Where South Meets North!

Classical Music of North India
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cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Coolkarni

The ideal meeting place of CM and HM is this territory. I am sure you have a terrific collection of them. Do please introduce us to that tresure-house. And start with a simple one!
BGAK+ ... may do it :D

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

bgak.. jugalbandis were probably not in vogue in his time.at any rate , he had a huge ego to be involved in one .there is an interesting story about the selection of singers for the film baiju bawra.
the climax scene is the duel between tansen and baiju.legend has it that baiju sings a great taan , and thereby melts a rock .he then sticks his tanpura into the molten rock and challenges tansen to sing and extricate the tanpura from the rock which has cooled down.Tansen fails and that is how the story ends.

when approached for the movie, BGAK was offered to sing for tansen , which he flatly refused since tansen was the loser in the duel.However he was considerate enough to offer to get into a real duel.The winner would be projected as baiju in the movie , and the loser as tansen !
That was not to be.Paluskar finally was selected as baiju and amir khan as tansen.

On a serious note, Jugalbandis probably became famous with the ravisankar-ali akbar-alla rakha duets, and then took off with the albums of lalgudi-amjad ali khan.
I will start with the simplest one , tomorrow.
balmurali with kishori amonkar singing nada thanumanisam

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

....awaiting the dawn of the day..

Was Bhaarat Bhushan the original choice for Baiju? I had heard initially Dev Anand was considered! Any way all the songs in the movie are real classics. You should explain some of them elsewhere!

Could you briefly explain the "grammar" of Jugalbandhi as well as the format (i.e., is there a time limit for each etc.,)

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

....awaiting the dawn of the day..
pl wait for the next time the sun comes up.
in the next thread on Mohana-Bhopali-Deshkar-Shudh kalyan

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Thanks coolkarni for the nice introduction and personal recollections. I found the initial nadatanumanism of BMk somewhat insipid being used to his soulful renderings in the CM style. Then I switched off my brain and stopped comparison with CM and started listening to kishori's Yaman. As I was getting lost I felt BMK creeping in seamlessly and though short the piece is soulfully delightful. I realize that jugalbandi requires tremendous control, understanding, imagination and COOPERATION among the artistes. More than that the Rasika has to learn to appreciate the turn of phrases than expect to hear the cliches as we often do in CM :D It is a whole new experience of exploring the unchartered frontiers of the fringes of CM and HM. I am looking forward to the dawn of Bhopali since Mohanam is one of my favourite ragas!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

sounds like chandrakauns to me too!
The high nishaadam stands out!

Lakshman
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Post by Lakshman »

I too find this exactly the same as chandrakauns. ButBMK claims that candrikA is his own innovation.

drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

Yes. BMK is singing candrakauns only. He has "karnatakized" it to candika. A beautiful rendition nonetheless.

Raja Chandra
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Post by Raja Chandra »

cool,

regarding your reference to saMdhyArAga , if my memory serves me right, there was another song- naMbide ninna nAda dEvatayE- which was sung by BMK, BSJ and also s.janaki .

Raja Chandra
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Post by Raja Chandra »

cool,

really cool, it was such a pleasure listening to saMdhyArAga music! thanks

there was another filmi classic of BSJ in some Ananath Nag film -bhAgyada lakshmi bAramma !

do you have that track ?

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

well... i will have to search it out from my tapes.will upload it.
jaywanthi devi has also sung it in a very beautiful rendering.will locate that also.

Lakshman
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Post by Lakshman »

Coolkarni: I would love to have you upload Jayavanti Devi's 78 rpm recordings if you have them. I have been looking for them for a long time. I know her personally but she told me she doesn't have recordings of her own renditions. Thanks.

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

i will follow this up with lots and lots of bhajans from these artists, their most famous tracks on record, sangeeth saritha AIR program on this school etc etc in a separate thread.
I would love it ,if we pick up more stuff about these artists from the net or otherwise

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

rshankar-- there is an excellent article in todays hindu on baul music. nice to know that kerala meets bengal here ..

cpblog
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Post by cpblog »

rshankar wrote:cpblog,

Smt. Lakshmi Shankar (as Kum. Lakshmi Sastry) was also one of the first non-iSai vELALa girls to learn bharatanATyam, and it was as an accomplished dancer that she joined Sri Uday Shankar's troupe, and subsequently married his brother. Her late daughter, Viji was married to the noted violininst, Sri L. Subramanian
Many thanks, RShankar! I somehow had the privilege of meeting this distinguished lady once again, about a decade back, at a concert in the Chinmaya Mission 'Kedar' in Langhorne, Pennsylvania and managed to exchange pleasantries about her 1970 visit.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ravi's comment made me search for info about Smt. Lakshmi Shankar and found this write-up: http://archives.chennaionline.com/colum ... tory17.asp

cpblog
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Post by cpblog »

vasanthakokilam wrote:Ravi's comment made me search for info about Smt. Lakshmi Shankar and found this write-up: http://archives.chennaionline.com/colum ... tory17.asp
VK-ji,

Definitely a very beautiful article and does full justice to her. There are some people in our world (and the world is a finer place because of them) whose beauty inside is also perpetually manifest on their outsides, and she is one such graceful person. Thank you once again for posting this link.

knandago2001
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by knandago2001 »

So what if it rains in Chennai?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuF2H482 ... re=related

Barsan laagi badariya room jhoom ke.. and south meets north!

arasi
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by arasi »

Very good to hear, even though we had plenty of sunshine here today! The images were from north, south, east and west, and they changed so rapidly on the screen that I closed my eyes midway and listened, and it sounded even better!

ganeshkant
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by ganeshkant »

A beautiful rendition catching the right mood . You folks really missed the madhyamAvati - mEgh jugalbandhi a few days before in the Bharat Sangeet Utsav by Shashnak - Sanjeev Abhayankar.It was elevating and transporting you to some eternity.

Nick H
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by Nick H »

The Shashank/Sanjeev concert was extraordinary, and stood out as the high point of the concerts that I attended in that series.

I generally am not attracted to Jugalbandi, for reasons I have typed out many times before, but I've learnt that none of those reasons apply to Shashank's collaborations.

rshankar
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by rshankar »

knandago2001 wrote:So what if it rains in Chennai?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuF2H482 ... re=related
Barsan laagi badariya room jhoom ke.. and south meets north!
Nandagopal, that was absolutely delightful...I have been listeing to it over and over...not that we need any more bArish or snow here...please do keep posting such links!!

knandago2001
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by knandago2001 »

An interesting line up at the ITC sammelan in Kolkata
http://www.itcsra.org/sra_news_views/sr ... undup.html

gobilalitha
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by gobilalitha »

knandgo, Needless to say you will have a wonderful time in the mild winter of Kolkatta . pl enjoy and report

knandago2001
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by knandago2001 »

gobilalita: I attended some of the concerts at the sammelan but forgot take down notes for a report. Be that as it may, I hope you will enjoy listening to this exquisite ragamalika of Carnatic and Hindustani ragas

jaanaati rama tava naama ruchim – Bangalore Shankar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMNC1IsBkZI
Kedaragoula, Desh, Bageshri, Suruti (mangalam)

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Wow! Spellbound!! That is a superb viruththam/slokam rendition by Bangalore Shankar. KG, Desh and Suruti are allied ragas and Sri. Shankar and the flutist Amit Nadig bring out their separate lakshaNams so well.

Is this a prototypical example of proper full throat singing and how to put it to good use? All around great effort, so great to listen.

knandago2001
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by knandago2001 »

VK: It is also the way he intones the gamakas that makes it so pleasing to the ear, even if these ragas are allied entities! http://www.itcsra.org/Raga_online/raga_online.asp If you scroll down to Raag Sorat there is a 7 min clip of Ajoy Chakraborty singing the raga with sargam – makes for very interesting comparisons with Suruti. Enjoy!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Nanagopal, yes indeed. So well done by them. These ragas expose how minimally useful the Aro/Ava Lakshaya is, or even how vacuous they are at times.

I listened to the Sorat a few times. You will have to provide some comparisons. The Sorat seems to have some overlap with Desh in a few places, and it seemed to have an overlap with a few other ragas as well. I heard some overlap with suruti in how AC intoned the 'Ni' in a few places, but I am not good at detecting things at the swara level. Please provide your comparisons.

knandago2001
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by knandago2001 »

VK: Thanks for your feedback - I’ve been listening to more of these ragas since yesterday – here is a sampling that I hope you will enjoy.

Jawad Ali Khan and Mazhar Ali Khan present Raag Sorat in the intimate atmosphere of a mehfil http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yC9vmul ... re=related

Mallikarjun Mansur sings ‘ab har ho bhola naahi bane” – lovely photographs of the maestro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHBVa3Nd ... re=related
A recording of longer duration
http://www.in.com/music/track-ab-har-ho ... 42681.html

The sadharana gandhara is distinct in this bandish presented by Shruti Sadolikar Katkar
http://www.itcsra.org/sra_raga/sra_raga ... aga_id=179

Suruti may have shared origins with Sorat in the distant past; its identity, as now prevalent in CM, is unmistakable.

SR Janakiraman mama sings Suruti for Kalpakam mami
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNso3nYh ... re=related

Semmangudi’s serene Suruti
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUm0Jidt ... re=related


Jawad Ali Khan of the Patiala gharana – Raag Des
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpaVuZwYz9g

Sikkil sisters play “Rama namame” in Desh
http://shadjam.com/?p=425

Tilak Kamod from Mehdi Hasan – Enchanting!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf-9iJxHNb0
I wonder if anyone sung Tilak Kamod in the CM mode?


Some of the theoretical aspects have been discussed in these links
Raga analysis class – HM
http://www.itcsra.org/sra_story/sra_sto ... lysis.html
Raga analysis class – CM
http://www.carnatica.net/newsletter/sur ... letter.htm

mohan
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by mohan »

knandago2001 wrote:An interesting line up at the ITC sammelan in Kolkata
http://www.itcsra.org/sra_news_views/sr ... undup.html
Nice to see some Carnatic musicians featured in Kolkota among some of the greats in Hindustani music. I am wondering what the people in the North think about Carnatic music and whether such concerts are only patronised by South Indian ex-pats?

I think there is general notion (amongst Carnatic rasikas) that South Indians can like and tolerate Hindustani music but the inverse is not always the same! Not sure how true this is.
Last edited by mohan on 24 Nov 2011, 11:11, edited 1 time in total.

varsha
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by varsha »

You can be very sure about that . It decades to even scratch the surface of CM appreciation. And get used to the wandering sruthi and frenzied oscillations of the notes .
CM is simply intimidating to those who are new .
That is its strength when compared to other art forms .
And weakness when it comes to try and popularise it .

varsha
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by varsha »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ENOCPkXdHM
KG Ginde acknowledgea CM s contribution to HM

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Varsha, this is excellent. What a great program. I am not sure how much of CM Vachaspathi swaroopa got transfered into HM but on Vasantha, it is a revelation. I did not know Vasantha got into HM. May be only minimally performed?

Sri. Ginde mentions natanam Adinar and then hums a little flourish of Vasantha and it is spot on CM Vasantha. The HM singer also sings pretty much the CM Vasantha and she does that incredible aakaram singing and Vasantha is so amenable to such singing. (my reference for such delight is with what they do with Sohini ).

BTW, Sri. Ginhde mentions Shankarabharanam, Shanmukhapriya, Malayamarutham, kalavathi etc. towards the end (45 minute mark I think ).
I could not understand what he said there. Did he say they also got imported in to HM?

This leads to a question in my mind. Hope I am phrasing it the right way. The ragas that have been imported do not have much of an oscillatory gamaka. Hamsadhwani, Abhogi, etc reveal some of their identify with a judicious use of the scale itself. kIravANi is interesting whose identify is more than the scale but I am not sure how much of the oscillatory aesthetics are reflected in HM. They seem to 'meend'ify it ever so slightly to fit into the HM aesthetics.

Are there any instances of CM raga with prominent oscillatory gamakas that have been imported in the HM with the essential flavor retained? CM Thodi or Begada would be well defined examples to do so (HM thodi is different so that does not count). If oscillation is a problem with respect to importing, CM Bhairavi will be an interesting case study. There are colossal aesthetics there without even bringing over oscillations and I wonder why that had not yet been fit into the HM mould. ( I see tables of equivalent ragas between CM and HM but that is a different animal )

Rsachi
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by Rsachi »

VKM,
you raise many fine points. The recording under discussion directed by Shri Ginde has done an excellent job of placing the contrasting approaches to ragas graciously acknowledged by him as from the south - Dakshin Vaibhav.

I think the two approaches between HM and CM, to almost any raga having the same scale and name, yet differ very very dramatically. It is like culiniary approaches, the same ingredients give dramatically different tastes. The biggest example in this recording would be Kirvani....
I think Kirvani becomes a princess in their adornments.
Last edited by Rsachi on 27 Apr 2015, 16:08, edited 1 time in total.

varsha
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by varsha »

I could not understand what he said there. Did he say they also got imported in to HM?
Nothing important . He admires the poetic ways of naming in CM , often using sanskrit words.
Are there any instances of CM raga with prominent oscillatory gamakas that have been imported in the HM with the essential flavor retained?
Jiendra Abhisheki from the same school has sung a major Amrithvarshini
Nikhil Bannerji has cut an album on Latangi which he learnt from SB in Bimalendu Mukherjis home in Bhilai . Where he was a frequent visitor and where in Fact he breathed his last.I got Mukherjis disciple to play Lathangi for us when I hosted her concert at eambalam For this reason.
There are more examples which I will try and fish out .
For the records Ginde was a fequesnt vistor to the December Festival accompanying his Guru Ratanjankar and fellow Vidwan Cr Vyas . All were great admirers of MDR . Old timers remember late night concerts of Ginde at SGS Sabha , the recordings of which are rotting in some mahagony boxes.:(

cacm
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by cacm »

vasanthakokilam wrote:Varsha, this is excellent. What a great program. I am not sure how much of CM Vachaspathi swaroopa got transfered into HM but on Vasantha, it is a revelation. I did not know Vasantha got into HM. May be only minimally performed?
Sri. Ginde mentions natanam Adinar and then hums a little flourish of Vasantha and it is spot on CM Vasantha. The HM singer also sings pretty much the CM Vasantha and she does that incredible aakaram singing and Vasantha is so amenable to such singing. (my reference for such delight is with what they do with Sohini ).
BTW, Sri. Ginhde mentions Shankarabharanam, Shanmukhapriya, Malayamarutham, kalavathi etc. towards the end (45 minute mark I think ).
I could not understand what he said there. Did he say they also got imported in to HM?
If I am not mistaken he was the thesis advisor for Dr.M.Narmadha for her ph.d. thesis in DELHI UNIVERSITY and her BOOK based on her thesis is a treasure trove of KNOWLEDGE & IDEAS on the subject. VKV

drmnarmadha96
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by drmnarmadha96 »

Dr Ginde spent his life as an extraordinary teacher and taught me many wonderful Bandish in HM as part of my doctoral research on the Comparative Studies of Indian music from Delhi.
Thankyou DrVKV for mentioning DrGinde in this context.
Gindeji,renowned vocalist strongly believed that a complete mastery of both streams HM and KM helps in performance enriched by tonal graces which can sometimes be common to both HM and KM. Gindeji had very great respect for SIndian musical compositions and notated Pandit Ratanjankar"s compositions and published them in many volume series and taught me many such lilting compositions (Bandish) in Jog,Khamaz and some Dhrupad compositions too.
Ginde ji was a fountain source of knowledge and I deem it a Saubhagya to have learnt close to 500 Bandish in popular and Aprachalit (lesser known ragas)
Gindeji admired Parurji,MSG Guruji and in all humility me too for performing in HM violin solo with no tinge of KM and shared great respect for SIndian musicians.
Gindeji felt that it is a gift ,God"s Gift to perform in both styles in flair ,ease and command.
He tuned Maharaja Svathi Thirunal"s Hindi Bhajans in both well known and unheard ragas of HM as well and I happen to possess a copy of this extraordinary effort of Dr.Ginde.
Aaj Aaye in Shuddh Sarang is one such Bhajan (padumanabha ke prabho) rendered with the tinge of gandhar of Shyam Kalyan.
Gindeji"s wonderful lectures are also available for the connoisseur of HM.
Gindeji was and will continue to be remembered for his phenomenal contribution as a prolific astounding teacher and scholar of Hindustani Music.
Sincere regards
DrMNarmadha.

cacm
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by cacm »

I WISH DR.M.Narmadha's EXPERTISE is taken advantage of PROPERLY. All the forums in this area I have come across has consisted of "EXPERTS" mostly self appointed indulging in SUPERFICIAL analyses. This was one of the reasons I included her name in the "FINDS" section of Cleveland in desperation. I was hoping for a SUBSTANTIAL discussion! VKV

Rsachi
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by Rsachi »

Welcome, Dr Narmadha!
I have three questions.
1. When a south Indian raga is adapted to HM, does it happen tthrough an instrumentalist or vocalist? Any history here?
2. I find the Kirvani of HM a very different persona compared to our Keeravani. This shows that taking a scale and creating a new persona has some deep creative impulses. Would you kindly talk about this? Any illustrative clips please?
3. In a grand Ragam Tanam Pallavi, we see the raga eg Kambhoji or Todi or Bhairavi developed in a mega scale. It is a bit like Lalitha Sahasranama. The imagery is so multidimensional. Do you find a comparable level of comprehensiveness coupled with exploration in HM? And then there are raga, laya and sahitya bhava at play. Do you think HM has got any inspiration from CM in this regard?

Thank you
Sachi

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks VKV for roping in Dr. Narmadha to this discussion. It is our privilege to have such an eminent personality educate us on these things. And of course, she is by far the most qualified person to talk about this specific topic.

Good questions Sachi. My curiosities are similar. I am looking forward to Dr. Narmada's education on this.

drmnarmadha96
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by drmnarmadha96 »

Ucchar the accent reigns supreme in Carnatic and Hindustani Music and more predominantly in Indian Music.
The Kirawani interval is one of the fascinating gift of Nature.
Myself having specialised on this topic for my doctoral research have observed that the intervals are easily cognizable to the brain.The length of the phrases and the tempo and the timing create distinctive stylistic spectacular images on the brain which in turn is recognizable through the ears as peculiar to Hindustani or Carnatic.
There are different Shaili (style) but the musical approach is common to any genre of music available in the world.This is why we are able to identify the piece of music heard as Hindustani or Carnatic or Western or folk or a familiar tune or a folk or whatever.
Due to my personal concert commitments ,You tube offers a variety of Bandish in Raag Kirwani, both vocal and instrumental ,the haunting Thumri by Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khanji and the equally bewitching Ambavaani by Vidushis Radha and Jayalakshmi and Gat in Raag Kirwani by MSG Guruji and Pandit Ravi Shankar are just out of the world renderings.
This is just a glimpse of the ocean and there are countless examples of Raag Kirwani for online hearing.The Khayal in different speeds Vilambit,Madhyalaya and Drut is roughly comparable to the expansive development of the Raag .Alaap,Jod and Jhala of the instrumental genre of Hindustani music is the closest counterpart to RTP of Carnatic Music.The earlier Dhrupad style did incorporate Alaap and Tanam style Raaga patterns without the Pakhawaj during the Bad at (development) and was incorporated when the Bandish (song line) was rendered with the rhythm cycle being demonstrated by hand gestures as in Carnatic Music.The Khayal genre did away this aspect of Taal in hands and introduced Tabla in place of Pakhawaj which figured as a major change with respect to the tonal research and with time Pakhawaj denoted a Dhrupadiya and Tabla indicated a Khayaliya.
Music is an infinite Ocean and do enjoy HM and CM.
Regards
drmnarmadha

cacm
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by cacm »

THANKS for the erudite observations & more than that a good education! I have learnt MORE from these two postings of DR.M.N. than ALL THE LEC/DEMS LECS, PANEL DISCUSSIONS ETC I HAVE ATTENDED. VKV

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Dr. Narmadha. I echo VKV's point that you have provided a lot of information in two short posts. As I have heard said 'uccharana bedha is raga bedha' and you also started off with that point and expanded on to quite a few parameters that make one music system sound different from others.

Thanks again.

Rsachi
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by Rsachi »

Thanks Narmadha ji
will listen and come back

varsha
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by varsha »


Rsachi
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by Rsachi »

Varsha, what music! It made me "bhaav vibhor!"

Torvi sings with the passion of a singer on the bank of Ganga in Kashi. Halim Jaffer is picking up flowers each one more delicate than the other carpeting a heavenly garden!

The samples fully illustrate sahitya bhava vs raga bhava!

varsha
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by varsha »


varsha
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by varsha »

I am not sure how much of CM Vachaspathi swaroopa got transfered into HM
Sriram Parasuram gave a brilliant duet with GKR Krishnan yesterday . One which would have convinced you .

A true duet in an intellectual sense . Not always running parallel . But parallel to the extent it was aesthetically and grammatically possible .
Vachaspathi-Vachaspathi , Jogiya - Saveri , Andolika - Gorakh Kalyan ... It was like a meeting of minds thinking privately in public .
Much to the benefit of the public .
I have always maintained that Chennai can consider itself HM-Mature on the day it understands the full value of Sriram Parasuram in its midst . GJR needs no gilding , but certain touches in the second half vachaspathi and saveri stood testimony to the fact that he is just not a biological chip of the old block . But has earned the chip through sheer rigour . Sriram Parasurams essays were in true North Indian style ( and not the HM filtered through CM lenses , espoused by other stalwarts ) .

The concert was so melodious that the leather - strikers were left watching for most of the time . A bit amused perhaps

All in all a great evening after TV Ramprasad delivered a stunning nItimati , in the previous concert .

Rsachi
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Re: Where South Meets North!

Post by Rsachi »

Varsha,
The concert must have been "Amogha"!
Yes, Sriram did sometime back a wonderful demo of the ragas in Malhar. He is a class apart. And GJRK stands tall in his own right indeed.

Chennai is recovering from all the excesses of varsha and megh etc. Good to read your report!


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