Look who is saying standards are slipping!

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 25 Dec 2010, 06:15

Q: You have heard towering musicians of the past, both vocal and instrumental. Could you tell us whether standards have been kept up now or have fallen from the aesthetic point of view?

A: I had no opportunity of hearing Vidwan Konerirajapuram Vaidyanatha Iyer and the like. I have heard musicians of the subsequent era. Even though, those that I heard lacked in certain aspects of music, they had the main objective, that is, the authentic Carnatic bani. Yes, I may join the purists who say Carnatic music has degenerated with its sturdy roots shaken by way of undue or unnecessary emphasis on rare ragas, improvisation of ragas and krithis just for the sake of platform with no concrete purpose. Above all, degeneration is certainly due to the 'shortcut-to-glory' methods - I mean here scheming for honours, even purchasing honours by adopting unethical methods. I believe these 'shortcut-to-glory' artists will be disappointed a lot when they reflect on what is worthy music. God save Carnatic music.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 25 Dec 2010, 06:50

Wait, so who's this?

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 25 Dec 2010, 07:20

Sri T.R. Mahalingam.
http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/article972598.ece

tiruppugazh · Post by **tiruppugazh** » 25 Dec 2010, 07:41

harimau wrote: Yes, I may join the purists who say Carnatic music has degenerated with its sturdy roots shaken by way of undue or unnecessary emphasis on rare ragas, .

How dare Tyagaraja attempt to compose in so many different ragas?
How dare Syama Sastri sing Chintamani and defeat the giant from Bobbili?
How dare Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan sing Chakravakam, a raga that no one had ever heard of?
How dare Mazhavarayanenthal Subbarama Bhagavatar be known for his swara prastharas in ragas like Malavi and Poornachandrika?
How dare GNB even attempt RTPs in Natabhairavi or elaborate ragas like Andolika?
How dare Semmangudi even attempt Gopika vasantham?
How dare ........................

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Jan 2011, 04:00

As we discussed in another thread, every generation seems to have this feeling that there is degeneration in music. Even the generation prior to what we call the golden era had that sentiment. That is something to reflect about by those who currently hold the view that there is degeneration. May be degeneration is just another word for things changing beyond their comfort zone and what they are used to.

BTW, I liked mAli's deconstruction of the question and not buying into the premise of the question before answering as honestly as he could.

veeyens3 · Post by **veeyens3** » 03 Jan 2011, 07:17

May be degeneration is just another word for things changing beyond their comfort zone and what they are used to.

Every thing in the world is constantly changing at various rates and is beyond anybody's control.The best thing would be accept realities and carry on . Past is history and future is unknown. Let us live the present savouring every moment thanking God for giving us the faculty to do so

kunthalavarali · Post by **kunthalavarali** » 03 Jan 2011, 08:11

Very well said, veeyens3

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Jan 2011, 09:06

Indeed, Veeyens. I do not know how many on the forum know how 'young' you are!
If a ninety plus gentleman can look upon changes this way, others can perhaps pause and ponder over this.
Mali was something of a new phenomenon in our growing years. His music was magic and you looked forward to something unexpected happening in his concert every time you went to hear him (forgetting those inebriated moments). A single line of a song he played was enough of an experience--let alone his playing a whole haunting rAgam.He could produce that kind of music because he was so deeply rooted in CM and was gifted with a superb sense for innovation as well.
There are many like me out there who do not zealously guard CM as if it is sacred to the point that nothing should be changed at all about it--that it should go on and on without being touched by time and by true talent. I hope there are many like me who enjoy a good old traditional concert as much as they do an imaginative exposition which is safely anchored in tradition.

tiruppugazh,

PB,
Thank you for bringing Mali's thoughts.

Sureshpswaran · Post by **Sureshpswaran** » 03 Jan 2011, 12:57

I wont completely agree subscribe with your statement...

The one particilar vocalist who is just making in roads in the Chennai Circle is Shertallay K.N.Ranganatha Sharma. I am following this musician for few years now and felt he certainly fits the bill in keeping the tradition ....

The recent concert at Academy and Krishna Gana Sabha were superb...especially the alapana of Kapi following by the Pallavi...

The last but the least he has been awarded as the Sub Senior Best Vocal Artist by the Academy recently...this also confirms that Madras Music Academy gives credit to quality talent !!! .

thathwamasi · Post by **thathwamasi** » 03 Jan 2011, 13:59

tiruppugazh wrote: How dare Tyagaraja attempt to compose in so many different ragas?
How dare Syama Sastri sing Chintamani and defeat the giant from Bobbili?
How dare Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan sing Chakravakam, a raga that no one had ever heard of?
How dare Mazhavarayanenthal Subbarama Bhagavatar be known for his swara prastharas in ragas like Malavi and Poornachandrika?
How dare GNB even attempt RTPs in Natabhairavi or elaborate ragas like Andolika?
How dare Semmangudi even attempt Gopika vasantham?
How dare ........................

I guess I need to defend Mali here. He didnt say that people should not sing rare raagams at all. He clearly says "undue or unnecessary emphasis on rare ragas, improvisation of ragas and krithis just for the sake of the platform with no concrete purpose."

veeyens3 · Post by **veeyens3** » 03 Jan 2011, 22:08

Change in everything is taking place without even a "thank you" For example the way we dress, the way we build our residences, even food habit. Social and religious ceremonies too have not escaped this morphing. Even seventy years back five day marriages were the norm and nobody ever thought of "Kalyana Mandapams" Weddincoordinators is very recent phenomenon.I well remember the storm it caused in my house when I had the temerity to cut my Kudimi (tuft) and appear infront of my grandma with a cropped head.Now who has a tuft? In food habits too there has been dramatic changes. Orthodox families wont even touch tomato, cabbage, cauliflower ( I do not remember to have seen it) today pizza, pasta noodles rule the roost on the dining tables, probably these did not go well with our habit of sitting cross legged on floor and eating from plantain leaves. We see change everywhere and do not complain. So why should we think that any change in the music field is degeneration and try to give it a bad name. So let us join the crowd and enjoy the constant change. what cannot be cured should be endured Let us not look like a man dresed in three piece suit in a nudist colony

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 03 Jan 2011, 23:48

veeyens3 - ignoring what happens around us and then pointing fingers at CM?

thathwamasi · Post by **thathwamasi** » 10 Jan 2011, 11:10

veeyens3 wrote:Change in everything is taking place without even a "thank you" For example the way we dress, the way we build our residences, even food habit. Social and religious ceremonies too have not escaped this morphing. Even seventy years back five day marriages were the norm and nobody ever thought of "Kalyana Mandapams" Weddincoordinators is very recent phenomenon.I well remember the storm it caused in my house when I had the temerity to cut my Kudimi (tuft) and appear infront of my grandma with a cropped head.Now who has a tuft? In food habits too there has been dramatic changes. Orthodox families wont even touch tomato, cabbage, cauliflower ( I do not remember to have seen it) today pizza, pasta noodles rule the roost on the dining tables, probably these did not go well with our habit of sitting cross legged on floor and eating from plantain leaves. We see change everywhere and do not complain. So why should we think that any change in the music field is degeneration and try to give it a bad name. So let us join the crowd and enjoy the constant change. what cannot be cured should be endured Let us not look like a man dresed in three piece suit in a nudist colony

- Veeyens3 - I respectfully disagree with the analogy here. Carnatic music is something that cannot be compared with any of these "changing" activities like eating or fashion for example. I cannot recall anyone who has attained mukthi through food or fashion. My two cents in this is that carnatic music is not a mere entertainment, where change can be received with a "Thank you". Carnatic music is way beyond that. Whilst change can be encouraged, but the changes suggested have to be analysed to make sure that the very essence of carnatic music (which is Bhakthi) is not lost.

Thanks
T

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 10 Jan 2011, 11:23

I cannot recall anyone who has attained mukthi through food or fashion.

And yet, not wearing animal hide or eating flesh can offer an elated feeling.

But avoiding cabbage, cauliflower and TOMATOES?

That might deprive us of many vitamins and minerals! I've never seen rasam (be it "paruppu", elimichambazham, molagu-jeeragam or (!) poondu) without tomatoes!

Anyway, there must have been some native superfood earlier (probably people ate a lot of keerai koottu in those days

) to balance their diets! :tmi:

the very essence of carnatic music (which is Bhakthi) is not lost.

Isn't this the part where abhangs come?

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 10 Jan 2011, 13:03

Are we not seeing so many youngsters carrying on the tradition set for Carnatic Music? Please see the list below!!

Youngsters Attraction Galaxy of youngsters
Abisheik Raguram
Anahitha
Barat Sundar
Swarna Rethas
Sandeep Narayanan
Subhisha Rangarajan
Sri Ranjini
Iswaria
Brindha manickavachakam
Deepika
Presanna
Nisha Rajagopal
Soundhria
Sankara Narayanan
Sketha Raman
Bhavya and many more and instrumentalist

All a blend of modernity and tradition !
No deviation in spite of changes around!!

venkatakailasam

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Jan 2011, 14:02

Srikant,
Excellent point about abhangs! How else did abhangs reach south of Maharashtra years ago except in bhajan congregations?
Their recent popularity stems from the fact that Aruna and R&G are popular performers who hail from Mumbai.
G.S. Mani and even before him, Muruga Das and others have been singing them. Add to it the Tanjavur rulers and migrants who introduced them to TN.

tatwamasi,
Yes, it's difficult to separate bhakti from CM. Yet, it has room for songs on other themes like Nature, patriotism, philosophy and ideal ways of living. Examples: Subrahmanya Bharati, TiruvaLLuvar and all.

vkailasam,
Indeed. There is hope for CM in youngsters who do not forget tradition while carrying our music into the new era.

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 10 Jan 2011, 23:15

I will add a bit of pepper and salt to what Sri.Veeyenes has already said.

3 generations back : Madisaar Good- 6 yards Bad
2 generations back : 6 yards Good- Churidhar Bad
1 generation back: Churidhar Good- Jeans Bad
Next generation Jeans good- ???? Bad

This can only be called "Change". Whether it is a case of "Slipping Standards"? I do not think so. The standards themselves are changing- not slipping.

Bakthi: Visiting a temple, for instance- in madisaar, saree, churidhar or jeans which is the correct "standard". I see many young girls go to temples in jeans who are also deeply devout.

Also in music the patterns and standards are changing- not slipping. It is also true that people of the earlier generation may not be able to appreciate the "standard" of the next generation.

We should learn to accept changes gracefully and even try to like the new wave- as Veeyenes has nicely suggested, instead of calling it degeneration or slipping of standards.

veeyens3 · Post by **veeyens3** » 10 Jan 2011, 23:54

Music ,in different forms and formats,had played an important role n our lives for ever. For examplee, scholars haveproved people gave it a very high priorityin the lives f people even in Sangam age and if past is any guide to future, it will certainly continue to play a similarpart in the lives of future generations also. But it is not static It is changing in contents and structure with the result it is not the same today as it was two hundred years ago, not to talk about sangam age and it will not be tha same even as early as 2060 Nobody has given us an inalienable right to decide what is appropriate , say in next fifty years.We cannot press pause button on progress, considering that w all realise that music is not an end by itself but only a mean to other end,viz understanding the divinity inone's self and obtain self realisation. With due respect and apologies to grete musicians of earlier generations, I would say they held sway with a very small repertoire of songs compared with , even youngsters mentioned in # 15, while at the same timing admitting to my incompetence to judge their technical standards. Let us not play Sancho Panza to Carnatic Music , Instead encourage many more youngsters May Sri Rama bless you

balakk · Post by **balakk** » 11 Jan 2011, 10:30

I found this interview with Flautist Kudamaloor Janardhanan interesting, especially as a fan of instrumental music:
http://kalachuvadu.com/issue-132/page40.asp

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 11 Jan 2011, 12:01

balakk wrote:I found this interview with Flautist Kudamaloor Janardhanan interesting, especially as a fan of instrumental music:
http://kalachuvadu.com/issue-132/page40.asp

Nice interview. The artiste uses some entertaining analogies to make his points. Thanks for the link.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Jan 2011, 08:12

Yes, quite an engaging one. Fresh ideas.. we may not agree with him on all he says which is fine.. some thoughts are worth a meaningful debates which can lead to useful ideas. But I have to listen to his 'creations' before deciding if he has the stuff to backup his words.

It has enough stuff there that merits a transliteration or translation by a capable person for the benefit of those who can not read Tamil.

Some of the points he talks about are present in this piece by him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVEZdu7pHyE

If you listen on good stereo speakers, the recording quality and special effects come through.. The stereo separation seems to be quite wide, instinctively I turned to the side to see where the sound is coming from.

balakk · Post by **balakk** » 12 Jan 2011, 20:21

Here's an (amateurish) attempt:
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id ... qi5fFY-7Xg

Quite possible that I've made some misrepresentations; apologies to the interviewers/interviewee for that

smala · Post by **smala** » 13 Jan 2011, 01:18

venkatakailasam wrote:Are we not seeing so many youngsters carrying on the tradition set for Carnatic Music? Please see the list below!!

Youngsters Attraction Galaxy of youngsters
Abisheik Raguram
Anahitha
Barat Sundar
Swarna Rethas
Sandeep Narayanan
Subhisha Rangarajan
Sri Ranjini
Iswaria
Brindha manickavachakam
Deepika
Presanna
Nisha Rajagopal
Soundhria
Sankara Narayanan
Sketha Raman
Bhavya and many more and instrumentalist

All a blend of modernity and tradition !
No deviation in spite of changes around!!

venkatakailasam

Akshay Padmanabhan?
What about Srivalson Menon or the youngsters the other side of the river - as seen in the recent Chembai Utsavam uploads - Carnatic is NE Chennai, is NE TN !

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 13 Jan 2011, 05:19

shyama-priya

Omissions are included under " many more"

venkatakailasam

smala · Post by **smala** » 13 Jan 2011, 05:36

Recent revivals of Namasankeertanam, bhajana sampradayam in the south have received an impetus from the efforts of Iskcon and the Hare Krsna emphasis on japa-chanting, bhakti and kirtan within the country (and beyond) - the methodology is simple - easy access to the common person. It's a revival - so something that changes to renew our acquaintance with the old can only be lauded.

CM was and has been always been esoteric. Those adept at languages, familiar with lyrics, their import, had better appreciation for it. Not too many though, took any effort in rendering the content comprehensible.

Abhangs and Purandharadasar kritis were returned to the limelight through particular efforts to make the songs comprehensible - Udayalur always explains Dasar songs, Aruna and other Abhang singers take a few moments to introduce the essence. Then as they sing, the audience relates to the words, the feeling, the flow of the song -- energized by it all - beautiful changes, if you ask me.

veeyens3 · Post by **veeyens3** » 16 Jan 2011, 00:06

Talking about (inevitable) changes in Carnatic Music, brings to my mind , a novel (!) practice adapted by a leading, talented music teacher in Lo ngles area (this idea may be prevalent in other parts of world also) he brings in a prerecorded Cds with various talams and gathis and plays them in continuous mode and make his students sing to them tnstead of percussionist playing to vocalist. .During 60 s a bangalore firm which introduced an electronic struthi box, which produced sounds similar to the popular struthi boxes with bellows and produced the the various swaras by compressed air escaping through reeds, unlike later versions which produced notes similar to Thambore and another gadget a generator whiand ch produced beats corresponding to various thalams introduced it to the members of the expert committee of Music Academy There was mixed response to the new innovation by the committee but one member late Sri V.Sthuramiah, opposed it tooth an nail saying that a vocalist ,being human, was bound to stray from thalam occassionaly and human percussionist will adjust and which is not possible with a mechanical gadget. But looking at the contended appy mien of the Los Angeles music teacher, one would deduce that his experiment was successful and produced the expected results. I will not be surprised if some enterprising entreprenues produce practice C.D s to help students improve their layam standards and thus prove that change improves the aesthetics. The Bard of Avon did not say in vain that old order changeth, bringing in new

Radhika-Rajnarayan · Post by **Radhika-Rajnarayan** » 16 Jan 2011, 19:57

Veeyens:
The Bangalore firm you are referring to is Radel. The demonstration referred to was at the Music Academy in Dec 1979. Raj Narayan was given an opportunity to demonstrate the electronic sruti box and Talometer which can play all 35 taalams (7 talams, 5 jathis each) in various nadais too. He used the opportunity to work day and night for the preceding 2 months to develop an electronic tambura, which he demonstrated along with these 2 instruments. Dr Balamuralikrishna immediately congratulated him, ordered one for himself and was far-sighted and bold enough to use it on stage without the 'visual' of a traditional tambura, for which he was pilloried by some reviewer who imagined that he had no sruti accompaniment at all.
We faced all sorts of objections to the Talometer then as well as now, one of the most common ones being a blithe 'we are human, so we will alter the rhythm, sing or play fast or slow, the percussion or tala-keeper has to adjust'. I think this is inexcusable, and we should look at all ways to improve our sruti, laya and tala suddham.
Please see this video where a senior mridangam vidwan uses the Talometer to play a Tani in Khanda Jhampa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NXUh7SeM_Q

Or this link where a young student uses the Talometer to practise swaram:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjifokfDYBQ

This is just to show that it has taken 30 years for this change to happen.

There is another instrument, a digital music trainer called Swaravali that plays all varisais - sarali, Jantai, alankaram etc in 1 or 3 speeds, at any pitch or any starting tempo set by the teacher. This is an invaluable aid for teachers so they needn't shout themselves hoarse. It helps the student practise well at home since it plays the selected varisai (or even group of varisais) endlessly till stopped. You can even set it to any of the 72 melakartas, or set your own pattern to 'grill' the student.
See this link for details of the Swaravali:
http://www.radelindia.com/ProductDetail ... uctId=Ng==
Ideally this should help both student and teacher. But our experience has been again disappointing with teachers looking at this e-textbook of varisais suspiciously as if it will replace them! Maybe in another 30 years people will start using it. |(

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 16 Jan 2011, 20:58

One of the most common ones being a blithe 'we are human, so we will alter the rhythm, sing or play fast or slow, the percussion or tala-keeper has to adjust'. I think this is inexcusable, and we should look at all ways to improve our sruti, laya and tala suddham

Nicely said, Radhika Rajnarayan. I think we should ask srkris for a "like" button reserved for comments like this one (as in facebook)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jan 2011, 01:18

Mahavishnu, good idea. I have srkris if that is possible with our forum software. In addition, I am thinking of a thread for 'topics of distinction' where members can post links to good topics or posts they encounter that are buried in the thousands of past threads.

R-R, regarding the strict microsecond level adherence required by talameters and why the addressable market for on stage use is quite minuscule...while I do not have any doubts that there quite a few mridangists who measure up to that, the story about professional artists of the highest grade past and present is different. A few others and I did some sampling of various artists past and present with a high res stop watch. I think Mohan explored this too. The observations converge on the impression that it is indeed very rare for that level of accuracy to be maintained between the beginning of the song, through neravel and through kalpanaswaram.. Professional artists are mostly pretty good for the pre-composed section. And these small errors accumulate, the talameter is unforgiving of course and the accumulated error shows up glaringly after a while. That enlightened me on how much 'adjustments' the mridangists et all make on the concert stage, either consciously or otherwise.

Having said that, I am not sure if that level of accuracy is really needed or not. There are obvious cases of speeding up that are discernible which definitely can be corrected. But in many other instances, until I measured it, I could not tell that just by listening. So small variations do not seem to affect the overall aesthetics and sowkyam of the song.

Radhika-Rajnarayan · Post by **Radhika-Rajnarayan** » 17 Jan 2011, 09:04

I am not sure if that level of accuracy is really needed or not. There are obvious cases of speeding up that are discernible which definitely can be corrected. But in many other instances, until I measured it, I could not tell that just by listening. So small variations do not seem to affect the overall aesthetics and sowkyam of the song.

Vasanthakokilam, while it may not be obvious to a rasika, or even the performer, if there are small errors, I still maintain that we should always, always, look for ways and means to perfect our music as far as possible.
And once you get used to the Talometer - a matter of a couple of weeks, then it is very easy to maintain laya. And those 2 weeks are quite an eye opener about where one is 'izhuttu'-fying or 'odi' -fying!

These could be places as innocuous as between the 2nd and 3rd fingers, etc.
There is a teacher whose students use the Swaravali, and are now expert at the dhruva tala alankaram in 3 speeds. These are kids, not even teenagers.
OK, here's a question - Hindustani musicians happily use the Taalmala electronic tabla (again, a precise machine) and never complain about the fact that it is a machine and they cannot sing with bhavam. In fact they pack a considerable amount of bhavam withn the avartanam - even at drut lay (fast tempo). So how do you answer that?
It is just a matter of getting used to various teaching and learning tools. Western music practitioners routinely use the metronome, and never think twice about it.
Like I said before - another 30 years of this back and forth. Sigh.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 17 Jan 2011, 12:28

Radhika-Rajnarayan wrote: Sigh.

As is typical of new technology pushers, you seem to have a blind-eye towards that which will be lost in the march of technology. You will be more convincing if you give it some hard thought and concede those points rather than simply being exasperated.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 17 Jan 2011, 12:59

OK, here's a question - Hindustani musicians happily use the Taalmala electronic tabla (again, a precise machine) and never complain about the fact that it is a machine and they cannot sing with bhavam. In fact they pack a considerable amount of bhavam withn the avartanam - even at drut lay (fast tempo). So how do you answer that?

An electronic tabla should be more interesting than an ordinary tala-meter, in any case.

It's just the tone that differs, probably, but still ...

The role of a tabla greatly differs from that of a mrdangam in a concert, however.

Sureshvv, I recently attended a Mudikondan Ramesh concert. In a review-to-self of the concert, I wrote

the veena sounded very different from how I normally know it to sound. I could't help but wonder during the malayamArutam if all the amplification and sustenance is resulting in lessening the azhuttam of artists. Imho azhuttam does comprise of some austerity too.

Mudikondan Ramesh used an ordinary veena with a receiver placed right at the mITTu place.

In this particular case, though, the technology is going to (apparently) increase austerity.

However, I've seen people use the electronic device not to verify and improve their own sense of talam, but to keep talam -- just doing swara kalpana or taan randomly and beginning the line again when the talometer doles out the beat for the eduppu. I think a more effective use of technology would be to record without a tala-keeping device, and then listen, with or without the talameter. With the talameter would of course be a lot more helpful imho.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 17 Jan 2011, 13:14

I think both Radhika and vk are right !

I am personally inclined to agree with Radhika's thesis and would strongly recommend every student practice with the talometer (I am not sure what my gurus' opinions are, must ask them). I own one but since I don't practice at all, it's not of much relevance ! A dhridam in kalapramana is a must and only then does any amount of "kanakku" make real sense. This precision in kalapramanam distinguished the late Harishankar. When people do recordings of different tracks of different artists at different times and then merge them to make an album song, they often use "click tracks" which is like a metronome tap that you can listen to. Sometimes, Carnatic artists find it difficult to play to a click track. Harishankar, of course, took to it like fish to water !

That said, vk is also right. Music of great bhava has been and is being created by artists who did not practice with a talometer. A little self-mediated variation in kalarpamanam my give the music its "life" ! Also, arguably "something" of that life might disappear if the artist has practiced with a talometer. Maybe there's a value in stretching or compressing on a certain finger ! Afer all, we are not "orchestral" musicians where precise coordination of the ensemble is required. The mrdangam player is watching the vocalist intently and runs or slows down with him/her in real time. I find it thrilling when Trichy Sankaran gallops along to the finish with Semmangudi as the latter dares him to run faster and faster !

But bottom line...I think it is time to take advantage of the talometer!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Jan 2011, 14:07

On stage, the art and creativity of the mridangist is irreplaceable.

In the practise room, why not subject oneself to the hardest master possible? Practise with a machine does not make a person play like a machine: it just means that they are able to work at the highest possible level of discipline.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jan 2011, 14:39

Right, that is where I was going, definitely use a talameter for practice.

Also, on stage I am not talking about the obvious slow down or speed up that we perceive. I think that can be corrected with practice with a talameter for many professional artists.

I am only wondering about the accumulated minor variations. say, at 80 beats per minute, each beat is .75 seconds. Does it really matter if they take .751 seconds? If an artist is naturally that perfect that is fine, they can pull it off naturally but that may be a bit much for many artists. I see I am arguing against perfection which is a losing angle to take, but I am not convinced you really need that high an accuracy. In a rapid fire kalapanaswaram sequence if one is off a bit at that level over 20 avarthanas of adi, talameter will show that accumulated error glaringly over that time where as a mridangist will naturally adjust to that.

BTW, I do not know how accurate western classical musicians are. The accuracy probably depends on the accuracy of the conductor. I have heard that conductors can intentionally change that kalapramanam however slightly in the middle. But I have measured some Jazz greats. They definitely show variations at the level I am talking about.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 17 Jan 2011, 15:02

vasanthakokilam wrote:The accuracy probably depends on the accuracy of the conductor. I have heard that conductors can intentionally change that kalapramanam however slightly in the middle.

Indeed. Experts recommend a study of the same piece, say a Beethoven symphony, conducted by two of the greatest conductors of all time, Herbert von Karajan of the Berlin Philharmonic and Sir Georg Solti of the Chicago Symphony. Both were highly acclaimed but diametrically opposite in styles (and mildy hated each other for good measure!).

If you listen to Georg Solti, you can feel the metronomic precision of rhythm with which the movements are strung together. On the other hand, the same peice conducted by von Karajan won't have that consistency in kalapramanam within a score but will show much richer orchestral color and a more intricate tapestry of harmony. These are called horizontal (Solti) and vertical(Karajan) conducting styles, presumably because the vertical list of scores for various sections signfies the harmonic vitality while the horizontal signifies the flow of melody.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Jan 2011, 15:40

Carnatic music makes a claim that tempo does not alter within the performance of a single piece. Western music does not make this claim.

In fact, perhaps Carnatic music is a bit hung up about it. All this putting of talam and stuff. Our rhythm structures are, potentially, highly complex, but, in reality, most of the time, that complexity is absent, and any musician who cannot keep the beat, and count up to eight, without slapping their thighs or waving their hands, isn't really a musician. That's one reason you only see me in the audience. :$

The accuracy of technical time pieces is ever increasing. Does this mean that the musician must now work to the nano-second?

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 17 Jan 2011, 16:05

This discussion is tempting me to go in for a tala meter. But will it not become the equivalent of a sleeping pill for someone used to it? Take it away and you are lost?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Jan 2011, 17:46

The answer to that is simple: use it sometimes. Practise with it and without it, to make sure you can do both!

I'm not a musician (nor even a music student) but my view is that it is not a crutch that one becomes dependent on, but a very hard task master issuing a challenge. Whatever exercise I could play, I found a thousand times harder to play to the external discipline of a metronome of any kind. Part of the exercise, for instance, is arbitrarily setting the tempo, and then practising to that tempo, not the slightly slower or quicker one that one might feel more comfortable with.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jan 2011, 22:35

Nick H wrote:Carnatic music makes a claim that tempo does not alter within the performance of a single piece

Yes. And the point under discussion is whether miniscule variations are OK or not.

And, there is a related notion about tempo change at a much higher granularity.

We often hear the claim of 'constancy of tempo' by quoting "sruthi mAthA laya pithA". ( sruthi is the mother and layam is the father ). I think a straightforward interpretation of this is that it just lays emphasis on the two pillars of our music, melody and rhythm and the importance of both of them. It does not talk about constancy of anything. At best, we can extend the meaning to the interpretation: 'give layam respect, do not willy nilly change the beat duration, maintain a steady beat'. Fine. But people take it to mean 'extremely strict constancy of tempo throughout the song'.

But let us go with the assumption that it does refer to that. There is a misconception at a higher level.

The real problem with constancy of tempo is 'what is CM's definition of tempo?'. People instinctively define it as the beat duration. I think it is a mistaken notion.

But if you characterize tempo as the 'number of inner beats per minute', it makes perfect sense. So using chathusra nadai as reference , we can say the tempo of the song is 320 chathusra notes / minute. It does not have to be chathusra notes but it makes practical sense. ( It is conceptually the same as the BPM specification in western notation, it usually states it as so many quarter notes per minute ).

This is the reference and it defines the tempo for the song. You can use it to arrive at beat durations for various inner beat counts ( trisra, chathusra, kanda etc. ) and once beat duration is made, you can then sub divide the beat durations for various speeds and divisions of 3,5,7 etc. You can even change the beat duration in the middle of a song ( as it happens with MLV's Chandra Chuda ) since constancy of tempo as defined above is not violated. The speed, of course, can be changed during the execution of the song as it happens commonly. Both variations are legal, as long as the changes are made in reference to the tempo as defined above (i.e. 320 chathusra notes/minute.)

But I see people, professionals and literature included, interpret it to mean that you can not change the thala beat duration during a song.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Jan 2011, 22:41

I see people, professionals and literature include, interpret it to mean that you can not change the thala beat duration during a song

but... but... I think that is what most of us define it as!

two pillars of our music, melody and rhythm

The two pillars of all music

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jan 2011, 22:57

but... but... I think that is what most of us define it as!

I know!! But I do not think it is correct. See if my write up above makes sense for an alternate definition of tempo and its constancy. I think it is stronger at a theoretical level which allows for certain variations that are found in practice, as in the chandra chuda type examples and the geometric ( 2,4,8 type ) increase/decrease in beat duration found in RTPs. Hope sr_iyer backs me on this or provide corrections if I am wrong.

veeyens3 · Post by **veeyens3** » 18 Jan 2011, 00:42

Many years back I saw a cartoon in a newspaper , showing two youngsters, entering a modern art section of a museum and on seeing , what appeared to be a mangle of twisted rods, kept on a special pedestal, one of them says to the other “come on, let us run otherwisethey may think we have done it. Speaking about Art and at the same time creating parameters for it is a typical oxymoron. Yet under practical considerations, specifying some artificial boundaries appear to be necessary. Thus creation of mechanical/electrical gadgets to help students improve their control over laya is O.K so far maintenance of tala but does not become the main objective. It has been rightly said earlier in this chain that”Having said that, I am not sure if that level of accuracy is really needed or not. There are obvious cases of speeding up that are discernible which definitely can be corrected. But in many other instances, until I measured it, I could not tell that just by listening. So small variations do not seem to affect the overall aesthetics and sowkyam of the song” The one and only yardstick is the overall satisfaction of having listened to a good concert.which created the same tranquility and ambient of a Japanese Tea Ceremony where you let go of the past , allow future to take care of itself and enjoy every moment of the presen,.thanking God for endowing us with the faculty to enjoy Carnatic Music. May Sri Rama bless you all.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Jan 2011, 05:25

As suggested by mahavishnu, the topic has been split. http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15476 The scientific discussions can continue at this new thread in the Technical Section.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 20 Jan 2011, 12:05

After carefully reading the posts and replies, I am tempted to post extract of my article ' Karnatic Music, Tradition and Enlightenment', which deals with this subject.

" Eternity in Tradition, beliefs shaken?

In Literature and in discussions on IM-both HM and CM, there is strong current of insecurity, fear, pain, anguish and anxiety, about the future. The thought stream goes like - Previous times are Golden period-present is full of chaos and decadence-future is uncertain and doomsday, certain! But, are they factual? Vehemently, I say, NO. Nature's
order is-shristi (creation/creativity)-sthithi (managing efficiently the present)-pralaya (end or cessation of all that is created and being maintained. Good-Badly-Ugly are features of any times, immemorial. Our sense of insecurity, fears for changes, threat of our comfort zone/pleasure memories, with inherent weakness for affirmative actions, make us bemoan the era/legacy passed away, as escapist wonderful tool.
Fact is that the creative inputs of excellence, in any form, by the great Vaggeyakaras and maestros, becomes tradition and is cherished for ever, with few exceptions. Changes are welcomed and the part becomes the whole. It is also fact that Great Maestros, inspire and act as role models. Vidwans/Vidushis/Maestros, imbibing the greatness of their works, adding their own creative inputs, continue the tradition and become themselves Great Maestros. Undeniable fact is that enrichment and destruction happen, continuously and in perpetuity. The enriched knowledge, becoming the tradition, discards the destructive knowledge. Such immortal music has stood the test of times. Like fresh springs, continue to satisfy the thirsty. Thus it gains immortality

Doyen of Karnatic Music, late DR.Sandhyavandanam Srinivasa Rao, in one of his Lec-Demos, stated that " can we say for sure and confidently that from Shankara/Sarawathi - Narada-Nandi-Matanaga- Music trinity/Kshetragana/others-Tiger/Ariyakkudi/Maharajapuram/Musiri/Alatthur Bros/Madurai Mani Iyer/Semmengudi/GNB/MDR and many others-both the past and the present Great Maestros/Maestros/Vidwans & Vidushis, the IM has been in decadence ? No. There were, there are and there will be, birth of Geniuses/Great Maestros-with immense contributions enriching the Classical Excellence in Tradition and death for the works/contributions of dubious values-leaving only their stain/stench, at times. If the artist, uncompromisingly, keeps his music, simply classical, he/she serves the cause. Rasikas, becoming knowledgeable on Classical values and 'ruchi' and 'suchi' aspects in Indian Music, completely enjoying , constantly demanding , offering unstinting support and resources, serve the cause".
Factually, with more than average intelligence, good education, making the better use of technological advancements, power of wealth creation, the reach going beyond geographical limitations, the present generation of artists and rasikas have immense power and demonstrated potential to enrich the Classical Excellence in tradition of Indian Music, with clarity on Goals and Values of our rich Indian Music heritage.

As Vedanta urges, ARISE and AWAKE, rest will be done!

Also, disgustingly, declarations that a particular artist is ’one and one only’, ‘not existed earlier and not going to be born in future’. The evolution of Classical Music, growth and development, in perpetual continuity, stands testimony to the fact, that there will be no dearth of Great Maestros. Constant comparisons, relation, fortified thought of unsurpassed (which leads to the statements -'One and one only' 'Not born before and not going to be borne, herein after-Na Bhooto, Na Bhavishyati), are the results of weakness of the mind-sense of insecurity or fear for the change (loss of memorable experiences,immensely satisfactory).
The attempts for new experience out of experiments are always done, at all times. Statements out of dismay, anxiety and disgust about the new trend are always made, deprecatingly. Quality improvements are acknowledged, grudgingly. Quality deterioration always counted and highlighted. I have many times heard the Great Maestros expressing happiness, at times wonderment, about the knowledge and skills of the younger vidwans/vidushis/maestros and declaring that rich legacy of music is assured of continuity and longevity. With out hype or nostalgia (for its own sake), if we examine and analyze, truly, Great Geniuses and Great Maestros continue to come, ensuring enrichment. New experience/knowledge, arising out of creative thinking, can be with aim of - attempt at the critical analysis and negation of the existing and giving new thought, in it's place, attempt at using the existing, modify, refine, renew with added new thought, attempt at bringing new thought, not in existence. There is no necessity or compulsion for the destruction of the existing for creating the new thought. The new experience/knowledge, with fresh and creative thought, adds and delivers higher value over the existing or independent of the existing, it is enrichment. Transformation is, only with shift in values or its emphasis, with the new thought. over the existing. The advancements in instinct and intuition faculties of intelligent beings and the evolution history is full of proof of constant creative process and creation and the existence of created things. One can definitely accept new, without any need for the rejection of the old. One can continue to enjoy the existing, while accepting and enjoying the new. The need for the discard of the old comes only with total dissatisfaction of the old and compelling need for the new. If the new delivers, total satisfaction with compulsion for the discard of the old and for the acceptance of the new, the old is discarded. I have experienced, knowledge, which was considered impossible or exclusive preserve of few in the older generation, becoming with relative ease, knowledge of the many.
I am confident that with focus on 'ruchi' ,'suchi', 'hitam' and 'mitam' by the present, immensely talented and successful practitioners and performers, we will have problem of plenty.
It is now the times for performance of duties of rasika- by rasika, becoming more knowledgeable, attending, appreciating, supporting the truly meritorious, to ensure enrichment.

I recall Gita sloka" Akasas patitam toyam, yatha gatchati sagaram, sarva deva namaskaraha, Kesavam pratigachati' and to be interpreted in the context of Karnatic music as " All individual creative input droplets, by their natural flow and strength, join the ocean of music, whatever genre of music you worship/love, leads to ultimate realization of Karnatic music".
With vast majority of us, unwilling to think independently and unconditionally, inquire, to seek, determine, being decisive and own it, we take the escapist route or easy route of accepting the popular choice. We support the choice with full strength, to make the choice unique, one's own and even glorify to overcome the guilt of our inaction or limitations. Only few dare to be different. They guarantee and ensure the continuity of real and proven excellence.".

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 Jan 2011, 13:52

munirao2001 wrote:Good-Badly-Ugly are features of any times, immemorial

...

There were, there are and there will be, birth of Geniuses/Great Maestros-with immense contributions enriching the Classical Excellence in Tradition and death for the works/contributions of dubious values-leaving only their stain/stench, at times.

I can't deny either that real genius is rare, at any time, in any field, or that there do seem to be times when it seems to cluster in one particular field. However, it seem just common sense to me that, in general, the brilliant, the indifferent and the poor must always be present in life. Was, is and always will be! And yet, I have, when saying this, been met with a flat denial!

Let reverence for past genius continue, but let it be accompanied with due regard for present genius, and with optimism for the future.

How depressing it must be for the young, growing artists of today, to be told that they can never match up to genius of the past. If they hear it often enough, it will become an indoctrination, and it will prove itself. Humility and respect are undeniable virtues, but let the young artists of today believe that, if not by them as individuals, great things can and will be achieved in the future.

Artists and audience must shake off negativity --- before it becomes, in itself, a part of "tradition". Maybe it has already.

Of course, we mustn't stop decrying the bad and the ugly

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 20 Jan 2011, 21:28

comparison is always done with intent to bring improvement on individual/universal; IMHO it is dangerous and demotivator.

veeyens3 · Post by **veeyens3** » 25 Jan 2011, 00:47

Comparison should always be on identical conditions. It is obviously unfair to compare w Don Bradman, who had to face six bouncers per over, contend with an array of fielders on the leg side and with being protective gear retricted to a pair of batting loves, a pair of leg guards, and an abdominal guard to protect private parts.Even the head gear, by convention, being the solar hat for the first two sssions and respective national county caps for post tea sessions.On the other hand, look at the Tendulkar..with present players looking like american foot ballers and having the luxury of not having to face more than two bouncers per over and with only one man behind square leg.As I have said earlier, let us forget the past, we can do nothing about it, leave the future to look after itself and instead, savour the present fully, thanking God for giving us the faculty to do so. May Sri Rama bless you all

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 26 Jan 2011, 11:08

veeyens3
You advice "let us forget the past, we can do nothing about it, leave the future to look after itself". You will appreciate that the conditioned mind with full of knowledge and memory of the past, is very much part of the present. One has to take efforts to uncondition the mind, to be truly in the present. Present automatically becomes the part of the future.
The heritage, its benefits and enjoyment should not be erased or left out, for obvious reasons. We have to confront the myth, avoid assiduously the bias and prejudice and be afresh and free to savor the present. Idolatry is to be eschewed. Acquire true knowledge of the contents and original contributions of immense merits. Cultivate sense of security, leaving aside the insecurity of loss of memory of great pleasurable moments and the need for its perpetuity.

veeyens3 · Post by **veeyens3** » 26 Jan 2011, 21:01

I agree that future is built on the experience of the past. But what I want to emphasise is that we should use past as a reference and no more We should not allow past to be our master May Sri Rama bless you