T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recording

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Nick H
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T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recording

Post by Nick H »

Today's New Indian Express: Listen, please don’t evesdrop
Artistes continue to be deeply hurt by some rasikas who secretly record performances with diminutive gadgets including cell phones and exch­ange these illegal recordings with the ‘like-minded’. Such offenders have contributed ‘richly’ to the downfall of the music market to the lowest-ever point that it has reached today!
It's a complex subject, and I'm sure there will be several points of view here. I suspect that the conclusion reached in the opening paragraph is actually absurd if not ridiculous: many claim that recording/downloading music has no negative effect on CD sales, and that it, in fact, boosts it.

Bring on the points of view...

Sathej
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by Sathej »

Would have been more appropriate if a methodical argument backed by suitable research (numbers/other data) had been used (and presented) to arrive at conclusions. Else, assertions like the one made above reduce to being just opinions.

Sathej
Last edited by Sathej on 11 Jul 2010, 12:27, edited 2 times in total.

vainika
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by vainika »

Evesdropping is never good. Eavesdropping, on the other hand, can have adaptive value, as many studies show.
Last edited by vainika on 11 Jul 2010, 12:35, edited 1 time in total.

Vijayakumar
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by Vijayakumar »

In fact when I recently attended a concert of Vijay Shiva, I felt offended when he started blasting a rasika for his personal recording of few minutes as if he made a serious blender. What do these musicians think of themselves? They seem to be having only commercial tendencies in mind. In fact why should he be bothered about something else when he is singing? Should you not be worried about what you do and your bhavas? Is money the only motive behind music? In today's technology world, does it really make sense to worry about these things? In fact if it is not for the great trinities of the yester years where will these performers stand today? Have they paid any royalty to these great composer's whose songs are they singing and make money today? In fact, after Vijay Siva's behaviour in public, i have decided to boycot his programs anywhere having a negative effect in deed.

We always have a tendency to overprotect. Cameras and videos are heavily charged in public places in India whereas you dont find the same in foreign places. You can enjoy snapping airports and planes in turmac and share happily your moment of joy. Great Madam Tussads allows liberal snapping whereas our lousy ones here show "fotography restricted".

srkris
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by srkris »

All illegal acts may not be ipso-facto unethical, think of Robin Hood.

The artists who say the concert recording habit damages them financially seem to be completely off the point. Sharing commercially published music with the wider world is more financially damaging to the artist and the publisher than recording & sharing amateur in-concert music clips.

Nick H
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by Nick H »

well, while Vijay Siva is one of my favourite artists, my interest in TMK was decimated by his actions on this front a few months ago.

My mind is not at all set on these issues. I am not entirely comfortable with recording in a concert, although there are snippets on my cell phone, so I can't claim to never do it. One, simply selfish, reason for my abstention, is that I cannot stand bad recordings and any equipment that would satisfy me would be very visible, very expensive, or both!

The world's media industry presses for ever more restrictive copyright laws, to be imposed in ever more vindictive ways, and we read of single mothers being sued for tens of thousands of dollars. Whilst some of the performers support this, others do not. A notable example from the world of rock music is an American band called The Grateful Dead. Right from the start they permitted and encouraged "bootlegging" (in this context, the personal recording and sharing of live music). They even permitted high quality recordings from the mixing desk to be made available. They maintained copyright control over commercially issued recordings but encouraged the rest of their music to be shared for free. There is an internet archive containing hundreds of their live concerts, all available for free, and all condoned by them, the owners of the copyright in that music. Their following, internationally, over decades of their career has been huge, and they have certainly not lost by their policy. Any carnatic music who becomes 1/10 (even with an adjustment for the difference between Western-rock-star and Indian-classical-musician economy!) as rich from their music would be well satisfied.

I think we can, and will, debate the rights and wrongs of this for a long time. As I say, my mind is far from made up --- but I do feel that the musicians should have some sensitivity towards their customers, without whom their creativity would have to be performed to their furniture at home.
The artists who say the concert recording habit damages them financially seem to be completely off the point.
Absolutely. A concert recording just cannot be equated to a lost CD sale, and it most certainly cannot be equated to a lost future ticket sale. There are artists who maintain that making their music available on the internet, for instance, leads to enhanced record sales. There are even authors who say that even making complete books available, for free, online, enhances their bookshop sales.

I wonder if these guys have really thought this through? I think they may have jumped on a bandwagon of the Western music industry giants without having seen the real picture. As Sathej says, the article is hardly an example of clear thinking and reasoning. Maybe they think they have jumped on a bandwagon, but have really put themselves on a lumbering bullock cart!

mankuthimma
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by mankuthimma »

Paulo Coelho turns tables on Harper Collins on matters of copyright

The best-selling author Paulo Coelho has managed to turn tables on his publishing house Harper Collins. Indeed, the New York Times released an article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/11/busin ... ref=slogin)
saying how Harper Collins is enabling the online reading of Coelho's book The Witch of Portobello in its website. The publishing house also announced it would be putting a Coelho book per month on it's website.
It seems that Harper Collins had no choice, since Coelho confessed in his speech during the DLD conference earlier this year, that many books (including Harper English versions) where in Pirate Coelho – a blog he created for free download : http://piratecoelho.wordpress.com/
Thumbs up for Pirate Coelho!

http://www.shelfari.com/groups/11494/di ... -of-copyri

bilahari
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by bilahari »

Silly article. Leaving alone that baseless conclusion reached in the first paragraph, I don't think their 'rebuttals' for the questions of why musicians do not pay royalties to the composers' descendants and the point that musicians must also have profited from recordings of yesteryear vidwans are of any substance whatsoever.

I agree entirely that it is never in the musician's best interest to alienate his/her patrons in the manner TMK and VS are doing. Unfortunately for them, no amount of their moral hilltop preaching will in any way reduce illegal sharing of their music.

Counterexample to everything they're saying: Sanjay.

rajeshnat
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by rajeshnat »

In all fairness what TMK and vijaysiva have written is very well resonating and appearing right to me. One must see from their viewpoints .

# Attn Nick: One cannot compare like the grateful dead band vs carnatic music .There the no of followers of the band is far far higher so what they get out of commercial recording is still a manageable higher pie than what they lose out of bootlegging which is itself a marketing. Here in cm,the whole small circle of listeners just grab it in one go once it reaches the internet cloud.

# Also our carnatic music only has auditory appeal and incidentally even a fairly poor recording from the audience is still musically good when compared to the best of studio recording . A good analogy is 5.2 Mega pixel camera (free clandestine recording) vs 9.2 mega pixel camera (commercial recording), don't we all feel happy with a manageable 5.2 mega pixel camera.Are we not comfortable with free instead of paying little more in general.

# Attn Bilahari: You gave a comparison of tmk-vijaysiva vs sanjay. Here is my observation on that . I personally think sanjay has quite an access to commercial recording companies , you can see charsur and vsriram is almost backing sanjay , you can see they give his studio and ask him to perform audio webcasts and all this has contributed to his marketing .Hence he is taking that approach instead of fighting like TMK or vijay. Each of the musicians dont have the same level playing field . That also means that I agree with you that sanjay is a very intelligent musician where instead of fighting with the global piracy he tries his best to market so that more rasikas flock to his concerts .Kudos to his approach too!!

# Carnatic musicians in general are still looking at releasing cds and dvd's in an old fashioned way .There is a convenience issue where stacking cds and dvds are a pain for each of us .They should look at uploading their music in regular intervals like amazon and apple so that each track is downloadable .For sure digital and ubiquitous content availability and paying for each track will score over the dying cd and dvds in racks of landmark and sankarA hall.

# Also compare the content of the carnatic musicians vs films and novel writers .It is just the same dinamani vamsa by semmangudi of 1960's , santhAnam of 1980's , 2000 Tmk and 2020 possibly Rithvik Raja , all of them are going to sing the same hurry kAmbOdhi as such there is not much to differentiate and enticing each of us to pay.The film artists and novel writers can have more variety and originality than a carnatic musician (dont mistake the manOdharmam of each musician is only a strong selling point to hear him/her again , but it is not as strong for one to commit and give few notes from your wallet )

# On a sidenote we all are in a generation where we longed for hearing music from 1960's to 1980's . I remember I took a 100 Rs note to buy 3 audio casettes of santhAnam where I did not have another 5 Rs to pay for the casette in mid 80's. But now I download and hear music from various sources . We all are sold with the music and hence the urge to hear is more . Compare this with post sangeethapriya rasikas and musicians they have access to free music but will they have an inclination to pay what I paid for maharAjapuram santhanam in 1980's . I just doubt it.

# Attn Sathej: You were mentioning about methodical argument . I recently went to landmark nungambakkam and I met one of the staff there . They have presently reduced the no of racks for commercial carnatic cds when compared to what they had 6 months back.Their data speaks that they are not selling well. So definitely there is adequate data to prove that musicians are hit by privacy.

Conclusively , I empathize with carnatic musicians on this . Both TMK and vijay have a point. And please note they are only talking about recordings and uploads of concerts where the artists are not consented .As such they have given few free ones for us to enjoy and them to be marketed . As such it is only musicians prerogative and not rasikas judgment to share music which itself is a simple and straightforward point .
Last edited by rajeshnat on 12 Jul 2010, 18:00, edited 2 times in total.

Sathej
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by Sathej »

rajeshnat wrote:
# Attn Sathej: You were mentioning about methodical argument . I recently went to landmark nungambakkam and I met one of the staff there . They have presently reduced the no of racks for commercial carnatic cds when compared to what they had 6 months back.Their data speaks that they are not selling well. So definitely there is adequate data to prove that musicians are hit by privacy.
Firstly, I mentioned the lack of methodic rigour in the article as a stand-alone piece, in the sense that it did not present any of the data (if there is any) to substantiate the claims. So, whether data exists or not is a separate issue. The article as such lacks any such information.

Secondly, commercial CDs not selling well - yes, may be partly due to the fact that recordings are shared. But there may be a host of other issues. For instance, personally I hardly buy CDs as they appear to me to be generously edited. So on that count I would not buy CDs even if recordings were not available, I would rather go to a live concert). So availability of recordings may not be a sufficient reason for lack of CD sales.

So, it is not a straightforward issue to arrive at rapid conclusions even in the face of available data. There has to be more statistical analysis and homework done to come up with numbers and arguments, I would think, to actually arrive at any such conclusions.

Sathej

ramanathan
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by ramanathan »

One should either be a musician or should have invested time & money in a non-remunerative business like classical music, to understand and empathize with what Vijay & TM are trying to convey... 99% of the esteemed members of this forum do not belong to either category :(

mahakavi
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by mahakavi »

I am sure arasi will be up in arms again for the following statement I am going to make.
>>Listen, please don’t evesdrop<<
Did you notice the spelling above? The proper word is "eavesdrop" and not "evesdrop"
The latter eve's drop (?) ironically implies "the ornament(?) dropped by Eve". The expression "eavesdrop" came into usage to describe the act when one listens to a private conversation of another by staying close to the eaves (overhanging lower edge of the roof) of a neighbor's house to know some secrets. Now it applies to secret recording too. OK, with that off my chest, let me make my observation regarding the merit of the argument. :!:

A speech, performance, writing etc., of an individual is his/her personal asset and the individual has every right to protect it. So if the individual has made that declaration public, it has got to be honored. If we record it clandestinely and use it just for our own listening pleasure later it may still be objected to by the artiste. But to exchange it with others without the written (or oral, if the musician is a friend/relative) consent of the artiste in question is a "no, no".There is no question of arguing that other musicians do not follow that pattern. To each his own. Per the saying, "those who live by the sword die by the sword", anybody who is at discord with the public will have to face the music ( so to speak) and it is their problem. So let us abide by that code.

As for paying royalty to the composers of yore, those composers, to a large extent, did compose to express their inner feelings and it was all a personal avocation rather than a profession. It is all in public domain. There is also no retroactive legal recourse that can be claimed by the descendants of those composers. Life has changed quite a bit from the times that have gone by. Nowadays music is a profession---like it or not. Accordingly those musicians who want to protect the fruits of their labor through copyright are entitled to such protection. Let us not worry about their "bad" publicity in doing so. It is up to them. If we don't buy their products (but only "steal" them from internet, although through private exchange) the musicians are not going to benefit. There is also no guarantee that once you "sampled" their music on the web, you are going to rush out and buy their CDs or DVDs.

If some other musicians permit such exchange, they probably figure that they can gain loyalty from such fans to increase attendance for their live concerts (ticketed, of course!). If they attend and record, it is better than not attending and not buying. So there is a marketing strategy there.

Let us not take these "errant" musicians to task (!). They are exercising their privilege. If we disagree with their stance, we can stay away from their concerts and avoid buying their products. It is that simple.

ragam-talam
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by ragam-talam »

I sincerely hope the likes of TMK and VS will remove any trace of rasikas' claps or appreciative remarks from the recordings they make available for sale. This is to make sure rasika's copyrights are not infringed upon. If these artistes do insist on breaking these copyrights, I feel we rasikas should take collective action against them.

TMK has been an obnoxious person for a while now. It seems ever since VS joined hands with him on the jugalbandi circus last year, he is also fast turning out to be a grumpy lad. I hope he burns all the private recordings he must have of his guru DKJ!

Pathetic indeed.

bilahari
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by bilahari »

I don't think anyone on the forum is condoning illegal recordings. I also think most of us recognise that music is indeed a business, musicians do indeed need the means to survive, etc. It is the lack of evidence presented to support the authors' rather sweeping conclusions in the article that is troubling.

bilahari
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by bilahari »

I find the answer to the question, "haven’t musicians listened to yesteryear stalwarts through illegal recordings? What’s wrong if others do", especially ridiculous. There were no microgadgets at the time, so the recordings made at the time were legal? I thought the authors define legality as the explicit consent of the musicians? Did ARI, MMI, SSI, et al consent to each recording made and circulated?

tiruppugazh
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by tiruppugazh »

There are several things wrong with what Mr TM Krishna and Vijay Siva have said. I will focus my attention on Mr TM Krishna mainly because he is the most vocal of the two and seems to have the greater visibility of the two. Moreover, these days, he seems to have developed a strange need to communicate his (sometimes immature) view on everything from terrorism to hanging to saxophone artistes to piano artists to Sampradaya Pradarshini to Fermat's last theorem!

The fundamental problem appears to be one of Copyright. The copyright for the song's lyrics belongs to the composer. The artiste does not use the composition under a license and does not pay the composer a royalty for use of the compositions. The rights for the performance actually belong either to the recording company or the organiser or artiste (depending on the way the contract is constructed). The copyright for the interpretation that the performer presents on stage belongs to the performer's guru. The performer pays the composer and the guru a royalty?

Bottom line is that this whole area is not quite black-and-white, especially in India.

That doesn't mean that we do not strive for a better world. We should debate and explore a new world order. No doubt.

But by Mr TM Krishna?

Let us take the case of a Jaya TV performance. The rights for this belongs to Jaya TV.

Yet, we find that TM Krishna's own website pointing all visitors proudly to a YouTube channel in which he has provided links to videos of his own performance for Jaya TV.

For those that want the link, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/user/articature

Ok, I will give Mr TM Krishna the benefit of doubt. Perhaps he did not upload these videos onto YouTube and of course, going strictly by YouTube's copyright policy, it is only the uploader that has to clear copyright violation issues. However, by providing links to these videos Mr TM Krishna has legitimized these uploads and endorsed them, thereby accepting moral and legal liability for any copyright violations thereof.

So is Krishna saying that piracy is ok as long as he is the pirate? In other words, he is saying that he is able to exercise restraint in the extent and texture of piracy because he knows he is an upright and honorable man. The law doesn't work that way Mr TM Krishna.

And by then taking a moral stance against piracy, you are demonstrating nothing but (ironically, a word that rhymes with piracy) hypocrisy!

I do not believe the pakkavadhyam artistes who also have rights in the material put together on Mr TM Krishna's YouTube Channel have been paid for an abuse of their copyright.

Mr Krishna's attitude shines most clearly in his treatment of musicians from "yesteryear". In response to a point that we have all heard, grown and learned from bootleg recordings of musicians, Mr TM Krishna says that it is "Highly probable that those recordings have passed the legal test since the art of secret recording was unheard of then as minuscule gadgets were yet to be invented."

So let's get this right. As long as illegal recordings are made using large equipment, Mr TM Krishna is ok with it? The only test of violation that he seems to apply is one of size of device! In other words, he cleanses his guilt by saying that because the equipment used was likely to have been big (and therefore visible), the artistes SHOULD have known and given their nod of approval. There is one phrase that comes to mind to describe Mr Krishna's position and that is: "immature convenience to rationalize an untenable position".

My view is that a considered and mature debate on piracy is required, but it is best that this debate is carried out by those amongst us who are not hypocrites.


Nick H
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by Nick H »

Very interesting comments. I think that the article might have been better reasoned had it been written by rajeshnat and others here! Of course, there is always that sub-editor's pen; we do not know how much has been omitted from the original manuscript.

rajeshnat... true, I chose a giant band with a huge world-wide following for my example, but there are many "smaller" artists who find that the principle works for them too. I chose the example because many of the very big names in Western Rock are very much against such freedom with their music

Mahakavi, hats off again to your eye for detail: something in that title bothered me, but I had not worked it out. The New Indian Express does not have a high standard of English, though I appreciate their coverage of issues in India.

It has been said by someone above, that if an artist does not want their performance recorded, then we should respect that. I have no problem with that at all. I have problems, though, with the "logic" of the arguments, and with the assertion that damage has been caused to the individual artist in any way by personal recordings.

I, like Sathej, prefer to go to concerts than to buy CDs. My CD collection mostly dates from my London days when my appetite exceeded the availability. However, if I was recording concerts by a particular artist, I'd probably be buying CDs by them as well.

tiruppugazh, there is copyright in a performance or a recording, as well as in a composition (I haven't read the act that r-t kindly posted. not sure if I have the brain cells for it <Blush>). Whilst you are quite possibly right in your assumptions as to who would own the copyright in some of the instances you mention, I doubt that the rights in a performance would pass to the concert organiser without a specific contract to that effect.

ragam-talam
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by ragam-talam »

In the office where I work, there's a sign above the photocopier that says you are allowed to make a single copy for your personal use without any requirement for copyright approval etc.
So long as the person is not using the audio copy for personal gain (i.e. selling it), this seems to be somewhat similar to the photocopying example above?

There are several concerts where nobody records, including the organisers. Does this mean these concerts should disappear into posterity without any recording of them at all?

Personally, I too can't stand many of the CDs that are available for sale - they are too sanitised for my taste. The live recordings in my collection are the ones I listen to again and again.

Nick H
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by Nick H »

Personally, I too can't stand many of the CDs that are available for sale - they are too sanitised for my taste.
Or over-engineered due to compulsive knob-twiddling. I have a BMK CD that is fit only to be thrown away due to the intrusive echo on it.

I've pondered the ephemeral nature of music: there is so much in a great performance that bears listening to over and over and over --- and yet, in it's "natural" live state, it is performed, heard ...and gone in the same moment. Perhaps this is why carnatic rasikas develop such memories and attention to detail.

Digression, again. Sorry!

mahakavi
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by mahakavi »

ragam-talam wrote:In the office where I work, there's a sign above the photocopier that says you are allowed to make a single copy for your personal use without any requirement for copyright approval etc.
So long as the person is not using the audio copy for personal gain (i.e. selling it), this seems to be somewhat similar to the photocopying example above?

Yes, you are right. One copy for personal use in written material. Same with audio (unless it is prohibited by the owner in the beginning as it happens in the case of TMK and VS now). If you look at the article that is being copied it (the journal or magazine) explicitly permits you to make one copy. To transmit the personal recording over the internet is a NO, NO! It is akin to making multiple copies of written material for distribution. It does not matter whether the transmitting person makes a gain or not. Distribution without permission (and paying fee to the owner) is prohibited by copyright laws. The audio here is getting distributed without permission

There are several concerts where nobody records, including the organisers. Does this mean these concerts should disappear into posterity without any recording of them at all?
Why not? How many concerts in the past went into the thin air? Is there a rule that every concert ever rendered must be recorded and archived? Many times it would be a waste of magnetic memory or cyberspace.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I sincerely hope the likes of TMK and VS will remove any trace of rasikas' claps or appreciative remarks from the recordings they make available for sale. This is to make sure rasika's copyrights are not infringed upon. If these artistes do insist on breaking these copyrights, I feel we rasikas should take collective action against them.
:)

That is indeed a unique take on this issue, r-t. Funny.

Leaving the legality aside ( if it is illegal, it is illegal, no point in discussing that point ), if TMK-VS are really worried about commericial sales of such concert recordings, they can make a bigger stink about this if a particular concert is being officially recorded and there is a reasonable chance for a commercial release. That would make a lot of sense.

Otherwise, recording on cell-phones and sharing that marginal quality recordings among family and friends should only enhance their brand and should in theory increase concert attendance. I do not think it will have any effect on their regular studio recorded commercial albums.

Ramanathan, I understand what you are saying. Those who are not in the scene do not understand the full picture.
I am interested in hearing your counter points on the above two issues, keeping it with in that narrow and restricted scope.

mahakavi
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by mahakavi »

ragam-talam wrote:I sincerely hope the likes of TMK and VS will remove any trace of rasikas' claps or appreciative remarks from the recordings they make available for sale. This is to make sure rasika's copyrights are not infringed upon. If these artistes do insist on breaking these copyrights, I feel we rasikas should take collective action against them.
I am just stretching this argument. If the applause is included in the commercial recordings, it is done by the recording company, not at the behest of the musician. Assume, the applaluse is the copyright of the rasikas. Can you prove that a particular handclap out of the group is yours (similar to what the musician can prove that it is his voice)? If it is a class action suit that you are considering how will you proceed? In most class action suits there is at least one individual who has been a victim. In the collective applause you can't prove a single signature to bank on.

Nick H
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by Nick H »

ramanathan wrote:One should either be a musician or should have invested time & money in a non-remunerative business like classical music, to understand and empathize with what Vijay & TM are trying to convey... 99% of the esteemed members of this forum do not belong to either category :(
But we're listening, and I am sure that many of us do not believe in cannot understand.

99%? There are quite a few musician members, and many more that belong to their families, or have had close association with them.

Please do not give us you wouldn't understand: please give us explanation!

mahakavi
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by mahakavi »

What Ramanathan means is that 99% of the members (around 8000 or so) are spectators. In that sense the interest of the majority of us is different from that of the performing musicians. The sympathy of those who are closely associated with the musicians should jibe with the interest of the musicians.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by vasanthakokilam »

"Haven’t musicians listened to yesteryear stalwarts through illegal recordings? What’s wrong if others do?"

"Highly probable that those recordings have passed the legal test since the art of secret recording was unheard of then as minuscule gadgets were yet to be invented"
As others have commented, their answers do not make much sense. I am not sure if they are making a legal argument or ethical argument. We should appreciate the fact they have taken on these 'uncomfortable' questions head on... but the responses are quite weak on both counts. Let us say someone recorded on a big spool tape in clear view of the performers in the 50s. Let us also assume that there is some level of consent to that recording. But that does not give any right to TMK and VS to have access to the recordings and listen to them. Even more so, if they used that to learn and incorporate those ideas they heard in those recordings in their professional singing.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Now that the current issue has been raised by two carnatic musicians, it would be appropriate for the carnatic musicians to seek the permission of the lyricists or their legal heirs (who would be owners of the copyright of the songs) before singing the lyricists' songs in public.

mahakavi
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by mahakavi »

This is a catch 22 situation. TMK and VS have voiced their objection for recording their music by unauthorized individuals. That is the fundamental point. From that viewpoint it is also fair that if a songwriter's song (be they a vAggEyakara or just a lyricist) is sung by these two maverick musicians the songwriter's permission must be sought and a royalty paid per each singing. However, the songwriter may be more interested in getting his songs popularized rather than remunerated (just like beginning musicians/dancers do not get paid for their initial stage appearance). That is because the musicians do not have to sing those songs which would demand a royalty. They may stick to those which are in the "public" domain (not bearing copyright). Besides, the songwriters have to declare their objection to singing their songs by musicians in order to enforce/monitor. Would they resort to it? If they do, their works would not see the light of the day. The other musicians who do not object to the recording of their performance would expect a reciprocal understanding too from the lyricists.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by vasanthakokilam »

>Besides, the songwriters have to declare their objection to singing their songs by musicians in order to enforce/monitor.

Well, that may be so, but then TMK-VS go on to say this as well: "5. Absence of “not to record” warning message does not mean you can record." ;)

gobilalitha
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by gobilalitha »

I once again wish to voice my disappointment of having lost the valuable contributions of s_hari,one of our knowledgable forumites in these circumstances. gobilalitha

harimau
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by harimau »

This is an emotional issue for musicians and rasikas but one needs to look at the situation dispassionately.

Royalties to Composers/Copyright holders of lyrics

Copyrights used to be for 28 years in India renewable for an additional 28 years. Even if the sainted Thyagaraja, Deekshithar and Syama Sastri had the bright idea of protecting their works by copyright, the copyrights have long since expired and so T M Krishna, Vijay Siva and other musicians do not owe any royalties to any descendants of these composers. There is also some question as to when the Copyright Act of India came into effect (I am not going to look this up; you can Google for that information if you want it so badly) so these persons may well have lived before there was any copyright in India.

That raises the issue of copyrights held by contemporary composers and/or recently deceased composers such as Periasamy Thooran, Papanasam Sivan, Thanjavur Sankara Iyer, Ambujam Krishna, Rukmini Ramani, "Spencer" R. Venugopal, D. Pattammal, your neighborhood mami who in her spare time pens a couple of thousand kritis, etc. Clearly, copyright for these works of literary merit rests with the authors and musicians have no right to perform these works without payment of a royalty to the copyright holders. Most of Periasamy Thooran's kritis are published by the Annamalai University and the books clearly mention that copyright rules apply... you may think it applies only to reproducing the books but the courts are the final arbiters of any disagreement about whether it applies to performing the songs or not and case law from other countries who derive their legal system from the English Common Law is on the side of the composers.

You would notice that in the US, many restaurants have forbidden their employees from singing "Happy Birthday To You" to any customer who eats at their restaurants on their birthdays. Olive Garden has substituted a new song "Happy, Happy Birthday" sung to a different tune, for example. This is because the writer of that song has demanded royalties every time the song was sung and threatened to sue restaurant chains which may be forced to cough up royalties in the millions of dollars. You do hear it on the radio quite a bit but then the radio stations have a method to track what song was played how many times and are able to pay royalties to the composer on the pay-per-use principle.

Thus, T M Krishna is liable each time he sings "Kaa Vaa Vaa", "Muruga Muruga Endral Urugadho Nenjam" or "Vaa Muruga Vaa".

Concert recordings cannibalize CD sales

This seems like a valid point and one merely has to figure out how to ensure that the musicians get a fair deal.

But let us examine this issue in a slightly different light.

If T M Krishna has issued a CD with swarajatis by Syama Sastri as he has done, do people walk ot of his concert when he starts "Rave Himagiri Kumari" in Todi? They don't. So, clearly CDs do not impact concert attendance. Here is one instance of availability of a permanent copy of a performance not affecting attendance at an event which is primarily a transient performance such as a kutcheri. Then we can conclude that availability of live recordings of concerts will not affect the die-hard fans from attending future concerts of the musician.

Conversely, if T M Krishna feels that concert recordings will affect CD sales, he would not have sung "Rave Himagiri Kumari" in a CD. In fact, the ideal solution for musicians would be to sing mutually exclusive compositions in concerts and on commercial CDs. Thus, the concerts could be of the kritis of neighborhood mamis and the CDs could be of the kritis of Thyagaraja, etc., (or, vice versa) and there would be a full market for each.

mahakavi
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by mahakavi »

Well, there are still some issues to be settled in this matter.
1. Music is a business now and musicians are businessmen. It is just like the practice of medicine is a business and the doctors are businessmen, whether we like that concept or not. The doctors want their fees upon your visit and then they get additional revenue from insurance companies, pharma companies, and other miscellaneous outfits. It is a multi-pronged business outfit. Same with musicians. They get paid when they give concerts, when they record the CDs, then royalty on the sales of CDs, and then from websites which play the songs rendered by them (such as raaga.com, musicindiaonline.com etc.). So all musicians are trying to maximize their revenue streams. If their CDs don't sell as well as they used to they can cite the illegal recordings and sharing as a possible reason. They don't have to prove the source of the decline through expensive surveys and marketing studies.
2. If some of us think by recording and sharing the music of a musician we are promoting his brand name, we are sadly mistaken. The brand name promotion has to be endorsed by the musician. Otherwise it amounts to piracy.
3. If we like a musician's music we have to pay for it--either live concerts or CDs/DVDs. When we attend live concerts the admission price we pay entitles us only for one real-time listening. For repeat listening you have to pay again--such as by buying an authorized recording, and not a bootlegged version. If we don't like the policy of the musician when he enforces it, then we can abstain from attending his concerts and stop buying the media products with his performance. It is that simple.
4. Finally, are we trying to convince TMK and his cohorts to change their hearts and relent on their stand? It will not happen. This discussion about the right/wrong, ethical/unethical, moral/immoral aspects will go on indefinitely but to no avail. Besides, if someone is adamant about their stand (as to not being amenable for compromise) do we want to support them (when we disagree with them vehemently)?
It is better to part ways without any animosity. If the musician's pocketbook gets hurt in the future as a result of his attitude/policy then there is no one to blame but himself.

cacm
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by cacm »

Let me inject an anectodal note to this serious discussion: In 1966 I went to Chennai with a Sony reel to reel recorder which I presented to MMI .I wanted to record his '66 Music Academy concert as I wanted to play it back to him. I asked him for his permission & he said: YOU are the only one so far who has asked me for permission to record! When you show up you will find close to 20 recorders going on with NONE of them asking permission from me or the accompanying artists. I actually FOUND this to be true.....In addition I was refused admission by the authorities & MMI sent Vembu IYER to get me into the back of the stage! I actually had to bribe the Mic Man rs. 100 to get a plug point...Those were the Golden Days & all the recordings of stalwarts we enjoy were made in a similar fashion I bet. Its a question of : NADHI MOOLAM RISHI MOOLAM etc.....Unless the good Lord intervenes & pulls the plug recordings will be made. The only positive if any with the current discussion is free publicity to the artists which they obviously crave or like trying to sound very moralistic. Makes for good reading......VKV

rajeshnat
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by rajeshnat »

cacm wrote:In 1966 I went to Chennai with a Sony reel to reel recorder which I presented to MMI .I wanted to record his '66 Music Academy concert as I wanted to play it back to him. I asked him for his permission & he said: YOU are the only one so far who has asked me for permission to record! When you show up you will find close to 20 recorders going on with NONE of them asking permission from me or the accompanying artists. I actually FOUND this to be true.....In addition I was refused admission by the authorities & MMI sent Vembu IYER to get me into the back of the stage! I actually had to bribe the Mic Man rs. 100 to get a plug point..
VKV Sir,
That is interesting anecdote. When mmi told you "When you show up you will find close to 20 recorders going on with NONE of them asking permission from me or the accompanying artists." , that means even those anthakAlathu musicians wanted to be paid for their musical merit . So at any time musicians want some kind of royalty to be paid and not be bootlegged. Hear hear every musician from mmi to tmk are fairly consistent in their stand about non consented concert recordings.

You paid 100 Rs in 1966,that is a lot of money, with that money you could have bought half a ground in poonamalee then ;) , you would be a millionaire now.
Last edited by rajeshnat on 12 Jul 2010, 12:20, edited 1 time in total.

rajeshnat
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by rajeshnat »

harimau wrote: That raises the issue of copyrights held by contemporary composers and/or recently deceased composers such as Periasamy Thooran, Papanasam Sivan, Thanjavur Sankara Iyer, Ambujam Krishna, Rukmini Ramani, "Spencer" R. Venugopal, D. Pattammal, your neighborhood mami who in her spare time pens a couple of thousand kritis, etc. Clearly, copyright for these works of literary merit rests with the authors and musicians have no right to perform these works without payment of a royalty to the copyright holders.
Harimau
I am very surprised with that . I was thinking that as per law only when the vidwans/vidushis record and sell commercial cassettes they have to pay royalty to the composers .When you say even for performing the rule is applicable , it is a big surprise.Thanks for that info.
I can attest for sure for one contemporary composer "arasi" , she does not mind if any musicians take up her numbers in their concerts , and she will not sue .

Nick H
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by Nick H »

mahakavi, referring to a now much earlier post about understanding the situation of the musician, I think that a lot of rasikas brush to one side their need to eat, and to feed and house their families. Worse, sometimes, they are expected to be some sort of saints with no material comforts or ambitions.

Rajeshnat, in UK we have The Performing Rights Society. Even having a radio on in a public place requires an annual licence payment. The PRS collect and distribute royalty payments to performers and composers. I've raised this before: not all composers are popular performers ; how are they expected to live? Perhaps they are expected to be saints too. Even those who have been at the top of the performing tree reach an age or state of health where there fee-paid appearances become few and eventually cease --- but others continue to sing their songs.

Harimau is quite right: there comes a time when copyrights expire: there is no legal, moral or ethical requirement to contribute to descendants of the composer/author/artist beyond that point.

I admit that an artist has the right to deny recordings of his concerts --- but I still maintain that private recording does not affect either their audience or their CD sales. However, the performance of songs by living artists is an entirely different matter: the performer pockets their fee; the composer gets nothing. This is where the true iniquity of carnatic music lies. This is what newspaper articles should be written about!

fduddy
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by fduddy »

Hot topic of July the 12th 2010. 525 views and 35 posts in a span of 10/12 hrs.
This is a nice way of garnering PUBLICITY. TMK has mastered this art (if not the music)

ragam-talam
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by ragam-talam »

mahakavi wrote:<ragam-talam> In the office where I work, there's a sign above the photocopier that says you are allowed to make a single copy for your personal use without any requirement for copyright approval etc. So long as the person is not using the audio copy for personal gain (i.e. selling it), this seems to be somewhat similar to the photocopying example above?

Yes, you are right. One copy for personal use in written material. Same with audio (unless it is prohibited by the owner in the beginning as it happens in the case of TMK and VS now).
So you do agree that if someone records a concert, then takes it home and doesn't share it with anyone else, that's ok?

Ragjay
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by Ragjay »

Both these artists have taken upon themselves to morally educate the rasikas of their rights as performers and have dabbled in a territory in which they are novices.While one cannot ignore the fact that the there are issues regarding the performers right, copyright infringement , and the right of the composer, what causes a tort is only infringement of such rights under the act and its applicability The interpretations of the provisions of the Act which deals with such issues,depend on the facts and circumstances of each case, and as to whether these are covered by the exceptions of the act or not are to be decided by the concerned courts It is not an issue to be decided by any one based on his or her or their perceptions and least of all by some one who is a novice Legal principles enshrined in the Act are amplified by the courts in their decisions and such case laws are the guiding light in understanding such principles The article merely gives the perspective of the artists concerned and cannot be construed to be the exact legal position Ragjay
Last edited by Ragjay on 12 Jul 2010, 16:18, edited 2 times in total.

ragam-talam
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by ragam-talam »

Fair use is a limitation on the exclusive rights of copyright holders.
Here's a writeup on what constitutes fair use, at least from a US perspective: Fair Use Frequently Asked Questions (and Answers)
Key points:
3. How Do You Know If It's Fair Use?
There are no clear-cut rules for deciding what's fair use and there are no "automatic" classes of fair uses. Fair use is decided by a judge, on a case by case basis, after balancing the four factors listed in section 107 of the Copyright statute.

The factors to be considered include:
a. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes -- Courts are more likely to find fair use where the use is for noncommercial purposes.
b. The nature of the copyrighted work -- A particular use is more likely to be fair where the copied work is factual rather than creative.
c. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole -- A court will balance this factor toward a finding of fair use where the amount taken is small or insignificant in proportion to the overall work.
d. The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work -- If the court finds the newly created work is not a substitute product for the copyrighted work, it will be more likely to weigh this factor in favor of fair use.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

A cursory reading of the Indian Copyright Act 1957 clarifies the position:-

Section 14 of the Act states the author of a literary work will be the copyright owner and his authorization is required to perform the work in public. After his demise, his legal heirs will be the owners of the copyright until 60 years after his death. Anyone who desires to use his literary work in a performance should get the authorization of the author (during his lifetime) or from his legal heirs after his demise. If no such permission is obtained, the copyright owner(s) can seek legal remedies for compensation. In the carnatic music field, the copyright owners have so far not used this right to sue vocal artistes who are using copyrighted songs.

Section 39 and 52 state that a performing artiste’s right shall NOT be deemed to be infringed by the making of any sound recording or visual recording for the private use of the person making such recording, or solely for the purposes of bona fide teaching, research, or review.

It seems in a Carnatic Music programme all rasikas can rightfully record a performance for their personal use! In that case all of them may also do this boldly raising their hands holding the cell-phones or any other gadget of recording!

krvramani
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by krvramani »

Dear Friends!
With my due respects to the talent of Vijay Shiva, I would like to submit that he has over-reacted on the issue of eavesdropping. Let us forget about the royalty business. Frankly, how many vidwans have cared to allot at least one percent of their fabulous earnings towards the upkeep of the memorials as well as taking care of poor descendants of the Trinity? In the recent Thiruvaiyaru Utsavam, except Dr.Ramani, Umayalpuram Sivaraman, Sudha Raghunathan(regular visitors) and a few recognizable vidwans, many leading artists have coolly stayed away. Why can't these so-called leading vidwans come to this yearly festival and pay homage to that Great Saint, using whose "Kritis" these people made a fast buck and are leading a comfortable life? I was really pained to see the rank commercial mindset of our vidwans. K.R.Venkataramani

Nick H
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by Nick H »

Section 39 and 52 state that a performing artiste’s right shall NOT be deemed to be infringed by the making of any sound recording or visual recording for the private use of the person making such recording, or solely for the purposes of bona fide teaching, research, or review.

It seems in a Carnatic Music programme all rasikas can rightfully record a performance for their personal use! In that case all of them may also do this boldly raising their hands holding the cell-phones or any other gadget of recording!
That is really very interesting indeed, Pratyaksham Bala.

It seems reasonable to me that the artist, or even the sabha, should have the right to ban recording, but is any such right allowed by the law?

I have a worry that, if the "right to record for personal use" becomes established, it will add yet another opportunity for audience bad behaviour. Already people seem to think that the camera in hand constitutes a licence to dance around obstructing the enjoyment of others: Imagine what it would be like if half a dozen people took to video-ing the concerts they attend!

reminder of reality

So far as ordinary audio recording is concerned, and even though some of us here may be in favour of respecting the wishes of the artist, the fact is that people will continue to record from the audience. The fact is that recoding devices will get better and smaller, and, being included on almost everybody's cell phones, are available without even making specific effort to buy them. The device sits in the breast pocket; There is no evidence that it is working. Unless we are to be screened and hand in our electronics outside the hall*, not only can recording by audience members not be stopped, it is bound to become more popular.

With apologies that my poor creativity cannot come up with an equally apt but less offensive expression --- articles such as this are just "pissing into the wind".

I should be very sad indeed not to be able to see Vijay Siva sing (I only make no comment about TMK's singing because I haven't heard it often enough), but surely they had better hone their marketing minds to work within the reality of the situation --- or consider take up banking instead.


*for entirely different reasons, this wouldn't be such a bad idea ;)

srkris
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by srkris »

Copyright appears to be a concept alien to India. Attribution has been here for a long time (centuries/millenia), but not commercial copyright. The law was foisted on us in the colonial period, and we still have maybe not fully gotten to terms with such arcane laws.

Something apparently revolts deep inside the listener's soul when artists claim copyright for exercising their vocal chords in a way that elicits our appreciation. Even the act of paying for the performance of an art is quite new to our culture, but we don't have an alternative for that.

In the old days, the payment was decided after the performance (by the maharajas/patrons), and was commensurate with the level of success of the concert, if I am not wrong. Today artists demand a fixed sum upfront from the organizers, and the audience who eventually foot the bill have no clue what they are paying for.

There must be some historical reasons why we are, the way we are, and not otherwise.

mahakavi
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by mahakavi »

>>So you do agree that if someone records a concert, then takes it home and doesn't share it with anyone else, that's ok?<<

r-t:
You didn't read the parenthetical qualifier I put in. I said "unless it is prohibited by the owner...."
So it is not OK in the case of TMK's music who has publicly prohibited private recordings.

mahakavi
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by mahakavi »

Almost all the viewpoints expressed here were stated in rasikapriya.net a while ago. TMK and company used a legal advisor to muffle and humiliate a rasika (who shared a recording via internet with a friend of his) into rank submission and forced him to "confess" to his crime in seven different music groups. The copyright act was dealt in detail at that time and there was a consensus that all TMK does is just "posturing" and if he decides to go to court, his case would be thrown out. No harm in posturing, right? But then who is going to bell the cat? An individual rasika with a financial might? It would be useful to test the case once for all by someone (with the financial backing of a heavyweight rasika like Nalli Chinnaswamy Chetty, for example) who deliberately records a TMK concert with his full knowledge and wait for TMK to file a court case. That would settle this controversy once for all.

Nick H
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by Nick H »

but... but... we listen to music for relief from such a world, not to throw ourselves into it!

skris... I don't think that the concept of copyright is any more alien to India than is the concept of theft. Do you not think that those who have claimed that the songs of others as their own, in countless movies, did not really know what they were doing? The last time I got into this conversation (here? or another forum?) it was pointed out that many of those Western musicians have stolen each other's music with neither acknowledgement nor payment too.

I don't think that the law has been foisted on anyone, nor do I think that anybody's soul is offended by it. Well, if you say yours is, then of course I can't argue with that ;)

VK RAMAN
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by VK RAMAN »

Let TMK hang himself with his own principle going against - if one gives enough of what others want, others will give enough of what one wants.

thanjavooran
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by thanjavooran »

krvramani wrote:Dear Friends!
With my due respects to the talent of Vijay Shiva, I would like to submit that he has over-reacted on the issue of eavesdropping. Let us forget about the royalty business. Frankly, how many vidwans have cared to allot at least one percent of their fabulous earnings towards the upkeep of the memorials as well as taking care of poor descendants of the Trinity? In the recent Thiruvaiyaru Utsavam, except Dr.Ramani, Umayalpuram Sivaraman, Sudha Raghunathan(regular visitors) and a few recognizable vidwans, many leading artists have coolly stayed away. Why can't these so-called leading vidwans come to this yearly festival and pay homage to that Great Saint, using whose "Kritis" these people made a fast buck and are leading a comfortable life? I was really pained to see the rank commercial mindset of our vidwans. K.R.Venkataramani
Shri K.R. Venkataramani Avl,
Rightly said. I have been repeatedly highlighting this point in a different threads. All these vidwans who can not afford to visit Thiruvaiyaru show more interest in paying homage at Cleveland [the holy place of Saint Thyagaraja ?]

Thanjavooran 12 07 2010

mahakavi
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Re: T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recordi

Post by mahakavi »

thanjavooran wrote: Shri K.R. Venkataramani Avl,
Rightly said. I have been repeatedly highlighting this point in a different threads. All these vidwans who can not afford to visit Thiruvaiyaru show more interest in paying homage at Cleveland [the holy place of Saint Thyagaraja ?]

Thanjavooran 12 07 2010
I agree that tiruvaiyARu is sacred. Of late it is felt by many that during the ArAdhanai it is so congested and the old fervor has gone out of the function. There is also this protest by the fringe elements during the ArAdhanai. Still a few faithful souls make it there often if not every year. Of course, the function goes along every year without any untoward incidents. Police protection is there. Cleveland is a different story. It is in a glorified, hygienic environment and naturally (with expenses paid by the committee) the attraction is there. For tiruvaiyARu the visitors/participants are on their own. Having said that let me hasten to add that for those in Carnatic music profession tiruvaiyARu, at least during the ArAdhanai, is a must-visit place.

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