Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

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kvchellappa
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#51 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvchellappa » 13 Jan 2018, 14:50

shankarank ji,
I sail in the same pretentious boat with most of your posts, largely because I am not so well read.
If the purpose of your writing is that simpletons like me also should understand, perhaps you must adopt a simple and lucid style.
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shankarank
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#52 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank » 13 Jan 2018, 17:33

OK then start answering my simple question asked in the last post. Why do we think it was bad for Brahmins to expect MSS to transform as she did and perform the music of their liking? Why do we say now that they should not have made her change?

And I would make more statements to aid you. The people who decided that devadasi system should go were not some enlightened people - they were sheep herd. Similar to how they believed and made next gen also believe that Freedom was won by Gandhi, Nehru and their group of people.

Not that Gandhi was not useful, he had good PR strategies to keep the population calm and not break out in fights! But that's about it!
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#53 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvchellappa » 13 Jan 2018, 18:24

Thanks. I can make out now. I would like to restrain myself (rather unusually) as I do not have something to say to add to the discussion.
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#54 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki » 13 Jan 2018, 20:42

The more welcoming and inclusive we are, the cleaner our minds become, and the better our chance of becoming a godly people, like the righteous populations we learn about in our stories of yore. Every individual who practices inclusion has a good chance of purifying his mind.
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#55 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvchellappa » 13 Jan 2018, 21:21

It does not have to be loud, raucous and demonstrative. It is not inclusive if it abuses one set of people to offset the exclusion of another set. Inclusiveness must come from love and genuine change of heart. It does not come through propaganda and a hate campaign. It comes through understanding, not argument. Arguments seal the borders and the groups fortify their positions. Inclusiveness is not achieved by newspaper articles in flowery language or by questioning all past. It is not achieved by symbolic gestures and desultory token events. It requires focus and not something like cattle grazing, a bite here and a bite there. It is not achieved by questioning the lives and motives of the people concerned. It is not an intellectual or scholarly exercise, but an intense social programme. There have been people who threw their lucrative professions away and attempted change all their life sincerely and with passion. They used their skills if possible to help the people affected, and they did not indulge in muddying their profession. They did not belittle their peers while moving away from the bigotry practised by many of them. It is not a case of a clarion call and all is well ever after like in a fairy tale.
I have blurted out though it is not relevant to Andal and the sinister insinuation. The insinuation does allude to the social stigma and that is an issue that has been touchy. But, the fact remains that the gentleman wanted to hurt the sentiments of the believers. In the process, he has hurt the sentiments of the community also.
I do not see how continuation of devadasi system would have been a service to them.
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#56 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki » 13 Jan 2018, 21:37

Whoa!! I was responding to Sankarank's question to me. I was expressing my feeling.

Regarding TMK, I do not speak for him. I speak of how I understand him, and I speak about my views of the nature of the discussions here. So your response to me is way heavier than I can handle. I spoke a simple truth. It is not political.
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#57 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Nick H » 13 Jan 2018, 23:08

On the aside...
RSR wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 01:36
#31-> Nick-> Your understanding of the teachings of Jesus , is wrong. Like Buddha and Mahavira, Jesus insisted on absolute non-violence even against obvious evils and cruelty. ... ... ...
Western/Christian thought (referring to Shakarank's earlier comment on India) is not history-centric either. It is a long time since I did any reading of, or about, the bible, and I don't care to do so now, but you should look to what has been been removed from it over the centuries. You may find that Jesus was not so much they gentle hippy that "they" want us to believe. You can even find some of it as the aprocryphal books.

Not all my information is strictly what might be called history-centric by formal scholars either. India is not the only place in the world to have mystics and the like!

Jesus insisting on non-violence is something that I do not, personally, believe.
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#58 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR » 13 Jan 2018, 23:53

#57-> The Gospel .. St.Mathew .. just about 25 pages.... Ennobling poetic prose. Worth reading everyday. What more can I say? My teacher Kuppusami Iyer taught us St.Mathew in our 8th class ( school). It was NOT a missionary school. While , reading George Eliot , later in my college days, I used to wonder, how much the English history revolved around the teachings of the Bible. and the local Church. . Have you read Lamb's essay on Quakers? How the Pilgrim Fathers left the country to practice real Christianity and sailed to the US? What a marvel!
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#59 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR » 14 Jan 2018, 00:16

#52-> Do read some history. especially of the events in England and India from 1789 .and in Europe. Do not speak irreverently of great leaders. If you have something positive to say, about them , good. If not, better to be silent. Rather than speaking ill of personalities whom the progressive intellectuals the world over, revere , it would be better to write positively about 'your' icons, so that the forum members can get an insight into your sense of values. At present, your posts are mere trolls. i know I will get a flood of abuse and smileys. Semi-literates only use smileys. Organize your thoughts and present a unified point of view. in straight and simple language. It is a question of style. Read good authors like Russell. both for ideas and language.
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shankarank
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#60 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank » 14 Jan 2018, 05:29

RSR it is because of progressive intellectuals world over , why I have to say such irreverent things about great people. I have no other way of making my point.

My icons? I don't build my case using icons. I truly see that there has been no progress made without a countervailing ( that is grounded on dharma - a set of principles that has guided a society over time!) action or at least a threat of it.

It was intellectual in some cases, and in some context like Nethaji's case, it could be fighting a war.

But I find it amusing that Marxist scholars have sold the idea of non violence to a generation of Indians, when that entire body of thought has seen significant violence!
RSR wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 23:53
How the Pilgrim Fathers left the country to practice real Christianity and sailed to the US?
There is no way in which an Indian can read that in any positive sense knowing what happened. That we do it, is why people like Vairamuttu are running circles over us.
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#61 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by sureshvv » 14 Jan 2018, 07:57

Reading Vairamuthu's apology and TMK's tweet it becomes apparent that there is a different connotation of the word Devadasi that they are using. What they are saying is Devadasi = feminst.

So in a period where girls were married off when barely in their teens, Andal decided to eschew that path and instead was focusing on her God given talent of being a poet. Devadasis were primarily feminists, who were allowed the freedom of pursuing their passion during a time when most women were not.

What we seem to be reacting to is the defintion that Devadasi = prostitute. While this may be partly true, this may be an unfair definition of a vast number of artistes of those times.

Even in the movie "Tillana Mohanambal", Mohana comes out as a woman passionate about her art, shunning the sinister machinations of her mother and finally marrying the musician she was in love with.

Once we change the connotation of Devadasi, it seems we can accommodate all views.
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#62 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvchellappa » 14 Jan 2018, 08:45

When did the momentous change in the connotation of devadasi (devar adiyal in tamizh) take place? It is far from the case that the unparalleled Tamizh poet who can adjudicate on the poetry of Azhwars has used the expression to admire Andal for her independence, Tamizh patru and feminism (whatever it means). As to TMK, the less said the better.
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#63 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank » 14 Jan 2018, 10:07

sureshvv wrote:
14 Jan 2018, 07:57
So in a period where girls were married off when barely in their teens,
Oh yeah - those were treacherous bad times!! We men have created such a good times amidst us , as clerks, accountants, lawyers and judges and IT fellows , Women only need to be liberated to make it even better! Just extrapolate Andal to all Women now - hunky dory , everything will be good!

From liberation theology to liberation philology , read all current fads into the past :evil: . Except that current fads are not valid even now - forget taking them back to old days!

There are great laws and the constitution except there is no rule of law. No body can bear true witness , as they lack self protection and state cannot protect them also.

Lets get rid of humans there - machines will help - Women are truly free ! : https://swarajyamag.com/ideas/bengaluru ... a-bad-idea

I don't know why we need Men on the front lines of territorial borders willing to sacrifice their lives , when no witness will risk their lives to uphold the republic and it's rule of law. Lets make it all machines and Women will operate them from call centers!

Yeah that's right - history now shifted from the kitchen to the call center : https://youtu.be/LLE_Idr2RSU?t=389 - Kitchen sink!! :evil:

RSR, you are tired of emoticons ( rasa bhavas) and want a good cogent argument in Text here is the one for you:
Ranganayaki wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 20:42
The more welcoming and inclusive we are, the cleaner our minds become, and the better our chance of becoming a godly people,
I don't know what they have lost by not being included. We started with great vAggEyakkaras , mutilated the compositions with non sensical sangatis. Then we said music is the empress! But we will not attend in large numbers any instrumental concert. Oh! It is beneath our ego or dignity, for us to sit in a sadas without great words being vocalized, even if we cannot make sense of them!

If sAhitya's meaning is enunciated with abhinaya in dance recitals , we won't go. Beneath our dignity to watch women move!

And finally Mridangam is just an accompaniment! It does not create music. It entertains!

And lo and behold we are supposed to be privileged upper caste elite :lol: - that have a treasure of rasikatvam with us that we have not shared with the sub-altern!

Only Marxists will ever come up such a classification! Yeah it fits their style - anthropological! What is this Mylapore Mama abandoned by his NRI children doing here?!

Even the vassal Zamindars whom we think are useless pensioners of the British look like great rasikas in front of this.

The general movie fan who enjoyed Vairamuttu looks more genuine!

As has been said, it is to the credit of the vaggEyakaras and their grand edifice, music is holding on as a parasite amidst this madness in suspended animation!

itula periya liberation philology vErA kEDU!! Declare that words are no longer important and music is suddenly accessible to all . "et tu" - that was in tamizh by the way!

Yeah that is right - the Text has caused all problems, great philological achievement, don't read it - get rid of it! Liberate from philology :lol: It is oppressive!!

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... a-5023631/
When asked about the absence of a strong instrumental tradition in Carnatic music, Krishna said while it was there earlier, the obsession with text and meend has affected the narrative.
RSR, cogent and textual enough??? :twisted:
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#64 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR » 14 Jan 2018, 15:00

#63-> No. Not yet. Still didactic. I have mentioned my view in the latest thread . ( threads should be numbered too). The admin should arrange for that).
As for Subash Chadra Bose, here is my take.
https://rsrblogs.wordpress.com/
Do you have a blog or website? You can do a better job of presenting your views on myriad topics there.
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#65 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by ram1999 » 14 Jan 2018, 17:50

RSR wrote:
14 Jan 2018, 15:00
#63-> No. Not yet. Still didactic. I have mentioned my view in the latest thread . ( threads should be numbered too). The admin should arrange for that).
As for Subash Chadra Bose, here is my take.
https://rsrblogs.wordpress.com/
Do you have a blog or website? You can do a better job of presenting your views on myriad topics there.
Whilst there could be truth in what is written, a difficult task to say which approach would have been right or wrong, the fact remains that British did not exit because of Gandhi's non violent movement or nehru's freedom fight.... it was the british economy that collapsed after the 2nd world war and it was untenable for them to govern the huge country (India). It perhaps was the timing that the entire credit has been given to gandhi / nehru.

Nevertheless, the blind faith / support that Gandhi exhibited towards Nehru and his pro Islam stand and post independence the mess that the nehru family has created / caused it is kind of becoming irreparable! :evil: :evil:
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#66 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki » 15 Jan 2018, 06:29

shankarank wrote:
14 Jan 2018, 10:07

I don't know what they have lost by not being included.
The smarter question to ask is what you will lose by not including those you are happy to exclude, in any situation.

.
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#67 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank » 15 Jan 2018, 06:49

I don't think anybody was happy to exclude anybody else. First off for people even within the mileu of the tradition ( during the so called exclusionary period) , there was not sufficient understanding. Who was the last great well known composer? Dr BMK? How many people knew Sri Ravikiran? What does it take to compose a new piece?

First you have to understand the spirit of the tradition, before you can compose on any new themes and include many more people - if you mean that's what excluded people. How in the world can you blame the Caste marks worn by musicians. I mean in India, is there that much hatred towards it? When did this start?

So first you cannot ascribe any responsibility about these exclusion. The best people outside the listener-ship of Carnatic music - who know it exists however , and this is irrespective of caste or background, could do was to make fun of it as "Aye Aye" or showing a tap and turn. Everybody in my class did that!

Have you ever lived outside the Ghetto of Carnatic music until you got out of your home?
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#68 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank » 15 Jan 2018, 07:01

Anyways here it is a moving tribute:

https://srutimag.blogspot.in/2018/01/herambanathan.html

I , a person raised listening to CM , have passed through the Ghetto - 4 years in College and 1 year in employment , without knowing that devadasis were even part of the system , and that Sri T Upendran whom I accompanied transporting him back in a vehicle after a Mardi Gras competition ( he was a Judge!) to drop him at his home, was even part of this tradition.

And the Son of K.S Kalidas was my next room neighbor in the hostel and we have talked for hour and hours about music and musicians. I did not know Smt. MSS was from this tradition until I started living in the U.S - I was told after many years!.

There is only one thing that comes close - even if it was not a well kept Secret - that of FDR's disability

http://ideas.time.com/2013/07/12/the-my ... isability/

Imagine how much considerate the people were!
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#69 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki » 15 Jan 2018, 07:52

shankarank wrote:
15 Jan 2018, 07:01
Anyways here it is a moving tribute:

https://srutimag.blogspot.in/2018/01/herambanathan.html

I , a person raised listening to CM , have passed through the Ghetto - 4 years in College and 1 year in employment , without knowing that devadasis were even part of the system , and that Sri T Upendran whom I accompanied transporting him back in a vehicle after a Mardi Gras competition ( he was a Judge!) to drop him at his home, was even part of this tradition.

And the Son of K.S Kalidas was my next room neighbor in the hostel and we have talked for hour and hours about music and musicians. I did not know Smt. MSS was from this tradition until I started living in the U.S - I was told after many years!.

Imagine how much considerate the people were!

Wow!! I'm so proud of you - really - for posting that - yeah - moving article. For even finding it!

I'm not sure what you mean by ghetto. I thought you meant Mylapore, but you speak in that context of your educational years and early employment. I knew only the bad things about devadasis that they were dedicated to temples and that they somehow became attached to men. I though abolishment was great, even for them, that they could no longer be exploited. I was barely aware that MSS came from there. I would keep forgetting and then I would occasionally remember! My eyes were opened to their importance through some other sympathetic discussion on rasikas just a few years ago.

To answer your question, I don't think I was ever in that ghetto you speak of. My childhood was spent in IIT Madras, till I was 25 or so. Is that ghetto? It was a nice inclusive place with people from all over the country and we didn't speak of the religion or the caste of other people. I had a very orthodox grandmother, though who was 75 going on 150 😊. She was 99 when she died but I don't think she had ever aged beyond 35 or 40 considering she was already 150 😂.

This article , that speech is how we should be speaking of devadasis today. With respect, and give them a platform like this to share in the bounty of cm and dance and the respect it accords to everyone in that field. But it bothers me to hear all our members I respect speak objectionably about devadasis. What they lost (your question) is a question that is impossible to answer: it is for them to tell us, we can only have some inkling of it at best. But I am surprised you would ask it after reading that moving article. May be you hadn't read it at the time..

We cannot speak of them as prostitutes and mistresses. I don't deny that some or even many of them were. But the essence of devadasis was dedication to the temple as artists who enhanced temple and social life. That they were exploited is a shame on the rest of society, not them. They were the victims.

But our culture, in addition to all its greatness, is a victimizing culture and we often have no sympathy or empathy for victims. We demand that everyone get on with it, and while it would be very nice and practical for everyone to do so, we have no understanding for those who may find it difficult to move on.

I understand that in the early days of MSS' transformation and even later, it would be very delicate to speak of her origins unless she spoke of it, not nice to bring it up unless you wanted to socially shame her, because our thoughts were not evolved enough. But in today's world, considering that we respect their innocence and their "majboori" - I am unable to come up fast enough with an apt word for it - it is high time we stopped making implicit excuses for men who exploit women and high time we stopped turning a blind eye to the abuse of power against women, sexual exploitation of women and its high time we stopped blaming all these victims.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 15 Jan 2018, 08:55, edited 2 times in total.
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#70 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki » 15 Jan 2018, 08:01

And group thinking does not work. Each of us has to make that humane change in our hearts as individuals for ourselves and our growth as more decent human beings without lazily hiding behind brahminism and other group thinking.
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#71 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank » 15 Jan 2018, 10:26

Ranganayaki wrote:
15 Jan 2018, 07:52
But our culture, in addition to all its greatness, is a victimizing culture and we often have no sympathy or empathy for victims.
Well when our culture was great actually when devadasis were integral part of it. Nithya sumangalis is how they were regarded. But where I differ is the cause of the stigma attached to them. When the rookie MA Secretary wrote about Dhannamal and Dharmapuri Subbarayar in the Hindu early 2000s, even the family was not happy about it. The stigma is not the creation of Indians ( if they were really Indians) when in fact Indians had them amidst them.

What we should be telling as well is - this is due to colonization. This is not externalizing the blame to the British. This is to blame Indians the right way , that they forgot what was their culture and they were colonized.

And what you have said about our culture ( if that is 50% of us when you grew up) , is not correct. In the face of what happened during Colonial period, even the Ghetto tried to accommodate them in so many forms and respect them, by not talking about them knowing how the entire Indian society had been transformed using Western thinking models.

So your assessment is not correct.

Now there is one more thing that is a red flag. This respect for dEvadasis is coming back riding on Marxism and the milder version of it - the liberalism and it's associated social theories , another import during Colonial era.

The street politicians who are up in arms against Vairamuttu's comments cannot be expected to nuance this to their audience. But then who created such platforms. It is the Left!! Even Indira Gandhi cannot be blamed.

Also the historical facts about Vairamuttu's comments is irrelevant to the whole discussion - even about his comments!

If there is any history that is relevant to this discussion, it is the history of Colonialism and that of the the post colonial Leftism that is relevant here.

If Brahmins of the Ghetto still had amidst them the members of the tradition and worked to protect their dignity, I don't want to now lose this legacy to the Left.


I would rather have, Brahminism , Carnatic music, and any dEvadasi legacy left, die its death, if Left is going to take over this discussion under their aegis!
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#72 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by shankarank » 15 Jan 2018, 10:45

Ranganayaki wrote:
15 Jan 2018, 07:52
It was a nice inclusive place with people from all over the country!!
Just having a mix of people for the sake of getting a prestigious degree in a campus does not make it inclusive. I have bellowed out music from K. J Jesudas cassettes - songs like Ksheera Sagara all across the hostel! I have a very loud voice. And that is not even the "Aye Aye version". Still there was not a single curious person from a diverse set of backgrounds who would stop by to ask what I was singing and what is this music.

I have done it for 4 years!

Music Club was there - but it was a Ghetto!

Of course I had some CM ghetto members during ragging, telling me that what KJY sang was not Authentic music and I should listen to X, Y or Z.

Now coming back to my hostel mates, from across many states in the country - Yeah we are all supposedly all belong to single humanity!! Nice and lovely. But the question is - were they same as me or were I same as them?!

There was this N. Ramani's student also who would play flute - nobody would ask him what is the music and find out more about it. Or get curious.

There was no diversity among them. I was not hearing Odiya music or Odiya culture talk from the Orissa guy or about HM from the UP Guy , or about kshetrayya from the Andhra guy. - mind you these were very privileged upper whatever you call them. In fact if you want to call anybody Upper Caste in the whole of India, it is these guys who had no trace of any of their culture left, their state or pan India, except some innate behaviour because their Parents were still having some Indianness left in them!

The guy from UP - last name Mishra - simply told me there is absolutely no following for HM , not even adding that "he knew of", but very categorical. He said there is no following for classical music!!

So nothing diverse was getting included there.


I had to discover kshetrayya from kriti mani mAlai after looking into Sri Rangaramanuja Iyengar's book in a Grundig tape collector's house, he some 33 years senior to me.
Ranganayaki wrote:
15 Jan 2018, 07:52
and we didn't speak of the religion or the caste of other people.
I wish people had talked about religion and their Caste traditions. I don't know what is so wrong!!!

So I guess if you were in there, you were living in a Professorial Ghetto - oh no - diverse place - where there must have been no diversity!!

You should watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yz6ZL-TC94
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#73 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by RSR » 15 Jan 2018, 11:30

shankarank » 14 Jan 2018, 05:29
RSR it is because of progressive intellectuals world over , why I have to say such irreverent things about great people. I have no other way of making my point....But I find it amusing that Marxist scholars have sold the idea of non violence to a generation of Indians, when that entire body of thought has seen significant violence!

---------
@60-> Tolstoy was a Christian Anarchist. Gandhiji was very much attracted to Tolstoy. and even had corresponsence with him, while in South Africa. ( Tolstoy was ex-communicated by the Official Church). Tolstoy was a critic of the prevailing conditions in the then Czarist Russia. but being an aristorat with vast wealth, could think of no overall solution except Philanthrophy and Trusteeship. But, that he did not give a feasible solution does not take away his contribution as a critic. Tolstoy, anusingly , could not take his passivism to the next level of Passive Revolution as Gandhiji did and frankly admitted that he was unable to understand Gandhi. ...Gandhiji in the foot steps of Jesus was a social rebel. .. Now, coming to Lenin's tribute to Tolstoy.
------------------------------
"Tolstoy not only produced artistic works which will always be appreciated and read by the masses, once they have created human conditions of life for themselves after over throwing the yoke of the landlords and capitalists; he succeeded in conveying with remarkable force the moods of the large masses that are oppressed by the present system, in depicting their condition and expressing their spontaneous feelings of protest and anger. Belonging, as he did, primarily to the era of 1861–1904, Tolstoy in his works—both as an artist and as a thinker and preacher—embodied in amazingly bold relief the specific historical features of the entire first Russian revolution, its strength and its weakness
'Tolstoy’s works express both the strength and the weakness, the might and the limitations, precisely of the peasant mass movement. His heated, passionate, and often ruthlessly sharp protest against the state and the official church that was in alliance with the police conveys the sentiments of the primitive peasant democratic masses, among whom centuries of serfdom, of official tyranny and robbery, and of church Jesuitism, deception and chicanery had piled up mountains of anger and hatred. His unbending opposition to private property in land conveys the psychology of the peasant masses during that historical period in which the old, medieval landownership, both in the form of landed estates and in the form of state “allotments”, definitely became an intolerable obstacle to the further development of the country, and when this old landownership was inevitably bound to be destroyed most summarily and ruthlessly. His unremitting accusations against capitalism—accusations permeated with most profound emotion and most ardent indignation—convey all the horror felt by the patriarchal peasant at the advent of the new, invisible, incomprehensible enemy coming from somewhere in the cities, or from somewhere abroad, destroying all the “pillars” of rural life, bringing in its train unprecedented ruin, poverty, starvation,, savagery, prostitution, syphilis—all the calamities attending the, “epoch of primitive accumulation”, aggravated a hundredfold by the transplantation into Russian soil of the most modern methods of plunder elaborated by the all powerful Monsieur Coupon
Tolstoy is dead, and the pre-revolutionary Russia whose weakness and impotence found their expression in the philosophy and are depicted in the works of the great artist, has become a thing of the past. But the heritage which he has left includes that which has not become a thing of the past, but belongs to the future. This heritage is accepted and is being worked upon by the Russian proletariat. The Russian proletariat will explain to the masses of the toilers and the exploited the meaning of Tolstoy’s criticism of the state, the church, private property in land—not in order that the masses should confine themselves to self-perfection and yearning for a godly life, but in order that they should rise to strike a new blow at the tsarist monarchy and landlordism, which were but slightly damaged in 1905, and which must be destroyed. The Russian proletariat will explain to the masses Tolstoy’s criticism of capitalism—not in order that the masses should confine themselves to hurling imprecations at capital and the rule of money, but in order that they should learn to utilise at every step in their life and in their struggle the technical and social achievements of capitalism, that they should learn to weld themselves into a united army of millions of socialist fighters who will over throw capitalism and create a new society in which the, people will not be doomed to poverty, in which there will be no exploitation of man by man."
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That is for your amazement at Marxists praising Gandhiji. Consider Gandhiji as a tactician for building a massive anti-imperialist mass movement from cape comorin to Peshawar, ( a fact conceded by finest revolutionaries of Hindusthan Socialist Republican Association HSRA ( BCVOHRA, BISMIL, CHANDRASEKAR AZAD, AZAFULLA KHAN,(
http://rsramaswamy.blogspot.in/2013/03/ ... onary.html
An excerpt from that noble manifesto "" it has become a fashion these days to indulge in wild and meaningless talk of non-violence.
Mahatma Gandhi is great and we mean no disrespect to him if we express our emphatic disapproval of the methods advocated by him for our country's emancipation.
We would be ungrateful to him if we do not salute him for the immense awakening that has been brought about be his non-cooperation movement in the country.

But to us the Mahatma is an impossible visionary.
Non-violence may be a noble ideal, but is a thing of the morrow.

We can, situated as we are, never hope to win our freedom by mere nonviolence.

The world is armed to the very teeth. And the world is too much with us.
All talk of peace may be sincere, but such false ideology.
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Ranganayaki
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#74 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by Ranganayaki » 15 Jan 2018, 11:35

Sankarank, what I said about our culture is not about anything historical. It is about how we are today. We have no compassion for victims.

I really don't understand what you are ranting and raving about other people in your hostel for. Did you really expect people to ask what you were singing? And were you any less confrontational as a student?

Culture is hardly all about music, dance, arts. All that is secondary. Culture is mainly about how we treat others.

I had a nice life with my community growing up and you don't know anything about it.

About speaking of caste and religion, you are wrong. We were children, and it is important to inculcate a sense of unity and oneness first before drawing attention to differences. You don't sound very satisfied with anything, always ranting and raving about differences, divisive ideologies!! And "Professorial ghetto!!!" Yes, Sankarank, I lived in a ghetto of good things, to put it in terms you like. I really hope that satisfies you ☺️.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 15 Jan 2018, 12:46, edited 1 time in total.
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kvjayan
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#75 Re: Vairamuthu lands in controversy for speech on Andal

Post by kvjayan » 15 Jan 2018, 11:47

"Meanwhile, Mr. Vairamuthu clarified that he had used the word devadasi (Servant of God) in the same positive connotation as the original authors Professors MGS Narayanan and Kesavan Veluthat did in the article ‘Bhakti Movement in South India’."

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... 438395.ece

It is not clear if these Profs. are from "Indiana University" (as quoted earlier by the poet) or the "American Scholar" (as quoted by scroll.in). Perhaps the poet was misled by some left-liberal intellectuals or he thought that he can get away by tossing out some yankee connection, by way of authoritative reference.
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