Deserving personalities to whom SK was not awarded & reasons

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 01 Mar 2013, 11:08

Folks: Sorry--I made a statement that never in the annals of MA's history there have been sishyas of the same guru bing honored in successive years. I stand corrected--I think KVN and B Rajam Iyer were honored in successive years--although KVN was younger to BR he was honored first and by now the BR story of tenacious canvassing is familiar to forumites--the threat was real and SSI's comment -- about MA not wanting to take a chance and give him the SK--is true!!!

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 01 Mar 2013, 12:26

Lakshman must have become a member of the Academy Library, not of the Academy itself, because even in the 1930s, the yearly Academy membership was Rs.100/ and as MKR points out must have been Rs.5000/ in the 1970s, 80s. Now it should certainly be a bigger amount.

Dr.V.Raghavan's name was proposed in the year 1968. And after his name was not taken up (or rejected), MS was chosen that year. With that kind of 'performer' criteria they should not have considered Sambamurthy too. But he was the 1972 SK.

Musiri was a Vice-President of the Academy for a few years until his death in 1975. After which, SSI was appointed Vice-President and continued till, if I remember right, 1995. Then he retired at the very young age of 87.

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 01 Mar 2013, 20:22

In 1978 when TN CM MGR inaugurated the Music Academy conference, he announced a reward of RS.10,000 (or 1 lakh, I don't remember) for anyone creating a new raga. Balamurali the president of that year's conference, in his acceptance speech, promptly said that he had created several ragas. S.Balachander wrote a long letter to the Academy asking it to convene an experts committee meeting after the season to discuss this 'preposterous claim' (as he saw it). With the season over, the controversy seemed to have died down but a couple of months later Semmangudi reminded the Academy of SB's letter and asked that the experts committee be convened. It was this that was preposterous, for never in its history had the Academy convened the experts committee outside of the December season.

But since SSI had a tremendous influence over the then president K.R.Sundaram Iyer, the experts committee was called to discuss Balamurali's claim of creating new ragas sometime in April 1978. Balamurali, himself an expert committee member, did not attend for he foresaw what the discussions would be like. In his absence, SSI launched a massive offensive against him, calling into question his claim of founding new ragas and saying in effect that no one can 'create' ragas, they can only popularise a raga. All ragas were 'in the air' (akAshathila irukku - whatever that means!). 'yArum enda rAgamum kaNDUpiDikka muDiyAdu'. Conveniently forgotten was the fact that Thyagaraja had created new ragas, so had HMB and many others. To add to the insult SSI also used some of the choicest abusive words against Balamurali. This was surreptitiously recorded by an official of the Academy, besides, notes were also taken by two of Balamurali's chElas who were expert committee menbers.

Balamurali promptly went to court and sued for libel. SSI appointed his lawyers who however were not giving him any hope as the libel case was airtight, what with the cassette carrying Semmangudi's voice. He had to wriggle out of the situation. That was when MS/Sadasivam and Obul Reddy got into the picture. samAdhAna pEchu vArthaigaL (peace talks) were initiated and it was decided on both sides to bury the hatchet. One fine day, a year or so after the libel suit was filed, Semmangudi and Balamurali met in the company of MS/Sadasivam and Obul Reddy, garlanded each other, had lunch together and lived happily ever after.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Mar 2013, 21:38

No need to get excited about the prankster bhairavi1945 who is none other than "kalyani_ragam" who was already banned by me. He has been banned and may again surface in a different Avatar
and there is no need for "some" members to jump in support of such disruptive behaviour.
Moderation is already a tough job for us! We need the cooperation of all good members to assist us to detect and eradicate those who engage in disruptive behaviour and abuse the Freeddom of speech that we cherish at this Forum. Pl don't encourage these pranksters by supporting them as we will be forced to ban you as collaborators. You can pass any comments to us about moderation irregularities or errors but never discuss them at this Forum. We appreciate4 your cooperation.

moderator

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Mar 2013, 22:09

MKR
Thanks for your recollections adding to the excellent narrations of RaviSri. All of us interested in CM history should know how our system evolved, the pluses and minsus for future guidance, not with any intention of maligning any individual or Institution. It is our common heritage.
I have one question, either you or RaviSri may clarify.

I have heard that LGJ was upset when TNK got honoured ahead of him and that is why refused to acccept SK in the later years. Was LGJ considered at all in earlier years and were there any inputs from SSI in that matter. What was SSI's attitude towards LGJ who is unquesstionably the greatest violinist of the century....

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Mar 2013, 22:15

Moderation is already a tough job for us!

Just be glad you only have us lot to control --- and not the members and executive of the Music Academy!

MKR, RaviSri, Thank you for the continuing unfolding revalations

(cmlover, thank you for the continuing moderation)

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 01 Mar 2013, 22:18

A word of caution.

While all this is very interesting, is anyone else uncomfortable about the amount of information thrown out about personalities that is just based on hearsay?

I have heard many of these stories in the past. I do not doubt the veracity of some of the comments, but I am concerned about the unfiltered aspect of the flow of information here. A good example is the Viswa-Ramani story, which was fortunately debunked later. Similarly, the theories of why so-and-so was supposedly refused the SK, or the not-so-salubrious relationship between V Raghavan & Papanasam Sivan. There are several half-truths here which are more pernicious than one would think.

With all due respect to the sources and their "credibility", the line between information and gossip is very thin and I believe we may have crossed that line a while ago. It is important for lay-rasikas reading this to understand that these are speculations and opinions, and however juicy, their resemblance to the truth is probably closer in the mind of the narrator than in reality. The stories have also gone through several embellishments as they spread through word-of-mouth.

So the members elect the executive commitee, President,secretary etc.,democratically and the executive commitee after deliberation selects the SK for the year. Correct me if I am wrong. What is the duration for the President and other office holders? Do the ordinry members have any say on the nominations for SK?

CML, I am a life member of the academy. Unfortunately, I have no idea how much I paid for it since it was inherited from my grandfather's time in the 1930s. But to get season tickets, you have to pay every year. Being a member does not guarantee season tickets. There are a number of members around the world, but only a small fraction actually attend the season concerts. From what I have heard, for the last two decades or so, it has been almost impossible to get a new membership. Till some years ago, a large donation could get you a patron status. Even that has become very difficult; there is a lot of NRI money out there. A lot more than we could possibly imagine.

Also, there is a non-trivial difference between executive and the experts committee. The executive committee comprises people that run the academy events. They are elected on a limited term basis, although many have held their positions for a long time. While the exec members may have privileged access to the expert committee's proceedings and the ear of many members of the experts, they cannot vote for SK. Only the experts committee can. The President and Secretary convene and run the expert committee meetings, not sure what their voting rights are. But they have the power to steer discussions.

Ordinary members do not get any representation to vote for SK nominations. Not even indirectly. In fact the proceedings of the meetings are not public and hence speculations about what they may have discusssed can run wild. As is the case in most of this thread.

I do not remember even receiving a ballot for voting for the executive committee (I have been away from Mylapore for a long time now), although my understanding is that one has to show up at a GBM to vote. The only time in recent memory that I remember receiving updates from them was after the litigation a few years ago, when members were actively solicited to participate during the election process that led to N Murali's team being instated (with Nalli Kuppusami, Namagiripettai Krishnan, Nandini Ramani etc on the other side). Both sides ran a very spirited campaign and the resolution was very important for the future of the academy.

Do you know if members receive the Music Academy Journal? Just curious.

VK. Not by default. But one can subscribe to it. But you can get the souvenir if you show up during the season, or have it mailed to you (they will not pay for international postage).

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 01 Mar 2013, 22:45

Maybe we should close this thread now.

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 01 Mar 2013, 22:56

My post #153 was in response to bhairavi1945 or kalyaniragam, whoever he/she is and whose post threatening to sue us has, I can see, been deleted. I wish it had not been deleted. The beginning of my post #153 was an invitation to this person sue the Academy first. I think other forumites need to read the threat of bhairavi1945. Anyway that is your prerogative.

As for mahavishnu's comments, my posts are all not hearsay. I have attended the Academy season from 1974 to 1991. every year right from day one from the inauguration itself. From day two I would be at the Academy at 7-30 a.m. in time for some tiffin and the bhajan session beginning at 8 a.m. Go home at 12 noon and be back at 2 p.m. From then on to the last concert. All this for those 12 or 13 days until the night concert on Jan 1st ended. If there were a good concert/dance/lecdem at other venues like IFAS or KGS or MFAC I'd go there on some days, otherwise it was out and out at the Academy. Therefore I have been privy to many of the happenings all those years. Aside from this, one got to know of the political happenings throughout the year if one went to Sastri hall, where, almost everyday, there would be some concert or other. Many musicians and other bigwigs used to attend those concerts too and while talking to them one would be privy to many a happening in the music world. Many of these things were first published by the 'Sruti' magazine. Sruti Pattabhiraman kept an open house and a very welcoming cellar for office bearers of the Academy and other institutions. He was therefore privy to many a happening which he promptly published in his magazine. For those who are away from Mylapore for a long time as mahavishnu confesses, it may be difficult o believe these things and attribute them to some fine imagination on my part but that is not the truth.

In fact I wanted to tell bhairavi1945 that he/she should sue 'Sruti' magazine first. In 1988 or '89 Sruti brought out a three part profile on Semmangudfi. In it his political activities in the music world were also discussed. The heading for one of those articles was 'Captain Cowardly'. SSI was also described as the 'Cunningham of Carnatic music'. This three part series was brought out as a single book and this book was released by Semmangudi himself. He knew very well that he was vehemently criticised in that book, nevertheless. In that function, to the amusement of all, he said, 'patrikaila sangItakArALa pathi nalladu dAn ezhudaNam, criticise paNNa paDAdu (One should write only good things about a musician and his music, he should not be criticised).

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Mar 2013, 23:08

Hey ho... I missed all the fun --- by going out to a concert

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 01 Mar 2013, 23:15

RaviSri, MKR and others,
I have heard from musicians who were affected by or were direct witnesses re. many of these ignoble activities.
So I do not doubt your motives or narratives. In fact I thank RaviSri and MKR.

Unfortunately, whereas we all can smell many rotten things in the CM world, when we start discussing individual names, a degree of discomfort develops in most of us. So I do think this thread has run its length by now.

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 01 Mar 2013, 23:22

Again I wish too clarify to people like mahavishnu that many of these incidents that I have described in this thread have been published in the Music Academy's official book on its history, 'Four Score and More'. The SK controversies, the 1977 incident, which apart from my inputs, many others also had narrated to the writers of that book. The Academy has been criticised on many aspects in that book and it is to the credit of the present office bearers of the Academy that they let all these things to be published. Of course, the Academy has done a lot of good things, of which also I propose to write. Its contributions to CM have been immense.

Frankly cmlover, I have not heard that LGJ refused because TNK was honoured first. In the first place TNK is elder to LGJ by four years, second I think TNK started playing on stage earlier than LGJ (I may be corrected if I am wrong in this). LGJ would, I think, have been satisfied if he had been honoured almost after TNK, at least say, in 1982. But the Academy kept dithering, and, waiting upto 1986, LGJ felt that he was being deliberately cheated. Hence his decision not to accept. When he kept away from the Academy for a couple of years, Semmangudi openly advised LGJ at a session in the late 1980s, "Academy oru periya stApanam. ada yArum boycott paNNA paDAdu (Academy is a big institution, no one should boycott it). To which Lalgudi replied, "Agreed Academy is a big institution, but, as much as an artist needs the Academy, it is also dependent on the artists. Therefore, the Academy should respect the artists. Artist illAma stApanam kiDayAdu (There can be no institution without an artist").

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Mar 2013, 23:23

Ramesh
Your concerns are legitimate. Any narration is never better than the narrator. It is inevitable that the narrator's personalities are reflected in the narrations. Even in our scientic research we take for granted the results because the work gets peer reviewed. Many of us even know the weakness of the peer-review system where personal prejudices come to play. Here at the Forum statements and facts are peer reviewed by our large membership community. Any errors or bias will be rightly questioned (pranksters excluded

). Dissents and corrections are always welcome. Our ancient philosophy was
"satyam brUyAt priyam brUyat na brUyAt satyamapriyam
priyam ca nA 'nRtam brUyAt ESha dharma sanatanaH ||"
(Speak the Truth, speak nice things; don't speak the Truth which is not pleasant, also don't speak untruth which is pleasant; and that is the Sanatana (time imemorial) Dharma).
By this practice we missed a complete authentic documented History unlike the West.

As Rasikas we have the right to know what transpires in the CM arena, accepting or not accepting is up to each individual. Questions and comments are always welcome as well as a free discussion. It is up to the narrator to answer as best honestly to the best of his/her knowledge. It is unfair to start by questioning the veracity of the narrator whose identity is known who gains nothing but ignominy by fabricating facts which once they get exposed.

Rsachi
The thread will terminate itself when there is no more materials to discuss

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 01 Mar 2013, 23:30

Rsachi, it is upto the moderators to either continue or close this thread.

We are uncomfortable with comments about individual artists because we tend to worship those whose music we like. I can understand that in the case of one's guru but not in the case of others. Certain rasasikas seem to think that a musician's music itself should not be criticised. I have personally heard a lot of criticism about my guru Mukthamma's and her sister's music. People have told me on my face that they are 'weeping sisters'. I have never taken offence, at best I have pitied those who said this, that's all. My guru herself used to say (and this in English), enga reNDu pEraiyum 'weeping sisters' apDInnu niraya pEr sholluvAnga (Many people call us weeping sisters) and she used to laugh after saying this. I think this should be the attitude to criticism.

kamavardhani · Post by **kamavardhani** » 01 Mar 2013, 23:37

mahavishnu wrote:While all this is very interesting, is anyone else uncomfortable about the amount of information thrown out about personalities that is just based on hearsay?

Yes, I am. Pls see my post #2 in this thread, the very 1st response to the OP. This thread has degenerated, as I foresaw, into "tiNNai pEchu", with mud being slung freely at people, dead and living. Self-appointed "historians" and a gossip-hungry "moderator" to fan the flames under the guise of free speech.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Mar 2013, 00:24

Before we even think of closing this thread let us hear about the positives on MA that you promised to tell us about!
If any, let us conclude with a positive note...

kunthalavarali · Post by **kunthalavarali** » 02 Mar 2013, 00:49

"Till some years ago, a large donation could get you a patron status. Even that has become very difficult; there is a lot of NRI money out there. A lot more than we could possibly imagine".
If this is so why should not the MA go in for a much larger auditorium, like the concert halls in Europe and North America. Some of these(mike less) halls can accommodate close to 3000 people.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 02 Mar 2013, 01:25

Ravisri, I do not doubt the sincerity of your raconteur-ship or your ringside view and first-hand knowledge of these happenings. As a matter of fact, I enjoy your narrations and your penchant for storytelling; your narrative is more even more enjoyable than what one could expect in the "four scores" book . And the same for MKR as well.

That said, while you may have witnessed many profound events of a historical nature, the motives behind people's behaviour are still speculations at best. I hope people like yourself would be quicker to dispel these myths before they get repeated. I say this with all due respect to your privileged access and place in the CM world. My main concerns are with the number of half-truths that have not been floated around (as I listed in my earlier post about Viswa/Ramani, LGJ/TNK etc).

With each of the tasty episodes you and MKR were narrating, these side stories were also developing that it sometime behooves the more sensible amongst us to stop them in their tracks, before they develop a life of their own. So, thanks for stepping up to clarify about LGJ in your most recent post. The earlier aspersion cast him (the great person that he is) is not such good light. And the same is true for Sri Ramani as well.

Many of these things were first published by the 'Sruti' magazine. Sruti Pattabhiraman kept an open house and a very welcoming cellar for office bearers of the Academy and other institutions.

I also have significant concerns about Sruti and Pattabhiraman's position in all of this and his tastes for scandalous journalism, bordering on a colour almost in the middle of the spectrum. In my opinion, Sruti's brand of journalism ranks only marginally higher than a tabloid. The readership of this forum is wider than we appreciate and we do not want to develop a reputation of being the home of unbridled salacious gossip. I could list examples of Sruti's deliberate mischief, but that would be against the spirit what I am trying to convey here.

CML: On a positive note. All said, the MMA (that I am still a proud member of) is a great organization. Yes, the Nobel committee has had issues too, of not honoring people at the right time, missing great work altogether and awarding for political reasons. But, the very fact that the awards it gives are so prestigious speaks volumes to MMA's service and its standing in the CM community. It is important to note that its politics have still remained well within the confines of the music fraternity and have not been handled by outside politics (like the Sangeet-NAtak academy and other national academies of scholarship in the arts/sciences/letters).

I am waiting to hear more interesting things from RaviSri on the positive aspects soon.

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 02 Mar 2013, 04:31

Folks: Mahavishnu,Rsachi,Ravi Sri et al-- I fully endorse Mahavishnu's views that this forum should not deteriorate into a "he-said-she said" story. If my 'anecdotes" are read as "hidden' barbs at a prestigious institution like MA, I FULLY want to apologise to the forum members. I have genuine high regard for the forumites as well as for MA. Afterall MA has whetted my appetite for historical perspectives on our CM Music and its practitioners. I owe a lot to MA for the discussions during the season which I have immensely benefited from .There are so many good things that the Org has done to foster interest and I intend to cover them if the moderator lets this thread continue(I have no problems if the thread is severed!! henceforth I shall I shall "cease-and-desist" from the titlillating stuff(seriously).

Having been closely associated with/or observing from close quarters the functioning of Musical Institutions in India, every institution has its fans and detractors--be it the Shanmukhananda sabha or KGS or NGS. Strong personalities drive these institutions and some recalcitrant members--unable to raise their voices during the tenures of these personalities become dissenters and magazines like Sruthi thrive on these dissenters. Some of the "alleged" victims of the Institutions' " insensitivities", seek the media to vent their grievances hoping that a Subbudu or any other prominent music critic would take up their cases or atleast "leak" them or "air them.( I have been witness to such wailings before my father --- goading him to take up the case using his "access" if not influence. My father has fallen for it and when he took up the case with the authorities concerned he discovered there was another side(the Institution side and a broader context which the complainant had failed to mention or overlooked!!). After a few such 'nose-cuts" my Father became wiser not to tilt at windmills~!!!~.
I still believe that Institutions are resilient and if genuinely interested Rasikas work constructively change amongst these Institutions is possible despite the alleged entrenched elites dominating the Institutions. Since N.Murali's taking over the helm of MA some modicum of decorum ,respect for the artistes has been restored in my opinion.
As for the good things that MA has done,the music compettitions extending into several categories is one example. The competitions have been conducted fairly and despite the participation of several competitors over the years-many of them having connections to the artistes/Judges the process has been scrupulously fair--in fact much fairer than some of the Airtel Supersinger contests that I happen to watch randomly!! The morning discussions during the Season cover a broad range and attract lots of partcipants--not necessarily performers. Ofcourse one can 'quibble' at some of the seemingly sterile discussions that take place despite the Moderators' interventions--but the Institution's motives ought to be lauded.

Lastly the Artistes-Institutions relationships will always go thru various trials and will not stop--Read Rudolf Bing's 5000 Nights at the Opera--the Metropolitan Opera in NY--the tussle between Maria Callas and the Opera management and Board was nice fodder to the tabloids in yesteryears.
One healthy trend I have noticed recently is that the young leading artistes--male and female --do not kowtow to Institutions or Individuals and hold their own--a kind of balance that was overdue because of the dominance of the Institutions and the patronage that they were able to dispense that may have made the artistes beholden to them.

Lastly in my own defense I may add that I try to be fair and discreet in these stories without impugning anybody --I have always tried to put the context and the background of the participants in these "dramas" so that readers can draw their own conclusions. At the same time by blurring the events that actually took place and sweeping things under the rug under the pretext of lofty ideals of Journalism.does not help the cause of CM either.

Artistes and Institutions are neither "Angels without Wings nor Devils without Horns--in short they are extensions of ourselves. I hasten to add I speak for myself!!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Mar 2013, 07:14

MKR/RaviSri
We have no intention of shutting down this thread just because a few are getting tired of information overload. Already this is a highly viewed thread indicating there is a good audience interest. Again most of the facts cited by RaviSri are already documented in other sources nor does he have any mal intention of villification of the persons cited., neither do you though you are more cautious. Many of us living abroad for a long time have great respect for our CM artistes both past and present as well as for the CM institutions which does not mean we want to hear eulogies all the time. As long as whatever is said is said in a decent language without any intention of provoking others it is acceptable and needs no moderaton. It is facts that don't hurt but the language does which requires moderation as do pranksters and disruptive behaviour! Pl share the facts as you know on CM, CM personalities and CM institutions so that we may have a balanced view and appreciate them better.

it is always nice to hear from one who was part of History than reading a book on History!

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 02 Mar 2013, 11:29

Before I go into the positives of the MA, some of which have been explained very well by MKR (the competitions), let me say that I have almost exhausted my information on SSI's politics vis-a-vis MA. I wish to state again that I have great respect for his music which I even now enjoy on CDs. And he has made great contributions to the Academy by way of his recollections of the past, about ragas etc. And, as I pointed out in one of my earlier posts, I will always be grateful to him for introducing me, albeit indirectly to the music of the Dhanammal family. Having said this, I must also say that the 1970s and 80s were not the only periods in which there were controversies.

Right from the beginning there were quarrels.misunderstandings and even fights. In 1928, Naina Pillai was asked to perform. He usually had a full bench of accompanists, including the violin, mridangam, ghatam, ghanjira, moharsing, and the konnakkol too. But the Academy would allow him only the violin and the mridangam. Someone prevailed upon Naina to sing despite these 'disadvantages' to him. The duration of the concerts was also only 2 hours whereas Naina was used to performing for 4 or 5 hours. Naina overshot his time. Pt.Vishnu Digambar Paluskar who was to perform next simply climbed on stage, physically unseated Naina, sat and started singing. A fuming Naina Pillai had to leave in a huff.

Then there was this resolution of the Academy which said that musicians ought to start their programmes on time, they ought not to sing swarams for every 'blessed' song, that they ought to know the meaning of the sAhitya and that harikatha performers ought to come to the story at once instead of meandering about. The Bhagavatar from Harikesanallur flouted all these conditions on that very day at his harikatha performance, leading KVK, then president to remark that the Academy could not get its own vidwans to abide by its resolutions.

In the 1940s, Chowdiah had developed his 7 stringed violin. Ariyakkudi had asked him at a recital of his as to how many more strings had he in his violin case. GNB called him 'Soundiah' and the Dhanammal family called him 'Sevidiah'. It was only Chembai who was not bothered, for he could drown any amount of sound with his powerful voice. Chembai had performed with the Nagaswaram as accompaniment once. He had also sung to the accompaniment of 18 or 20 cheNDais in an impromptu singing at a village festival in Cherpulasseri near Palakkad.

But more nasty things were to follow. In the 1930s and '40s there was this person called C.S.Iyer, a brother of Physics Nobel laureate C.V.Raman and father of another Noble laureate S.Chandrasekhar and of vaiNikA Smt.Vidya Shankar. Iyer was a very outspoken man. He came out hammer and tongs against Chowdiah's innovation. One day in 1942 he remarked that the 7 stringed violin's sound was like the moaning of a TB afflicted woman. He went on to conclude that the 7 stringed violin should be consigned to the very depths of the Bay of Bengal. An enraged Chowdiah got up and ran towards the dais brandishing his violin bow. He was restrained from bodily harming C.S.Iyer. The next day ladies turned up in large numbers at the Lady Sivaswamy girls high school where the Academy conference was taking place to listen to C.S.Iyer's caustic and colourful remarks. But on that day, fearing that he might be bodily harmed by Chowdiah's fans, Iyer kept away. In 1947 Chowdiah came with a 12 stringed violin to demonstrate it but he was prevailed upon by Semmangudi who was that year's conference president not to go ahead with the demonstration.

The very same C.S.Iyer, who was a violinist besides being a high officer in the Accountant General's office demonstrated 'srutis' on the violin. He also released a book containing a number of fractions which were the value of the srutis. These fractions read something like 253/97, 129/47, 19/7 etc. None could make head or tail of this or of his demonstration. Ranga Ramanuja Iyerngar remarked that "There is this megalomaniac from the Govt's finance department who, obsessed with his own knowledge of music, gave frequent demonstrations on the violin and distributed leaflets studded with fractions and similar abstractions."

In 1931 itself there was this sparring between C.S.Iyer and Chowdiah. Spurred by Iyer, the Academy dropped Chowdiah from its list of performers in 1931. An angry Chowdiah wanted to teach the Academy a lesson and consulted with his friends, mainly the Kannada speaking people residing in Madras. The result was the founding of 'The Indian Fine Arts Society'. Though founded by the Kannadigas, the main fund contributors to the Society were the rich Telugu speaking Kommati Chettiars.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 02 Mar 2013, 13:19

The epic stories exist only because of human mistakes and imperfections (and it seems from those tales that even gods may have them). If all had been perfect, the stories would not have filled the first page. Perhaps even there some of the participants there get a worse (or better!) press than they deserve. Our elder forumites are telling of people who, in these stories, were the giants of time in that culture. There may be a certain natural reticence when it comes to those still living; that I can understand. Otherwise, let the bones of history be fleshed out. It is understood that this is a forum, a gathering of friends, not a court of law. The stories are told in good faith, and should be heard in good faith.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Mar 2013, 23:19

How come Naina Pillai was never considered for SK though the stalwarts one time or other learned from him.
Was this due to the prejudice that prevailed which ended as you say only in 1976?

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 03 Mar 2013, 02:12

Ravi Sri's accounts of the MA--especially the C.S.IYER tidbits have stirred my nostalgia pot. He was a fixture in the Morning sessions-- although I did not understand a word of his miniaturing of Sruthis I used to be amused by his tactics--the only reason people tolerated him was that he was a Senior Finance officer(Accountant General in the British Raj considered a high appointment )-the CVRaman connection was in the background)--Another factor that was in his favor was he was a disciple of Sangeetha Kalanidhi Sabhesa Iyer(who was the First principal of the Annamalai University College of Music and also the guru of Musiri).Sabhesa Iyer exerted some clout in the late thirties(Musiri himself may have been the benficiary at a young age-39 or 40 of being one of the youngest KALANIDHIS thanks to Sabhesa Iyer!). His daughter the Late Vidya Shankar used to accompany him in the demos--he will make a point tut-tutting any dissenting voice and then say "My daughter will demonstrate" much to the chagrin of the attendees but also to the amusement of young ignoramuses like myself. In fact coming to think of it the only reason I attended those sessions with my cousin was the Theatre and Drama of C.S.Iyer-- on the stage he would look like a grumpy bear and intimidating!!

As regards CM Lover's comment about Naina Pilai not getting the SK recognition, here is my amateur kitchen-table research:

If you look at the SK's since the inception in the Thirties it is dominated by the Tanjore Sishya Paramparas of Thygaraja--the krishna Bhagavathar and Sundara Bhagavathars brothers-Harikatha exponents who came during the tail end of Thygarajs's life ,the Umayalpuram Swaminatha Iyer,pazhamarneri Swaminatha Iyer--the first breakthro of this tradition was Dwaram's selection in 1941 or 1942)--which was the FIRST Solo artiste(Violin) recognition in MA's annals. The MA's expert committees were dominated by the Tanjore School musicians
Naina Pillai--I feel inherited the legacy of Walajapet Venkatramana Bhagavathar-- one of the Saint's prime disciples in the Saint's early years--that's why you would find many of the rare raga krithis with Vivadi Swaras were popularised by Naina Pillai/Chitoor/ DKP. If you analyse the ARI/Musiri/SSI/MV krithi renderings you would rarely find any of the krithis like Nannu Kanna Talli(Sindhu kannada--although I found one recording of SSI singing this song--BMK popularised these songs),Sadamathim(Gambhiravani),Vinatha(Vivardhini).mridubhashana(Maru Danyasi).

What I am surmising is that the latterday sishyas/disciples of Sishyas of the Saint did a more diligent job of bringing the compositions to light--perhaps other forumites familiar with the Walajapet School or the predecessors of the Pinakamani/BMK schools-- who have unearthed several compositions of the Saint--that did not come into light during the Twenties, Thirties and Forties -- I feel the preponderance of the Tanjore schools in the MA's committees may have put Naina Pillai (plus the Brahmin elite's domination) at a disadvantage.

While one cannot rewrite history or wrongs committed in the past I think with the proliferation of Sabhas all over the World there is a much more egalitarian,democratic approach and the Institutions themselves have shown sufficient resilience in their adaptations to the changing scenes.

Ofcourse not all the furor that we as forumites raise against what we perceive to be unfairness in the selection process of any awards--be it SK or the Givt's awards-- may not amount to much in terms of influencing the powers that be. Let's keep on "chugging"!!!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Mar 2013, 02:26

None could make head or tail of this or of his (C.S. Iyer )demonstration. Ranga Ramanuja Iyerngar remarked that "There is this megalomaniac from the Govt's finance department who, obsessed with his own knowledge of music, gave frequent demonstrations on the violin and distributed leaflets studded with fractions and similar abstractions."

C.S. Iyer comes off badly ( relatively speaking ) in RaviSri's story telling due to the color he chose to add. That is understandable but I am puzzled by Ranga Ramnuja Iyengar's words. I think this type of writing is partially the reason for the credibility problem suffered by Indian authors that we had discussed earlier.Criticisms are indeed an essential part of any scholarly activity but RRI just does not add any value in his criticism but just lashes out with put downs and value judgments like 'megalomaniac' and 'obsessed with his own knowledge of music'.

Just for fun, the same thing can be written by someone else biased in favor of C.S. Iyer without really changing anything that was observed.

None could make head or tail of this or of his (C.S. Iyer )demonstration but that is not surprising given the relative unfamiliarity of the subject matter by the audience. Sambamurthy remarked that "There is this scholar from the Govt's finance department who, obsessed with his pursuit of discovering the fundamentals of our music, gave frequent demonstrations on the violin and distributed leaflets studded with fractions and similar abstractions."

Now notice how the words 'obsessed' and 'studded with fractions and similar abstractions' take on a positive and scholarly meaning in the second portrayal.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Mar 2013, 06:09

Words! Words1 Words!
In those days folks never mince matters but speak out their hearts in the crudest language.
Times have changed now! American influence

Even when they reject you Americans use a nice polite language to make you feel good!
Our "vernaculars" add insult to injury especially if the speaker is a VIP!

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 03 Mar 2013, 07:21

MKR, interesting as always. I appreciate the spirit of your earlier post as well. Thank you for that.

Ramasubramanian M.K wrote: If you analyse the ARI/Musiri/SSI/MV krithi renderings you would rarely find any of the krithis like Nannu Kanna Talli(Sindhu kannada--although I found one recording of SSI singing this song--BMK popularised these songs),Sadamathim(Gambhiravani),Vinatha(Vivardhini).mridubhashana(Maru Danyasi).

Here is Semmangudi singing Nannu kanna talli with BMK on viola!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkRQo9mQz8g

From what I have heard, this concert was itself a goodwill gesture between the two.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Mar 2013, 08:50

CML, if post #176 was in response to my prior point, that misses my point. I am not talking about speaking one's heart or using the crudest language. That is a different matter. I am talking about trash talking a scholarly work without really addressing the scholarly work. That just bugs me.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 03 Mar 2013, 09:23

VKM,
I think you're making an extremely important point here.
For example, if I want to denounce MD, I make a statement like, 'don't you see that MD has not composed any kriti in Kharaharapriya, such a magnificent raga used by Thyagaraja for so many immortal kritis'...and someone will say, 'yes, so and so has clearly stated that MD is an inferior composer, because he did not compose in KHP which was given its due importance by Thyagaraja'... Etc.

And the level of debate descends to a dramatically low level when I start saying 'so-and-so, a third rate lawyer' or 'so-and-so critic, who played the harmonium' and then make them look bad in the context.

I feel music is a subjective experience largely. So the only valid statements are, in my opinion, I liked so-and-so music.. Or I didn't like so-and-so music. We should not couch opinions and assumptions as data or proof of someone's arguments.

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 03 Mar 2013, 12:12

'don't you see that MD has not composed any kriti in Kharaharapriya, such a magnificent raga used by Thyagaraja for so many immortal kritis'...and someone will say, 'yes, so and so has clearly stated that MD is an inferior composer, because he did not compose in KHP which was given its due importance by Thyagaraja'...

Rsachi, this is exactly what Subbudu wrote in the 1980s.

Subbudu also wrote that Thyagaraja had composed his gauLa pancharatnam only to spite Dikshitar. There is this line which says, 'I have committed the sin of teaching shUdrAs and women....' Subbudu's contention was that Thyagaraja was mocking at Dikshitar since it was Dikshitar who taught women and non-brahmins and not T. And since Dikshitar did not compose in Karaharapriya, he was an inferior composer, forgetting the fact that before the Trinity Karaharapriya was only a scale and it was T who had breathed life into that raga, given it flesh and blood.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 03 Mar 2013, 13:10

You know, after reading your article elsewhere about Dikshitar, RaviSri, every thought and musical bit bringing me in contact with him is a blessed moment for me.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 03 Mar 2013, 13:40

Perhaps this thread should be renamed to something like "Life and times of the Music Academy," or, "Music Academy: The SK Years."

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Mar 2013, 19:52

VK
Mine was not a direct response to what you wrote but a free speculation on the behaviour of our
compatriots.

Let us stick to MA and the SK years in this thread without digressing.
If we have discussed the past, then let us discuss the present and what we look forward in the Future.
I agree that MA should evolve into the Premier Institution for CM and SK should become an insignia of honour.
With the NRI money pouring in they should liberalize membership and make the SK selection democratic.
It should be an honour to present a paper or lecdem in the Sadas as in prestigious scientific conferences.
MA should sponsor Historical research of its archives and more on-going funded research in CM. For example
I would have loved to see Uday demonstrate his new invention, Chitra veNu at MA first and reviewed by the
best brains in CM. There could be many more....

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 03 Mar 2013, 22:18

post deleted by poster . Thanks

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 03 Mar 2013, 22:25

I think it is just irreverently funny. No need to treat it as a value judgment.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 03 Mar 2013, 22:39

I think it is just irreverently funny

May be .In the first instance .Not when quoted after all that has been said till now.
There is an obligation for all of us to handle such issues with the seriousness this art form deserves.

No need to treat it as a value judgment.

That may be your position . My position is mine . Since I seem to know a bit more about Chowdiah and his work .Andwhich is just not limited to increasing the sound volume . Sigh !

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 03 Mar 2013, 23:27

I am with Varsha on this.

There comes a stage when the medium, messenger and message become inseparable. The humour dissipates and the irreverence remains. But as I said in an earlier post, we may have crossed that point along the mighty Coovum a long time ago.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 03 Mar 2013, 23:44

Varsha has a point...

Chowdiah's experiments with strings were not just about volume, there's a tonal element there too. And GNB seems to have had no "problem" with the seven stringed violin. He frequently had Chowdiah for accompaniment and moreover often sought out V Sethuramiah, an equally stringed disciple and a fine violinist. Madurai Mani Iyer too often had Chowdiah for accompaniment. While Chowdiah was a dignified presence on the concert stage who added great color, personality and originality to the Katcheri, Chowdiah bashing, unfortunately, was and continues to be a popular pastime for many Madras folks. I am reminded of the temple elephant walking along the road in a stately, grand and dignified manner and the street dogs barking and chasing after it.

As for CS Aiyer, it appears Ravisri's is biased in favor of the Rangaramanujam types

. C S Aiyer's squiggles are not at all some meaningless "vulgar" fractions. Incidentally, none of his fractions had a seven in the denominator. Those fractions are the stuff out of which musical scales are created and musical instruments designed. Since Pythagoras in the west and since Bharata in Bhaarata, people have been worried about such ratios.

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 03 Mar 2013, 23:44

I do not understand what the issue is ? The exception should be filed with source of the comment, me thinks.

GNB and Chowdiah were great friends. It is amply evidenced by Chowdiah's speech after Radha Jayalakshmi's Parvathi concert, where Chowdiah says, " R&J are disciples of his friend and imbibed his style ..."

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Mar 2013, 02:21

Not sure how relevant this is to this thread, but I was reading today ESPN's "Outside the lines' feature on Michael Jordon on the event of his 50th birthday titled 'Michael Jordon has not left the building' ( though far removed from the context of this thread, here is a link to that article for those interested: http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/page/Mi ... t-building )

The following philosophical musings by the author caught my attention and I could not help think about this thread and the discomfort people feel about the nature of the discussion here about the people they hold near and dear. I think a lot of that is due to the fact that they are not here to defend themselves and if these go unchallenged, what remains will be believed as true by future generations. I see what mahavishnu and varsha say in that light. Quite fair indeed.

Here is that passage. The author writes this in a general form first and so it is applicable to all fields including CM.

..Aging means losing things, and not just eyesight and flexibility. It means watching the accomplishments of your youth be diminished, maybe in your own eyes through perspective, maybe in the eyes of others through cultural amnesia. Most people live anonymous lives, and when they grow old and die, any record of their existence is blown away. They're forgotten, some more slowly than others, but eventually it happens to virtually everyone. Yet for the few people in each generation who reach the very pinnacle of fame and achievement, a mirage flickers: immortality. They come to believe in it. Even after Jordan is gone, he knows people will remember him. Here lies the greatest basketball player of all time. That's his epitaph. When he walked off the court for the last time, he must have believed that nothing could ever diminish what he'd done. That knowledge would be his shield against aging

I think the above applies to the Music Academy and the CM personalities who are being discussed here. They themselves may or may not have believed in the immortality of their work but we rasikas definitely do. They may not have been perfect ( why is that even a criterion? ), either early in their lives or later in their lives, there are always stories and rumors about celebrities, some true some just hearsay, some delightful some hurtful, but I do not think any of that puts a dent into their life long work...As people and artists we have had the privilege of listening... That immortality hopefully will be carried on into the future and we should believe that nothing could ever diminish what they had done. Their life long work that stands by itself is the real shield.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 04 Mar 2013, 06:32

post deleted .
A bit like they say in kannada
Borgallu mele mazhe surida hagey .It was a sheer wasted effort .Not worth my time .

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 04 Mar 2013, 10:29

In the first place TNK is elder to LGJ by four years,

By a tad less than two, actually. TNK was born on Oct 6, 1928 and LGJ on Sep 17, 1930.

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 04 Mar 2013, 11:14

Anyone visiting Academy today will get goosebumps about the inability to get a seat for lec dem.

That is because todays' lecdems are held in the Kasturi Srinivasan hall which can seat not more than 200 people. In the 60s, 70s and 80s they were held at the big TTK auditorium which can seat 1500.

Someone here prides himself of telling DKJ what to sing on his day of reckoning .He is even happy that another person "knows" that And SSI introducing him to a particular school!!!! There is a limit to feeling great about oneself for all the useless things.

Absolutely insulting. There is a limit to such personal insults. I didn't feel great, I only feel grateful. I have not, repeat, not personally insulted anyone, much less a Chowdiah or a C.S.Iyer, both of whom I have not even seen, just reported what I have heard and read.

There are many sick minds working here. Certainly those years of training under M have failed to instil a sense of taste .

Let there be no knee-jerk reaction since no malice is intended towards anyone .

If the above is not malice then what is? Sick mind indeed! Your posts are personal insinuations against me, nothing less. You have determined to personally insult me and you have succeeded brilliantly "....have failed to instill a sense of taste'. That is your sense of taste.

Ones love for a particular school /style /region need not be at the cost of a poor opinion of another.

I have had no such prejudices. I have only remembered certain incidents.

After all this unwarranted personal attacks It will be difficult for me to continue. I thank the admin for giving me this opportunity and to people like varsha for tolerating me this long.

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 04 Mar 2013, 11:52

Varsha,

Your posts are offensive, Please stop your non-sense.
<EDITED by mod. Let us not bring in other artists into the mix here>

Someone here prides himself of telling DKJ what to sing on his day of reckoning .He is even happy that another person "knows" that And SSI introducing him to a particular school!!!! There is a limit to feeling great about oneself for all the useless things.

What a spell binding rendition of Soundararajam by DKJ - the best and UKS accompaniment is out of the world. I am glad DKJ sang that in the concert.
It is not as if he asked DKJ to sing his composition

A friend of mine, had requested DKJ to sing Chera Ravedhemira (Reetigowla) which DKJ did sing in the SK concert.
I would have been mightly thrilled if DKJ had sung Sree Valli Devasenapathe which I had requested

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 04 Mar 2013, 12:16

uday_shankar wrote: While Chowdiah was a dignified presence on the concert stage who added great color, personality and originality to the Katcheri, Chowdiah bashing, unfortunately, was and continues to be a popular pastime for many Madras folks. I am reminded of the temple elephant walking along the road in a stately, grand and dignified manner and the street dogs barking and chasing after it.

I am not up on the history of this but I do not see any "bashing" in this thread. Just good-natured ribbing or rather reports of them from peers/friends. May be I am insensitive because I don't have a personal stake but I don't think the greatness of Chowdiah is diminished even microscopically by these reports. If anything it indicates to me the level of cameraderie among the artistes of the era.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 04 Mar 2013, 13:22

Ones love for a particular school /style /region need not be at the cost of a poor opinion of another.

I think there's a limit to this. Over a course of time, one may be able to actually recognize what it is about a particular school / style / region that makes one love it so. And then, the lack of "it" in other schools / styles / "regions" does begin to hit. A 'poor opinion' is too strong a thing, nonetheless ...

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 04 Mar 2013, 16:46

Varsha,
Your posts are offensive, Please stop your non-sense.

Done . Let me know if any other post - of mine - is offensive .I will remove them too .
I try to bring levity to a Raschi thread earlier , and he shuts me up

- asking me to be serious.
I try to bring seriousness into some light hearted banter here and folks ask me to take it light .
I will take my time to get the drift here .And will keep learning.Let the show go on.

kunthalavarali · Post by **kunthalavarali** » 04 Mar 2013, 17:44

" If anything it indicates to me the level of cameraderie among the artistes of the era"

One oft quoted incident is when MTC lifted ARI on his shoulders and went round the hall with joy after a brilliant concert by the later.

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 04 Mar 2013, 18:05

Hey folks: Varsha,RaviSri et al---Lighten up!!The common denominator in all these exchanges is that WE ALL LOVE MUSIC and we find the Forum a respectable vehicle to "air" our views.Sometimes the way we write may reveal an incipient bias" however much we claim to couch it with objectivity--this is inevitable especially for folks like me who have,since childhood not only been an avid listener but also intimately associated with the Musicians and their families and these interactions may have led to some biases or prejudices---no malice or titillation is intended !! True, persons who have a detached view of things in life and even-handed in their approach--especially if they have not been privy to the persons/events discussed may find the anecdotes too intrusive and offensive.
Speaking for myself every anecdote that I narrate--that I was directly privy to or described to me by persons I trust-- has taught me upon reflection some facets that I may have missed and when I consider the context/mileu of those incidents,I have tried to correct the hasty first-impressions that I may have gathered.(More on this in my SSI narrative to be restarted--more so after the allusions to SSI in this topic and other topics!!)

Now for some levity---
One of the posts referred to above mentioned Subbudu's opinion about Saint Thyagaraja and Muthuswamy Dikshitar regarding the PanchaRatna kriti Dudugu (Gowla). This concrns SSI and HMB.

When HMB brought and introduced SSI to the Maharani and Maharaja and the "succession" issue had been resolved--as was the custom SSI got his maiden debut before the Royalty .

SSI sang the Gowla Pancharathna and noticed that there were tears flowing down HMB's cheeks--at the end of the concert--SSI the worldly-wise and street-smart man that he was (he was in his Mid thirties) asked HMB what prompted those tears saying that he(SSI) is convinced it was not his singing that moved HMB!! HMB it seems replied,In this song the saint laments amount his faults/deficiencies--he had none of those faults that he was atoning for whereas I have all those faults/deficiencies that I should be the one who cries and laments!!(This was told by SSI to my uncle).

Regarding T.Chowdiah---according to my father and artistes like LGJ he was the MOST GENEROUS LARGE_HEARTED MAN in the Music World. One of the reasons I am told he switched to the multi-stringed Violin was that he had noticed a gradual deterioration of the "Pitch" among leading vocalists of his times(probably Chembai was an exception) and without the mike he felt the Violin sounds were not audible--especially in the kind of large pandals/temples that used to be venues for concerts. If you listen carefully the flights of raga delineations that he indulged in @ high speeds flawlessly one learns to respect how much practice and efforts he had put into the instrument . Both GNB and Ariyakudi with distinct styles of their own were highly complimentary of TC's accompaniment(GNB-Chowiah-Mani used to be reigning trio for a long time till TNK/LGJ cam on the scene).

LGJ once mentioned an incident involving him when he performed in Bangalore under the aegis of an org that TC was intimately connected to and in the middle or at the end of the concert he openly paid rich compliments to LGJ saying in coarse Tamil how imaginative LGJ's playing was and egged the audience for a response "Don't you all agree".

TC according to my father was the most cooperative when it came to remunerations and if the budget did not permit a larger sum and if the artist(vocalist) was an youngster that needed encouragement and TC's accompaniment would be a concert-attendance booster,TC would readily agree and encourage the young artist. Once when he had come to Bombay the next day after the concert -- when he was due to return to bangalore--he had an impulse to visit Shirdi ( Sai Baba's shrine) and had my father arrange a Private Taxi all the way from Bombay to Shirdi "blowing" all the money that he got for the concert!!
The TC hall shaped as a violin in Bangalore is a fitting monument to a great artist!!!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Mar 2013, 20:17

Rain or shine, the show goes on (and this thread too!) and thank goodness for that

Life is too short, at least from our point of view, to take offense on any non-existent bias.

Writing a biography is not an easy task. It's a genre of writing where one has to strive for keeping one's own personal feelings about the subject strictly away from the work and yet--get into the very being of the subject. Two extreme states of mind exist there!

This has been one of the most valuable threads in my view in which we do get a view from a vantage point on the CM scene of the past decades.
If something sounds like juicy gossip, it's because we stop our journey to dwell on a particular statement (which means of course that it can well attain a gossip status).
We can understand it if only we look at life itself. We can either learn from happenings or make sensation out of it.

Other arts have the pointers too. Ban a D.H.Lawrence or James Joyce for the wrong reasons, and in spite of it, they will prevail.

One other thing which I appreciate in all these revelations is that the 'holier than holy' attitude about CM is demystified here. Note that I do not mean 'busted', because if we respect something and love it dearly, we will only benefit by these accounts and not be turned away from what we love.

I'm also glad to see that not just elders, but also some younger members see eye to eye on this.

RaviSri, MKR, Sachi and all, I do feel that CM is being written about in these threads to educate us. Pious, romantic and personal attitudes have to be left in the cloak room before we enter its portals...

As for humor, we are a forum where we indulge in the joy of humor. The long standing Hilarity thread and endless humorous verses and jokes here at Rasikas attest to that.