Atlanta - Bringing Carnatic Music back into life ...

Muthu Kumaran · Post by **Muthu Kumaran** » 09 Mar 2011, 01:50

I have been reading an earlier post “Perspective on amateurs accompanying the professionals” (http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14903) and specifically comments by fellow member ReethiGowla48. Having lived in Atlanta for several years, I share the agony and frustration voiced by this person and decided to start a new discussion thread outside of the original post. I welcome comments and response from CM lovers in Atlanta on this topic.

It is my honest opinion that the Atlanta Carnatic music association is in a pathetic state of vegetation for over 10 years. For those of you wondering what this means, Vegetation is a state of inert existence where the essential functions of the body are working normally, but the brain is dead for all practical purposes and lost the ability to respond to external stimulation. This organization called CAMAGA has been founded about 15 years ago and is stuck in the mud ever since. Consider the following facts …

1. The same person serves as the president (and de-facto decision maker) for all of its history to date – Given that Atlanta’s South Indian community is full of business leaders and executive managers, is it purely accidental that this organization didn’t attract any other leaders from the community? Why are we stuck with one-man-ship? Don’t we believe in leadership succession planning?

2.CAMAGA Organizes Aradhana every year in February; the format of the event hasn’t changed a bit in 15 years and they honor the same 4 composers year after year. There are numerous great post-trinity and pre-trinity composers such as Papanasam Sivan and Mysore Vasudavacar and why don’t they change the theme each year to honor more composers? Wouldn’t that motivate people to learn new krithis of these (other) great composers? Those who suggested these ideas in the past have been met with a shock treatment so that they give up; shut their mouth and move on to other priorities in life. What a great way of killing enthusiasm and innovation and participation!! ;(

3.For 15 years, the same person directs and leads group singing at the aradhana. When there are so many talented people in town, why are we not taking turns? Why are these *star performers* (a.k.a. control freaks) not encouraging others to take a shot at leadership roles?

4.The organization is supposed to be consisting of a board of advisers (Check out the web site). Not even once in my 10 years of membership, had I seen any form of communication regarding minutes of board member meetings. Why? Year after year, Decisions are taken by a single person or a core group of (2-3) people behind closed doors. How can you collect money from the public for running a public organization and run it as if it is your private backyard-party? ]

5.Not even once during my 10 years of membership, I have seen membership survey or anything of that nature. This organization never showed interest in learning what members think, and serving the community better by collecting their input. In one of the earlier posts, fellow member ReethiGowla48 has rightly put this as ‘AOTOCRATIC FRAMEWORK’.

6.What are the criteria for inviting artists for concerts (Including self-nominations for accompanists)? Why don’t you publish the criteria on the web site or through formal communication be equitable to membership?

I can go on and on here, but would like to take a deep breath and look forward to hearing from fellow Carnatic music lovers in town.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 09 Mar 2011, 01:54

Wild allegation? Muthu Kumaran - you put up with it for ten + years, why?

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 09 Mar 2011, 04:19

I don't really get into posts like this.

Sri Muthu kumaran. With all due respect, this seems like the internal matter of a registered cultural organization. I would prefer it if you and the people concerned called a general body meeting and sorted it out. Change your by-laws, have a revolution, follow the Egyptians, overthrow the president, or better yet start a confederate sabha.

This matter is of little interest to the worldwide rasika community. This is not the appropriate place to air the dirty linen of an organization.

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 09 Mar 2011, 09:18

I am completely with mahavishnu on this. Any organization needs members who proactively come forward asking:

-- I am a member of this orgn. What are my rights and responsibilities? When is the General body meeting? Where are the minutes?
-- Can I help organize a few concerts? How do I submit artist recommendations and how do follow the process of selection?
-- Can I help host artists?

Have you found out from the office bearers why there is not a more robust system of GBMs, elections, rotation in office bearers, etc? Have you found out whether the membership is regular in paying subscriptions, and takes interest when meetings are called?

appu · Post by **appu** » 09 Mar 2011, 10:57

Muthu Kumaran,

If the organization is a 501 C(3) they are bound by some rules and regulations as mandated by the Federal and State government. You as a member of the organization have some legal rights. Learn more about charitable organizations and begin asking questions. I agree with mahavishnu on airing dirty linen on a public forum.

Regards

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 10 Mar 2011, 03:47

mahavishnu wrote:I don't really get into posts like this.

Then why did you "really get into" this thread ?

mahavishnu wrote:Sri Muthu kumaran. With all due respect, this seems like the internal matter of a registered cultural organization. I would prefer it if you and the people concerned called a general body meeting and sorted it out. Change your by-laws, have a revolution, follow the Egyptians, overthrow the president, or better yet start a confederate sabha.

This matter is of little interest to the worldwide rasika community. This is not te appropriate place to air the dirty linen of an organization.

Thanks for your moral policing. But we will continue writing whatever we like and and think is relevant to carnatic music. Sorry about that !! You are welcome not to read them (I know this is the trademark response of this forum), or still to read them, if you are curious within you about what is happening in Atlanta or wherever. I was wondering what if facebook and twitter had told this to the Egyptians--come on, it is the problem between you and your dictators which you guys need to sort it out; why use our calm, serene facebook to talk about such 'dirty' matters of no interest to us and the global political community !
Unfortunately, you prove none so different than those dictators...
Muthu Kumaran has answered you more formally in post# 11

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 10 Mar 2011, 03:51

VK RAMAN wrote:Wild allegation? Muthu Kumaran - you put up with it for ten + years, why?

You often pose some weird questions. I can't help but recall you making some odd comment and disappearing in the forum "Perspective on amateurs accompanying the professionals".
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... 3&start=50
See posts #63 and #64 (my answer to you).
Anyways, If you can answer why Egyptians and other middle eastern country people put up with their dictators for past several decades, the same answer will apply here too.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 10 Mar 2011, 03:58

why Egyptians and other middle eastern country people put up with their dictators for past several decades.....and you are comparing that to Atlanta! hmm

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 10 Mar 2011, 04:17

VK RAMAN wrote:why Egyptians and other middle eastern country people put up with their dictators for past several decades.....and you are comparing that to Atlanta! hmm

Of course, I was.
The phenomenons are the same; just the scales are different. In Egypt, hunger and unemployment were the issues; in Atlanta, hunger for good music and organization is the issue !

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 10 Mar 2011, 04:23

Always_Evolving wrote:I am completely with mahavishnu on this. Any organization needs members who proactively come forward asking:

-- I am a member of this orgn. What are my rights and responsibilities? When is the General body meeting? Where are the minutes?
-- Can I help organize a few concerts? How do I submit artist recommendations and how do follow the process of selection?
-- Can I help host artists?

Have you found out from the office bearers why there is not a more robust system of GBMs, elections, rotation in office bearers, etc? Have you found out whether the membership is regular in paying subscriptions, and takes interest when meetings are called?

This is yet another trademark response akin to the middle eastern dictators. When things don't go well and the people criticize and make demands out of the governing bodies, the government criticize the people for not exercising their democratic rights and powers appropriately.
Here again I can't help recalling Always_Evolving's persistent attempts to be defensive about his/her organization in Atlanta and subsequent disappearance, in the thread "Perspective on amateurs accompanying the professionals".
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... 3&start=50
See posts #65, 70, 74,

Muthu Kumaran · Post by **Muthu Kumaran** » 10 Mar 2011, 04:31

This matter is of little interest to the worldwide rasika community. This is not the appropriate place to air the dirty linen of an organization

I totally understand that this topic is of little interest to a large number of Rasikas browsing this forum. However, given that many of the Atlantans are also here, I thought this is the most effective way of reaching them and start a fruitful discussion of the problems we are facing currently. At the least, I have all the confidence that others who come across this thread will benefit from what we discuss here and be able to apply these ideas in their particular cities / situations as well.

Can you suggest any other forums outside of Rasikas.org that offer the same level or reach and at the same time provide the much needed anonymity?

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 10 Mar 2011, 04:35

Muthu Kumaran,
Thank you very much for raising your voice here. All your points are completely true and known to almost every music lover in Atlanta. Now we should proceed forward with making these criticisms directly to the organization and make them answerable for all these. We already have lot of written material and discussion over here.
Beyond all that we should realize that changing a rotten organizational set up is quite hard and might be simply a waste of time dealing with the bureaucrats and their rules. The best way will be to forget about them, bypass them and set up something for ourselves; by us, for us, to bring CM back to life in Atlanta.
Let's all touch base to discuss further on that.

Please see posts #98 and 100 in
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... 3&start=75

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 10 Mar 2011, 09:33

reethigowla48 wrote: Thanks for your moral policing. But we will continue writing whatever we like and and think is relevant to carnatic music. Sorry about that !! You are welcome not to read them (I know this is the trademark response of this forum)

Or we can protest if we find the content offensive and request you to not post anymore on the topic or ask to mods to remove such content.

I was wondering what if facebook and twitter had told this to the Egyptians...

Invalid analogy. Unless your Atlanta sabha is getting 30 billion dollars from Cleveland or something

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 10 Mar 2011, 09:40

Muthu Kumaran wrote:
Can you suggest any other forums outside of Rasikas.org that offer the same level or reach and at the same time provide the much needed anonymity?

Why hide behind the anonymity? You should really start talking constructively to other rasikas at the events you attend and see if there is an interest in making the current organization more open and participatory or starting a new one. The first step is to reveal who you are.

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 10 Mar 2011, 09:51

reethigowla48 wrote:
This is yet another trademark response akin to the middle eastern dictators. When things don't go well and the people criticize and make demands out of the governing bodies, the government criticize the people for not exercising their democratic rights and powers appropriately.

Firstly I am another rasika and not a member of your "government"! But that's the way things work. No membership-driven group can be one-way traffic. So my questions stand. Judging by your response I suspect you haven't been participating properly.

Here again I can't help recalling Always_Evolving's persistent attempts to be defensive about his/her organization in Atlanta and subsequent disappearance, in the thread "Perspective on amateurs accompanying the professionals".
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... 3&start=50
See posts #65, 70, 74,

Huh?? I haven't lived in Atlanta for ten years, much less own an organization there! On the other hand assuming you are a dues-paying member it is your organization

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 10 Mar 2011, 18:57

This is a general comment, not particularly in reference to the situation in Atlanta (of which I have no first hand knowledge).

Most of us have a busy and fulfilling professional life, where we follow the rules and do what is expected to advance in our profession. We have bosses to answer to, or customers to satisfy, a payroll to meet or whatever.

A few of us are also passionately involved with the arts, dissatisfied with the way things are, and want to do things the "right" way according to our own inner conviction. If we are sufficiently rich or connected, we could invite the artists we want to our own house for private concerts. The less fortunate try to collect a few like minded individuals and set up an organization to do the same thing. The last thing we want here is another boss telling us what to do. The very purpose of going through the pains of setting up an organization is to do the "right thing" free of external constraints.

Personally, I was very much involved in our local Telugu association, served as secretary and vice president. However, I was not happy with how many (few) concerts we were able to organize through the association, and so started my own sabha with some core principles (for instance, in our sabha, children 18 and under are admitted free to all concerts; local talent esp. accompanists are encouraged; a mix of star and upcoming artists are invited).

What I am getting to is the following. The difference between Egypt and USA is that if you don't like how something is done, you are welcome to do it your own way. You don't need to overthrow the other organization. If it is true that they are not doing something - inviting the right artists, or the right accompanists or whatever - and this is something worth doing, then the "market" (I know this is not an appropriate word in this context, but bear with me) will decide a winner, or allow both associations to comfortably get along side by side; Unless you actually have concerts on the same day, this is clearly beneficial to most poeple as they will have many more concerts to enjoy. You could be showcasing a different kind of artist or accompanist, and people who like that kind of thing will come to your programs. If no one comes to your programs, then you will know that no one shares your tastes; and similarly, if your programs run to full houses, the other association will begin to copy you.

We are fortunate to live in a time when this is actually quite easy. Many artists come to the US on organized tours, and arranging concerts does not need much in the way of connections or contacts. I can certainly help (offline) by giving you the contact information of some of the tour organizers.

So my suggestion is, rather than waste your passion and energy battling an entrenched organization, show them how it should be done correctly by starting another Sabha!

- Sreenadh

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 10 Mar 2011, 23:36

Sreenadh
Which sabha are you running and where are you based in US? I am particularly impressed with your decision to allow below 18 for free, that way the whole family will come to the concerts.

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 11 Mar 2011, 00:35

Thanks, Rajesh. It is Shruti Laya, in New York, shrutilaya.org, now in its fourth year of life. We're delighted that the "children free" policy sometimes even encourages music teachers to bring their students to concerts (if parents are too busy to). We do other whacky things too, like using our mailing list to announce all CM programs in the area, not just our own, and supporting local music and dance schools in arranging their programs by lending our audio equipment etc., Our concert list for 2011 is at http://shrutilaya.org/2011-artists.htm

Okay, I promise I won't plug Shruti Laya any more, thanks for reading ..

- Sreenadh

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Mar 2011, 00:42

Sreenadh, you are doing great work. A model to follow for others.

How would you characterize the audience attendance and enthusiasm for local talent vs professional performers from India?
In the former case, is it still the friends and family type situation or you are seeing folks outside of that group attending?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 11 Mar 2011, 01:22

"rather than waste your passion and energy battling an entrenched organization, show them how it should be done correctly by starting another Sabha" this is a challenging proposition. I like it.

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 11 Mar 2011, 06:28

vasanthakokilam wrote:Sreenadh, you are doing great work. A model to follow for others.

How would you characterize the audience attendance and enthusiasm for local talent vs professional performers from India?
In the former case, is it still the friends and family type situation or you are seeing folks outside of that group attending?

We typically have local accompanists with performers from India, or include all-local groups as parts of other events like Thyagaraja Aradhana and other Composer's Days. But that is the challenge, to get an audience. Quite often, we have only a few people in the audience ..

- Sreenadh

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 11 Mar 2011, 06:32

Sreenadh - seems like in the coming months you have almost weekly concerts by visiting artistes? How does Shrutilaya (and organisations with similar schedules) cope with hosting so many concerts back to back when this usually involves picking up or dropping artistes from/to airports, hosting artistes, setting up for concerts, etc.

With so many regular concerts, I can understand that patronage will be an issue. This will also put a financial strain on the organisation and organisers.

As a an organiser of concerts in Sydney, I understand it is a big commitment for the organisers but we do it only a few times a year. Would like to hear how you cope with so many concerts happenning at regular intervals.

fun_on_the_move · Post by **fun_on_the_move** » 11 Mar 2011, 21:58

Muthu Kumaran,

Awesome post! I'm so glad that there are people echoing similar thoughts.

For 15 years, the same person directs and leads group singing at the aradhana. When there are so many talented people in town, why are we not taking turns? Why are these *star performers* (a.k.a. control freaks) not encouraging others to take a shot at leadership roles?

Cannot agree more. Thanks to the way the kritis are rendered in such a slow pace, killing the beauty, I even lost interest in singing Pancharatna Kritis!!!

Last year's concerts that took place atleast had accompanists' information. Look at this year's webpage. It is already March 11th and we do not know who would accompany the main artist for the concert on April 2nd.

http://www.ipnatlanta.net/camaga/

I enjoy even the violin and mridangam equally in a concert and looks like the organization expects us to question them even about who the artists are in a concert. Why do they wish to receive so many emails from each member asking who the accompanist is, I do not see any point in them putting up the concert information too. As Always_Evolving said, should we even ask who the accompanists are for a concert that is supposed to be there by default. A concert in itself is a teamwork. If the accompanists have not been decided, a simple TBD would make me understand.

For the other non-Atlanta rasikas/residents residing in USA, please bear in mind you could live in Atlanta sometime in future and I could move out of Atlanta very soon as we are a set of highly volatile population in this country who do not stay in one city. In that way, I think it's a global carnatic music problem and not just pertaining to Atlanta. This discussion is just an initiation into the scheme of things going on around and as every good work needs an initial spark, I would take this and the other thread "Perspective on amateurs accompanying the professionals"
as those sparks

Muthu Kumaran, reetigowla48,

I agree that we need to touch base offline, along with the discussion going on around here. This discussion is a good start for people like me to stumble upon by chance and know that there are people out there who are undergoing similar experiences related to this issue.

doyoucare · Post by **doyoucare** » 11 Mar 2011, 22:47

Hi fun_on_the_move / MuthuK / reetigowla48 - In case you guys decide to touch base offline, please count me in. I am a huge fan of soliloquys!

Muthu Kumaran · Post by **Muthu Kumaran** » 12 Mar 2011, 00:11

I'd like to clarify ... The comments we made on this forum are not in any shape or form directed to the individuals running the association. Atlanta's CM community is fairly small and many of us know one another through Carnatic music as well as other avenues such as Hindu Temple and Tamil Sangam. We have a great respect for the hard work these leaders put in running the show and unquestionably their dedication and sacrifice (Imagine the long hours they spend away from their families to take care of business !!) keep the CM community going.

Our angst and despair stem from the lack of openness and inability to change and evolve over time. If the same people are running the show for 15 years, running it the exact same way year after year, it gets very boring and unexciting. We are seeing more and more Gen-X and Gen-Y members joinig in the hope of getting some excitement and action and their needs are not served using ideology that worked 30 ago. Lame arguments such as "That is how it's done in Tiruvayyaru and we follow the exact same format here" are sure to turn people away. My biggest concern is, if we do not attract younger people in supporting, patronizing and directing CM activities, what is going to happen after the current baby-boomer leaders leave the scene? Younger members will not be put up with the dull and docile 'Do it the same way forever" dogma and they will look elsewhere to quench their thirst.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 12 Mar 2011, 01:20

Muthu Kumaran: well said in the second para. I sure believe the powers that be in Atlanta will read this and come to terms with their own weakness and work with well meaning individuals like you.

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 12 Mar 2011, 03:05

Muthukumaran

Worded that way as in the last post, makes me comfortable to reply. The slightly stong tone prior to this post kept me restrained.

As you rightly said, we have to acknowledge that organizers in this case or in any other situation are not an enviable lot. They put in lot of efforts and time, both during, before and after the concert, as opposed to ordinary concert-goer like me who can walk in when the concert starts, enjoy the concert and walk-out. However, I am not brushing away the fact that a lot more can be done and should be done. Instead of fractions and taking a belligerent stand it is in everyone's interest to amicably find a solution. The membership in Camaga hovers between 100 - 120 in a year. With such a small number, it is imperative that there is an inclusive policy to take in every member's opinion and not lose it further. Hopefully improvements bring in more people into the fold. I do see huge variance in attendance depending on artist. So I am sure there are more people who can be made members. I agree that a rotation policy in the managment keeps the organization healthy and injects new ideas into the system.

From the id, you know my name is Ramaswamy. I am more than ready to discuss what and how things can be improved.

Sreenadh

I really admire your enterprising nature to start and successfully run a sabha of your own for the past few years. Since you are doing it for a few years, I am sure it is viable. But I really do not see how more than one group in Atlanta can survive economically and attendance-wise, given the statistics above. The most attendance is for Thyagaraja Aradhana held in the month of Feb. Most of the parents want to see their wards on stage. Next is a concert by "known" name like Unnikrishnan or Sudha Raghunathan. But other than that, we are lucky to have more than 30 people in the auditorium for most of the other concerts. With that kind of number, it is quite an effort to sustain one organization leave alone more than one.

manavan · Post by **manavan** » 12 Mar 2011, 13:18

But that is the challenge, to get an audience. Quite often, we have only a few people in the audience ..

I think that organizations (not just carnatic music, but dance, sangams etc) operate thinking that their audience is the suburbanite with 2.5 kids, and ignore the other kinds of people (college students, students of music/dance, teh general music audience which goes to World Music Institute concerts etc) who would attend events if they knew about them and the event was accessible. Personally I don't go to Sruthilaya concerts because they are in the middle of nowhere.

There were quite a few people at the Carnatica Brothers concert a couple of years ago, which was conveniently located (Flatiron district), and the Carnatica Bros are not "headliners" nor was the concert all that well-advertised.

Muthu Kumaran · Post by **Muthu Kumaran** » 12 Mar 2011, 17:23

Ramaswamy,

Thanks for your words of wisdom. I am in concurrence with your observation that a 100-member community cannot possibly support multiple organizations and let's not consider that option for now. I am still hopeful that we can spice things up a little bit, make it more exciting to members and make them want to come back and participate. Quite frankly, the general ambience at CAMAGA events is quite intimidating. I am not suggesting that concerts are a place to socialize, but we can't expect people to show up, take a seat, listen and just leave at the end of it. General communications are also bland and straight to the point. When so few people are involved at the core group, obviously they get stressed out and end up doing the bare minimum to get through the year. Here are some ideas we can consider to get some momentum. I understand that not all these ideas may be feasible in the short run, but we ought to start somewhere.

Create a member-only discussion group (Google groups and Yahoo groups are great for this) that aids in members in getting ideas out to each other. In the past, people have communicated directly with the president with little success. One of the very talented members (Many of you Atlantans may know this person as well) got frustrated with this uni-directional communication and gave up on attending the Great composers day all together. We need to move from communicating-with-the-president mode to communicating-with-the-group , I think.

Modify the constitution and by-laws to prevent from the same person from serving as president for more than two terms (4 years) in a row. This will force the community to produce new leaders on a regular basis and brings in fresh energy and innovation.

Expand the current structure of office bearers - Create special purpose roles such as VP - Professional Concerts , VP - Local talent promotion and VP-Education etc. This will ease burden on the president and lets him or her focus on providing overall direction to the executive body rather than in organizing individual events.

Aradhana is a great opportunity for students to showcase their talent. Given the large number of kids learning CM, one event a year is largely inadequate. Consider adding a second event in the fall. Change themes every time so that more composers, compositions and languages are covered. Let's honor great souls such as Papanasm Sivan, Patnam Subrahmania Iyer and GNB. Let's motivate students to learn krithis of these great Post & Pre-Trinity composers as well. Some ideas for themes for these events are: 1) Pre-Trinity Composers 2) Post-Trinity Composers; 3) Devi krithis (Great opportunity during Navaratri time); 4) Living Legends (Compositions of living composers); 4) Deekshitar day 5) Bhakti saints day 6) Tamil Compositions day etc.

Local talent day - Provide amateur artists an opportunity to perform 30-minute concerts. During this window, they'll be able to sing/play elaborate raga alapana, swara kalpana, and neraval etc. Remember, professional-level skill can only be developed through performing (in addition to a rigorous practice, of course) and let's help these amateur and passionate artists get to the next level. A typical half-day program can accommodate about 8 such concerts.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 13 Mar 2011, 08:37

Muthu Kumaran
Very well written. Cannot agree with you more.
I would like to add one more point.

Modify the constitution and by-laws to prevent the same person from being (self) nominated as the accompanying artist for the visiting professional artists. There should be a more merit-based, objective criterion on deciding the accompanists, which is to be compulsorily kept transparent.

For people who have not followed the detailed discussions in the thread "Perspective on amateurs accompanying the professionals", please take a loot at this link
http://www.ipnatlanta.net/camaga/
Click on "Past Concerts" and see for yourselves that a single person has accompanied as the mridangist for all the concerts in Atlanta,without a professional mridangist from India, since 1999 (as per the information in the above webpage). Isn't this a Guinness book record? (FYI: Atlanta has 3 or 4 other professional level mridangists, AFAIK)

Today I received an email with the list of concerts for this year, which starts with the same person accompanying the first concert of this year, which for me appears to be a clear proclamation from the organization that this stupid ritual is not going to change. Sorry, I am not apolitical enough to suppress myself being vocal about what I am thinking now, that, I find this so similar to Gaddafi vehemently holding onto power in Libya

For me, this is the utmost form of atrocity I can bear with; more unbearable than anything that Sri Muthu Kumaran had noted in the first post of this thread. This is a unanimously clear sign of how unhealthy an organization is and can get. And I would go on to say that apart from being a shameless operation, this is nothing less than a public crime, since all these concerts are ticketed. The money of the members is actually utilized inappropriately, for seemingly personal benefits(not monetary), through this undemocratic process of (self)nominating the accompanists. (Anyone who intend to argue otherwise may want to look carefully into the list of the past concerts in the link above, before you start !)

Well, I know very well that there is no point jotting these criticisms here again (as we have already talked that permanent solutions need different line of action, which is anyways being planned now). But sorry, I cannot find any other way to vent out of my excitement on having been a witness to such a consistently autocratic system here, adamantly unwilling to undergo any change by itself or to assimilate suggestions from members and others (of course, next only to Libya)

PS: Would like to reiterate that these are not at all intended to be personal attacks targeted anyone in particular. Involvement of a particular person's name here is purely coincidental to the problem described. These criticisms are objective description of facts, with valid proofs as given. And these criticisms don't preclude my sincere appreciation and thanks for all the organizers and the hardwork they put in to bring in concerts to Atlanta. Just that I am just taking my personal liberty to call a spade a "spade"; a wrong a "wrong"

appu · Post by **appu** » 13 Mar 2011, 09:13

Reethigowla,

Yes this one mridangist Ram Sriram has played 26 out of 98 concerts since 1999. Wow now that is more than 25 percent of the concerts. This of course begs the question. " Is he good". Has he performed for these artists in India or elsewhere.

If the answer to these questions is Yes and Yes may be he is a capable accompanist. This also brings up the question of why should professional artists like our very own "Vidyarthi" (NSG) and TNS settle for substandard accompanist.

If Neyveli Santana Goplan is reading this post please weigh in and give us your opinion. is this artist any good or did you settle for a mediocre accompanist just because the performance had to be done.

Enlighten us please.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 13 Mar 2011, 09:28

Appu,
I have discussed this in detail in the thread "Perspective on amateurs accompanying the professionals"
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14903
I have cited objective facts about why the above accompanist was inadequate (I am using a constructive word here). See Post #1.

I agree that it is OK if he/she were good. But still it is awkward, dont you think so? Especially when the concerts are ticketed and also when there are other good mridangists in town. The organization proclaims itself to achieve such goals as "promoting" Carnatic music, apart from organizing concerts. How can carnatic music be "promoted" if a single person is the only accompanist for the past 12 years?

I could go on and on. But don't think any more explanations are necessary 8)
Oh yea, thanks for taking pains to count the numbers !!

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 13 Mar 2011, 23:12

Thought, this one could be posted in here too, for it's relevance with respect to what we have been discussing.
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... &start=125

Muthu Kumaran wrote:rethigowla48,

Using public organizations and ticketed events for promoting a single person is a gross misuse of power by any stretch of imagination. We all understand the problem and I am slightly encouraged by the responses we are getting on this forum.

However, the question of how to objectively measure a person's skill, expertise and fit still remains largely unanswered. Virtually in all other disciplines of science and arts, there are governing bodies and institutes that are universally acknowledged as the authority to measure and certify a person's level of proficiency. 'PE' license for engineers, 'belt' system for karate, 'CPA/CMA' certification for accountants and 'PMP' certification for project managers come to mind. In all these instances, there are set standards of expectation for a person to be placed at a skill level and the governing bodies (which are mostly privately run) oversee and administer these certifications.

In India, A-I-R provides the fundamental system of classifying musicians into 4 grades: B, B-Hi, A and A-Top. In the absence of such a universally accepted system for musicians outside India, we are left with no choice but to let the organizations and people in power positions determine the skill level of individuals (almost always subjectively).

One option would be to figure out f A-I-R can certify musicians outside India. If this is possible, then we’ll have a system of apples-to-apples comparison and will be in a much better position to match visiting artistes with local talent of the same proficiency level.

Any thoughts?

fun_on_the_move · Post by **fun_on_the_move** » 14 Mar 2011, 20:44

doyoucare,

I did not understand what you meant by 'soliloquy' in this context.

VRV · Post by **VRV** » 14 Mar 2011, 21:16

Muthu Kumaran wrote:rethigowla48,

One option would be to figure out f A-I-R can certify musicians outside India. If this is possible, then we’ll have a system of apples-to-apples comparison and will be in a much better position to match visiting artistes with local talent of the same proficiency level.

Any thoughts?

My understanding is AIR will audition and grade anyone who applies whether they are from India or abroad. If living abroad they may have to be of Indian origin. This I am not sure of. You have to file the paper work within the deadlines and be available for the audition when they ask you to. This is where the problem is. Many times artist audition dates conflict with school, college or work schedules and artists are unable to keep their dates. I personally know of 3 artists who have auditioned and have a B and B(high). Also you must be 18 years of age to get an audition with AIR

Vinod Venkataraman

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Mar 2011, 02:51

fun_on_the_move wrote:doyoucare,

I did not understand what you meant by 'soliloquy' in this context.

That is probably a reference to the same person registering under multiple ids and having a conversation under those multiple ids in the same thread. We try to detect it and take care of it wherever possible and to the extent of our detective skills afforded by the available tools. From outside, 'soliloquy' is often suspected when multiple members with 1 or 2 post counts hold a conversation in a thread ( though such possibilities are not just limited to that scenario, there are soliloquy possibility with a member id with high post count and a recently joined member id with 1 or 2 post counts )

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 15 Mar 2011, 08:33

This site conveniently erased my postings. Where is the freedom of expression? My conclusion is this site is run by the cronies of Cleveland Aradhana and Jaya TV, if not by the organizers themselves. What a plight!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Mar 2011, 09:07

rigveda, I did that in my capacity as the site moderator and sent you an email. Please check your email where I have explained the reasons. That action was taken because those posts about Cleveland did not belong here and you have expressed the same stuff in many other threads. They are all still there. Don't whine about freedom of expression when you had freedom to express the same thing multiple times.

And your conclusions are 100% wrong.

If you have any other comments about the moderator's activity, please contact us by email and not in this thread or any other thread. If such posts are posted in threads here, they will be deleted.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 15 Mar 2011, 09:17

reethigowla48,

For whatever reason, you have it in for Dr Ram Sriram. It's pointless couching it in "general" terms with elaborate posts about "perspectives", "amateurs", blah, blah when you could have saved yourself and others a lot of effort by simplifying it to a single line and ONE post: "I can't stand Ram Sriram and I wish to see him banished".

Needless to say, such hatred is undesirable and is not a family value

. But it's your problem to deal with your demons.

Once you get rid of the demons, you may realize that your characterization of this situation is way out of line. So Dr Ram Sriram has played for 25% of the concerts. Why don't you help the CMAGA raise more funds/subscriptions to pay to change this situation...seriously, what have you done ?

Back in 2002 when I lived in Atlanta and had the privilege of interacting closely with Dr. Sriram and other CMAGA members, I came to know that Dr Sriram was doing a literally thankless job, trying to drive subscriptions from perpetually AWOL rasikas and filling in as the free substitute mrdangam player to save money for the next concert, not to speak of endless pains that Dr Sriram and Rama Sriram take to be very gracious and hospitable hosts to a steady stream of visiting artists.

So this relentless character assasination is getting to me...I am at a point similar to Zell Miller during the 2004 Republican convention when he challenged Chris Matthews to a duel on live TV! So Reethigowla48, whoever you are, I challenge you to a duel sir ! Your weapon of choice

.

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 25 Mar 2011, 22:33

Now Uday you are scaring me--please do not take up this duel.If you lose I will lose MY ONLY admirer . I do not know this reethigowla person from Adam and I am afraid to ask--- being a Northeasterner(aka Yankee)--what if reethigowla happens to be a Confederate I might suffer the same fate as Dr.Sriram!!
Have you removed USA from the list of countries you visit?

gee · Post by **gee** » 26 Mar 2011, 01:04

I have seen several comments in this post and reethigowla's older thread that have content along the lines of "stop complaining. if you don't like the concert, don't attend." etc etc. With all due respect, don't you think its improper to be making comments like these? Everyone should have an equal voice of opinion here. There is nothing wrong in critiquing a concert or introducing an idea. It is the rasika's personal opinion, and the point of this forum is for people to speak their minds...unless I am very much mistaken.

I am slightly familiar with some of the musicians in Atlanta (my first mridangam guru, Sri Suresh Kothandaraman, being one of them...does anyone know him?). I am surprised because I thought Atlanta was a relatively active hotspot for CM.

If one sees a problem with a current system, the best thing to do is to take matters into your own hands. Sri Muthu Kumaran, I think the most viable option would be to start hosting your events. Of course, its easier said than done. You have to have motivation, willpower, and a willingness to sacrifice to pull it off successfully. However, it can be done, and if done, should solve all of your problems. You could start small...with maybe hosting an aradhana yearly and small house concerts. Invite the local CM lovers and have decent concerts with the local musicians. You should actively pursue sources of funding for your organization (so that you can have more concerts with top artists and attract larger audiences). For example, I used to be a member of my high school newspaper staff back when I attended high school. We would actively go out and call companies to see whether they would like to put an ad in our newspaper at a certain cost. It was difficult work, but several companies did oblige, and we put out a paper every month. From there, you can watch your organization grow.

Btw, VK Raman sir, are you the flautist VK Raman? If so, I am a huge fan.

Anyways, this is my humble viewpoint on the matter.

gee · Post by **gee** » 26 Mar 2011, 01:08

VRV wrote:
My understanding is AIR will audition and grade anyone who applies whether they are from India or abroad. If living abroad they may have to be of Indian origin. This I am not sure of. You have to file the paper work within the deadlines and be available for the audition when they ask you to. This is where the problem is. Many times artist audition dates conflict with school, college or work schedules and artists are unable to keep their dates. I personally know of 3 artists who have auditioned and have a B and B(high). Also you must be 18 years of age to get an audition with AIR

Vinod Venkataraman

Yes, this is correct. AIR will award grades to any artist, whether they are in India or abroad. I'm not so sure about the Indian origin part though. The procedure mentioned above is correct too. Once the paperwork is filed, AIR gives you the audition date. It is then a two part process. The first is the "audition", where a panel of judges (all seasoned artists) listen to you perform, whatever it is that you perform. Then, if you pass the audition, they will give you another date...where you must participate in a recording session and send the recording to AIR Delhi. You will get your results anywhere from 1 to 5 years (long, i know!). Once you are a B High or an A grade and are trying to upgrade...you only have to go for a recording session.

gee · Post by **gee** » 26 Mar 2011, 01:43

VK RAMAN wrote:"rather than waste your passion and energy battling an entrenched organization, show them how it should be done correctly by starting another Sabha" this is a challenging proposition. I like it.

this is exactly what i was aiming for when i wrote my previous post. i'm sure i just reiterated a lot of previously made points though

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 26 Mar 2011, 06:25

VK RAMAN wrote:"rather than waste your passion and energy battling an entrenched organization, show them how it should be done correctly by starting another Sabha" this is a challenging proposition. I like it.

Mahakavi Bharathi had the right words just for this situation: avar vaaych chollil veeraradi.

The full verse is:

Nenjil uram indri
nermai thiramum inri
vanjani solvaradi kiliye
vaaych chollil veeraradi

The whole thing seems to fit.

And as they say in the US, if the shoe fits, wear it!

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 26 Mar 2011, 06:33

Ramasubramanian M.K wrote:
Now Uday you are scaring me--please do not take up this duel.If you lose I will lose MY ONLY admirer . I do not know this reethigowla person from Adam and I am afraid to ask--- being a Northeasterner(aka Yankee)--what if reethigowla happens to be a Confederate I might suffer the same fate as Dr.Sriram!!

I have always thought Uday cannot be a real name but must be a nickname. Not knowing this person, I thought perhaps he is a weakling who had a "Kick Me" sign on the back of his shirt put there by his classmates and that might have given rise to the nickname.

Now I know I am wrong. He must be a 220-lb (100 kilos to those of you raised in the metric system; 15 stone, 10 lbs to Nick) heavy who can kick (uday) people around so you need to have no worries on this account.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Mar 2011, 07:35

harimau, I recall that angle of his name had already been explored.. in a different topic, in a different duel!!

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 27 Mar 2011, 09:18

Hi All,
Some music enthusiasts in DC started a new Carnatic sabha by themselves (something we have been talking about in this forum; especially by the members: Shruthilaya(Sreenadh), Muthukumaran, and now by gee)

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15967
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/srgmpdn-music-forum

It is a good sign and very encouraging for everyone who believe in the
1. "True", "holistic" promotion of carnatic music in local communities and cities
2. Support and encouragement for young kids and experienced amateur musicians, for improvising their talents and rise to professional standards.
Kudos to SRGPMDN group !!
For me, any slight departure from the usual--monopoly by a single person or a group of people, autocratically conducting music sabhas using public funds, for satisfying personal interests, remaining totally oblivious to the idea of public good--is an encouraging factor !

Reethigowla48

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 27 Mar 2011, 09:26

uday_shankar wrote:reethigowla48,

For whatever reason, you have it in for Dr Ram Sriram. It's pointless couching it in "general" terms with elaborate posts about "perspectives", "amateurs", blah, blah when you could have saved yourself and others a lot of effort by simplifying it to a single line and ONE post: "I can't stand Ram Sriram and I wish to see him banished".

Needless to say, such hatred is undesirable and is not a family value . But it's your problem to deal with your demons.

Once you get rid of the demons, you may realize that your characterization of this situation is way out of line. So Dr Ram Sriram has played for 25% of the concerts. Why don't you help the CMAGA raise more funds/subscriptions to pay to change this situation...seriously, what have you done ?

Back in 2002 when I lived in Atlanta and had the privilege of interacting closely with Dr. Sriram and other CMAGA members, I came to know that Dr Sriram was doing a literally thankless job, trying to drive subscriptions from perpetually AWOL rasikas and filling in as the free substitute mrdangam player to save money for the next concert, not to speak of endless pains that Dr Sriram and Rama Sriram take to be very gracious and hospitable hosts to a steady stream of visiting artists.

So this relentless character assasination is getting to me...I am at a point similar to Zell Miller during the 2004 Republican convention when he challenged Chris Matthews to a duel on live TV! So Reethigowla48, whoever you are, I challenge you to a duel sir ! Your weapon of choice .

Hitler was a really good human being in his personal life; for example he loved his dog so much and was very kind to it; he was very nice to his servants and cared for them very well.

Reethigowla48

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 27 Mar 2011, 09:45

reethigowla48 wrote:
We all hate Hitler...

Reethigowla48

But you have more in common with Goebbels!

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 27 Mar 2011, 17:56

Hitler! I rest my case.
(never thought Godwin's law would kick in in rasikas.org).