ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Classical Music of North India
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RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by RSR »

Sri.Kulkarniji, this is a special request to you . I am obsessed with this quest for many years. There are 16 songs in Meera (Hindi-1947). I know all the tunes by heart for many decades now but I dont know much about Classical Hindusthani music. However, the music score was by S.V.Venkataraman, who had familiarity with Hindusthani ragams. common to both Southern and Northern systems. . I had tried various forums for the information but they always say, that film music is always a mixture. Atleast as far as these songs are concerned, I dont think it is so. I could hazard a conjecture 1) Murali Mohana-Kafi 2) Hari Aavan ki avaz ( ?) 3) Baso more nainan me ( Yaman (kalyani in CM?) 4) Ghan Shyam Aayare (?)
5) Giridhara Gopala( Mohanam in CM) 6) Brundhaavana Kunj bavana ( Piloo?) lovely song 7) Chakar rako ji (?)
8) Hey Hare Dhayala ( pathadheep?) somebody told me -9) Pag ghungru re (?) 10) Maiyn Hari Charan ki dhasi (?) what a lovely song! 11) Hum ne sune Hari (?) 12) More tho giridhara gopala (?)13) Daras Bina -ragamalaika ( bagesree, desh, paraj) (?)14) yaadh aavae Brundhavana (sindhubairavi) 15)kunjana vana chadi (?) 16) climax song ..suno meri manvyaadh
For convenience, I have given all the songs as mp4 in the following page. I am sure that you can easily detect the exact ragam in a flash with your long experience in hard-core HM. . Kindly help.
https://sites.google.com/site/meera1947 ... les-as-mp4

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by varsha »

RSR
I will try , but your idea of me as an expert is misplaced . I am not knowledgeable in these matters , never studied music . Cant even identify a note by its name. My style is good old kAnsen phrase-mapping style.
Having said this much , your requeests are not as straightforward as in CM. Hindi film music directors used the ability to give kaleidoscopic colors to songs in a way few have done in CM. That is largely due to our conditioned way of relating to ragas in CM.

A term you use is mixture . Yes there are mixtures even in HM , like it happens in jod ragas like say chaya hindol , or the many strains that attach themselves to malhars / bahar .Or even the dalliance in different zones of similar scales ( marwa - sohini, bhopali-deshkar-shudh kalyan). Or the nuanced way of bagesri ang ki chandrakauns or a desh ang ki jaijaiwanthi .

I reel of these examples more as an archiver familiar with these terms in print.

You may be glad to know I am as old as one who once prodded srkris into creating this subforum for HM more than a decade ago.
The results have been mixed and that is only because CM is such a more complicated art ( my opinion )- Just Beyond comparison to anything else on the planet .
btw kulkarni / coolkarni / mankuthimma were all my previous ids . There was a phase I used to get angry with the world here ( not anymore ) and quit . And everytime I came back I had to use a new id .
We oldtimers have seen the futility of malice in these quarters . If something looks sarcastic or mean , pl be assured , there was none.Someday we should start a thread on the early days of rasikas.org- the years with Woedyars krithis , never ending virutthams , visits to residences of Somu , DKP , Manakkal , GS Mani , the halcyon days of discovering geniuses like vgovindan and the tireless venkatakailasam and others among our midst .

Cheers
varsha

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by varsha »

Was wondering if Ceinu is reading this and offer to make responses which will be more authentic.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by RSR »

Respected Sir, Thank you. Long long back, I tried to learn HM and play the Dilrubah. Read Subba Rao's book and tried. HM is actually more complicated because, the basic ragas are only about 24 if I remember right from that book but there are so many variations. . that for the untrained, they all sound the same. I hasten to add that I gave up.
So far as these 17 songs are concerned, it may not be that difficult, because it was by S.V.Venkataraman. who would not have ventured to give anything but the purest for MS Amma under the vigilant and scholarly Sri.Sadasivam 's guidance. He would not have taken any liberties with the ragams. When I hear the songs, I see the unity.. You also will see that. and it is enough if you give the nearest carnatic or HM ragam. I will take your word because I know that you will never mislead. No hurry at all. It would be instructive and delightful if you share the phaeses of the song that you found great.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by varsha »

‘mero to giridhar gopal doosaro na koyi’ sung by MS from the cinematic point of view. Not only the singing but picturisation too is very touching. As MS leaves the palace and comes out on the road singing this song, some of devotees prostrate before her. This Meera bhajan was adapted by Pandit Narendra Sharma and set to music by three music directors – S V Venkataraman, G Ramanathan and Naresh Bhattacharya. In the credit title, the acknowledgement has also been given to Dilip Kumar Roy for the music inspiration.
https://atulsongaday.me/2012/04/10/more ... o-na-koyi/

Working on the project.Hitting only walls of yaman , sindhubhairavi most of the time.
So I moved to her concert versions.Happy I did so . she has sung leisurely,often humming at the start.But yes one cant sniff beyond yaman , sindhubhairavi.The purist may insist that behag peeks in.Anyway give me time till diwali is over

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by RSR »

Respected Sir,
Thank you . In the link that you have given,you can see my comment , posted sometime last october! Since then I have managed to get the lyrics and rough translation for all the songs.
Yes. Behag is there. perhaps in Chakar rakoji. ( Are not Kapi(Nandabala) , Pilu 'Brundhaavana kunja bavana' there?). Perhaps Mand or its near cousin in 'Kunjana vana chadi.'? Boop in Giridhara Gopala? ... Maiyn Hari Charan ki dasi is a lovely song.i dont have any clue about its ragam. Has Amma rendered it in any concert? I dont think.
No hurry Sir. I can wait .
Best Regards.
WISHING YOU HAPPY DHEEPAAVALI
RSR

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by varsha »

3) Baso more nainan me ( Yaman (kalyani in CM?)
yaman-hm(kalyani-CM) after starting with hameer
my nearest template for kalyani here
http://www.mediafire.com/file/3woxm9yrr ... eswari.mp3
my template fpr hameer(skating on thin ice
http://www.mediafire.com/file/w8kgflu2w ... ahi_Ho.mp3
14) yaadh aavae Brundhavana (sindhubairavi)
yes.bhairavi-hm(sindhubhairavi-CM)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/x8tzmso57 ... ve-mss.mp3
my template-first minute of
http://www.mediafire.com/file/x8tzmso57 ... ve-mss.mp3
Last edited by varsha on 28 Oct 2016, 07:00, edited 2 times in total.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by varsha »

Happy Diwali to you RSR and all the others.
I am enjoying these new vistas of translation,raga identification
Thanks to you !!!

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by varsha »

I now think of a better expression than mixture
Let us think of it as a kinky grouping
kinky as in
having kinks or twists.
"long and kinky hair"
synonyms: curly, crimped, curled, curling, frizzy, frizzed, wavy, ringletted, ringletty;

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by varsha »

https://www.mediafire.com/?p221c3f5x3p1r85
ghungaroo bandh meera- sindhu bhairavi
not in the film set .but in the straight forward raga mode




Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by Rsachi »

Varsha, RSR, and other fellow-rasikas!
A good book is the precious life-blood of a master spirit, embalmed and treasured up on purpose to a life beyond life.
John Milton
Replace book with music samples, meanings and discussions, and we have rasikas forum, by and large!

Happy Deepaavali to all _/\_

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by varsha »

RS
you made me do this.
slippery ground of classical film music :)
naushad toys with a tough raga
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/ao9y77 ... aki_kanada
Happy Deepaavali to you

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by Rsachi »

Varsha,
I am listening to the MSS Meera songs.
1. Baso More - Sounds like Bihag
2. More To Girdhar Gopal - Sounds like Jinjuti
3.Pyare Darsan - Sounds like Puriya Kalyan
4. Pag Ghunghuroo - sounds like Manj Khamaj
5.Giridhar Gopala - sounds like Bhoop
6. Suno Meri - sounds like Madhmad Sarang

Just tried. Excuse my impertinence.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by varsha »

Yes
I agree .It is getting to be a futile excerise.
These are simply tunes that are a medley of ragas.Swirling around as if in a ball dance
I will try summing up in a different mode

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by Rsachi »

Please do listen to the clips I linked... :D

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by varsha »

5) Giridhara Gopala( Mohanam in CM
Fine
My favourite-no prizes for guessing the choice today
http://www.mediafire.com/file/dddqczzpz ... i_nama.mp3

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by varsha »

Please do listen to the clips I linked..
of course.I liked the link to the blog on learning :D

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by varsha »

summing up
RSR
1.A raga has never been announced for these bhajans.Not in a single concert , label .Not even in radio programs
Who am I a mere.... before the Queen of song
2.http://www.mediafire.com/file/u0bc3nwqf ... 281%29.mp3
first 20 secs shows it is not possible to pin down the song to a raga
3.Further probing will only dilute ones own sense of a raga
4.Most songs show inspirations from numbers of kl saigal , khursheed , jagmohan and jyutika roy(the ultimate name for meeras bhajans)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsnr7Iq ... 72A9680643

I exit with a pointer to a perfect display of desh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k119A1Axtk
An artist who believed that he should perform only his own compositions.
Very similar to the dilruba you once coveted.
youtube is seeing a resurgence in interest in this reclusive shantiniketan product

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by RSR »

varsha ji, Thank you for your precious time. and effort. .. my quest continues. ... Hema Chandra Jain page gives instrumental interludes also. Must be enchanting.
http://hindi-films-songs.com/realmeera47.html
. My query is specifically about the 1947 Meera film songs. as given by him in links. Not about the concert renderings of later years... My direction is different. It is to share how famous CM musicians have used HM ragams common to both ( may be different in name, sometimes). My humble effort , subject to editing ( may not be 100% correct) , at http://sites.google.com/site/hindusthaniragams . You may particularly like items 17,18,19 under Kamaj page. .. Bairavi of HM is said to be close to Hanumath Todi. of CM. Sindhubairavi differs markedly from HM Bairavi. May I have any famous record of yesteryears in Hanumath Todi? Best Regards.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by RSR »

Rsachi Sir, Pyare Dharsan and Hari Thum Haro songs were given by MS in 1947 as a 78 rpm record. Hari Thum Haro was set to music by Pinao Vaidhyanathan, a brilliant scientist, who turned a mystic and ascetic. in Darbari Kanada. I think, Pyare Dhrasan was set to music by S.V.Venkataraman . The ragam is Chandrakauns. Both are Meera bajans but not from film. I have given the song with lyrics got from a web site for bajans.
MS renders the song gloriously.
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... e-dharsana

Your guess about 'Moare tho' may be correct. Hunting for some indication from literally lakhs of MS devotees of those glorious decades when her voice was absolutely sweet. .
Best Regards.

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by Rsachi »

RSR,
Chandrakauns is a pentatonic raga with higher Ni in Hindola. The note Pa never occurs in it. Please investigate if Pyare Darisan can be fitted into that scale.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by RSR »

Rsachi Sir, I will explore from web and if I get any information, will share. Best Regards

latha@music
Posts: 9
Joined: 09 Apr 2017, 15:43

Re: ragam info for the 17 songs by MS in Meera-Hindi(1947)

Post by latha@music »

Why is this forum silent for 1 yr ?
Aawan ki awaz aaj suni main Hari is Peelu.

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