How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
sankark
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#51 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by sankark »

@shankarank : one only hopes that you continue to write like the last post.

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#52 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by sankark »

vedic rituals: Thiruvalluvar says அவி சொரிந்து ஆயிரம் வேட்டலின் too. But that's a comparison to say not killing for food is far better than vElvi. He isn't asking to stop the ritual/practice. The point of rituals/tradition is to keep it alive. Let that not rot.

A grihya hOmam on 13th day for example forces a family to focus on ritual and come out of the sorrow of losing kith &kin. To move on with life.

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#53 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

p-50
@sankark
" why no clamor for SS / MD"---
possibly because, Thyagaraja Swami had more than 35 disciples. and taught over a very long period of nearly 50 years. So very illustrious that even SS sent his son Subbaraya Sastry to learn under the Sathguru. He never traveled much outside his place. Disciples came from KeraLa and Andhra. too. It was the direct and second generation disciples of Swamy who took CM to the public . If we prepare a list of direct disciples of Thyagaraja Swami and the second and third generation disciples, it will run into hundreds. SS did not have that many. MD was at best a family tree. ..Thus, around 1900, CM was synonymous with Sathguru.

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#54 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

p-52
@sankark
VaLLuvar tried to synthesize the best of Vedic Brahminism and Jainism. of his times. Even in 600 BC, almost 50% of Vedic brahmins had accepted the absolute non-violence of Gauthama Buddha and Mahavira. (Kosambi).
Since VaLLuvar is being quoted , there are hundreds of quotes from him which ridicule external symbols and practices - 'Neettalum Mazhitthalum vaeNda'.
" anthaNar enboar aRavor!
evvuyirkum chenthaNmai pooNdu ozhukalaan'
( people who treat all living beings with kindness and fairness are the JUST people.. ) 'anthaNar here may refer to jain monks.
During the Sangam period ( 200 BC to 200 AD)- corresponding exactly to the Sathavahana Dynasty rule in Decaan ( Andhra, Telengana, Southern Madhyapradesh, KarNatka, Maharashtra), jain, buddhist and Vedic brahmin missionaries did there propaganda work 'Dravida Sangam ' is said to have been set up by a Jain monk. All the Five big kavya ( kaappiyangal) were either Jain or Buddhist.
The kings patronized the Vedic people but the common people were all jains / Buddhists. This was the condition in entire tamil country and deccan. upto the emergence of Gupta. Only after 600 AD, Bakthi movement asserted itself against all the above three from North . The 'ainthiNai' religion of the Tamils became the religion of the people since then.

( An instance of a religious ideology being re-asserted by people's language)
Jains resided in caves and served the common people in medicine and education.
According to Tholkaappiyam, the Vedic brahmins of that period had only six life-activities..
1) katral - learning
2) kaRpitthal - teaching
3) dhaanam peruthal - getting gifts
4) dhaanam seythal - giving gifts
5) vaeLvi seythal - performing ritual agni oblations' ( may be including 'cow sacrifice! ( there is a telling passage in MaNimekalai)
6) vaeLvi seyvitthal ( being the priest for the aristocrats and rich in their ritual oblations.
-----
Significantly, there is no mention about socially productive labour especially manual labour1 in agriculture and crafts.
Sometimes, NCERT books are useful to shatter the myths.
Even to this day, the Vedic Advaitic mutts have no role in the Saivite, vaishnavite and other temples of tamil country.

shankarank
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#55 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

SrI dIkshitar's vizha is celebrated in small way at eTTayapuram and of late some young musicians in concert circuit are going there. I am not privy to earlier years that much and may be musicians did go there. That is not as cezhippu (fertile) as the delta region , in fact arid! Hence not much involvement of locals. I know some near relatives from West nellai who make it there every year to sing.

SrI dIkshitar must have left Tanjore right after the Serfoji's weakening period. If Tanjore were not so weak and dIkshitar had stayed back, may be history of his music would be different. Who knows? He is somebody who needed endowment and that is what rasikas and patrons of today must realize.

Without some endowment even Sri tyAgarAja could not have done what he did!

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#56 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by sankark »

shankarank wrote: 23 Feb 2021, 13:37Without some endowment even Sri tyAgarAja could not have done what he did!
Sri T was a nadhayOgi that had no need for an endowment, nor wife/kid, and such human needs. If you hadn't realised that, what can one do except take to Twitter/fb and call out your blasphemic thought with #TWasNadhaYogi and bray for your cancellation (woke, woke, woke).

:evil: :twisted:

shankarank
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#57 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

Not you, but to the wokes : nAda yOgi - I understand. But SarIram manuShya SarIram tAnE? He had a place to stay and he was not in the forest. That was grant from erstwhile king to his forefathers. Lets just acknowledge that!

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#58 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

This is from the First of Jayadeva Ashtapathi
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") O Kesava! O Lord of the universe! O Lord Hari, who have assumed the form of Buddha! All glories to You! O Buddha of compassionate heart, you decry the slaughtering of poor animals performed according to the rules of Vedic sacrifice
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Jayadeva- Orissa- around 1000 AD
Imperial Chozha period? -expedition to Bengal along the East Coast?
Last edited by RSR on 23 Feb 2021, 23:31, edited 1 time in total.

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#59 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

P-56
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Thyagaraja Swami's forefathers were granted a house and some paddy fields also. by the king. He had a steady and growing number of very loyal students. His personal needs were very few. His 'unchavrutthi' was a tradition. In those times, 1750-1850 ( East India Company rule), 'gurukula vaasam' meant that the students will stay with the Guru's household and will be fed by him.
The yield from his lands must have been used for that. He is not known to have received any fees nor to have had a patron.
That must have been the way of learning CM even in the decades from 1850 to 1920

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#60 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

The presence and attention of students and a vibrant gurukulam itself is endowment in those days. Any services they render is part of the same. Their presence will encourage somebody to step in, in the event of resource constraints. In a related way, different stream : Even now, few Srauta mahatmas are there in the villages, I suppose they will be endowed by somebody!

Today you cannot get students with that type of commitment. So in a sense that aspect of endowment is strained.

There ain't a free lunch! The greats will pursue their path irrespective. But for us to receive the benefit, we need to provide endowment of some sort.

The so called fees demanded by musicians today is very reasonable for most people. It may have been out of reach in 70s. Lets not create artificial constraints and expectations!

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#61 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

In the olden days, supporting and encouraging talented artistes was done by the kings, zamindars, merchants and landlords.
Times have changed. Compared to 1857, we now have nearly 1000 institutes of Higher Leraning not to mention thousands more of schools all over the South.
If we take a statistical survey of literacy among the people in the age group, 10 to 20, it will be close to 100 %.
This is the greatest achievement of the last sixty years. and it was done by Government.
The latest budget here has made a substantial allocation for on-line education and made computer-literacy compulsory in schools! In Andhra, English has been made compulsory.
These are true democratic moves and far-sighted in breaking the monopoly of the traditionally privileged in getting the fruits of learning.
We do teach basic sciences and technology. Was there not a time when computer training centers sprang up like mushrooms all over the land? It did provide skilled resources .
Teaching CM compulsorily to school children irrespective of their caste and class ( without any examination) is not against tuition. as a means of livelihood. May be it will give opportunity to thousands to serve as fairly well-paid teachers.
I think, enough has been said on the main theme of this thread.
over,

shankarank
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#62 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 22 Feb 2021, 19:06 p-48
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This thread is not about the concert format at all. It is about the best way to pay homage to Thyagaraja Swami. Naturally, any such function should comprise of singing his compositions plainly as created by him.
That rules out 'Manodharma' sangeetham in the fubction's platform.
The idea that singing a composition does not involve manOdharma is false. Individual performances that follow do embed that.
RSR wrote: 22 Feb 2021, 19:06 I believe that Thyagaraja Swami 's compositions are a combination of Music as an art and lyrics as a guide to personal ethics and anti-casteism, . The Nama Sankeerthanam movement never discriminated against any community.

I cannot understand why anyone should object to the idea of teaching classical music to the agricultural community through the simple compositions of Thyagaraja Swami.
If thousands if not lakhs of children, youth and elders of the agricultural community of the area, irrespective of their caste , participate not just as onlookers but as performers of Swami's compositions in group singing, and if we can make it happen in a decade, there can be no better homage.

Typical revisionism to suit one's caste and class approach.
Nothing whatever to do with the great idealists and seers.

Discrimination is a term used in the context of institution or imperial setup. No such thing ever existed in the context of what you are discussing. Groups of people were free to adopt their ways, but some times group affinity and sense of relation or sense of belonging may act as impediments. As much as you decry "Caste" which is a racial term imposed on us, the jAti system also had social capital built into it, and jAtis formed their own quasi-institutions. Many of them do have their maTams. And indeed they have patronized music. It is the strength of those that determined what the associated people could adopt.

We just use euphemisms like "cultivating communities" to hide the complexity and vitriolic political discourse that have done immense damage to the situation, where they were better positioned before to get improvements, but lost it.

And you say onlookers! They don't listen? They have ears. Well people are busy doing what they are doing in all "jAtis" and not every one can open their ears.

As regards your question on vaishNava followers of various communities in Western belt of tamizhnADu, that region lacked the strong brahmadEya influence that Tanjore had. Even in Thirunelveli and Travancore it could percolate due to patronage of erstwhile vassal kings. Or at least it has to be an active vibrant temple town like Kanchi. While brahmadEya itself is not directly related to music practice, support for music is also done in the context of supporting things like that. And brahmins held the Sastra knowledge, even if they did not perform!

The west is sort of isolated. We have a Thiru PeriyasAmi Thooran(He is a Saivaite though) or others occasionally come from there. Or a Sri C. RAjagOpAlAccAriyAr. avar nATTukkum, pATTukum kurai vaikkavillai(didn't leave a deficiency for that region or music). He composed at least one song I know :D . I tell you among tamizh rasikas, that one song beats everything and makes the day! Nothing else matters. :D

That tells you it is not any "bhakti" movement that is the basis of this, even though that makes for exalted projection.

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#63 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

p-62
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1) I have very carefully avoided the use of the term 'caste' . but the reality is that our society in thamizhnaadu is entirely revolving around castes. Fortunately, there are more than 20 communities competing and complimenting. To name a few of the agricultural communities, there are yadavs, vanniyars, kaLLars, udayars, gounders, maravars, and nadars, among the bc. and three majoe communities among the depressed classes. The cauvery delta has a stunning majority of these bc and sc communities. close to 85 %. The CM narrative of the brahmin and Isai-Vellalar group in Tanjore delta ( even in the early decades of last century -1900-1940- were numerically meager),always spins around these. Nagarathars may be patrons but how many of them are artistes? why so?theie pre-ocupations are elsewhere. .

it was only the saiva-non-brahmin communities like pillais, mudaliyars, and nagarathaars that have the mutts. and they foster pre-cm classical music mainly of temples. and hardly in telugu.
The cultivating communities had none.

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2) western ghats region- of naicker , rajus, --your data is wrong. Srivilliputhur, Rajapalayam, sankaran koil, even kayattar, .
students of tamil history may know about 'chinnamnur copper plates' and the fertile lands of north-flowing' vaigai river (!), before the vaigai dam. vembathur was renowned even in 1800, for ita musicians -contemporaries of maha vaidyanatha sivan, ssp author and patnam.
is there any cm activity in those areas after the zamin abolition? no.
was any attempt made to teach the really bc and sc communities ?
no.
Even HMB found running the cm school at Madurai, difficult. It was short-lived.
Only the state government can accomplish this huge task.. Educating the majority of poorer bc and sc agricultural communities in science, literature, civics and ethics. and classical music.
Thamizhnaadu is not Chennai . or mylai. or adyar.
Think out of the box.

The pseudo-progressive

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#64 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

The state government are already running a music university! What prevents them from extending that down to the primary education? So nothing in law prevented them in engaging in the teaching and propagation of traditional music! if there was anything, they would not be doing what they are doing? So what are they waiting for?

Germany defied and falsified all theories of social / political revolutions under economic breakdown! ;)

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#65 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

p-64
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@shankarank
1) why cannot esteemed forum members campaign and advice the TN govt to introduce CM and Thyagaraja kruthis in primary schools all over the state? - compulsory subject without examination. Do we not have sports, crafts, without examination.?

2) That would be different from music schools
.
3) Valmiki RaamayaNam and Mahabaaratham are the greatest epics of India. Bagavatham is a later addition. RamAyaNam teaches very good ethical values. rather than the other works.
No 'Samayanithi' saadhinchane stuff.

4) Thyagaraja Swami followed Badrachalam Raamadasu in his Rama Bakthi saamraajyam.

5) There is a lovely reference to Rama's discussion at Dhanushkodi
( aha naanooru)

6) Silappathikaaram also refers to Lord Rama through Kavunthi AdikaL, a lady jain bikkuNi

7) Who among the real Tamils has not heard and read atleast a few passages from Kamba RaamaayaNam? Unmatched literary excellence
.
8) Has not Arunachala Kavi created his Rama Naatakam for village people?

9) Have not many vocalists even among the present generation rendered songs from AruNaachala Kavi?

10) Has not Smt.MS rendered a few from Kamba RaamaayaNam?

11) Had not an unmatched freedom fighter, reformist, socialist, orator and 'red' leader Com. P.Jeevaanandham given great many public speeches in his political rallies on RaamaayaNam, which were so spell-binding, that even Kalaignar had confessed to have listened covering his identity?

12) Would it not be an effective antidote to the ethical degeneration we see all around us?

13) Will it not be a binding factor of all the common people in the states of TN, Andhra and Telengana?

14) By learning Telugu through these kru'this, will not the younger generation be exposed to Shyama Sastry also?
============================================
15) As for the un-related , arrogant and ignorant quip and cavemen
toolkit about Germany's HISTORY, people have not forgotten the horrors of the second world war, and the great victory of FDR and Soviet forces over the Nazi hordes. Ask today's Angela Marcel , what she thinks of neo-nazis in Germany. Why-...…. ask your own neighbors in USA. Learn History. Get out of your 'crossbelt-american diaspora ghetto'
---------------------------------------------------. .
Mere sophistry posing as sophistication.
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#66 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

You are viewing things in their own ghetto classifications. While the manifestation of an ideology in it's full form is one thing, there are underlying civilizational factors , things that are not typically viewed as controversial, that underlies how each culture conducts itself. Here I am referring to the positive side. I only stated that to point out how invalid sociological theories are , that claim universality to themselves.

And you have reduced SrI tyAgarAja's acceptability to the acceptability of "Ram" as an icon in tamizh land. That indicates the shallow and cosmetic approaches in our discourse.

What about other states? In Karnataka do they do this? In Maharashtra do they teach abhangs? In the north Surdas, tulsi ramayan and Kabir? What about Andhra? Bengal - Rabindra sangeeth?
Last edited by shankarank on 28 Feb 2021, 00:53, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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#67 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 27 Feb 2021, 10:26 Why-...…. ask your own neighbors in USA. Learn History. Get out of your 'crossbelt-american diaspora ghetto'
Well, well as regards neighbours you never know what is hiding these days given the happenings recently. And cosmopolitanism means you don't know your neighbor. We only connect as consumers via amazon, when we read product reviews.

And that second thing, cross belt from tamilnad are one of the most educated, enlightened, liberal, world citizens , secular you can find. They never would think deeply about such issues. And hence there is no such ghetto. Some devout vaishNavas are exempt from this.

I am also secular, if secular means worldly pleasures! But if it acts as a staging area to position cultural heritage and domesticate it, I would argue with that.

The US constitution or independence declaration swears " one nation under god". But they are careful when it comes to music and art. That needs to be kept away from challenging the ideological establishment, which the US constitutional system fronts, even though the latter is deemed secular.
shankarank wrote: 27 Feb 2021, 00:35The state government are already running a music university! What prevents them from extending that down to the primary education?
Now with that background lets answer this question as to why at college and why not at primary school. You are positioning this as an agenda for teaching ethics. Whereas the intellectual establishment along with other socio political forces post independence know that: children raised with music will also sense the metaphysics of the culture and challenge the former's own narratives. You should have heard the old saying: "kuzhandaiyum deivamum onRu" - the child is closer to the divine!

By the time of college, it is an elective major field of study, by the student and they are sufficiently alienated ( unless the family gave them alternative grounding) and unhinged , so the "art" education can be provided harmlessly.

It also allows them tick the boxes as regards support for "Indian" music which mostly if anything feeds labor into popular entertainment industry.

So this is not about "atheism" Vs. "theism". This is a calculated purge of a civilization under the aegis of a constitutional system which also in it's undercurrent inherits the alien ideological worldview. This is clash of civilizations and the battlegrounds are subtle and sublime!

You need to do the pUrva paksh correctly.

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#68 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

@shankarank

1)Leaving aside the Boat song kruthis, of doubtful authorship, almost 90% of Thyagaraja Swami kruthis are about Lord Ramachandra.
and even the songs on Kovur and Thiruvotriyur deities and even Srirangam and Lalgudi were composed very late in his life during his tour at the invitation of Upanishad Swamy of Kanchipuram.
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2) Thulasidas Ramayanam is the most well-known and venerated epic-retold in the most populous state of India, the Uttar Pradesh
If you have read ' Towards Freedom', ( autobiography) of Jawaharlal, it was the battle cry of the Kisan Movement of 1920's in UP. led by Jawahar himself in person.
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3) Thyagaraja Swami, 's inspiration, the Naama Sankeerthanam movement in Tanjore delta , was centered around RaamAyNnam.
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4) There is a subtle difference between Vaishnava movement based on RamaayaNam and the one based on Mahabaratham and Gita and the one based on Baagavatham -most parts and finally Baagavatham of Rasa Kreeda. The first two are backed by the original epics,
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5) Ever heard of Liberation Theology of Latin America? All ethical values are derived from Religion. It is the orthodox priestly class of all the great religions who corrupted them and used religious orthodoxy as a weapon against common people.
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Hippies have no country. True Internationalists!
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As for the other states, nowhere else is crude atheism prevalent.
except in cinema -infected cities and among 'yippies'. That is why TN needs a conscious effort. by Government . And sundahara Thelungu of Baarathy, and songs of Thyagaraja are so full of Sanskrit terms that may be, it is best method to familiarize Sanskrit to the youngest children all over TN. .
How about Ramanavami sabha in Bangalore?

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#69 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

@RSR p#68 Since you talked about the state intervening to make music compulsory in schools I asked in p#64 whether the state run schools in other states have any such program or curriculum related to their own heritage music? You did not answer that , but went on a tangent to something else.

Kamba RAmAyaNam is venerated in TN including by self proclaimed atheists. Doesn't mean a thing. And atheism has no sense or meaning in Bharatam. We don't spray beliefs here! So there is no reason to proclaim anything. If they want to claim atheism they should do so against other alien faiths. Everything else said on this matter by anybody is a misunderstanding or lack of understanding on how so much of alien concepts have percolated into our discourse and corrupted our language itself! A new language has been imposed on us. If you really look for "religions" by converting what is actually heritage into religious doctrines, you will have 400 distinct religions or so in BhAratam!

Now answer my question. Before TN should intervene to make SrI tyAgarAjA compulsory in schools, what have other states, where there ain't any self proclaimed "atheists", done to make their heritage music compulsory?? What if any prevents them?

RamAyaNa and ethics:
1. pitru vAkya paripAlanam
Indian sea faring traders had a such a reputation with far east and near east, that the son would fulfil any debt or pending transaction without fail , if father had passed away as it would be six months or so before they can reach back the same port. "Credibility in business"

2. Stability theory in management
A small mishap or mistake can destabilize a large institution or organization. What just one Woman said to the other destabilized an entire Rajya leading to King's death.

3. Societal stability
The value of one man and one woman relationship was first enunciated here.

You see , you will elevate the discourse to civilizational level. Instead it is now story : Ram went to forest and killed Ravana and brought back his wife. And that is also a myth. None other than SubrahmaNya Bharathy - kurangu kaDalai taNDuvatum(Monkey jumping across a sea), anil (Squirrel) paalam kaTTuvatum (building a bridge) karpanai (imagination) enakkaNDEn.

And there was a musician in e-mambalam panagal park lecture who made fun of neraval being done @ kapi vAriti dATTuna and mistranslated kaliki rOTa kaTTuna as Squirril building a bridge :lol: . A svaraprastAram will end up as pa-da mA kapi - I am monkey!! he surmised :lol:

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#70 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

p-69
@shankarank

1) The answer to your question is 'no. As CM is music of the four Southern states,
These states all had renowned and effective social reformers. but based on Religion. and not management-speak.
Nothing wrong with myths. if used for good purpose.

a) KeraLa's reformer was Sri.NaraayaNa guru who established many Siva temples.
. And the deity of Kerala is Padhmanaabaswami of Trivandrum from hoary past. EKNayanaar (ex-cm) presented the copy of Gita when he met the Pope at Vatican, saying that Gita is the Bible of India.
Swathi ThiruNaaL has sung on Rama. .
b) The music tradition of Karnataka is that of Dasa saint composers. Even without formal music education, they are imbibing the best social values.
c) Thirumalai Venkateswara is the deity for Andhra families and of late Annamayya kruthis are getting known widely.

In Telengana, likewise, Badrachalam Ramadasu songs are the standard.
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Granted that so far , the state govts have not made Thyagaraja kruthis compulsory in schools. Andhra and Telengana can easily do that . as it is their mother tongue.
But rather difficult in predent-day TN. but not impossible if a suggestion is made.
The question to be asked is if the suggestion is good for society.

If there is no examination in Thyagaraja kruthi and Telugu, most people will endorse. The attempt should be made
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Your story line is wrong.

Hanuman is 'sundharan' and the most blemishless in Raamaayanam.
Many so-called men are daily disproving Darwin's theory of evolution. mere 'human' beings in form but varaaham in their tastes.
---
If we refuse to sing any kruthi based on mythology, only the 'romantic' film songs will remain. and perhaps the jaavaLis

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#71 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 28 Feb 2021, 21:52 1) The answer to your question is 'no. As CM is music of the four Southern states,
Why you have suddenly confined to CM, when you enlarged into Bhakti movement and all that? Whatever be the actual historical classification of those, religious etc., why can't they simply treat it as heritage and include it in curriculum. That will reinforce what the child may already get elsewhere, that these are legitimate things to be cherished. What the child is getting is, one narrative in private space and cultural spaces and a counter narrative based on critical theories at school!

Rationalists (you can hear them mocking!) here are not able to reconcile a "pittA pirai sUDi" ( Moon adorning Siva's forehead) described in tEvArams with [:cough:] a Neil Amstrong who landed on it, in a different classroom. So the former already are part of curriculum as literature , not music!

So you will have to deal with such silliness!

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#72 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 11:10 p-62
----
. Nagarathars may be patrons but how many of them are artistes? why so?theie pre-ocupations are elsewhere. .
Even the current patron ( not from nagarathar) Dr. Nalli , but from weaving (Padmashali as per Wikipedia) has mentioned that all of his family will only watch drams and not inclined to music. Their mother toungue may be Telugu in fact!
RSR wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 11:10 --------------------
2) western ghats region- of naicker , rajus, --your data is wrong. Srivilliputhur, Rajapalayam, sankaran koil, even kayattar, .
That is not really the West I was talking about, that is too thin a belt. RajapALayam only had the Rajas (Madras cements) that are devotees of Sringeri mutt. No other affiliation to traditions that I aware of.

What with Srivilliputtur? You tell me! Many legendary musicians recall performing there in recent times! You know even a strong sampradaya like Sri VaishNavism there could not absorb music. What could be the reason?

RSR wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 11:10 students of tamil history may know about 'chinnamnur copper plates' and the fertile lands of north-flowing' vaigai river (!), before the vaigai dam. vembathur was renowned even in 1800, for ita musicians -contemporaries of maha vaidyanatha sivan, ssp author and patnam.
I have heard of an Andipatti Zamindar who was a patron of music. I see that he patronized RR Sabha in Trichy.

RSR wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 11:10 is there any cm activity in those areas after the zamin abolition? no.
was any attempt made to teach the really bc and sc communities ?
no.
We know what happened around that! And when privy purposes were abolished. Who took over the education system of the country? Well in that region, a cultivating person cannot speak much first and then comes tamizh! Musicians hailing from there must have gravitated to other places. As regards the telugu people who may be there, that is very spotty. Naickanur is an appendage to many places. My Grandpa had served in railways and was posted there. During my childhood days we had farming relationships. It is very remote and animal sacrifice type of old fashioned worship continues there.

Lakshmana Suri and vaTRirAyiruppu are mentioned somewhere! Didn't HMB escape from there to Thiruvaiyaru? he was asked NOT to pursue music!
RSR wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 11:10 Even HMB found running the cm school at Madurai, difficult. It was short-lived.
...... Thamizhnaadu is not Chennai . or mylai. or adyar.
Think out of the box.
HMB's time is too late in the game!

After the zamin abolition, the new oppressors are the lawyers who supported the music. Even the Madurai legal fraternity would gravitate to the capital city. When I call lawyers, oppressors, does it sting? On the one hand we need all the elites to front and run the country, but we bash them if they pursue higher goals like music using their own resources. Somehow a picture has been created that only cultivators own the country. Don't forget there are jawans too! Kisan/Jawan are complimentary!

And in peace time who can pursue soft power of the state? The elites?

ram1999
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#73 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by ram1999 »

How to hijack any thread .....

learn from ShankaranK and RSR.
The subject topic and the discussions seem to have no relevance. Not sure what is the objective of these discussions :? :? :? :?

shankarank
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#74 Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

Have some patience! We are still trying to figure out who to bring to make a worthy homage to the saint. All because of this year's disastrous performance. I have made my pitch! But since it touched on vedas and yagnas, alternative counter agendas entered the discussion.

But we never know:
https://www.thehindu.com/features/frida ... 340068.ece

In fact, a joke used to do the rounds a few years ago, that while buses and cars were plying full to Tiruvaiyaru, one bus carried a lone, troubled-looking man travelling in the opposite direction. On enquiry, it was found that the man was Tyagaraja, who was fleeing the onslaught of good, bad and indifferent musical fare offered on his Aradhana!

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