Earliest carnatic music recording?

smala · Post by **smala** » 12 Oct 2010, 10:04

I guess I'll live without the Choppalli song - renaming does squat - mac still downloads it as textedit file and does not play - I tried with itunes and real player. If there is something else to use or if someone can send by forum email the renamed mp3 file maybe I can listen to it.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Oct 2010, 11:06

s-p, on windows, I did "open with" and pointed it at VLC media player. It played fine. I then added the .mp3 extension to it and double clicked to play it. That worked OK too.

smala · Post by **smala** » 12 Oct 2010, 11:20

vasanthakokilam wrote:s-p, on windows, I did "open with" and pointed it at VLC media player. It played fine. I then added the .mp3 extension to it and double clicked to play it. That worked OK too.

can you send me the mp3 file - to play on mac? thanks.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Oct 2010, 11:28

The 1936 recording is a unique one indeed. Thanks Thimma.

mankuthimma wrote:I forgot about the tag .Ouch.
Isn't it pricesless GNB ?
I did tell Lalgudi , but he was wavering .

You mean Lalgudi was not sure if it is GNB?

It did not sound like GNB .... but then in the early days of recording they really had to sing in high volume into that conical sound capture thingy to get a proper recording, so the voice timbre may have changed. Possibly he sang at this higher pitch those days as well. Using Audacity, I dropped the pitch down by 5 semitones. Then it sounded like the regular GNB pitch we are used to. But my main doubt was in the kalpanaswara section.. That is not quite the GNB style that we hear in later recordings..The pitch reduction did not do much for this portion. I then slowed the tempo down by 12%. Then it was a bit closer but did not quite clinch it. Not that such pitch and tempo reduction techniques are the right ones to use, but I thought I will report my findings.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Oct 2010, 12:16

I took the liberty to reduce the pitch by 5 semi tones for the last song in that 1936 archive Oh Jagadamba..

Now it sounds like the latter day GNB to me.

http://www.mediafire.com/?504m56zqbzs5nje

venkatpv · Post by **venkatpv** » 12 Oct 2010, 16:32

vasanthakokilam wrote:It did not sound like GNB ....

listen to the kambhoji portion of the slokam he sings before Darini telusu (especially from around 11:00 to 11:18) and then listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pmMW3cWswY
that clinched it for me.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 12 Oct 2010, 16:47

shyama-priya wrote:I guess I'll live without the Choppalli song - renaming does squat - mac still downloads it as textedit file and does not play - I tried with itunes and real player. If there is something else to use or if someone can send by forum email the renamed mp3 file maybe I can listen to it.

s-p, I've uploaded the Choppali with the correct extension. Can you see if this one works?

http://uploading.com/files/35315b6f/Choppalli.mp3/

And I use a Mac as well and I had no problems playing it. I recommend VLC rather than iTunes / Real Player. If interested, you can download VLC from the following link.

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-macosx.html

Hope this helps!

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 12 Oct 2010, 18:07

Can I start in alphabetical Order ?
Do you need one one or two representative tracks per artist - for which you have to depend on my Choices
OR
The available tracks with me for all the artists , in a slow progression , so that you dont have to bother about a choice .

And we can discuss , along the way.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 12 Oct 2010, 18:09

vs_manjunath wrote:Coolji- Can U pl post the dates in which GNB's "Ananda Natesha" & " ThAmadame Swami" both in thodi were sung ??
This gives a comparison of GNB's thodi treatment in 1936 & later years!

VSM . Unforunately I am not good at these things . I only build webs that trap musical tracks

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 12 Oct 2010, 18:23

http://www.mediafire.com/?qkalq1db2mx3f
AnanthaLakshmi Sadagopan

smala · Post by **smala** » 12 Oct 2010, 19:02

Mahesh - Thanks, the link works and will get the VLC. VK already sent me a file via email so thanks to VK too.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 12 Oct 2010, 19:53

S-P, as a long-time mac user, I would suggest that you remove the extension from the file you download (for the CSP track and others like it), go to your downloads folder and delete the part after the '.' and replace it with 'mp3' - you do not need VLC to play it....

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 12 Oct 2010, 20:43

MLV sings while Sivaji Ganesan talks.
http://www.mediafire.com/?osv33o9yeac4m72

and MSS sings a duet with Dilip Kumar Roy here
http://www.mediafire.com/?o6prnjxecvgcw6s

smala · Post by **smala** » 14 Oct 2010, 03:30

rshankar wrote:S-P, as a long-time mac user, I would suggest that you remove the extension from the file you download (for the CSP track and others like it), go to your downloads folder and delete the part after the '.' and replace it with 'mp3' - you do not need VLC to play it....

rshankar, how do you view some downloads that include video - I found that I needed quicktime but in this case below even quicktime doesn't work, gives me this :

The movie â€œVTS_01_4 3 MANGALAM AND RASIKAS VIDEO SESSION(2).aviâ€ canâ€™t be opened.

Vikramsampath · Post by **Vikramsampath** » 14 Oct 2010, 21:28

The earliest Carnatic music recordings were of people whom we have now sadly forgotten altogether. During the research of my book 'My name is Gauhar Jaan!--the life and times of a musician' these names resurfaced. And as a student of Carnatic music myself, it was sad to know that the prudery of the decades that they lived in, ensured that the memories of these women got totally obliterated-

a) 1904-05 was when the first South Indian 'Expedition' of the Gramophone Company came to Madras. The pioneering women of this era who recorded 3 min clips of Carnatic music are Miss Dhanakoti of Kanchipuram, Miss Salem Papa, Miss Salem Godaveri (a super star apparently), Miss Bangalore Nagaratnam along with of course someone listed as Pandit Vidyanath Iyer of Tanjore, PS Krishna Iyer etc. These were all 7 inch records. the 10 inch records of this era were along with the same names also those of Miss Ammakannu, Govindaswami Dasu's Band of Madras and members of Vidwan Manoranjan Sabha. 12 Inch series were also made during this time.

b) 1906-07 had the next expedition which had Miss Vadammal of Hyderabad, Miss Bhavani of Kanchipuram, Miss Sivakalundo of Madras, Narayanaswami Iyer on Violin and of course the great Salem Godaveri--all 10 Inch. 12 inch were also made.

c) in 1908 in Madras Miss Lokamba, Miss Vanajatchi. Nagaraja Rao (flute), the Tanjore Band were recorded; the next bacth was that of Thayee and Venkamma, Miss Bavani Sami, Sundari and Varalakshmi, Veena Dhanam's daughters, Tiruchendoor Shanmukha vadivoo, Miss ED Sarathambal of Kanchipuram; in Mysore of Miss Dhanakoti and Sister, Miss Parvati Ammal, Prof Imdad Khan's Sitar, Carnatic band of the Maharaja of Mysore, Bidaram Krishnappa, B Rachappa, M Shamannah, Nagamma and sister.

d) The biggest expedition however was that of the most celebrated of them all--Coimbatore Thayi or Palanikunjaram who had a special 'Coimbatore Thayi sessions' between 29 Aug to 2 Sept 1910--all issued with Violet labels which were reserved for celebrity singers like the super star Gauhar Jaan and Janki Bai,Zohra Bai, Malka Jaan of Agra and others.

Apart from these several un-dated records of artists like Mysore Adilakshmi, Palani Vijayalakshmi, Tirugokarnam T N Manickam, Bangalore Thayi, Udupi Lakshmi Bai, TS Rengammal, Mysore Gowri and others exists.

Sadly NONE of these are part of our 'popular' Carnatic music history--which for us begins ONLY on the day Ariyakudi and others got on to stage

Thanks
Vikram

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 14 Oct 2010, 21:48

Vikram - where are these recordings? Do you have any that you can share with us?

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 14 Oct 2010, 22:38

Thanks for that lovely update , vikramsampath.
MaheshS .. There are a few names from these lists which I can share .

I have updated the 78 RPM Folder with Gauhar Jan's Bhupali , Nagaraja Rao's Hamsadhwani ( CM ) -1908 and a track titled Tamil Drama
http://www.mediafire.com/?bm1niebzcewz7

Vikramsampath · Post by **Vikramsampath** » 15 Oct 2010, 00:59

Hi Mahesh,

Oh yes i have been working on creating an archive of these early recordings of both North and South Indian classical music and also bringing to public attention the names of these pioneering musicians to whom we owe a lot for coming forward to record in the first place. But like most things in our country our regard for the history of music too seems to be quite narrow !
In fact i am currently in Berlin for 3 months trying to dig out precisely some of these old recordings, as also in places like Vienna, Paris and of course London and its EMI archives.
Will certainly share some of these clips with you all--would need to transport them from my laptop from India to the system here...but will do so for sure..atleast a sample each of all the musicians i listed.

If someone in the forum has biographical information regarding these ppl please do share them...will just make my research a little more simpler

Thanks
Vikram

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 15 Oct 2010, 01:18

Great to read your post, Vikram. Your website is quite informative.
The book sounds interesting. Hope it's easily available in the market place.

Btw, the following comment at this youtube page GAUHER JAN FIRST INDIAN RECORD IN KOLKATTA may warrant further investigation:
"First of all, Gauhar Jan was not a Bengali... She was not even the first recording artiste... The first recording artistes were Sashimukhi and Phanibala... The first recording was madeï»¿ in 1902... Gauhar Janï»¿ too made reocrdings in 1902 but she was not the first one to record..."

Vikramsampath · Post by **Vikramsampath** » 15 Oct 2010, 01:58

Thanks Ragam Talam ! Have faced this query several times.
I dont know how youtube tags its videos...but nonetheless i have heard this argument that Gauhar was not the first indian etc .
What she certainly was, was the FIRST INDIAN CLASSICAL MUSICIAN to be recorded and whose records were commerically made available.
Sasi Mukhi and Phani bala (and Saila Bai) who preceded Gauhar in recording were nautch girls whom Gaisberg, the recording expert mentions (the first two) as "nautch girls with miserable voices" !
The point is these were not commercial recordings at all and more so as auditions to test the recording equipment--gauhar being the 'price-catch'.
And well, one is really not concerned whether Gauhar Jaan was Bengali or not right? She was not even Indian by origin and was an Armenian Christian with a British grandfather, born Angelina Yeoward but converted to Islam under difficult circumstances.
We can quibble about chronology of the first Indian voice to be etched etc...in which case even Sashi Mukhi and Phani Bala were NOT the first...in fact the first Indian recordings were not even taken in India but in London sometime in 1898. there were 47 recordings of Captain Bholanath, Dr Harnaamdas and Ahmed of recitations in Indian languages, gurumukhi verses etc..but u wouldnt call these "recordings" of music., would u? Anyway the gramophone company in those days was least interested in the musical content they recorded but were putting together an ethonological collection of voices from diff parts of the world.

Vikramsampath · Post by **Vikramsampath** » 15 Oct 2010, 01:59

Oh yeah..forgot to answer ur query Ragm-Talam----yes i think the book is quite easily available in the market. Else, the online link is always there

http://www.vikramsampath.com/gauhar_buy.html

Thanks
Vikram

Vikramsampath · Post by **Vikramsampath** » 15 Oct 2010, 02:29

Please find below the link for the clips of Salem Godaveri, Bangalore Thayi, Bangalore Nagaratnamma and part 1 of Coimbatore Thayi's Viriboni Varnam. these have all been ripped from original 78 rpm's and digitized...A few other clips which i could share only when i am back in India clearly show that Carnatic music had a very different character in the early 20th Century. Reason could be the harmonium and tabla accompaniments which made the renditions less gamaka and brigha driven as we find today!!

some of the incidental noise in the clips is undesirable no doubt, but sometimes becomes very tough to eliminate (or atleast i have found so...may be someone here can do better on that front)

http://www.mediafire.com/?1jl77l6lak7qg

Link below has the clips of a few Hindustani musicians- my heroine Gauhar Jaan's evergreen dadra in Raga Ghara 'Aan Baan Jiya mein laagi' and those of Zohra Bai, Malka Jaan Agrewali and Janki Bai of Allahabad (also called Chappan Churi as she had 56 attacks with a knife on her face by a disgruntled lover!!!)

Please notice the annoucnements at the end of the clip by each of these women which as many of you would know was necessary as all these are pre-1908 recordings and would be sent for pressing and manufacture to Hanover in Germany and not in India. The technicians there would listen to the annoucements and then identify the record, put labels and send it back to India for sales! After 1908, Calcutta had its own record manufacture plant at Sealdah and so annoucements began to disappear.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ia8x68ncpgmii

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 15 Oct 2010, 05:11

Vikram - thank you for your detailed history and these clips - they are witnesses to more than just the changes in the practice of CM - they are witnesses to social traditions. Best wishes on your quest in Berlin...
A question though - these 'nautch girls' as they were so dismissively called by the recording engineers, weren't they in reality the custodians of art (classical for the most part) and culture? As I understand it, many of the princes and men from noble families of yesteryear were trained by these women in 'zarAfat' and 'tehzIb'!

Sreeni Rajarao · Post by **Sreeni Rajarao** » 15 Oct 2010, 06:17

Vikram,
Thanks for the fascinating chronicles!
In posting # 40, you mention that Vidwan B Rachappa had recorded in 1908. I am not sure about his exact time frame but I think he would have been too young to have recorded in 1908, unless he was very close in age to his Guru Bidaram Krishnappa (1866 - 1931), which I doubt.

Kulkarni Sir,
This thread is made for generous people like you and greedy people like me!
I mean, Thank you!
Sreeni Rajarao

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 15 Oct 2010, 06:59

Vikram:

Great!
Your admirable efforts bring out the earliest recordings of CM including those of Miss Bangalore Nagaratnam -- Bengaluru Nagarathnamma, the doyen of CM who constructed Sri Thyagaraja Memorial at Thiruvaiyaru in 1920.

http://www.kamat.com/jyotsna/blog/bnr.jpg

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 15 Oct 2010, 07:10

Vikram - Gauhar Jaan is intoxicating! THANKS!!

Vikramsampath · Post by **Vikramsampath** » 15 Oct 2010, 11:10

rshankar wrote:Vikram - thank you for your detailed history and these clips - they are witnesses to more than just the changes in the practice of CM - they are witnesses to social traditions. Best wishes on your quest in Berlin...
A question though - these 'nautch girls' as they were so dismissively called by the recording engineers, weren't they in reality the custodians of art (classical for the most part) and culture? As I understand it, many of the princes and men from noble families of yesteryear were trained by these women in 'zarAfat' and 'tehzIb'!

Totally agree rshankar! Nobles would send their sons to the kothas as a training school of sorts in etiquette. But the British Govt, the missionaries or even the recording agents didnt realize the subtle hierarchy within which the tawaif community operated and equated them all as nautch girls or mere common prostitutes. The complex pyramid of social hierarchy existed there where the Bais were at the top (sang only), Jaans below (sang and danced) and a host of layers below like Mirasans, Khanajis, Dominis etc and it was the Thakahis /Randis who actually could be equated to a prostitute. But then the makers of the Anti-Nautch Campaign against the Tawaifs and the Devadasis wouldnt care much for these subtleties and banned them all !

Oh yes, she indeed is intoxicating and has possessed me for quite sometime at least !!

Vikramsampath · Post by **Vikramsampath** » 15 Oct 2010, 11:14

Sreeni Rajarao wrote:Vikram,
Thanks for the fascinating chronicles!
In posting # 40, you mention that Vidwan B Rachappa had recorded in 1908. I am not sure about his exact time frame but I think he would have been too young to have recorded in 1908, unless he was very close in age to his Guru Bidaram Krishnappa (1866 - 1931), which I doubt.

Kulkarni Sir,
This thread is made for generous people like you and greedy people like me!
I mean, Thank you!
Sreeni Rajarao

Not sure about Rachappa's exact time period. But his records do fall under this time-span--till almost about 1914.(GC- N series). But I would have to check his time period.

Vikramsampath · Post by **Vikramsampath** » 15 Oct 2010, 11:19

Wonder if smone was able to decipher the words of Salem Godaveri's rendition...hers belong to the earliest of the accoustic era when the singers had to put their head into a big horn and shout as loudly as one could to vibrate the recording equipment on the other end and etch grooves on the shellac ! So in that shrill rendition, the words get totally lost....but the accounts of some of the recording experts, especially those of the Pathe Company (from Paris) on Salem Godaveri are quite spectacular. She seemed to have lived like a queen in Madras, possibly in the George Town area and bargained high salary for her services for recording !!!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 15 Oct 2010, 11:38

Vikram - came across this Hindu article: http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/article429071.ece
Are you learning veena with Jayanthi?

It's interesting to note that all these early voices were of women! Do you know who was the first male musician to be recorded - and when?

Also, isn't it a bit ironic that Gauhar Jan was of Armenian descent, later converted to Islam, and sang the first Indian classical song to be recorded!

Are there any recordings of Sashimukhi and Phanibala?

Balummi · Post by **Balummi** » 15 Oct 2010, 16:00

GN Sir's Ananda Natesa Gramaphone record does not seem to be earlier than 1940 . In older records the boss response is poor and only the high frequency is highlighted . His Himagirithanaye and Radha Sametha appear to be earlier recordings . I have a Cutchery set gramaphone record ( now digitalised ) of MMI recorded in 1936 in which he sings RTP in Kalyani . The Pallavi is "Bhajare Re Chitha " . The accompanists are TK Jayarama Iyer on the Violin , Thanjavur Vaidhyanatha Iyer ( Palghat Mani Iyer's Guru ) on the miridangam and Kumbakonam Velu Naicker on the Kanjira . It runs for more than 15 minutes! This record was got from a mamoth film record collector in Sterling Road , Chennai.

Vikramsampath · Post by **Vikramsampath** » 15 Oct 2010, 16:19

ragam-talam wrote:Vikram - came across this Hindu article: http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/article429071.ece
Are you learning veena with Jayanthi?

It's interesting to note that all these early voices were of women! Do you know who was the first male musician to be recorded - and when?

Also, isn't it a bit ironic that Gauhar Jan was of Armenian descent, later converted to Islam, and sang the first Indian classical song to be recorded!

Are there any recordings of Sashimukhi and Phanibala?

Thanks Ragam talam...no im learning vocal music under Dr Jayanthi Kumaresh.
Yes indeed, it is quite a tribute to the grit and determination of women who disregarded lot of superstitions that abounded about recording (things like if you record into that 'evil english instrument' u will lose your voice etc!!) Of course some women like the great Kesarbai Kerkar refused to record even decades after the technology came in to India largely because they didnt want their music to be enjoyed even in 'pan and tea selling shops!" but that is exactly what technology did to our music--democratized it and brought it to the common man's doorsteps at an afforable rate...so to that extent we owe so much to these women, though our modern ears might not find these too aesthetic now!

Well, for all practical purposes Gauhar was almost Indian...she recorded in 20 languages which also included Tamil and Telugu (including a Thyagaraja Kriti Bhajana Parula in Surutti which she learnt from Veena Dhanammal during her trip to Madras for a concert in 1910.) Ariyakudi is said to have learnt several bhajans of hers which were v popular all over the country like Krishna Murari Binati karat etc. Gauhar was also a poetess and composed verses, much like her talented mother Badi Malka Jaan/Victoria Hemmings who wrote an entire Diwan of Urdu poems called 'Makhzan-e-ulfat-e-mallika'. Some of Gauhar's compositions are v popular even now on concert platforms (like Ras Ke Bhare Tore nain in Bhairavi or Kaise yeh dhoom machayi kanhaiya re- thumri in Kafi) though the singers r usually happily oblivious of who the composer is

The first man per se to record was perhaps Lal Chand Boral , the Hindustani musician from Calcutta and a contemporary of Gauhar Jaan. His 10 inch E-series discs were made in the first expedition of 1902-03. In the next expedition Peara Saheb and Ustad Abdul Karim Khan recorded (1904-05).

No as mentioned earlier, the recordings of Fani Bala and Soshi Mukhi were not commercially released in large numbers, though the discography of the times do mention their names. they seem to have sung little verses--almost like rhymes and poems in Bengali and not really 'classical music'.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 15 Oct 2010, 19:28

Vikramsampath wrote: (like Ras Ke Bhare Tore nain in Bhairavi or Kaise yeh dhoom machayi kanhaiya re- thumri in Kafi)

An Armenian-Brit hybrid who converted to islAm, and composed on kRshNa in hindi - talk about blurring of cultural, national, linguistic, and religious boundaries!!

Vikramsampath · Post by **Vikramsampath** » 15 Oct 2010, 19:39

rshankar wrote:An Armenian-Brit hybrid who converted to islAm, and composed on kRshNa in hindi - talk about blurring of cultural, national, linguistic, and religious boundaries!!

U bet ! Shining examples of the composite character of our music!

smala · Post by **smala** » 15 Oct 2010, 21:18

Such fascinating history, any leads on the influences, how/why this leap of faith, more importantly the specific interest in composition and singing occurred in the case of the eminent Gauhar Jaan ? But then Armenians of her time, by and large, derive from a Muslim heritage so the "conversion" or re-conversion to Islam might be more of an academic nature. It is the leap from Turko-Persian influences to the Hindustani scene that makes her a curious character.

An online source seems to state that Abdul Karim Khan may have an early recording pegged at 1905.

http://homepage.mac.com/patrickmoutal/m ... 905%29.mp3

Vikramsampath · Post by **Vikramsampath** » 15 Oct 2010, 21:26

shyama-priya wrote:Such fascinating history, any leads on the influences, how/why this leap of faith, more importantly the specific interest in composition and singing occurred in the case of the eminent Gauhar Jaan ?

An online source seems to state that Abdul Karim Khan may have an early recording pegged at 1905.

http://homepage.mac.com/patrickmoutal/m ... 905%29.mp3

Hmmmm..thats a long story, for which i would have no other option but to request you to read my book!

http://www.vikramsampath.com/books.html

smala · Post by **smala** » 15 Oct 2010, 21:36

I'll get the book. A quick question - her "conversion" or re-conversion (given Armenian Muslim influences) must have been academic, her chief interests in Hindustani music attributable to one or more large influence?

Vikramsampath · Post by **Vikramsampath** » 15 Oct 2010, 21:38

shyama-priya wrote:But then Armenians of her time, by and large, derive from a Muslim heritage so the "conversion" or re-conversion to Islam might be more of an academic nature. It is the leap from Turko-Persian influences to the Hindustani scene that makes her a curious character.

oh no! certainly not the case! Armenians were all largely Christians...u have Armenian churches to this day in several cities incl allahabad and calcutta.

Vikramsampath · Post by **Vikramsampath** » 15 Oct 2010, 21:41

shyama-priya wrote:I'll get the book. A quick question - her "conversion" or re-conversion (given Armenian Muslim influences) must have been academic, her chief interests in Hindustani music attributable to one or more large influence?

Well she got this interest from her mother who was Anglo-Indian...her grandfather was British and her grandmother Hindu ! So i argue in the book that the grandmother must have been a tawaif herself and it was common for british men to keep Indian mistresses or bibis those days (1850's--pre-Mutiny)..else the tawaif community as it operates necessitates a lineage, had gothras too claiming descent right from Urvashi and some other apsaras and one couldn't get in so easily from the outside and be accepted. So she in a way got back to her roots after circumstantial dalliances with other faiths and languages !! does that help?

smala · Post by **smala** » 15 Oct 2010, 22:01

Yes, it does! the mother-grandmother connection is the key. Thanks.

smala · Post by **smala** » 15 Oct 2010, 22:05

Vikram, they were christians of yore with strong muslim influences too - I know a couple of armenians with Muslim names (Zia, Pasha).

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Oct 2010, 00:15

Muslim? Or simply names that come from places that one associates with Islam?

smala · Post by **smala** » 16 Oct 2010, 04:35

Looks like some Iranian and Khurd populations, albeit small numbers, moved into Armenia.

Wiki says :

Islam in Armenia consists mostly of temporary residents from Iran and other countries. There is no native population reported as Muslim.
.....
During the Arabic conquest, Islam came to the Armenians however, almost all Armenians never converted to Islam, since Christians were not required to convert by Muslim law.....
.....
During 1988-1991 the overwhelming majority of Muslim population consisting of Azeris and Muslim Kurds fled the country as a result of the Nagorno-Karabakh War and the ongoing conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan. There is also a significant community of Yazidi Kurds (50-70,000 people), who were not affected by this conflict. Since the early 1990s, Armenia has also attracted diverse esoteric and sectarian groups....

smala · Post by **smala** » 16 Oct 2010, 04:49

The reason for my connecting Muslim influences with Armenia is this. Vikram's heroine chose to convert to Islam, while having a lineage tracing back to a Hindu grandmother. She had an Armenian father, a British grandfather and Anglo-Hindu mother, yet she chose to convert to Islam - rather than re-establishing her Hindu identity through heritage (a heritage she honored in a big way, following up a legacy of music and her compositions on Krishna).

A possibility is that for patrons/artists in HM music, Hindu/Muslim distinctions were not and are not salient.

Vikram may be able to explain this lacuna.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 16 Oct 2010, 08:56

Sadly NONE of these are part of our 'popular' Carnatic music history--which for us begins ONLY on the day Ariyakudi and others got on to stage

Can somebody help me with a quick list of such works of history - apart from the ones that cramp 60 artists into one paperback and the much touted high tech presentations .
My understanding is that there is very little of it . And as a result , Ariyakudi should be , as fascinating a subject as Coimbatore Thayee , from the musical standpoint .
The fact that there is a lack of historical work on a Pre-Ariyakudi generation cannot diminish the fact that Ariyakudis Lifework was indeed a major inflexion point - as far as concert formatting goes .
A pity since since Concerts are almost synonymous with CM , today .

As far as prudery goes . I think it extends to the choice of the artist , even . I have not seen any dare enough to do a biography of a Ariyakudi phase+ post Ariyakudi phase Vidwan - whose memories are recent enough to be able to achieve clarity in the work .
That facet of society which produced the Tawaifs and Nautch girls had the complementary face of the male bastion which indulged in those revelries . Some of whom , we know , were big names in music . But I bet the felicity with which one may pick up a Devadasi's story is matched only by the lack of inspiration to take up the really bold work of the well known high-caste vidwan.

And that is why Society is aware today of Dhanammals pan chewing habits or her rides to the Harrisons Bar , or TNR's expensive perfumes. But not the story of a Vidwan who would drape himself in his angavasthra around his face to drink water , while competing with another for a particular concubine .
Much of this history is painful . Just as the sight of my grand aunt was. Widowed at 16 , forced to shave her head and wear a crimson saree all her life. Sitting in a corner . Right upto an old age of 82.
Bottomline - We have to get out of these double standards quickly if we have to pursue history for the sake of history.

If not , let us just sit back and enjoy the music

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Oct 2010, 10:00

some of the incidental noise in the clips is undesirable no doubt, but sometimes becomes very tough to eliminate (or atleast i have found so...may be someone here can do better on that front)

I tried to eliminate noise on the Salem Godhavari piece: http://www.mediafire.com/?dk0s0wdfwwffggk ( after 20 seconds the NR performance is better )

And as an experiment, given she probably sang at a higher pitch than usual and faster than usual to fit the record size limit, I reduced the pitch by 2 semi tones and slowed the tempo down just a bit. This is just to imagine how she would have sounded outside that recording studio: http://www.mediafire.com/?pz7qnilkmqhrwqn

smala · Post by **smala** » 16 Oct 2010, 12:33

I think my thoughts on the Islam conversion may be answered ....according to info below, the mother adopted Islam while moving to Benares with her Muslim friend and her daughter.

DK who authored the piece but a name and info. appears below at this very interesting site :

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/gauhar.htm

Suresh Chandvankar - 16.11.02
Society of Indian Record Collectors
Mumbai - 400 005, India
E-mail: sschand@tifr.res.in

.....
Born to Anglo-Indian parents, her name was Miss Angelina Yeoward. Her father, William Robert Yeoward, was an Armenian Jew working as an engineer in a factory producing dry ice at Azamgadh near Benares. He married a Jewish lady, Miss Victoria Hemming, around 1870, who was born and brought up in India and had learnt Indian dance and music. Angelina was born in 1873 and was baptized in the Methodist church in Azamgadh. This marriage did not last long due to Victoriaï¿½s love for dance and music and her relations with a Muslim friend named Khurshed. So after the divorce, she moved to Benares with Angelina and Khurshed, adopted Islam as her religion, and daughter and mother chose new names; Gauhar and Malka respectively. In those days, Benares was not only a sacred place, but also a seat of learning, a centre for all the performing arts, including dance, drama and music. She spent eight years learning the art to perfection and emerged as a well-trained BaijiBaiji - Lady, as she had decided to take up the profession of entertainer through dance and music. She became popular as Badi Malka Jan; badi (elder) because at that time three other Malka Jans were famous (viz. Malka Jan of Agra, Malka Jan of Mulk Pukhraj and Malka Jan of Chulbuli) and she was the eldest among them.

Around 1883, the trio moved to Kolkata, a place of great patronage for music and the other arts. In those days, both Hindu and Muslims Baijis from Benares, Agra and Lucknow used to settle in the Bow Bazaar area. The place was famous for courtesans or Kothewalis who would entertain wealthy Jamindars and BabusJamindar - landlord, and Babu - clerk with their art. Some Ustads would train this community after a proper gandabandhanGandabandhan - ceremony in which a teacher (guru) accepts a disciple. Nawab Wajid Ali Shah had settled at Matiaburj near Kolkata in his last days and his court was full of musicians and artists. Young Gauhar Jan [c.1890]In such an atmosphere Badi Malka Jan soon established herself, and within three years she purchased a building at 24 Chitpore Road for Rs.40,000. Little Gauhar, too, was fond of dance and music and took her initial lessons from her mother. She had a sharp memory, intelligence and learned very quickly, and so Malka appointed special teachers for teaching Gauhar languages, literature, and of course, dance and music. Kale Khan of Patiala, alias 'Kalu Ustad', and Ustad Vazir Khan of Rampur trained her in pure and light classical Hindustani vocal music, whereas Ali Baksh and Brindadin Maharaj taught her the Kathak form of dance. Srijanbai taught her dhrupad dhamarDhrupad Dhamar - style of singing in Hindustani vocal tradition, and Charan Das trained her in Bengali KeertanKeertan - devotional form of music. She also learnt from her contemporaries, viz. Mojuddin Khan, Bhaiyya Ganpatrao and Peara Saheb. She sang Tagore songsTagore - Rabindranath Tagore even before the word Rabindra-Sangeet had been coined. She penned several compositions under the name ï¿½Hamdamï¿½, and she also wrote, composed and recorded gazalsgazal - light form of classical music. She could read, write and sing in several languages including Bengali, Hindustani, Gujrathi, Tamil, Marathi, Arabic, Persian, Pushto, French, Peshawari, and English.

......much more at the site.

Awaiting Vikram's input.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 16 Oct 2010, 13:30

VK - the change in speed does make a signficant difference. It sounds less comical, and more musical.

Vikramsampath · Post by **Vikramsampath** » 16 Oct 2010, 14:12

shyama-priya wrote:I think my thoughts on the Islam conversion may be answered ....according to info below, the mother adopted Islam while moving to Benares with her Muslim friend and her daughter.

DK who authored the piece but a name and info. appears below at this very interesting site :

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/gauhar.htm

Suresh Chandvankar - 16.11.02
Society of Indian Record Collectors
Mumbai - 400 005, India
E-mail: sschand@tifr.res.in

.....
Born to Anglo-Indian parents, her name was Miss Angelina Yeoward. Her father, William Robert Yeoward, was an Armenian Jew working as an engineer in a factory producing dry ice at Azamgadh near Benares. He married a Jewish lady, Miss Victoria Hemming, around 1870, who was born and brought up in India and had learnt Indian dance and music. Angelina was born in 1873 and was baptized in the Methodist church in Azamgadh. This marriage did not last long due to Victoriaï¿½s love for dance and music and her relations with a Muslim friend named Khurshed. So after the divorce, she moved to Benares with Angelina and Khurshed, adopted Islam as her religion, and daughter and mother chose new names; Gauhar and Malka respectively. In those days, Benares was not only a sacred place, but also a seat of learning, a centre for all the performing arts, including dance, drama and music. She spent eight years learning the art to perfection and emerged as a well-trained BaijiBaiji - Lady, as she had decided to take up the profession of entertainer through dance and music. She became popular as Badi Malka Jan; badi (elder) because at that time three other Malka Jans were famous (viz. Malka Jan of Agra, Malka Jan of Mulk Pukhraj and Malka Jan of Chulbuli) and she was the eldest among them.

Around 1883, the trio moved to Kolkata, a place of great patronage for music and the other arts. In those days, both Hindu and Muslims Baijis from Benares, Agra and Lucknow used to settle in the Bow Bazaar area. The place was famous for courtesans or Kothewalis who would entertain wealthy Jamindars and BabusJamindar - landlord, and Babu - clerk with their art. Some Ustads would train this community after a proper gandabandhanGandabandhan - ceremony in which a teacher (guru) accepts a disciple. Nawab Wajid Ali Shah had settled at Matiaburj near Kolkata in his last days and his court was full of musicians and artists. Young Gauhar Jan [c.1890]In such an atmosphere Badi Malka Jan soon established herself, and within three years she purchased a building at 24 Chitpore Road for Rs.40,000. Little Gauhar, too, was fond of dance and music and took her initial lessons from her mother. She had a sharp memory, intelligence and learned very quickly, and so Malka appointed special teachers for teaching Gauhar languages, literature, and of course, dance and music. Kale Khan of Patiala, alias 'Kalu Ustad', and Ustad Vazir Khan of Rampur trained her in pure and light classical Hindustani vocal music, whereas Ali Baksh and Brindadin Maharaj taught her the Kathak form of dance. Srijanbai taught her dhrupad dhamarDhrupad Dhamar - style of singing in Hindustani vocal tradition, and Charan Das trained her in Bengali KeertanKeertan - devotional form of music. She also learnt from her contemporaries, viz. Mojuddin Khan, Bhaiyya Ganpatrao and Peara Saheb. She sang Tagore songsTagore - Rabindranath Tagore even before the word Rabindra-Sangeet had been coined. She penned several compositions under the name ï¿½Hamdamï¿½, and she also wrote, composed and recorded gazalsgazal - light form of classical music. She could read, write and sing in several languages including Bengali, Hindustani, Gujrathi, Tamil, Marathi, Arabic, Persian, Pushto, French, Peshawari, and English.

......much more at the site.

Awaiting Vikram's input.

I am certainly no social anthropologist to conclude very decisively whether Armenians are more Muslim than Christian. But certainly in my protagonist's case the cause of conversion was more practical than anthropological. The only error in the above extract is when she is mentioned as a Jew which she was not. Her father was an Armenian Christian and in fact i have included the original documents detailing the marriage of her parents at the Allahabad Holy Trinity Church in 1872 and her own baptism there in 1875. But Victoria's interests in music and dance were not quite appreciated by her husband Robert Yeoward as also his view of her infidelity with an artist called Jogeshwar Bharati. Thats when he divorced her and disowned the daughter too who was barely 5 yrs old. (Of course the father makes several painful entries in the daughter's life thereafter) The daughter goes through a bout of terrible sickness and would have almost died if not for her mother taking the help of Muslim benefactor Khurshid---who obviously did not have JUST philanthropy on his mind, especially when the subject in question was smone as pretty as Victoria ! The trio then shift from Azamgarh to Banaras where Victoria adopts Islam and become Malka Jaan and the little one has no option but to follow the mother. but yes your point about these distinctions blurring among HM artists is well-taken. It was certainly a lot more inclusive.

VK---thanks so much ! Salem Godaveri sounds wonderful now !!! Any idea what the Kriti is? Thought i heard 'thyagaraja' towards the end?

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 16 Oct 2010, 19:01

Salem Godaveri sounds wonderful now !!! Any idea what the Kriti is? Thought i heard 'thyagaraja' towards the end?

Godaveri is singing 'Ninnu vinA gati mAkevaru rA' in balahamsa, by mysUr sadAshiva rAo.