Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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shankarank
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#301 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

Now a break with some funny interludes:

Sanskrit teacher ( his name is Sankara Sastrigal - my namesake) - Raghuvamsa in class : As dilIpa and sudakshiNa travel on the chariot , the ride is bumpy with ups and downs just like how life is ups and downs - explaining kAldiasAs upamAnam

Couple of naughty boys from behind - one telling the other ( Pardon them they were late teens Ok!): There are bumps and pits in humans too! ( I am translating for those who know tamizh here it is in tamizh: manuShALLayum mEDu paLLam uNDu).

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Over a decade and half later in a post lecdem conversation - the lecdem of a Mother/Daughter Duo on Padams and jAvaLis:

They sang the paraj padam : smara sundaranguni.

An expert rasika - keen observer of notes: "Paraj rendition had that touch of pratimadyama!"

Others in conversation : "Yes indeed!"

Expert rasika continues: "I have heard the view it is a sin to touch such extraneous notes in a rAgam. pAvamamE saar!"

An Oldie experienced rasika: "What you say may be true , but such liberties are there in such compositions."

Expert rasika continues: "But did you notice the Mother did not sing that touch, but left it to the daughter to do it?"

The Oldie experienced rasika quipped: "Well the mother might have consciously left the sinful actions to the daughter ( pOra vazhikku puNNiyam tEDikoNDAr!) "

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So that is SRngAra rasa savoured ( of secular variety? ;) ) with no qualms , and no effort required to understand the "lyrics" - just on the fly.

So the question of any language being a camouflage is moot now :lol:

Improvisational rasikas weren't they! :D

kvchellappa
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#302 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kvchellappa »

Jawaliye thevalAm.

sureshvv
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#303 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by sureshvv »

kvchellappa wrote: 07 Mar 2020, 09:46 Jawaliye thevalAm.
Did you mean Jaw vali :D?

shankarank
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#304 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

Now this also:

https://narthaki.com/info/articles/art87.html
Rukmini Devi's statement, “The dance should not be sexy. Sexiness has no place in our arts,” best sums up the concept of brahminisation of Bharatanatyam. Coming from an Indian looking back on erotic Indian literary works like Kama Sutra and Geeta Govinda, this is indicative of the austerity measures and convenient censorship of the dance form by Brahmins.

Why it had to be called Brahminization of BharatanATyam? Rather call it theosophization of the same!

vgovindan
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#305 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

....."Balasaraswati remarked, “If you remove sringara from dance, what will people like us do?” Rukmini Devi answered, “I have no problem with sex or love, nor with portraying sringara, but the dance should not be sexy. Sexiness has no place in our arts....."

That sums up coming from a woman and belonging to Devadasi parampara. SRngAra is the core of our creation and evolution. There is nothing to be ashamed of it if one knows where to draw the boundary from the point of public display.

For the origins of the word 'brahminisation', one would better listen to Dr. Raj Vedam. The artcle itself contains a rather an unsavoury quote about what it means to be called a brahmin - it is not about birth, that is only a caste - it is much profound, but that profound aspect has been relegated to nowhere. Kanchi Mahaperiava would call the so called brahmins by birth as 'brAhmaNa bandhu'. That's altogether a different topic.

The article is fairly presented, though it is only an excerpt of a dissertation. In the main paper he might have gone into the real source of dance and music - the gandharva origins.

By emphasizing on the much-polluted word 'brahminisation', which was colonial hangover, adopted by so called social reformers in order to show their disgust about their own - other castes - inability to get a strong foothold in education and thus gain more job opportunities - in which brahmins were quick because of their being wedded to learning.

People knowledgeable still wonder why India could not be Islamised or Christianised, like it happened in other countries. It is the contribution of brahmins - though mostly as a brahmaNa bandhu, yet that was a major contributing factor, which will be recognized by history after another a few millennia. In the meanwhile, we will continue to be quarrelling among ourselves - a hallmark of brahmins. But the virulent form of much abused 'Hindutva', might prove to be the very undoing of what we stand for.

kvchellappa
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#306 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kvchellappa »

The topic is hikacked to 'brahmin' though javali has nothing to do with brahmin, nor the rasa of javali. It is difficult to agree that proselytisation failed because of Brahmins. It is because of non-Brahmins and women, not Brahmins most of whom have become 'secular' and 'sophisticated'. Brahmins have given up on Brahminism and taken to 'lotus on water' attitude to religious issues. Nothing of Vedic religion survives really. What we have is puranic religion based on temples, worship and bhakti which cut across caste or varna (it is difficult to see the distinction in practice). There were several non-Brahmins who were prominent in the bhakti movement. Take away Murti and Bhakti, Hinduism will collapse.
The term Brahmabandhu (rather than Brahmanabandhu) perhaps occurs first in Chandogya Upanishad:
शवेतकेतुर्हारुणेय आस तम्ह पितोवाच श्वेतकेतो वस ब्रह्मचर्यं न वै सोम्यास्मत्कुलीनोsननूच्य ब्रह्मबन्धुरिव भवतीति I Perhaps all Brahmanas did not go for adhyayanam even in those days.

shankarank
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#307 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

Whatever be "who a brahmin is" , these new ideas did not come about for 1000(s) of years, but came about now ( meaning 20th century!). Should we not just ask what is new that brought these ideas? We don't need to meander into various other things.

Pratyaksham Bala
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#308 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
Behold the power of Javali !
It leads the rasikas to Chandogya Upanished
& Vajrasucika Upanishad !

sureshvv
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#309 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by sureshvv »

kvchellappa wrote: 10 Mar 2020, 09:06 It is difficult to agree that proselytisation failed because of Brahmins. It is because of non-Brahmins and women, not Brahmins <snip>
Interesting that you group women separately. A little bit like Lord Krishna himself :D

shankarank
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#310 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

Well , well that could be from oppression theories! Club everybody who are oppressed!

However we have seen, Communist parties have been headed by people ID'd as Brahmins. Nobody ever talks about brahminization of Communism! Nothing sticks to the left. They are like teflon or nirlEp!

vgovindan
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#311 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

The true colour of SRngAra - that would resonate with THAT. Who cares about the beauty of words, melody, rAga or tALa or even bhAva that is enacted for entertaining audience and with no conviction? This Love has nothing to do with one's face or the bodily features - it is when the heart communicates, that a response is resonated and then the love story is enacted. It's heart speak.

All else is just duplicity for the sake of worldly riches.

https://youtu.be/nzkiwvca8cA

shankarank
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#312 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: 29 Jan 2020, 09:46 Telugu Javali 'celi nEnETlu sahintunE' rendered by Smt. D.K. Pattammal:
https://gaana.com/song/cheli-nenetlu-ja ... -pattammal
So a tamizh jAvAli here in the same tune - does it circumvent the issues raised ?

https://youtu.be/NpAOfYmWQr4?t=8175

No camouflage of Telugu!

shankarank
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#313 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: 29 Jan 2020, 09:46 Telugu Javali 'celi nEnETlu sahintunE' rendered by Smt. D.K. Pattammal:
https://gaana.com/song/cheli-nenetlu-ja ... -pattammal
So a tamizh jAvAli here in the same tune - does it circumvent the issues raised ?

https://youtu.be/NpAOfYmWQr4?t=8175

No camouflage of Telugu!

vgovindan
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#314 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

Shankarank,
With my limited knowledge and exposure to CM, when I initiated the topic, I was under the impression that Javalis are normally in Telugu only. Later on I realised that there are more such material in Tamil too, but, till date I have not come across a more 'plain invitation' than what is given in the Javali I quoted. And, you call that SRngAra? Well, I will leave it to the judgement of people.

I have clarified that it is not Javali, as a musical or dance format, that is under scrutiny, but the 'exploitation' of the format to hide the obvious. I left the forum in disgust. Then, when I was casually perusing the topics, I came across the post about the gentleman who 'propounded' that tyAgarAja also wrote Javalis. This made me sit up. Did I miss something? I thought I had gone through patiently all the material of Sri tyAgarAja (I wouldn't like to offend the gentlemen who detest tyAgarAja being called 'tyAgarAja svAmi' - no, he is an ordinary mortal with all weaknesses, but with extra-ordinary musical talent, isn't he?). I had not found anything to even remotely suggest that Sri tyAgarAja was having any such exploitative inclination, when he used the Javali format for some of his kRtis.

Coming to SRngAra, as such, we had heated debate elsewhere and could come to no reasonable understanding. Well, the topic is such that it defies a simple definition. That's why I started a separate thread to bring all possible material - and opinions too - in one place. Let's see how it goes. In the meanwhile, I came across the following link. I don't know whether this has already been referred.

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/re ... 373522931e

Enough has been said on the subject.

kkbava
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#315 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kkbava »

Sir,

Apologies for sending a reply without reading the full thread. Merely read the last reply (#314)

My mother did her M.Phil and PhD from Andhra University on the topic of "telugu sAhityamlO jAvaLIlu - oka pariSIlana" తెలుగు సాహిత్యంలో జావళీలు - ఒక పరిశీలన - "jAvaLis in Telugu Literature". She came across jAvaLis in Tamil, and Kannada also (I'm sure all of you are aware of the same)


She didnt like the common opinion that jAvaLis were merely lewd poetry. That was the core theme of her research.

Right now, we're publishing lyrics of all jAvaLis she collected - at https://javali.blog
Will go through this entire thread one of these days, and add any new jAvaLis I can locate to our blog post.

Someday, when I can spend some more time, I'll try to publish her entire thesis also online (in Telugu language only).

Regards,
kk

RSR
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#316 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

what srungara? just a silly euphemism for plain aninmal lust with a capital L. ...Just translate those telugu stuff into plain tamizh for purely tamizh audience. and see for yourself if you can listen to such in the company of your grownup daugters!what is the use of discussing this with fellows who do not know the difference between romance -an affair of the heart and lust? Mods are requested to lock this obnoxious thread. javali deals with tune and rhyhm . it can have a nice theme- non-sexual
jayadeve sang all his songs on the courtesan padmavathi. and the kshethrgaya went from temple to temple seeking the favours of call girls abounding in hose days In Andhra country. what is so great about it?

shankarank
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#317 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

Today's audience will listen to "thunbam nErgaiyil" composed by an atheist ( which itself is meaningless of course for Indian context!) filling a stadium! They cannot even listen to real music!

How do you expect them to know anything? They are just products of silly education born of silly liberalism. They won't have the guts to call the shutdown and ban of countless movies, not recent , but since the days of "paguttarivu" which normalize abuse of Women!

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