Do we really need explicit padams and jAvaLIs?

Classical Dance forms & related music
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rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

As parents of young children learning bharatanATyam in the US, we dread the time when we will be called upon to translate/explain a padam or jAvaLI! Ramaa Bharadvaj in this sort of op-ed piece iterates these feelings so eloquently:
http://www.narthaki.com/artindex.html

That is why a child/modern girl friendly mArgam is so sorely necessary. The initiative of Dr. Mamta Niyogi-Nakra is therefore to be appreciated, and hopefully emulated by others:
http://www.indian-heritage.org/current/ ... ishus.html

This child friendly mArgam is really superb!

Ravi

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Ravi,
Thanks once again for bringing to focus the importance of our being sensitive when it comes to exposing our children to compositions which are not child-friendly. Ramaa Bharadvaj has eloquently written about this question. Dr. Mamta Niyogi Nakra's efforts have to be applauded.
For the children who grow up in countries other than India, it is admirable that they (and their parents) are keen on enriching themselves with the cultural expressions of the old country. However, do the parents enroll their ofsprings in a BN class just because other parents do? Do they merely take them to classes and expect the teachers to train them and no more?
Or, even if they are not trained in the arts, do they take interest and create an atmosphere for the children at home to encourage in them a sense of pride that they are getting a glimpse of an old rich culture? Do they tell their children that competing with others is not the object of the excercise but the enjoyment of practising an ancient art is the thing? Just as they monitor the TV programs and know what their homework involves, do the parents know what the songs that they dance to mean? This applies to parents in India as well.
Going back to children attending BN recitals, if someone who has Ramaa Bharadvaj's credentials were to be taken by surprise, surely, it is the dancers who have to be questioned. Is competition making them try new things (with old stuff, of course!) and to be more sensational? The problem arose because (this is my guess) the content (adult theme) of the program was not spelt out in the ads--movies have ratings. While publicizing such a program, it is the dancer's or ensemble's responsibility to take children into consideration and specify clearly the tone of the content of the program. After all, how many among us would like the young to read vAtsAyanA to introduce them to indian culture?
Last edited by arasi on 27 Oct 2006, 07:54, edited 1 time in total.

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Arasi,
Thank you for your point of view.
I think that these situations stem from the fact that no one really pays attention to the meaning of these pieces, or thinks about them, and since girls in India learnt these in their classes, both parents and teachers think that it should be OK for these children to learn it as well. It actually samcks of very little imagination and sensitivity.
I agree with Ms. Ramaa Bharadvaj when she says that these intensely lyrical compositions that bring out the beauty of the rAga exquisitely (and Oh! So Earthily!) do have a place - as part of the mArgam of a mature, sensitive dancer performing for a mature, educated/enlightened audience - a combination that is probably rarer than the proverbial hen's tooth. These compositions exist on the razor thin edge that separates art from obscenity, and it is the performer who is repsonsible for the direction it takes.
I fully understand RDA's impulse to do away with these emotions and compositions! It may have been 'sanitization', but I think it was also representative of her very evolved sensitivity - a sensitivity that seems to be very difficult for most Indians to understand.

Ravi

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Ravi, you said it so well. Where is that sensitivity in most of the things that go in the name of art?
A word of warning: not a critical word about 'most indians'. You never know whether the hornets are abed...
Just kidding, folks!

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Arasi,
Point taken, but I made that comment because of late, many have accused RDA of stiffling the growth of BN because of her attempts...I like Ms. Leela Sampson's comment that RDA doesn't need her (Leela) to come to her rescue!
Ravi

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Post by Nick H »

What an absolutely fascinating article by Ramaa Bharadvaj. Bit of an eye-opener too, as I knew nothing about these songs other than that they were about love rather than religion. And I always though the rock & roll standard "good Morning Little SchoolGirl" was pretty bad: now I know an Indian musician could have told me I'd heard nothing yet! But seriously...

In conjures in me mixed feelings, certainly not yet quite decided.

I don't think I would be necessarily be disturbed at the young (well, young teenage) audience watching such material. 'Children' are almost always more 'grown up' than adults think. It has to be be put in the context also of the lyrics of the pop culture that they will be listening to when not practicing their classical skills. Any worse? Perhaps not.

However, I flinch at the idea of adults presenting on stage those same young teenagers dancing the stories of those sexual encounters. Tacky? or what?

Tangentally, one of the most distressing messages I see so often on the dance stage is the one that says a chubby, charming young boy must be permitted to be a thief and a mistreater of women. Number One bad role model for men...

drshrikaanth
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Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

Post by drshrikaanth »

nick H wrote:Tangentally, one of the most distressing messages I see so often on the dance stage is the one that says a chubby, charming young boy must be permitted to be a thief and a mistreater of women. Number One bad role model for men...
Nick. I disagree with you here. With due respect, your comment comes from a "Westerner" point of view without full insight into Indian culture/Hindu religion. I do not mean to pontificate, but let me ask you- how many Indian men that practice polygamy or are "naughty" have you met that qoute kRShNa as their role-model? You have no such "Bad-examples" here in the west and yet you see these practices are the in-thing and the norm in the West. No Indian boy is brought up to believe that it is ok to emulate kRShNa in his thieving and eve-teasing. kRShNa is more than that. In all my life, I have seen only one boy who took things from his friends and defended himself by quoting kRShNa when his parents questiond him. They sure drove that defense out of him :D One crucial difference between Indians' and Westerners' way of thinking is that Indians dont want to play God. Westerners do. We accept that we cannot do everything that God does or did.

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Ethos, ethos, ethos...

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Post by Nick H »

It was a controversial thought, and, touching on religion perhaps bound to be responded to.

What can I say, other than I have heard several Hindu Indian ladies wholeheartedly agree! Like one quote: "Oh yes, all this stuff was so obviously written by men...". So it is not necessarily valid to play the East/West card here.

I have no wish to offend, on the other hand I have never thought that religion makes something above questioning or criticizing.

I have to say that I never thought Indian children were in any way brought up to emulate Krishna's worse behaviour (wait, the ones I saw in a restaurant two days ago might well have been...). But the see the stories, the dances: you don't think it has an effect? And why is it these stories that so often seem to be the ones that make it onto the stage (...If I see that butter stealing danced just one more time, I might scream.)

Krishna is a fascinating and complex character. I am enjoying revisiting the stories having succeeded after so many years in getting a complete copy of the Mahabarat series with English subtitles.

I will say that I think that the points raised in rshankar's original posts are much more important than my sideline issue....

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Nick,
We know you on this forum as someone who has a great amount of interest in India and its cultural expressions. Otherwise, you wouldn't be living in Chennai (well, your mate 'rAdhA' :) is another reason)!. I am not even conscious that you are an 'alien' (in a positive sense) except when there are references to the UK in your posts.
As for some of your female friends, I am presuming: do they come under the category of women who feel strongly about the injustice meted out to women (legitimate perhaps) but carry it too far?
Forgetting all other aspects of krishnA, just narrowing it down to the arena of artistic expression--for this particular discussion--I would say, without krishnA, it would be a wasteland indeed.

An interesting story (story telling?) by eminent tamizh writer Indra Parthasaraty, 'krishnA!' deals with the complexities of this unbelievable entity...
Last edited by arasi on 28 Oct 2006, 22:10, edited 1 time in total.

drshrikaanth
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Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

Post by drshrikaanth »

nick H wrote:What can I say, other than I have heard several Hindu Indian ladies wholeheartedly agree! Like one quote: "Oh yes, all this stuff was so obviously written by men...". So it is not necessarily valid to play the East/West card here.
SO obviously written by men. Yes. But who line kRShNa more- Women! And that is not just in kRShNa's story but in real life too, kRShNa's character attracts women more. They love him. ANd th East-Wes card is very much valid here. Those women who made that comment are very much talking from the "Western" point of view.
I have no wish to offend, on the other hand I have never thought that religion makes something above questioning or criticizing.
No quibble here.
. But the see the stories, the dances: you don't think it has an effect? And why is it these stories that so often seem to be the ones that make it onto the stage (...If I see that butter stealing danced just one more time, I might scream.)
No it doesnt. haha. Thats simply not what happens. These stories often make it to the stage because they have already made it into people's hearts. They evoke various tender feelings. No, they dont make one want to be like him. On the contrary, they make one realise the difference between divinity and human nature.

Ask those "Women"/or anyone else for actual "instances" of men being what they are because they want to be like "kRShNa" or have been influenced by kRShNa. Iam not seeing that Indian men are saints. All I am saying is that kRShNa need not be held guilty for their escapades.

You are right. Lets leave the topic to the main issue without sidetracking it.

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Post by Nick H »

Just one more word... I'm not blaming Krishna. I'm blaming the way he is so often portrayed. In fact blaming is, of course, too strong a word, there is far more than just one character in the complex web of cultural and gender stereotypes.

And it could easily be said that stealing butter and teasing cowgirls was nowhere near the worse thing that Krishna ever did in his life... so very much more in that wonderful [hi]story of Mahabarat.

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