureshvv wrote: 20 Feb 2018, 09:19 What I was trying to address was that somehow this made the system "superior". Just having a mela system does not make the music any better :D
The latter statement is most definitely true. About the first statement, it is a mixed bag. I think calling the melakarta scheme a superior meta theory of music is defensible given its coverage, symmetry and uniformity.
If ever anyone talks of aesthetics of music theory, the mela system will definitely be in the top few.

While it does not make the music better, it has definitely contributed to the source material for composers.

The negative is also contributed by its strength. As you suggest, people sometimes conflate a superior musicological framework into the merits of the music itself. More over, the syntactic excellence may make people claim a disproportionate scholarship in music knowledge itself.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

Vayoo Flute » 20 Feb 2018, 05:59
As long as notations are simple to understood and accepted by most, any notation set would do. If you want to use the HM notation, then ragas like kaNakAngi or rasikapriya can be problematic since you would have two "r"s and two "d"s or two "g"s and two "n"s.
Respected Sir, ..why any confusion? They will be written as R1,R2 , G1,G2 etc .though it 'violates' that a sampoorna rahgam should not have two R's etc in seccession. Can we say that in none of the ten 'thaats of HM ', such a pattern occurs? could it be the reason, that they are sweeter? ( not arguing , but just gathering experts' advice)
There are no subtle frequency discrepancies, if that is one of your questions. As we know, in both forms of classical music, there are subtle shades of each of the notes above (except of course for sa and pa), bringing the division of the octave into something more like 22 notes rather than 12. Imagine having a melakarta scheme with 22 svarAs rather than 12!
Very true. But then, how does a musician, ( especially, a harmonium or even veena player , get to know and play the ragam correctly from just notation, which uses only 12 notes? A read a nice article recently.
http://www.22shruti.com/research_topic_38.asp
The article states that there ARE subtle differences in ferequencies.
It is an image. I am sharing it in my next post for your esteemed comment.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

Image

sureshvv
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by sureshvv »

vasanthakokilam wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 21:37

But the invention of R3, G1, D3, N1 is a stroke of genius to bring all the known melodic forms under a uniform framework. But there is always an opportunity cost for any decision. In this case that opportunity cost is simplicity. Those additions made the system more complex but it can be understood with a few hours of reading material that is clearly written.
There is another cost as well. Which is the loss/atrophy of raganga ragas. The straight jacket of the melakarta system has cannibalized many of those ragas,

Vayoo Flute
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute »

RSR:

Forget the harmonium. It is inaccurate with even just using the 12 note octave divide. It generally uses the equal temperament division of the octave as in Western music. That is why the harmonium player can change to different shrutis by means of a slide mechanism, just as a piano player can shift to another key easily. While the harmonium has had its success in bhajans and light music, it is totally inappropriate for Indian classical music. Apart from the shruti inaccuracies, it is not possible to produce the various types of gamakams.

The veena is quite another cup of tea. It is not just the frets that determine the shruti. The downward pressure applied on the strings and the lateral pull on the strings are used to subtly vary the shruti. Ultimately, it is the raaga bhava and the ear that guides one to make the right selection of each quarter note.

More on the 22 notes in a separate post.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

@36. VF SIR, People seem to be innovating all the time. I agree with you regarding the old Harmonium. but there is a new arrival- 22 shruthi harmanium. " This patented instrument is the 1st and only Harmonium in the world capable of playing 22 Shrutis.The harmonium has sets of accurately pre-tuned top quality reeds with a simple and special device to select the desired Shrutis required in a Raga.The underlying fundamental mathematical principles generating 22 Shrutis have been explained in depth, in the 22 Shruti Research section of this website.UNIQUENESS OF THE 22 SHRUTI HARMONIUM
The 22-Shruti-Harmonium has eradicated the Equitempered notes from the traditional Harmonium replacing them with Indian 22 Shrutis. This Harmonium provides accurately 22 Shrutis in Shadja, Pancham and Madhyam."http://www.22shruti.com/22_shruti_harmonium.asp
And the same site speaks of the 22 shruthi veeNa project! ( continuing..)

---

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

1) All that I want to know is whether it is permissible to follow s r1 r2 g1 g2 m1 m2 p d1 d2 n1 n2 S representation uniformly for both HM and CM ragams whether thaat or meLakartha and even for other janya ragams. It will be easier to visualize as many sites give the harmonium key images for ragams.
2) whether we are playing the ragam/song in instruments or singing, there need be no difficulty unless we are mentioning the swaram. Let us just sing . Perhaps we can avoid such ragams for swaraprastharam in vocal.( I may not be using the correct terminology). 3) I dont see why we should know the janaka scale to appreciate and enjoy the ragam. 4) Likewise, all this talk of 'morning ragam' and such, seems pointless. Considering the primeslot concerts in our music sabhas, are the artistes following the morning-evening-night pattern in choosing the ragams for the concert? If we happen to listen to Radio concerts, would this rule apply? Just thinking loud. and requesting clarifications.

Vayoo Flute
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute »

The 22-shruti harmonium is interesting. The chords certainly sound better on it than the standard equi-tempered ones. A major disadvantage, though, is that you need a separate harmonium for each shruti of SA. You cannot just take one such harmonium and use it to accompany different singers using varying SA shrutis. You still have the problem of not being able to play gamakams properly, since the notes are discrete.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

one more point.... The ten thaat system was not invented by the author. He toured all over the country where HM is practiced for many generations as an oral tradition and came out with the scheme to include all the derived and original HM ragams. That raises the question... Instinctively, the HM system has avoided all of the 72 of CM janakaragams except those 10. Now my exercise is to similarly take only those ten janakarahgams in CM too and list all the janya ragams said to be based on them ( by what criterion?).. I find that these ten are base for great many enchanting ragams in CM. Am I right is surmising that famous artistes like Smt.MS chose ragams from these ten thaats only , repeatedly, for some reason? Late Sri.Venkatakailasam has supplied a list of about 300 songs in her repertoire and am analyzing her choice on this basis. Wrong premise?

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

@39> VF Sir, Agreed. Good point.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by vasanthakokilam »

RSR, I think we are using way too many words to get to the crux of the point in answering your original question. If you are talking about Non-vidadhi ragas, then the HM notational system is fine. But if you use that for vivadi ragas, as VF and I have stated, kalpanaswaras will be confusing, for example singing'Ri' in two different frequencies will be odd. So it does not work for that. That is about it.

Mentally, for non-vivadhi ragas which are the main ragas in vogue, you can use the informal terminology even CM people will definitely relate to, 'Chinna' (smaller) and 'Periya'(bigger or higher).

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by vasanthakokilam »

About what the Thaats cover and not cover.
There are 8 'tonal complexes' in CM. As I wrote before, think of them from a CM perspective as 'Thodi complex', 'MMG complex', 'KHP complex', "SB complex" and the four Pratimadyamam buddies of these four. CM covers all of these completely and more than adequately.
The 10 Thaat system covers 7 of the 8. What it does not expose as a separate Thaat is the Pratimadyama buddy of the KHP complex, namely Shanmukhapriya-Simendramadyamam-Hemavathi-Darmavathi.

It is quite possible that ragas of that ilk were not in practice in HM and that is why Prof. Bhatkande did not create a Thaat for it.
You can see HM musicians adopting now some of the ragas from this complex in their own unique way, especially Simhendramadyamam.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by vasanthakokilam »

sureshvv wrote: 20 Feb 2018, 15:12
vasanthakokilam wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 21:37

But the invention of R3, G1, D3, N1 is a stroke of genius to bring all the known melodic forms under a uniform framework. But there is always an opportunity cost for any decision. In this case that opportunity cost is simplicity. Those additions made the system more complex but it can be understood with a few hours of reading material that is clearly written.
There is another cost as well. Which is the loss/atrophy of raganga ragas. The straight jacket of the melakarta system has cannibalized many of those ragas,
Please elaborate on the raganga ragas. Were they in vogue in CM? Thx

sureshvv
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by sureshvv »

vasanthakokilam wrote: 20 Feb 2018, 23:12 Please elaborate on the raganga ragas. Were they in vogue in CM? Thx
aka the asampoorna melakarta paddhati followed by the Dikshitar school. The melakartas are more nuanced. G.Ravikiran gave a two part presentation on these at Raga Sudha not long ago. It may be on parivadini.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

Sri.V.K,
What it does not expose as a separate Thaat is the Pratimadyama buddy of the KHP complex, namely Shanmukhapriya-Simendramadyamam-Hemavathi-Darmavathi.
... I agree. It is a huge loss for HM not to have included lovely ragams like Shanmugapriya and Simmendra madhyamam. and Dharmavathi

sureshvv
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by sureshvv »

Huge opportunity for current and future HM artistes.

shankarank
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by shankarank »

The reference to kAfi thAAT ( Quoting from TNS Gita Govindam discourse) it seems occurs in candana carcita 4th AshTapati.

pacama rAgam - kApi

http://www.karnatik.com/c2621.shtml

pancama - cycle of 5ths starting with g2 - n2 - m1 - s - p - r2 - d2

Just heard it - and it is mostly in use as miSra kafi . There seems to be a kAfi rendition : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzdxHsZ8INM , but very ocassionally - I heard a reach into G3. Some comments say miSra kafi. It has shades similar to sAlaka Bhairavi or kaRNa ranjani.

And here - he does use N3 sometimes. This is published as miSra kafi. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdG5Uwwly9A

So the kAfi thAAt is only taught looks like, thoughts on it make it something else!

Karaharapriya was also recommended for teaching once ;)

Vayoo Flute
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute »

Ever wondered why mayamalagowlam is used for beginning lessons?

My thesis is as follows:

Sa and Pa are automatic. Our ears like to hear frequencies that are simple fractions when relating one note to another. To the base Sa, Pa is of course 3/2. Next simple fraction is 4/3. That is our suddha ma. Next is 5/4. This is antara Ga. Apart from Sa and Pa, the tambura/ shruti box coordinates very well with this Ga and Ma precisely because of this reason. For beginning students, it is easier to take notes that are only a half-note distant from the main resting notes, Sa and Pa. The Ri and Ni are stretches from the Sa, up and down respectively. These notes are invariably played as jaaru or kampitam starting from Sa. The Da is played in similar fashion from Pa. Chatusrati Ri or Da, being further away from the resting notes, are more likely to suffer from inaccuracies by the beginning student. Thus you have Mela 15.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

Went through this pdf last night and found it to be very good.

abstract
comaparative study of hindustani and carnatic ragas
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j ... -2ypa9DFTE

Vayoo Flute
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute »

RSR wrote: 26 Feb 2018, 16:20 Went through this pdf last night and found it to be very good.

abstract
comaparative study of hindustani and carnatic ragas
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j ... -2ypa9DFTE
Quite frankly, I did not find anything new in the abstract. There is also much to be desired in the English - some parts were quite confusing and disjointed. Perhaps the original was in Hindi or some other language and this abstract is only a translation.

The article describes the Hindustani system as based on 12 swaras and the Carnatic on 16 swaras. I think this is misleading. Carnatic classification is also based on 12 swaras but offers more permutations and combinations. It is not as if the octave is divided into 16 notes.

Regarding the Muslim influence, let us not try to be politically correct here. True, new instruments and new melodies were brought in and enriched Hindustani music. Let us also not forget the massive suppression of musical evolvement that took place as a result of the destruction of most of the temples, which served as centers of cultural meetings and exchanges of ideas. South India, which was largely spared of these atrocities, saw its classical music evolve by leaps and bounds during the same period.

Another major deficiency in this research is that it fails to mention the role of compositions. The elaborate and intricate work of the great Carnatic composers had a profound impact on the evolution of Carnatic music.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

@51-> Respected VF Sir, Your comment does not refer to the PDF. Just now re-read again. Please do. It is a 300 page R&D paper with profuse references. I cannot say that I have assimilated everything in this abstract. It is huge but enlightening. I intend taking a print out and use it for comparative study of CM and HM. or rather study of CM from HM perspective.. The abstract does give good references to CM composers at later part of the work. As a devout follower of Smt MSS, not only in her music but in her values as well, I cannot share your views on HM. Excuse me.

Vayoo Flute
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute »

Shree RSRji: I confess I only read the abstract and my comments are restricted to only that. When I have more time I will read the full paper. The abstract does not mention any of the things I critiqued as missing, such as the influence of the composers, which could very well be in the full document. I did not realize that you were the author of the abstract, and I do apologize for roughing up any feathers.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

@53-> Sri.VF wrote
I did not realize that you were the author of the abstract, and I do apologize for roughing up any feathers.
--------------------------
Respected VF Sir,
How I wish that I had the scholarly equipment even to attempt such an abstract!. No, Sir. I am just quoting .
------------------------ The chapters are from the thesis as placed in web by ShodhGanga. in PDF form. ........When we google for some topics, we get these pdf docs . ( on classical music, history, socio-political events of the past,,,which I have downloaded and read occasionally.) Being in pdf format, it is not esay to share except by way of links. ...hence inevitably fragmentary. Hence, the wrong impressions....
I would very much like to quote a few lines about 'ShodhGanga' institution.
=======================================================================
"Shodhganga: a reservoir of Indian Theses

"Shodhganga" is the name coined to denote digital repository of Indian Electronic Theses and Dissertations set-up by the INFLIBNET Centre. The word "Shodh" originates from Sanskrit and stands for research and discovery. The "Ganga" is the holiest, largest and longest of all rivers in Indian subcontinent. The Ganga is the symbol of India's age-long culture and civilization, everchanging, ever-flowing, ever-loved and revered by its people, and has held India's heart captive and drawn uncounted millions to her banks since the dawn of history. Shodhganga stands for the reservoir of Indian intellectual output stored in a repository hosted and maintained by the INFLIBNET Centre.

The Shodhganga@INFLIBNET is set-up using an open source digital repository software called DSpace developed by MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) in partnership between Hewlett- Packard (HP). The DSpace uses internationally recognized protocols and interoperability standards. Shodhganga provides a platform for research scholars to deposit their Ph.D. theses and make it available to the entire scholarly community in open access. The repository has the ability to capture, index, store, disseminate and preserve ETDs (Electronic Theses and Dissertations) submitted by the researchers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/
http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/
===========================================================================================
It is a huge repository. I do not think, they give the author's names for the documents. May be I have to explore.
I am downloading in parts and reading them when time permits.
The book under discussion is very fair. and informative. Could surely be improved by more precise notation. About that in another post soon.

Vayoo Flute
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute »

Shri RSR, thank you for introducing me to the shodhganga sites. I will surely look into them as time permits.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vayoo Flute wrote: 26 Feb 2018, 06:02 Ever wondered why mayamalagowlam is used for beginning lessons?

My thesis is as follows:

Sa and Pa are automatic. Our ears like to hear frequencies that are simple fractions when relating one note to another. To the base Sa, Pa is of course 3/2. Next simple fraction is 4/3. That is our suddha ma. Next is 5/4. This is antara Ga. Apart from Sa and Pa, the tambura/ shruti box coordinates very well with this Ga and Ma precisely because of this reason. For beginning students, it is easier to take notes that are only a half-note distant from the main resting notes, Sa and Pa. The Ri and Ni are stretches from the Sa, up and down respectively. These notes are invariably played as jaaru or kampitam starting from Sa. The Da is played in similar fashion from Pa. Chatusrati Ri or Da, being further away from the resting notes, are more likely to suffer from inaccuracies by the beginning student. Thus you have Mela 15.
S, G3, M1, P is right on.

But about Ri and Da, I am not really sure that the choice of MMG is because it is easier for the students.

I have two anecdotes. In my own case, when learning the flute, it is difficult as such to get a good tone consistently and opening the hole half way was an added burden. My Guru asked me to practice with HK swarasthanas first. Then we moved on to MMG. OK, that is with instruments but what about vocal? Smt. Vedavalli in her humorous way talks about how beginning students can't sing R1 properly when sung as part of a sequence of swaras, especially in Avarohanam. They will either sing it as S or some where close to R2 when corrected. The issue is, in Avarohanam, the gap between G3 to R1 is quite large and when jumping over such a gap, they overshoot or undershoot.

Thodi, MMG, KHP and SB all have the nice property that the lower and upper tetrachord are symmetric. ( the S-M, P-S symmetry ). So they all qualify on that ground as potential choices for beginners. Thodi may be too complicated for beginners. That leaves SB and KHP. SB is a natural scale universally and that is a much better choice IMHO. So for scale based practices, I think the order for beginners can be SB, KHP and then MMG and then one can move on to the wonderful gitams in Malahari.

But I do grant that, while the danger of going off the rails is high, a bunch of students singing together the Varisais in MMG correctly sound great to the ears.

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute »

Yes, that is the standard way the flute is taught to beginners.

I have a different opinion on this. If a student practices all the initial exercises first in HK, his hands and fingers will be positioned to facilitate the complete opening and closing of the tone holes. He may then have difficulty in adjusting his set ways to accommodate partial closures. As we know, the position of the tone hole is only a guide to producing the right shruti. So many more factors are involved: strength of blowing, angle of attack, how hard you press the blow hole on the lips, etc. The student should learn to treat the flute as a continuous instrument, much like a violin. This will make the initial lessons more difficult but a more solid foundation will be laid. It will also make the student more shruti conscious and he will be less dependent on the accuracy of the tone hole placement. This is very important for an imperfect instrument like the flute (invariably, the adjustments that are needed for the higher octave notes will be different to the adjustments for the lower octave notes).

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

It is always easier to learn the basics of CM through a VeeNa. because of the arrangement of the frets.
---
http://www.carnaticdarbar.com/views_01.htm
Reverting back to HM Thaats, I found this blog interesting. though in a direction opposite to mine. I feel that excluding the vivadi scales (40 in number) , we are left with 32 only. as sampoorna ragams. The lines that I found particularly to my liking ..." It will also be evident that even out of the 40 Vivadi ragas only a dozen or so have popular kritis in them. ". So, why not limit the CM scales to say around 18, ( which 18?.. by examining the sweetness of the ragams already existing in them).. and adopt uniform method of notation? .

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute »

RSR wrote: 28 Feb 2018, 22:58 It is always easier to learn the basics of CM through a VeeNa. because of the arrangement of the frets.
---
http://www.carnaticdarbar.com/views_01.htm
Reverting back to HM Thaats, I found this blog interesting. though in a direction opposite to mine. I feel that excluding the vivadi scales (40 in number) , we are left with 32 only. as sampoorna ragams. The lines that I found particularly to my liking ..." It will also be evident that even out of the 40 Vivadi ragas only a dozen or so have popular kritis in them. ". So, why not limit the CM scales to say around 18, ( which 18?.. by examining the sweetness of the ragams already existing in them).. and adopt uniform method of notation? .
Shri RSR:

Let us remember our school chemistry and what happened in the classification of elements. Mendeleev, around the middle of the 19th century, came up with a classification scheme of elements based on the then known elements. The classification scheme had a lot of holes, that is, elements suspected of existing but not yet discovered but with predictable properties. Mendeleev's list accelerated the search for new elements which, as predicted, were found. I view the 17th century melakarta scheme in a similar way. The scheme encouraged composers to compose on ragas and scales not hitherto tried. There are still plenty of opportunities to further explore rarely sung scales. Your "sweetness" is relative to the times it is applied to. A scale may not sound sweet to you today, but if sufficient compositions are developed and made popular by creative musicians,it will start sounding sweet to you.

So why limit the 72 scales? Often, theory precedes practice (as in the case of the Periodic Table). In fact why not expand to a 108 melakarta scheme in which the last 36 omit the panchamam but has both madhayamams. This will enable better classification of certain ragas that take the two MAs.

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 20 Feb 2018, 13:53
Vayoo Flute » 20 Feb 2018, 05:59
As long as notations are simple to understood and accepted by most, any notation set would do. If you want to use the HM notation, then ragas like kaNakAngi or rasikapriya can be problematic since you would have two "r"s and two "d"s or two "g"s and two "n"s.
Respected Sir, ..why any confusion? They will be written as R1,R2 , G1,G2 etc .though it 'violates' that a sampoorna rahgam should not have two R's etc in seccession.
The premise of the melakartas is not as complicated as what you describe. It is much simpler, and flawless, avoiding any confusion. The premise of the sampoorna raga is that all seven swaras are to be present, and given a ri, ga should be a higher tone and given a dha, ni should be higher. So in that air-tight logic, r1, r2 or g1,g2 would be impossible.

Using hm notation is not preferred not only because the katapayadi nomenclature and numbering system is easier in detailed discussions of CM, but also because having multiple ri and ga as you describe will make writing and reading notations impossibly hard, and not worth the trouble, slowing down the music in the learning stages (of a kriti) with absolutely no benefit. The logic does not make music better, but streamlines communication and learning, which IS a great benefit. To a certain extent, it does mKe the music better, as it offers the possibility of using or circumventing dissonance within a raga.

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

I came to this thread to find an answer to a question about thaats that I asked in another thread here.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=30873&p=331641#p331625

I was reading this thread in its initial days, but it has grown so much!! I did not find the answer in any of the shodhganga links here, but more googling using new terms gleaned from one of these shodhganga PDFs gave me a link to a different shodhganga PDF that answered my question.

This is the answer I found (the emphasis by underlining is mine):
(...) a Thaat in Hindustani music cannot be sung, it only show the scale. The raag swarup and swar vistaar in a raag is explored through an Ashray raag (Ahsray raagas are born out of Thaatas, the janya raagas which are named after their Thaat are called Ashray ragas, Eg: S R G M P D N S indicates that it belongs to Bhairav Thaat. This BhairavThaat gives birth to raag Bhairav which has similar swara.)

Where as Carnatic Melakartas can be sung. There are many Kritis and Keertanas in Melakarta raagas.
So it seems Bilawal is a conceptual entity as a thaat and Bilawal raag belongs to this thaat and can be sung and explored. Going by what I found of Asavari thaat and the Asavari raag, the Ashray raag does not necessarily have the all the swaras of its thaat scale, but may also just have a subset of the thaat's swaras.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 13 Mar 2018, 12:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

PS: 😊Love the certainly intended pun in the topic of this thread! Does one have to be at least a Kannada lover to catch it?

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

Ranganayaki
» 13 Mar 2018, 10:58
@60-> Ranganayaki-> I am not a total stranger to orthodox CM. My mother and all my aunts played VeeNa, not for stage concert but at home. All my eleven cousin sisters were trained in CM and were very good vocalists. Again, not for concert...Though I had no formal training, I had exposure to orthodox CM due to family environment. Later I learned to play an HM bow instrument with frets fairly well, just for personal experience and experimentation. Could not pursue it due to other pressing ,professional preoccupations . I have read the usual texts on music by Prof.Sambamurtyhy and SubbaRao. ----- I am a devout fan of Smt.MS, Smt.DKP and Smt.NCV. .. I have created websites for their immortal songs. . My stand is that
a) we can give the arohanam and avarohanam of all CM ragams in the same pattern as done by HM. ( S r R g G m M P d D n N S'). Nothing is lost and it makes understanding the notation easier. HM does not have gamakam, true, but , none the less captivating and mellifluous.
b) I hold that the songs rendered by the above mentioned vocalists are so wonderful, because most of them are in the 10 scales common to CM and HM.
I find that attaching a janya ragam to this or that janaka ragam is a bit arbitrary and not really necessary. ( I have a famous fusion instrumentalist who has the same view). Each ragam has its own soul and it cannot be really captured and passed on by giving the ascending and descending notes.
I am now preparing a list of nearly 200 songs rendered by Smt.MS and Smt.DKP and trying to findout if their ragams do not falll predominantly within the ten thats of HM.
Commonly known CM ragams cannot be more than 200. I think, it is enough if the rasikas know to more or less correctly identify these 200 ragams . and concentrate more on best kruthi rendering in those ragams.
c) kruthis , even if from the same composer, same ragam , are not uniformly good. Much depends on the lyrics, singer and rendering with bhaavam.
I am not a musicologist.
Can you give me the janaka ragam if I give the name of these 200 ragams? ( I will give the list). We can collaborate and create a website for this and give links to the best songs of the three above vocalists , in each ragam. That would help.
Thank you.
Last edited by RSR on 13 Mar 2018, 12:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 13 Mar 2018, 12:04
Ranganayaki
» 13 Mar 2018, 10:58
@60-> Ranganayaki-> I am not a total stranger to orthodox CM.

....
Can you give me the janaka ragam if I give the name of thsee 200 ragams? That would help.
Thank you.
I did not say or imply that you are a stranger to "orthodox CM!" You asked a question or said something and I gave you my thoughts, because I was not in agreement. I don't know anything about you, except that I surmise that you are an experienced listener.

Regarding your question in color, there are many online resources that you can look at with a simple search and find tool to find the janaka raga of a lot of named janyas. I'm not keen on spending time on that, if you don't mind.

Thank you for the Shodhganga lead which helped in clarifying the concept of "Thaat" a little for me.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 13 Mar 2018, 12:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

Vayoo Flute wrote: 26 Feb 2018, 20:09 [

The article describes the Hindustani system as based on 12 swaras and the Carnatic on 16 swaras. I think this is misleading. Carnatic classification is also based on 12 swaras but offers more permutations and combinations. It is not as if the octave is divided into 16 notes.
Yes, it is only 12 swaras, the same as in HM that lead to the 72 ragas. I think the distinction is made between swaras and swarasthanas. HM has 12 distinct swaras with their distinct swarasthanas, while CM has the same 12 distinct swaras with 16 occasionally overlapping swarasthanas.

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

Vayoo Flute wrote: 26 Feb 2018, 20:09
The elaborate and intricate work of the great Carnatic composers had a profound impact on the evolution of Carnatic music.
This is interesting when considered against the role of compositions in hm concerts. I could be wrong but compositions are incidental in hm, and are often used like pallavis in improvisation. But in CM, poetic compositions are Also musically notated and raga swaroopa develops organically, with singers' distinct styles and banis adding to the body of the ragas, along with the compositions and their own phraseology and no raga has a static, set form that cannot evolve. The scale details are a framework of reference, though.

With so much prescriptive description of ragas in HM, I wonder if HM ragas are static, or do they evolve? Have they evolved?

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

@64-> Ranganayaki->
while CM has the same 12 distinct swaras with 16 occasionally overlapping swarasthanas.
How do we write down the 22 overlapping swarasthanams? By practice and hearing only. Not by notation.
------------------------------------------
simple search and find tool to find the janaka raga of a lot of named janyas.

I do spend a lot of time in googling.Not infrequently, many who mention about janaka ragam for a particular janya ragam , also mention that the janya ragam can be thought to be derived from some other scale as well.
I found this shodhganga thesis very informative. It is not a single downloadable pdf and is copy-right material.
What you found after so much search is very simply stated in this series of articles.
http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/handle/10603/127475
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I had given the link to the abstract only. The actual chapters are very nice.

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR, are we in an argument? Not as far as I know. I responded to a few posts that interested me. Regarding the 12 vs 16 swarasthanas, I was commenting on vayoo flute's post. I only wanted to add that there aren't 16 swaras but 16 swarasthanas. I was adding info and it had nothing to do with notation or how to write them, and I'm not sure why you are responding to me about notation. I mentioned notation in another context, and you are welcome to your views.

I was very grateful for the shodhganga link and i understood that it must be a whole lot of pdfs. I thanked you and didn't criticize it. I actually got an answer to my question which is not to be found anywhere else.

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

@68-> RN-> Not at all. Just trying to see if I have missed something. As I said, I am trying to present CM ragams to a HM fan , in an idiom that he is familiar with. Secondly, to buttress my perception that HM scales are inherently sweet, though I do not know why. ( I can hear murmurs, about 'sweet' etc being subjective..May be) If I am able to see that most of the songs by my Trinity ( MS,DKP,NCV) have sung in these 10 scales , common to HM and CM, my purpose will be served. How can I 'show' the swarasthanams ,in print? A genuine doubt. Not argument.

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

I made a mistake.

HM: 7 swaras, 12 distinct swarasthanas. Apart from sa and pa which are fixed, all the other swaras have 2 swarasthanas each.

CM: 7 swaras, 16 sometimes overlapping swarasthanas. Ri, ga, dha and ni have three swarasthanas each that may overlap, and ma has two.

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 13 Mar 2018, 22:12 @68-> RN-> How can I 'show' the swarasthanams ,in print? A genuine doubt. Not argument.
Since it is a genuine question, I will try to answer, but you may not like it.

The sapta swaras are set in stone. A sampoorna raga HAS to have 7 distinct swaras, no more, no less. The GA HAS TO BE HIGHER THAN THE RI. Without the 16 swarasthanas, you cannot have the melakartas system of classification. Without calling it r-1,2,3 or dha-1,2,3 (for example), you cannot have the chakras or the neat progression of the ragas within a chakra. The neat, elegant logic of the chakras will be lost if you had to name the swaras in the HM WAY.

Without this system, you cannot sing Vivadi swaras. There will be no possibility for a raga like Ganamurthi. This is exactly the situation in HM. If you name the swarasthanas in the HM way,Ganamurthi's arohana would br S R1 R2 M P D1 N2 S. Impossible. Ganamurthi's non-existence in HM will be carried over into CM! How do you think it will fit in the melakartas chart? Or if you push it, you will be notating all the ga of current Ganamurthi as r2, with its current Ri as R1. Now your students will have to slow down and figure out each ri, and you can only hope they won't get frustrated.

So your only option is to use the currently existing system. In this you only specify the arohana-avarohana (with swarasthanas) at the top of the page and proceed to notate the song normally. Otherwise you will destroy the whole logic of CM and then you will have intuitive music. But that will require everyone to be willing to follow you (your lead)

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Sachi_R »

I feel the approach of the 22 shruti scale is the best. I wish someone maps/shares a map to play Carnatic scales on the online 22 Shruti player.
Image

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

Ranganayaki » 14 Mar 2018, 07:04
HM: 7 swaras, 12 distinct swarasthanas. Apart from sa and pa which are fixed, all the other swaras have 2 swarasthanas each.CM: 7 swaras, 16 sometimes overlapping swarasthanas. Ri, ga, dha and ni have three swarasthanas each that may overlap, and ma has two.
-----------------------------------------
I know about that. I repeat, ..
Image
R3=G1; G3=G2; D3=N1, N3=N2
.I exclude all the 46 janaka ragams that need breaking the rule.
That leaves us with 26 janaka ragams only. which follow the rule strictly.
HM makes use of only 10 of them.
HM can perhaps add a few more from the left-out 16 janaja ragams .
* That will bring some nice ragams from CM to HM'
But, if we analyze the CM ragams usually composed and sung, we will find that quite a few of the janaka ragams and derivatives are lacking in musicality. Except some musicians who intentionally choose such ragams just to be different from the 'crowd'. I am prteparing a detailed chart with illustrative kruthis and mp3's.
( I read somewhere that brothers of Saint Thyagaraja, burnt quite a few experimental kruthis of the saint as they broke the rule. Good work! )
-----------------------
To put it simply, there are only 12 swarams and swarasthanams that can be written down.
They are S r R g G m M P d D n N S
S = Shadjama
R1 = Shudhdha Rishabha
R2 = Chathushruthi Rishabha
R3 = Sathshruthi Rishabha
G1 = Shudhdha Gandhara
G2 = Sadharana Gandhara
G3 = Anthara Gandhara
M1 = Shudhdha Madhyama
M2 = Prathi Madhyama
P = Panchama
D1 = Shudhdha Daivatha
D2 = Chathushruthi Daivatha
D3 = Sathshruthi Daivatha
N1 = Shudhdha Nishadha
N2 = Kaishika Nishadha
N3 = Kaakali Nishadha

===================================================================================
From this, your subsequent explanation, becomes unnecessary. No offense meant.
( in the hope that it would be taken in right spirit, I read all the preceding posts in a thread, before I post a comment either requesting clarification or offering a different view).

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sachi_R wrote: 14 Mar 2018, 08:43 I feel the approach of the 22 shruti scale is the best. I wish someone maps/shares a map to play Carnatic scales on the online 22 Shruti player.
Image
What exactly do you mean, RSachi? The 22 Sruthis are merely described, in the practice of Carnatic music.. we fix a swarasthana and we observe that in reality the singing involves a range of frequencies for each sthana and this is brought about by gamaka which is at the heart of this music. So are you saying that we have to notate 22 swarasthanas? I don't agree. This is the practice of music, this is the level at which intuition and personal style work to create the effects. If you notate those, it becomes very systematic, of course, but the soul is lost and there is no scope for individuality. Plus the meaning of gamaka is lost. You can't have 22 swarasthanas AND gamaka, you will have a far more sensitive ear but nothing from the "heart." And the notes will be flat.

Or have I misunderstood what you meant, and I'm missing something?

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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Sachi_R »

For me the 22 shruti scale of Dr Oke brings a common ground to map the "scales" of HM and CM.
Gamakas define ragas, and we need to move beyond the scale. But the melakarta scheme is scale based, and that's the current discussion.
Mr Vinayakam has created a gamaka "box" notation that maps Carnatic gamakas. This was discussed some time ago.
I feel the 22 shruti scale implementable in CM combined with the gamaka box will meet many needs.

I am not a musician and cannot add much value to a detailed discussion here. Sorry.

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