Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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RSR
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#101 Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by RSR »

@Nick H
Madam Ranganayaki may be right in informing that the Trinity of western 'classical' era , had created a few for vocal rendering too.
and I am right in calling the period 1750-1850 as 'classical ' according to the standard definition. The preponderance of instrumental music and orchestration in 'classical' music is readily noticeable. vocal renditions of Beethovan are very rare. Exceptions do not make the rule.
Thyagaraja Swami is credited with Prahladha bakthi vijayam , mixture of dialogs and kruthis. but primarily he created kruthis only.

My post had about ten points, the first one was about WCM.
I wish that the subsequent points were replied.

Temperamentally, I am rooted in the mid-early centuries when classical music took root in tamil country . and my interest stops with the Trinity. They had given enough and we are yet to LEARN their music fully.

If my definition was wrong- it certainly was not- others are at liberty to give better links for information.

Strident know-all tone cannot be accepted.

I am using an article that I have mentioned and quoted in my website 4carnaticmusic.
I will locate and give the link, where a westerner looks at CM
------------------
http://www.medieval.org/music/world/car ... /music/tml
https://sites.google.com/site/4carnatic ... -westerner

look for the beginning sentences in the second para
2) http://www.medieval.org/music

Ranganayaki
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#102 Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 18:09 @Nick H
Madam Ranganayaki may be right in informing that the Trinity of western 'classical' era , had created a few for vocal rendering too.
1. Afaik there is no particular trinity in western classical music.

2.
a few for vocal rendering too.
A few!!! Those were numerous major works!

and I am right in calling the period 1750-1850 as 'classical ' according to the standard definition.


Since RSR is dealing -on this topic - in ignorance and opinion rather than fact, I have nothing more to say in response. Thanks.

Ranganayaki
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#103 Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Ranganayaki »

ganesh_mourthy wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 14:52
In fact, I retired with admission that I betrayed my own suggestion.
Ok, I didn’t notice that you’d retired. It’s easy to get drawn into a discussion.. Most threads here go off, like this one, into repeated tangents. “Mind is a Colony of (something)” is a terrible example of that.
But then the thread went off a VERY SUDDEN tangent to classical and people were responding including you. I first thought that it was an error and RSR posted here by mistake and you were all adding posts to it. You .. shankarank , Nick ....
Well , leave it .. it is no big mistake. I am the king of mistakes. .....
Yes. But if I wanted to fix that misunderstanding (or so I thought) about the definition of “classical music”, where was I to respond? I did think of starting a new thread, may be I should have done that. 🙂
that Classical topic can be a separate thread and this thread has saturated. Since I opened this useless thread, do I have the right to close the business here. I wonder ?!!
Personally I wish you would/could 😂. Anyway I really didn’t mean to throw flames at you, I just found your contribution ironic. For others, it’s habitual. In fact I appreciated your sincere, respectful way you were trying to deal with others in a thread just before this one.

ganesh_mourthy
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#104 Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Ranganayaki

Thank you. I keep anchored to a certain coolness. Thank you for reminding me. I will keep it up, Meet you all in some other thread.
Now, this is closed 8-)

RSR
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#105 Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by RSR »

I have given a link to a reputed website on music ---medieval.org
Any field is a vast ocean and most of us are just hobbyists and no expert R&D workers. My approach is to learn from real scholars through their works and writings and combine the facts with my own perceptions. and absorb the best from the scholars . So, we must always cite renowned authors from the past in asserting things. medieval.org is one such site.

My entry into this thread was prompted by shankarank's indirect jibe at people who separate the importance of words from melody. As this has been a bone of contention for a long time, I had to make the post in defending my stand that melody is the prime component in high-level music.

Wiki is a quick and easy reference for information. And it is not correct to brush it off just like that. Most of the information given there are correct and confirmed by other texts .

There is no section on Western Classical music in this forum. I suggest that we can have one to educate the beginners in that field.

I am planning to begin a thread on 'basics of Western Classical music ' with focus on 'classical' and romantic ' era only and giving information about the leading composers of the period from historical perspective and time line.

There is no 'trinity' in CM either. It is just a term coined by scholars to denote the leading creators of CM ( Shyama Sastry , ThyagarajaSwami and MD). They lived in the East India company period in Tamil country. ( 1750-1850)

'Tamil moovar' also is a word coined to denote the Muthu Thandavar, and Arunachala kavi and Marimutha Pillai
.
Though Gopala Krushna Barathy also created kruthis entirely in Tamil, he is not included in the term /tamil moovar'. No disrespect to him. Just a convention.
Similarly, other composers who were more or less contemporaries of the CM trinity are not referred to by that name. For example, Swathi ThirunaaL.

Likewise, in Western Cassical music there are clear demarcations. like Medieval music, Baroque, 'classical' , 'romantic' and subsequent 'era' and styles.

Just as the Trinity define the CM , the three major composers of the classical and romantic ( slight overlapping there) can be referred to as the Trinity of WCM.
If we search wiki for composers of western classical music, we get a mind-bogging number of names. I am sure that none in this forum is even familiar with those names and their distinctness and contributions.

I have tried to explain why my post was not an attempt to derail the thread but a response. At least I talked about music and not this and that personality which borders on just gossip stuff.

With all the modern search engine facilities, one can create a very impressive article by copy-paste method and name-dropping to sound very scholarly. I am not bulldozed by such things which do not cite a single reference.

I have a certain considered theoretical approach which I have articulated often and consistently. and in my websites and posts here.

I hold that any counterpoint should not be made in haste and hate and should offer a positive statement in 'theory plane as overall perspective. couched in polite language . When I find some 'wrong ideas and information ', I would just say that the info 'seems to be wrong '. citing references

Thanks and Bye

ganesh_mourthy
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#106 Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Though this is a gibberish thread, it had some good inputs from RSR , Ranganayaki and later Nick wanting to add something. Is it possible to export just those posts out, and construct them into another thread so that it thrives. ???

How to do it?

SrinathK
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#107 Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by SrinathK »

@ganesh.mourthy , By must have now learnt the actual meaning of a certain statement by George Bernard Shaw :twisted:

If you want it stop or move it to lounge, why don't you email srkris?

ganesh_mourthy
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#108 Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

GBS told loads of gibberish things himself :D and what is that you are referring here to ?

I think this is too silly a task to write to admin. and this need not go to lounge. It is a subject to discuss.

Let me make a thread and cut and copy in order of respective post into a separate thread with reference to each of them. Let me see how it works. I will do it tomorrow.

Ranganayaki
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#109 Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Ranganayaki »

ganesh_mourthy wrote: 21 Nov 2020, 13:28
I think this is too silly a task to write to admin. and this need not go to lounge. It is a subject to discuss.

Let me make a thread and cut and copy in order of respective post into a separate thread with reference to each of them. Let me see how it works. I will do it tomorrow.
Please don’t bother. It is not worth it, it turned out to be nothing more than an argument that does not need to be memorialized.

ganesh_mourthy
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#110 Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

perfecto !

shankarank
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#111 Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by shankarank »

Actually, the western classical historians resorting to imagining a classical period, is just revivalism of sorts (in their minds) after dark ages where they almost destroyed every thing!

A similar experience of discontinuity, in BharatIya sangIta sampradAya exists, where due to upheavals and destruction, we have lost continuity with forms prevalent earlier. But due to the sangIta Sastra tradition, an underlying philosophical connection exists.

Ranganayaki
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#112 Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Ranganayaki »

Ok.

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