Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
Post Reply
uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by uday_shankar »

Sachi_R wrote: 04 Oct 2017, 17:00 Uday,
अहङ्कार should be pronounced like (not exactly but nearest to) ahangkaara.
This is my understanding. Note the way it is written in Samskrita. Different from Hindi अहंकार
True. अहङ्कार is a better spelling and pronunciation.

I gave the example primarily to point out the Arabicization of the vowel sounds. A better example may be

अहम् - Must be pronounced as A-HA-M, whereas most Hindi speakers would pronounce it as E-HE-M.

Sachi_R
Posts: 2174
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by Sachi_R »

EHEM? Hmmmm. Ahem!


shankar vaidyanathan
Posts: 108
Joined: 25 Jan 2014, 18:16

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by shankar vaidyanathan »

The blame entirely lies with the Guru: either in not guiding the disciples to read and comprehend in the original text as written in the native language, or, hear as spoken or rendered in the original pronunciation as rare as it might be.

The real lessons about phonetics begin at a very young age. I have been teaching Tamil for 10+ years. I have intentionally chosen to work with 3-5 years old Mazhalai classes with the thought of laying the foundation strong. Forget HM or North Indians questioning South Indians about our Samskritam pronunciations. I have encountered a deeper problem: Tamilians can’t pronounce Tamil! This has happened to the parents first and they have passed it on to their children. In several generations, the DNA will adapt and there will be a new low normal!!

So, the Guru must know first and be equipped first as that’s where the root cause really lies. If pursuing self study, a structured and methodic scholarly approach to learning is required, but of course we neither have the time nor patience. All the greats and legends you have pointed to were from a bygone era when time moved at a slower pace. Opportunities came only after thorough vetting both by the Guru and the Connoisseurs. We live in a different era now. “Give the masses what they want at double speed...may be with fries and soda too...and to go” is the marquee principle of entertainment and entertainers who are out to make a quick buck like our star sportsmen who have a limited shelf life. I don’t blame them.

Hence, my choice of listening to Chitraveena Ravikiran, Sanjay, TMK, Sowmya, Priya Sisters,RaGa Sisters and Abhishek Raghuram among the current crop of stage performing vidwans. Each one of these vidwans have invested a lifetime in learning from eminent Gurus. Some of them have the ability to play an instrument too where language doesn’t restrict but the scope for interpreting Sahityam is limitless. When they bring that possibility back to their vocal performances, new doors for exploration seem to open in their mind’s eyes. I cringe when they make a mistake but I have the hope that they have the self realization and internal compass to fix it.

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by thenpaanan »

uday_shankar wrote: 04 Oct 2017, 17:44 [...]

I gave the example primarily to point out the Arabicization of the vowel sounds. A better example may be

[...]
A similar but more commonly found example in music circles is the difference in pronunciation of "hamsa" in hamsadhwani. In the South we emphasize the "m"whereas North Indians replace it with a "n" sound with a shortened "s' (in effect "hansdhwani"). Maharashtrians alone say "haunsadhwani" with a pronounced nasal "aun" sound but they do not shorten the "s".

They all think they are speaking correct Sanskrit. In particular the last of the three are quite emphatic that they are doing it right when they pronounce 'saunskrut". Go figure.

-T

Sachi_R
Posts: 2174
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by Sachi_R »

Thenpaanan,
Long back, in a Macaulayan mood, I wrote that the Indians were a finished race. They haven't even decided to agree on a simple word:
Siva, Shiva, Shivan, Shiv, Siv, Shivam, Sivam, Ssiva, Sieva...

I have conjectured that we invented Om to make it a bit easier.
Even Yajmir will perhaps find no problem with the way I say Om.
But I know some folks have made DVDs about how it is Aaauuummm.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by RSR »

In Carnatic music, one tends to identify sanskrit kruthis with Dhikshithar and rendition by Smt.D.K.Pattammal as she learned the kruthis from direct descendant of Dhikshithar family , 'Ambi Dhikshithar.' ..
And Thyagaraja Swami kruthis with mainly Telugu. but Saint Thyagaraja, as is well known , has given us some wonderful sanskrit kruthis too. I wanted to give Sri.Yajmir some examples. He was specifically referring to CM vocalists . Hence I would like to add these links for his hearing experience. and comment
sujana jeevanaa Rama suguna bhooshana by D.K.Pattammal
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... a-jeevanaa

jaanaki ramanaa (suddha seemanthini) by D.K.Pattammal
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... amana-best
(there is a link in the same page to the same kruthi rendered by Madurai Mani Iyer)
jagath aanandha kaarakaa by M.S.Subbulakshmi
https://youtu.be/voyxn7zsvGE

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If i am not mistaken, there seems to be no sanskrit kruthi by Purandharadasa.
( it appears that he created the songs in the language kannada spoken by the majority of people in karnataka )
Sachi_R Sir, is requested to give a few sanskrit kruthis by Purandharadasa ( venkatachala nilayam excluded as many feel that Purandharadasa did not compose that kruthi).

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by Rsachi »

Will look for it, sir.

MaheshS
Posts: 1186
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by MaheshS »

RSR wrote: 16 Oct 2017, 21:56 If i am not mistaken, there seems to be no sanskrit kruthi by Purandharadasa.
( it appears that he created the songs in the language kannada spoken by the majority of people in karnataka )
Sachi_R Sir, is requested to give a few sanskrit kruthis by Purandharadasa ( venkatachala nilayam excluded as many feel that Purandharadasa did not compose that kruthi).
Well it's not a krithi, but Sri Gananatha in Malahari. Krithi wise can I suggest - Jaya jaya jaya jaanakikaantaa in Nattai?

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by rshankar »

MaheshS wrote: 16 Oct 2017, 23:32Well it's not a krithi, but Sri Gananatha in Malahari
There is a word in this gItam - lakumikara that I think is definitely not sanskRt. kunda gaura may be a better example, although, even in that canda mAma may be difficult to reconcile.

Sachi_R
Posts: 2174
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by Sachi_R »

Image

Scan of the famous book of Prof S K Ramachandra Rao "Purandara Darshana". It is the song
nārāyaṇa te namo namo
It is in Samskrita.

I used to sing this song as a kid, I grew up near a temple in Basavanagudi.

Dr Satyavathi sings it here:
http://mp3pleers.online/play/t-s-sathya ... zwurs.html
It is documented in all compendia of Purandara Dasa kritis as his composition. She also says so.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by arasi »

Thank you Sachi. Got to hear Dr. Satyavathi after quite a while. The gAmbIrya in her singing is something which is very appealing to me.

Amateur
Posts: 76
Joined: 17 Oct 2008, 04:51

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by Amateur »

strangely the same composition is also attributed to Annamacharya!!
(with the change in the mudra)

http://www.karnatik.com/c1564.shtml

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNE-ULfJL-c

bala747
Posts: 314
Joined: 20 Mar 2006, 12:56

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by bala747 »

"Surely it is not controversial to say that phonology of Indo-Aryan languages is closer to that of Sanskrit compared to Dravidian languages."

So?

Even when they are singing Sanskrit kritis there is sort of Dravidian (Tamil, Telugu etc) accent that makes the performance very foreign sounding.

To someone focusing too much on the semantics of pronounciation yes, but you're telling me only people from England can act in plays written by English script writers? Or are you saying that because Narayan was Indian, his command or quality of English delivery was any less than that of an Englishman purely because of the nuances and turns of phrase he uses that are uniquely Indian? Or that English people cannot enjoy Naipaul?

"Of course to native Dravidian languages speakers this may not be even noticeable but to me this feels very jarring."

Well, I can't stand brinjals, but we all have our prejudices.

Okay, if the musician mispronounces words that turn Pavanatmaja aagacha to Pavanathmajaa Gaccha, by all means feel outraged because that is changing the meaning of the piece, and I would be the first to point out this is precisely why I can't stand a musician, but if ways words are pronounced annoy you, then you should perhaps consider relooking your prejudices.

We tolerated Manna Dey singing "manasa maine varu", so really you complain too much.

sankark
Posts: 2321
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by sankark »

bala747 wrote: 18 Oct 2017, 18:55
Even when they are singing Sanskrit kritis there is sort of Dravidian (Tamil, Telugu etc) accent that makes the performance very foreign sounding.
That begs the question - what is the reference for native spoken Sanskrit like? AFAIK, no one in this 3rd rock from the sun can cite Sanskrit as their mother tongue..

melam72
Posts: 494
Joined: 02 Nov 2016, 16:12

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by melam72 »

There is a village in Karnataka where there are native Samskrut speakers.

Mr. Sachi might be able to supply more details

bala747
Posts: 314
Joined: 20 Mar 2006, 12:56

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by bala747 »

I didn't say that. The OP did. Forgot to include quotation marks.

Back after a long hiatus, so still a bit rusty as to the way I post.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by RSR »

While searching for Sanskrit kruthis by Purandharadasa , I came across this page. Sri.Sachi_R will be interested .Just info. http://www.vsubhash.com/article.asp?id= ... Purandhara
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it likely that NCV could have given a record of Purandharadasa? Hari ennu..

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by RSR »

I am from tamilnadu and when we read Subramanya Barathy's essays, there are so many sanskrit words. Tamil journalism even upto 1950 had great many sanskrit words. The other south indian languages like malayalam, kannada, and telugu use many more sanskrit nouns and verbs. No Indian language is entirely free from sanskrit. Acharya Vinoba Bhave suggested the adoption of devanagari script for all the major Indian languages. ( atleast , as auxiiliary script). Except Thmaizh, all the Indian languages follow the sanskrit pattern of consonants.and vowels ( ka, kka, ga, gha). and so on. So transliterating such languages into sanskrit may give better results. ( instead of transliteating into English). Moreover, our Marathi, Gujarathi, Hindi, Punjabi and Benbali brethren also will find it easier to understand the kruthis of Purandharadasa, and the Trinity. That applies to tamils also. If we get out of the anti-hindi mindset ( more political than rational... many anti-hindi anti-sanskrit opinions are just political). by familiarizing ourselves with devanagari script and giving the kruthis in that script , with proper word-separation, all of us can easily follow the meaning. Thamizh alone does not fit into that pattern because there are ka, kka, ga but no kha and gha. ( it makes the language seasier and more natural).but word beginnings cannot be in sa, ja, ga and so on. this is a week point. I may be wrong but thamizh is nearer to English and sanskrit in the following usage. 'a word can end in 'm' sound. (ex) swagatham . 'vandhanam' and so on. but telugu and kannada add 'u' sound as vandhanamu . which makes me wonder if the original language spoken in deccan in the previous millennium was not after all sanskrit ( colloquial). with half-tamizh endings for nouns and verbs. The first step for such unification is partial adoption of devanagari script. Scholars like Sri. V.Govindan, may be better capable of what I am trying to convey. Once we arrive at a consensus about the script, in just one decade, all the Indians will be able to understand all the Indian languages easily

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by shankarank »

bala747 wrote: 18 Oct 2017, 18:55 Okay, if the musician mispronounces words that turn Pavanatmaja aagacha to Pavanathmajaa Gaccha, by all means feel outraged because that is changing the meaning of the piece, and I would be the first to point out this is precisely why I can't stand a musician, but if ways words are pronounced annoy you, then you should perhaps consider relooking your prejudices.
You have a counter opinion here: https://youtu.be/3aGca_AUltk?t=3423

All this language parsing is all the result of movie era prejudices and linguistic re-org of states with all Chauvinism entering people's mind.

In your example there may be a joining of two words - and musician may lose breath.

Only place where a clear communication is essential is life and death places like when army and intelligence units communicate or in an operation theatre or construction site.

A vEdic liturgical system whose imperative is to transmit orally the hymns over millennia may follow it.

Even in Management speak - communication theorists are out there training people how 80% of it is tone and only 20% is actual content! Inspired by politicians :twisted:

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by shankarank »

And yet on an auspicious day you have historians tweeting something hideous :

https://twitter.com/MadrasMobile/status ... 0727999488

And other opinion leaders that review concerts tweeting equally hideous stuff in response.

What a generation of people!

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by sureshvv »

Lighten up, shankarank! This is just one of the many age-old carnatic jokes recycled.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by RSR »

Sri.Mahesh Sir @ 59. ...
Jaya jaya jaya jaanakikaantaa in Nattai?..
. I looked up in google . Nice presentation at
ಜಯ ಜಾನಕೀ ಕಾಂತ – Jaya Janaki Kantha Lyrics
https://meerasubbarao.wordpress.com/201 ... ha-lyrics/
rAga: nATa
Composer: Sri purandaradasa
Singer: M.L. Vasantakumari
Contributor: Ms. Bhavana Damle
----------------------------------------------------------
How I wish, there was a devanagari version!

jaya jAnakI kAMta jaya sAdhu jana vinuta
jayatu mahimAnaMta jaya bhAgyavaMta | jaya jaya ||pa.||

dasharathAtmaja vIra dashakaMTha saMhAra pashupatIshvara mitra pAvana caritra
kusuma bANa svarUpa kushala kIrti kalApa asama sAhasa shikSha aMbujadaLAkSha ||1||

sAmagAna vilOla sAdhujana paripAla kAmitArtha pradAta kIrti saMjAta
sOma sUrya prakAsha sakala lOkAdhIsha shrI mahA raghuvIra siMdhu gaMbhIra ||2||

sakala shAstra vicAra sharaNajana maMdAra vikasitAMbuja vadana vishvamaya sadana
sukRuta mOkShAdhIsha sAkEta puravAsa bhakutavatsala rAma puraMdara viThala ||3||

(bhaktha vathsala ?)

ರಾಗ: ನಾಟ

ಜಯ ಜಾನಕೀ ಕಾಂತ ಜಯ ಸಾಧು ಜನ ವಿನುತ
ಜಯತು ಮಹಿಮಾನಂತ ಜಯ ಭಾಗ್ಯವಂತ | ಜಯ ಜಯ ||ಪ.||

ದಶರಥಾತ್ಮಜ ವೀರ ದಶಕಂಠ ಸಂಹಾರ ಪಶುಪತೀಶ್ವರ ಮಿತ್ರ ಪಾವನ ಚರಿತ್ರ
ಕುಸುಮ ಬಾಣ ಸ್ವರೂಪ ಕುಶಲ ಕೀರ್ತಿ ಕಲಾಪ ಅಸಮ ಸಾಹಸ ಶಿಕ್ಷ ಅಂಬುಜದಳಾಕ್ಷ ||೧||

ಸಾಮಗಾನ ವಿಲೋಲ ಸಾಧುಜನ ಪರಿಪಾಲ ಕಾಮಿತಾರ್ಥ ಪ್ರದಾತ ಕೀರ್ತಿ ಸಂಜಾತ
ಸೋಮ ಸೂರ್ಯ ಪ್ರಕಾಶ ಸಕಲ ಲೋಕಾಧೀಶ ಶ್ರೀ ಮಹಾ ರಘುವೀರ ಸಿಂಧು ಗಂಭೀರ ||೨||

ಸಕಲ ಶಾಸ್ತ್ರ ವಿಚಾರ ಶರಣಜನ ಮಂದಾರ ವಿಕಸಿತಾಂಬುಜ ವದನ ವಿಶ್ವಮಯ ಸದನ
ಸುಕೃತ ಮೋಕ್ಷಾಧೀಶ ಸಾಕೇತ ಪುರವಾಸ ಭಕುತವತ್ಸಲ ರಾಮ ಪುರಂದರ ವಿಠಲ ||೩||
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
https://youtu.be/4qo3J2Qi0dY
is the link correct version?

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by RSR »

@71 Sri.ShankaranK -> I share your consternation! "What a generation"!

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by RSR »

DRAFT REMOVED
Last edited by RSR on 21 Oct 2017, 17:28, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by RSR »

As this thread is about the way in which Carnatic vocalists render Sanskrit kruthis, I may be permitted to give links to a few more kruthis.
1) This is by N.C.Vasanthakokilam (1920-1951) .singing Vinayaka ...(vegavahini(chakravaham)) .Dhikshithar kruthi.. unearthed by varsha_ji and just yesterday placed in site for NCV. as this is very rare. It was an upload by Raju Asokan and thanks to guruguha vaibavam site of Sr.V.Govindan, we have the lyrics and meaning too here.
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... egavaahini
------------------------------------------------------
2) This upload by Srinivasan.V of an M.S.S. concert song of Saketha Nagara Natha in Harikambodhi. The year was around 1965. https://youtu.be/razC37HQzvM.....Mysore Sadashiva Rao...
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... ara-naatha for a brief note on Mysore Sadasiva Rao.
3) Here is GNB rendering the same kruthi. https://youtu.be/dsL_VVmJs_c
----------------------------------------------------------

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by Rsachi »

जय जानकीकान्त जय साधुजनविनुत
जयतु महिमानन्त जय भाग्यवन्त । जय जय ॥ प.॥

दशरथात्मज वीर दशकण्ठसंहार पशुपतीश्वरमित्र पावन चरित्र
कुसुमबाणस्वरूप कुशलकीर्तिकलाप असमसाहसशिक्ष अंबुजदळाक्ष ॥ १॥

सामगानविलोल साधुजनपरिपाल कामितार्थप्रदात कीर्तिसञ्जात
सोमसूर्यप्रकाश सकललोकाधीश श्रीमहारघुवीर सिन्धुगंभीर ॥ २॥

सकलशास्त्रविचार शरणजनमंदार विकसितांबुजवदन विश्वमयसदन
सुकृतमोक्षाधीश साकेतपुरवास भकुतवत्सल राम पुरन्दरविठल ॥ ३॥

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by rshankar »

Singing compositions in sanskRt (or in any language other than tamizh) 'properly' involves more than mere enunciation of the words - it involves distinguishing between not just ka and ga sounds for example, but also clearly and persistently differentiating between ka and kha, ga and gha and so on and so forth as well.

There are very few musicians who do this consistently (with each and every sangati for example) IMO - Smt. MSS was definitely one whose enunciation was great. Sri KVN and Sri MDR were superb (if fact, you can distinguish श [S] from ष [sh] from their pronunciation). Of the present day musicians, Smt. Gayathri Girish is one who pays attention to the words, their pronunciation, and splitting (padacchEdam).

Pronouncing अतिथि (atithi) as अतिति (atiti) clearly is just that - clearly wrong....as is भ्रह्म (bhrahma) instead of ब्रह्म (brahma).....

So, if tamizh speakers carry over the lack of distinction of the mahAprANa (e.g., ba versus bha) into sansKrt, native-hindi speakers have their own quirks, which I think are not correct either.....e.g., most hindi speakers pronounce words like कमल (kamala) as कमल् (kamal) - which is probably why all of them, without exception, mangle the word भरतनाट्यम्/பரதனாட்யம் (bharatanATyam) - so that it sounds like the dance of Sakuntala's son (भरत् नाट्यम् [bharat nATyam]) OR worse, the (only) dance of India (भारत् नाट्यम् [bhArat nATyam]).

Lakshman
Posts: 14019
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by Lakshman »

I have a question for the samskrt scholars at the rasikas website. The name of the great avadhi poet is spelled by the northerners as tulsidAs and spelled as tuLasidAs by the southerners. Which version is correct? Thanks.

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by kvchellappa »

It may have nothing to do with Samskrtam. Tulsidas may be the closest to the way his name is in Hindi, presumably his mother tongue. North Indians use 't' for 'tha'. In early Samskrtam and perhaps even in current Hindi there is no ள. A person's name is what his parents intended it to be and how he want it to be. Is it Muthuswamy or Mudduswamy? Any amount of reasearch is of no use except into how he called himself.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by arasi »

Lakshman,
It's like bharatnATyam, isn't it? :)

Ravi,
You are so right. The problem is prevalent in every state of India. The good news is: students nowadays can look up lyrics on the web. If they are diligent, they will know many good ones, and when there are different versions of the same word, they can go by what a few of them agree on, AND look up the meaning. How many sAhitya bhaNDArs there are which are true to the text! For example, Govindan's tyAgarAja vaibhavam. Of course, the teachers are the very first sources to learn from (if they got it right from their gurus!).

Lakshman
Posts: 14019
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by Lakshman »

kvchellppa: I totally agree with what you are saying. I only wish that when Karnatak musicians sing Tulsidas' song they say tulasidAs rather than tuLasidAs.

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by rshankar »

Lakshman wrote: 21 Oct 2017, 01:16 I have a question for the samskrt scholars at the rasikas website. The name of the great avadhi poet is spelled by the northerners as tulsidAs and spelled as tuLasidAs by the southerners. Which version is correct? Thanks.
Lakshmanji - when written in HIndi, his name is spelled as तुलसिदास, but pronounced as if it is तुल्सिदास्. In the south it is pronounced as if it is तुळसिदास्....
kvchellappa wrote: 21 Oct 2017, 04:17 It may have nothing to do with Samskrtam. Tulsidas may be the closest to the way his name is in Hindi, presumably his mother tongue. North Indians use 't' for 'tha'.
I disagree - In Hindi, there is ta (त), tha (थ), T (ट) and Tha (ठ).....

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by rshankar »

Rsachi wrote: 20 Oct 2017, 22:32भकुतवत्सल राम पुरन्दरविठल ॥ ३॥
भकुत (bhakuta) can't be in samskRtam...it should be भक्त (bhakta), right? This is like lakumikara (लकुमिकर) versus lakshmIkara (लक्ष्मीकर), IMO....

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by kvchellappa »

I am aware of तवर्ग and टवर्ग. What I mentioned was about transliteration. In the north they use t for त and tha for ठ; in the south they use t for ट and tha for त.

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by Rsachi »

Yes, Ravi, bhakuta is for bhakta and the reason perhaps he used bhakuta was 1.he was a Kannadiga and bhakuti, mukuti etc. are tadbhavas and accepted.2 More likely it was needed to get an extra maatra in.. For taala.

The glaring example of a similar transformation is magugaLa for makkaLa in jagadoddharana.

I also feel it should be tulasidaas and not tulsidaas. In Hindi they truncate intermediate syllables. Like sumiran becomes simran.

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by kvchellappa »

The changed forms, whatever be the trigger for change, become new norm and are considered standard. (I believe so with ragas also). In Tamizh, such changed words are called மருஊ சொற்கள். In Hindi, it is the established practice to truncate alternate consonants and we must respect their practice. In Tamizh also, names like Ilakkuvan are in use. I have qualms though about changing proper names unless the person concerned prefers it that way. There is no way to cross-check with Lakshmana!

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by RSR »

@77-> Sri.Sachi_R-> Thank you very much for the devanagari for jaya-jaya kruthi. 1) When we give the lyrics, we can give it as rendered by the singer. and not from any book. We should also split the words to make them easy to follow. (ex) जय जानकी--कान्त जय साधु-जन-विनुत. and so on. In all the languages( including thamizh, the so called thaaLakramam koottaksharam is what makes it very difficult to follow. ( of course, after understanding the words , the reader will appreciate the rhyme better. I do not know Kannada but I find the few Purandhara dasa kruthis absolutely lovely and lyrical in their simplicity. Here and there , we may find a few words new but for anyone with sanskrit orientation, with just a little bit of help, we can easily enjoy and be thrilled.by the poetic rhyming The only thing required is some familiarity with the sentiments, traditions and usages in Bakthi movement. Poetry ( with its focus on rhyme) is meant for natives. I cannot make any non-thamizh reader really appreciate a song like 'vadavaraiyai matthaakki' by MS ...when she sings 'vanduzhaay maalaiyaay, mayamo marutkaitthe'. ( the inflection she gives in vanduzhaay !). But, I believe that all the other languages in India are just regional variants of Sanskrit and that it is why we must use Sanskrit transcription and translation . . About 'tulasidas', Why not write it as it should have been, 'thuLasi dhaasa'? ... Changing a nice name as Rama as Iraaman' and Lakshmanan as Ilakkuvan, Lakshmi as Ilakkumi is just a horror. like Rishi into Irudi! Recent writers and journalists use much more civilized method. They try to go to the root of the sanskrit word and the coin a thamizh word which has the same meaning. For example, Thiru MakaL for Goddess Lakshmi. Not all character names in our revered ithihasams can adopt that method. Nor is it necessary. maNipravaaLam is so sweet. Try transliteration / translation of dhyaana slokam https://sites.google.com/site/dhyanaslokam/home/slokams
( anonymous!). What lovely rhyming without conscious attempt! Even without being set to music, just plain recitation itself is musical. That is Sanskrit! It is futile to study Kamba Ramayanam in transliterated English! If we really want to read Kamban or even Barathy, we MUST learn Thamizh. . Sanskrit is the only alternative left for Tamils to learn the carnatic kruthis by PurandharaDasa and the trinity. We are talking of music only.

sankark
Posts: 2321
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by sankark »

melam72 wrote: 18 Oct 2017, 21:20 There is a village in Karnataka where there are native Samskrut speakers.

Mr. Sachi might be able to supply more details
Did you mean Mattur https://www.thebetterindia.com/65046/sa ... karnataka/ https://www.karnataka.com/shimoga/mattu ... -of-india/

Even there Sanskrit seems a second/learnt language, in addition to their Sankethi/Tamil/Kannada native tongue.

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by Rsachi »

Yes.
From my limited exposure to Samskrita, I feel it is a wonderful language to write poetry and convey great imagery. It will not supplant any local language. Most often the drive to learn and preserve Samskrita comes from a devoted pursuit of our spiritual literature and ancient works like Kalidasa's.
Mattur ( I haven't been there) seems like. A quaint experiment. I think Samskrita Bharati is a much more solid intitative (just google it).

thanjavooran
Posts: 2972
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 04:44

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by thanjavooran »

Shri satchi,
Well said. It is a live language. Contains more authority for modern science.
With wishes,
Thanjavooran
22 10 2017

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by kvchellappa »

RSachi,
Is it not Samskritam? (I prefer Samskrtham).

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by Rsachi »

Samskṛtam


The English way of writing it as Sanskrit was debated and changed to Samskrita.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by RSR »

@93-> not Samskrutham? vs Praakrutham? .. I have given about 10 links to sanskrit kruthis sung by famous vocalists of Thamizhnadu. May I know if there are any phonetic defects in the rendering? (Not likely! , ..yet!)
HM does not rely much on lyrics. I am curious to know if there are indeed any sanskrit lyrics for their songs sung by their illustrious vocalists.
While on this topic, I happened to read a monograph ( by Shodhganga) on Muthuswamy Dikshithar. ( it was in pdf). To enable highlighting some points, I got it converted into plain word format and have placed it in
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... hikshithar

Lovers of Sanskrit kruthis, Dikshithar and his works will find the page very interresting and informative.
It will be nice to get links to Dikshithar kruthis in Telugu and manuipravaaLam. Also some sanskrit kruthis by Shyama Sasthri and Swathi ThirulnaaL

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by kvchellappa »

It is certainly not 'u' or 'i', some indeterminate or in-between sound. Sruti and smrti. many pronounce smrti also as smruti, which is wrong. It is krti, not kruti. I believe even 'r' is not to be pronounced (RSachi said once he would send an audio if possible). It is not prakrutam, but prakrtam.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by RSR »

@95-> my understanding..( may be wrong)( from thamizh percetion) . 'krutham' ('seyyappatta').க்ருதம் 'samskrutham' ( chemmaip padutthappatta', nanku seyyappatta ',), praakrutham ('natural', iyalbaana') , 'prakruthi ப்ரக்ருதி ( nature'), smruthi ( kutriyalukaram' (short) as in 'eruthu' எருது tamil, rules laid down for living as by sages as in manusmruthi ( hence smaartha brahmins --people who follow such rules, in contrast to sruthi ஸ்ருதி (pronounced as in 'put', and hence sroutham ,srouthikal, ( people well versed in upanishads more concerned with the precepts than with rituals ) In music, sruthi suddham ஸ்ருதி ஸுத்தம் ( adherence to pitch. ). .. mruthyu ( first short, next normal) amrutham ( short ).. How sruthi is written in sanskri ? it is normal 'u' as in kutram குற்றம்.. Is it meant to be pronounced as in 'kriyaa' ( as in 'pit') ? Hardly.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by RSR »

Adding one more sanskrit kruthi ( Dhikshithar) by D.K.Pattammal (solo)
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... etaroopini

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by RSR »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Aruti

Shruti or Shruthi (Sanskrit: श्रुति; IAST: Śruti; IPA/Sanskrit: [ʃrut̪i]) in Sanskrit means "that which is heard" and refers to the body of most authoritative, ancient religious texts comprising the central canon of Hinduism.[1] It includes the four Vedas including its four types of embedded texts - the Samhitas, the Brahmanas, the Aranyakas and the early Upanishads.[2]
=======================================
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smriti
Smriti (Sanskrit: स्मृति, IAST: Smṛti), literally "that which is remembered" are a body of Hindu texts usually attributed to an author, traditionally written down but constantly revised, in contrast to Śrutis (the Vedic literature) considered authorless, that were transmitted verbally across the generations and fixed.[1] Smriti is a derivative secondary work and is considered less authoritative than Sruti in Hinduism, except in Mimamsa school of Hindu philosophy.[2][3]

Sachi_R
Posts: 2174
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by Sachi_R »

@kvchellappa Sir,
This set of videos may be helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAbHLSL ... WPEqmvoaN4

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

Post by thenpaanan »

uday_shankar wrote: 04 Oct 2017, 17:44
Sachi_R wrote: 04 Oct 2017, 17:00 Uday,
अहङ्कार should be pronounced like (not exactly but nearest to) ahangkaara.
This is my understanding. Note the way it is written in Samskrita. Different from Hindi अहंकार
True. अहङ्कार is a better spelling and pronunciation.

I gave the example primarily to point out the Arabicization of the vowel sounds. A better example may be

अहम् - Must be pronounced as A-HA-M, whereas most Hindi speakers would pronounce it as E-HE-M.
This reminds me -- in Srirangam the Lord is referred to very often as rengA rather than ranga as it is pronounced elsewhere. I have seen many a gentleman spelling his name 'renganAthan" with an e rather than a. Anyone know why this is so?

Of course in Kerala we find 'renjith' and 'rema' which are also Snskrit-derived.

-T

Post Reply