Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

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srikant1987
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Varnams

Post by srikant1987 »

Yes, I think the interpretation is that magaDu and mAmagAru are worldly hindrances which come in grhastha life.

vgovindan
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

sruti,
Re Post #43.
In an earlier discussion, it has been told to me that 'varnam', 'padam' and 'jAvali' come under the same category. It is all greek to me. Therefore, I have given a common example and title. I hope that makes sense.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I have updated the title to reflect all three.

Javalis have much more of this content and the padavarNams (e.g. the elaborate varnams used in dance ) is no slouch either!! Varnams used to start CM concerts, the thAna varnams, are milder and more in the romantic category.

vgovindan
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by vgovindan »

Thanks vk.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by vasanthakokilam »

will not be found offensive (even to swathi :D who has dabbled in shringaram..
CML, if adultery is shringaram, what is not shringaram? I think that is the basic issue I have with this. It drags a whole legitimate genre down with it :) I can not associate any redemptive quality to it and get on the side of the female protagonist. Other jAvaLis at least can be interpreted in a non family context but this one is not.

But as I write this, I do grant one thing. It exposes some flaws in our interpretation of the moral values of those times. As one obvious example, in other jAvaLis where the female character's marital status is not disclosed, we assume she is not married but we do not pause to ponder about the marital status of the male character. ( all in the human, and not divine, context ).

In that sense, there is a redemptive quality to this song ( it makes you think about that asymmetry ) though I highly doubt that was the objective of the composer.

cmlover
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by cmlover »

The gopis were married!
But the escape here is 'madhura bhakti'...
But is it not still shringaram?

ShrutiLaya
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by ShrutiLaya »

vasanthakokilam wrote: But as I write this, I do grant one thing. It exposes some flaws in our interpretation of the moral values of those times. As one obvious example, in other jAvaLis where the female character's marital status is not disclosed, we assume she is not married but we do not pause to ponder about the marital status of the male character. ( all in the human, and not divine, context ).
I guess we're going quite off topic here, at least as far as the title of this thread - but the divine context also exposes double standards. The legend is full of women who fall in love with the Lord eg. Gopikas, Meerabai etc., - in Meera's case, consider herself married to Krishna - and this is considered madhura bhakti. But I am sure it will be blasphemy for a man, married or otherwise, to consider a goddess his bride ..

- Sreenadh

vgovindan
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by vgovindan »

cml,
When kRshNa goes to Mathura along with balarAma, He meets a hump-backed flower-vending girl. She was carrying flowers to the palace. KRshaNa got down from his chariot, set right her crookedness and went to her house.

When brahmA stole all the cows and calves, kRshNa became cows and calves and remained as such for a whole year.

vishNu impersonated tulasi's husband and stayed with her.

Meera, even after marriage, considered kRshNa as her husband.

So much for that 'womaniser' and adultery.

I can dig out more examples so that you can strengthen your case that 'adultery' is SRngAra.

rshankar
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by rshankar »

Sreenadh - LOL! Agree with what you've said, but bhArati has done exactly that.

mAmanAr and husband maybe bothers of married life, gRhasthASrama, but they can be alluded to in a very refined manner - in madanAnga mOhana sukumAranE, Sri OVK (in the form of a gOpi) says, 'ingu nandakumArin gAnatirkku iSainda paDiyum ADi vaittAccu, angu yen mAmiyAr nAttanAr sorpaDi ADavENDum idu pADAi pOccu'.

These sort of sentiments can be found in compositions in other languages, not just telugu, as well.
Let's take purandaradAsa's cikkavanO ivanu...Lji can post the lyrics and Smt. Savitri can translate - but in the p/ap, kRshna asks a gOpi about the 'birds and the bees' (makkaLu huTTuva marma); in the first caraNam, he tries to entice the gOpi into having s-x with him (kUDuva), and creates a scene (hOrATTa) when she demurs; and in the last caraNam, kRshNa comes to her disguised as her husband, and she does have s-x with him - and she bemoans by fact by saying that she was stupid (buddhi illada) to do so....In the song 'meLLa meLLanE bandanE', there is a line that goes SaSimukhiyarellanu basavamADidanu, IIRC, which means, he impregnated a host of beautiful women....
sUrdAs' sUrsAgar is full of very descriptive verses explaining in intimate detail the physical love between kRshNa and vRshbhAnu kumAri/rAdhA....

Ranganayaki
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by Ranganayaki »

rshankar wrote:Sreenadh - LOL! Agree with what you've said, but bhArati has done exactly that.

Shankar, I understand this is a partial answer to what I've asked you in the Payum OLi thread..
rshankar wrote:mAmanAr and husband maybe bothers of married life, gRhasthASrama, but they can be alluded to in a very refined manner - ...
This was the point I was making re. the translation by Govindan - of course, no one has really made it clear whether the original was any more refined than Govindan's version or not. It is quite possible that his words were just right.. who knows..

cmlover
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by cmlover »

just think of the lyrics with slight changes as follows:
என் மனைவி ஊரிலில்லை; மாமியாரின் தொல்லையில்லை;
சமய சந்தர்ப்பம் பார்த்து வாடி
This even in Tamil can be sung with impunity with no protests from the male or female clan. The implied invitation is for a call-girl which is 'acceptable'. You don't even have to invoke the name of any divinity to soften the lyrics. Why this double standards?
By the by VGV is there any instance in our puranas of any of our Goddesses commiting adultery?

vgovindan
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by vgovindan »

From my side I have nothing more to tell. I have conveyed in my posts whatever I wanted to convey. Good Bye - as for this topic is concerned.

sruthi
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by sruthi »

Please watch this video where Prof SRJ and Kalpagam mami (bless her soul!) are discussing a surutti varnam of Subbarama Dikshitar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNso3nYh5PA

At the start, Prof SRJ says the sahityam has the nayaki-nayaka bhavam. And Kalpagam mami says "sahityam eppidi irunda enna?" (meaning: how does it matter what the sahityam is?)

It is quite revealing what a senior vidushi thinks about this topic.

sureshvv
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by sureshvv »

cmlover wrote: This even in Tamil can be sung with impunity with no protests from the male or female clan. The implied invitation is for a call-girl which is 'acceptable'. You don't even have to invoke the name of any divinity to soften the lyrics...
Is which planet is this acceptable? And by who? Please don't resort to hyperbole in order to score a point in your argument - whatever that may be |(

sureshvv
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by sureshvv »

ShrutiLaya wrote:
I guess we're going quite off topic here, at least as far as the title of this thread - but the divine context also exposes double standards. The legend is full of women who fall in love with the Lord eg. Gopikas, Meerabai etc., - in Meera's case, consider herself married to Krishna - and this is considered madhura bhakti. But I am sure it will be blasphemy for a man, married or otherwise, to consider a goddess his bride ..
But Of Course! Women are much more given to madhura bhakti.. in fact "madhura" anything... including making an argument. This thread should be ample proof.

srikant1987
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by srikant1987 »

sruthi wrote:At the start, Prof SRJ says the sahityam has the nayaki-nayaka bhavam. And Kalpagam mami says "sahityam eppidi irunda enna?" (meaning: how does it matter what the sahityam is?)
Yes, I remembered the video too. IIrc, even SRJ begins as "sAhityatta viTTu taLLungO" (let's leave the sAhitya aside) (for the varNam).

Ranganayaki
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by Ranganayaki »

sruthi wrote:Please watch this video where Prof SRJ and Kalpagam mami (bless her soul!) are discussing a surutti varnam of Subbarama Dikshitar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNso3nYh5PA

At the start, Prof SRJ says the sahityam has the nayaki-nayaka bhavam. And Kalpagam mami says "sahityam eppidi irunda enna?" (meaning: how does it matter what the sahityam is?)

It is quite revealing what a senior vidushi thinks about this topic.
I was thinking it was not that clear.. OR at least, it is not clear what Sruthi thinks the lady thinks.

Just want to quote Arasi in the thread that is paying homage to her:

Her comment; pATTai vITTuDungO while SRJ wondered about the lyrics of a particular varNam only meant that when the composition was musically beautiful, one could ignore the words--especially while playing it on the vINA when one didn't hear the words, anyway! Here, it merely means that you cannot throw such a beautiful 'musical' composition away.

I think even what Prof. SRJ thinks of it is not completely clear. Clearly he loves the varnam for the raga prayogams. My impression is he doesn't particularly mind the lyrics, or give a damn. But he is mindful of the Mami being an elderly person, especially a woman and he is being deferential to what he assumes would be repulsive to her. I really hear that in his words.

She is, surprisingly, in the light of that assumption, much more pragmatic and is unconcerned with the sahityam, just as Arasi says. To her the sahityam is irrelevant.
....

The way a lot of these songs are sung and listened to, I think that is the case for most of us, till attention is drawn to the vulgarity.

Shankar, my early comment in the thread about Ravi Varma's concert re. the poetry and classiness of javalis came from the one and only javali I am familiar with : Smara Sundaranguni Sari Evvare..I have heard it sung and the words are sonorous. I felt it was reasonably poetic and decent. I had no idea javalies were any worse in meaning or in the choice of words for the sahitya. Unfortunately, no one in this discussion has come up with quotes that are comprehensible and I am unable to agree or disagree that javalies are as bawdy as the song we discussed in the other thread.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 07 Apr 2011, 21:46, edited 1 time in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by Ranganayaki »

sureshvv wrote:But Of Course! Women are much more given to madhura bhakti.. in fact "madhura" anything... including making an argument. This thread should be ample proof.
Suresh, are you in turn taking a shot at me? :) Not sure how many women are here in this thread, but it seems only Ranganayaki's posts make the word "ample" valid.. But, at least, you think it's "madhura" :).. I would prefer to be madhura and speak my mind, I hope I haven't raised the "amplitude".

You've said a nice thing, :) (hope I've not misinterpreted you) so I'm going to let you go for the comment about women being more given to arguing.

Re. being given to other things like Madhura bhakti.. :) - I don't know if that is true or false.. Looks like Bharatiyar was given to it, according to Shankar's interpretation! Still may be there have been more women than men.. May be that's why we have more male cult leaders.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
Please see:
Post #443 in the thread --
General Discussions > KavidaigaL by Rasikas.

.

cmlover
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varn

Post by cmlover »

Good!

Ranganayaki
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Varnams

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote:CML, if adultery is shringaram, what is not shringaram? I think that is the basic issue I have with this. It drags a whole legitimate genre down with it :) I can not associate any redemptive quality to it and get on the side of the female protagonist. .
As far as I understand "shringara" it is just a rasa, a mood. The mood can be present, no matter who the nayaka or the nayika is. Its presence in one kind of story even if it were truly objectionable does not mean that the rasa cannot exist in other higher plane stories. There is no morality implied in any rasa.. if there were, then the Bhibhatsa rasa cannot even exist!! The name of the rasa in the context of a work of poetry is just a description of the mood of the poem. It doesn't serve to elevate of depress the status of the poem itself.
vgovindan wrote:As a corollary, a lyric which rather than transporting me to a higher plane, when it makes me sink into abyss (from where one would like to get out), I would surely deplore it.
This is something I really understand and I feel for Mr. Govindan. I am always elevated and joyfully transported when I listen to music. I would hate to listen to anything that makes my heart sink. And we are not obliged to listen to such things and each person may have a different view of what makes his heart sink. But then, what if you are at a concert and your heart sinks? Then I would feel really bad for a person of Mr. Govindan's sensitivity.

That said, I think the discussion here (even though I have repeatedly been asking for more lyrics) has revolved only around the single one that he quoted at the outset. Someone else did mention that other varnams are more palatable in content. I too referred to Smara sundaranguni, which (with my limited understanding of Telugu) doesn't seem to have vulgarity. How frequently is this one varnam sung? Would it be possible to momentarily ignore it? Think of the Lord and let the song end? Or leave, if it is sung close enough to the end of the evening? I think a little breath, with an ability to ignore inconsequential things and keep your peace of mind and let the rest of the world be what it will be is not a bad thing after all.

ajaysimha
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by ajaysimha »

how did the trend of kannada javalis start ? while telugu was ruling padam / javali area.

did Mysore Odeyars or their court musicians(mysore composers) have any of their workmanship put into this genre ?

who are popular ones in composing kannada javalis ..

@Lakshman ji, can you share the list of kannada javalis that you have ?

SrinathK
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by SrinathK »

I'd like to share some thoughts on this and related issues in a few paragraphs, albeit disjointed.

Some days back I shared my own convictions on the subject of sringara / madhurya rasa. Some of this comes from my familiarity with the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya works.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=296&start=200#p359196

The one mistake however lies in thinking that all compositions in this genre are equal. Not everyone is Shuka or Jayadeva or Annamacharya or Chaitanya Or surdas or Meera where the Divine as the subject makes it spiritual. The character of all these personalities is also known and respected. There is no difference there between rasa and bhakti. In these sampradayas it is understood that only the Divine lover can ever do the rasalila and that many compositions are the inner inspirations and spiritual experiences of the devotees.

Much of that literature wasn't even for the wide public. It was private amongst the devotees.

But of course this can also be turned into the really ordinary or mundane. The art world was quite an uncomfortably loose place in the past when it came to lifestyle (and as it turns out, some musicians are still that way). I believe it is for this reason that sringara became a dirty word in an orthodox society. It is a clear social shift.

Javalis are very raw compositions. Most of these songs can be melodically rich though. But the lyrics are raw. Even padams and varnams can extend themselves to all the other rasas, but javalis? Most film songs aren't nearly so explicit!

We should look into what kind of society existed at the times in when some of these pieces were composed and who were the composers and for whom the songs were composed and what was the story and context behind it.

About lyric vs melody, I will make a wager that we can sing a varnam or khayal with only the letters and vowels of the alphabet and no one will be any wiser if they only heard the music and thought we were singing in a foreign language. How do foreign audiences or kids start loving music? I have for most of my life not known telugu or Sanskrit. I didn't even know my first geetams were in kannaDa!

Next. About the amoral nature of emotion. Emotions don't know any sort of morality intrinsically and very often not even the consequences. Try becoming too loose with sringara in the real world and the implosion of that civilization is not far. Laws and codes are the logical organized side of life, the pingala, the creation of the frontal cortex. Emotions are more primal, in the mid and reptilian brain, the ida.

That is why they had to restrict sringara. Not that it isn't beautiful inside of a healthy relationship, but it is an animal instinct - it does not care. One cannot give guns to untrained amateurs!

So yes, srinagara is both the divine and the devil!! Divine when God is the subject, healthy when ruled by awareness and the devil when man foolishly tries to play God for real.

My actual gripe was with those who can't tell the difference and put them all in one category for the bin. There is a vast difference between a parayanam of the Bhagavatam vs the mundane in terms of actual impact on the psyche.

Sringara is a pendulum, it oscillates between addiction and puritanism. When the pendulum goes all the way in one direction, it must start swinging back. Rarely though has it ever been truly in balance.

Perhaps it is good that music, dance and society moved away from sringara for quite some time. Over time we come back to it with a healthier understanding and better balance. Even the Sampradaya of Chaitanya had to take several steps back from madhurya rasa back to sadhana bhakti (courtesy Bhaktisiddhanta) after the whole thing had become contaminated over the centuries by sexually loose behavior and all sorts of deviant practices of the followers. So these cultural shifts seem to be a macroscopic social trend. This is my personal opinion.

Now coming to telugu, it just seems to be the language of choice by default due to all these composers so it has ruled the field since. There are plenty of songs in other languages too. But I am sure plenty of people got away knowing very well the tamizh speaking audience has no idea of the lyrics. I believe that if these songs were literally in tamizh they could not have been sung as they were in the early part of the 20th century.

I believe the conflict between lyrical rawness vs melodic beauty has caused not a small amount of cognitive dissonance!

Beyond the spiritual side of it, the rest ultimately boils down to just how of much of it is really in your taste.
Last edited by SrinathK on 28 Jan 2020, 10:30, edited 4 times in total.

Lakshman
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Lakshman »

ajaysimha: Here is what I found. Spellings may be incorrect.

There is a Sangeetha cassette # P4ECDB 7726 P.Aruna has sung kannaDa jAvaLis:
ariyavanu-dEs, avenene-kApi, barabArade-bahudAri, chikka heNNu-kharaharapriyA,
kaNasalli-kEdAra, kOpa idEnayya-jOgkauns.
Other jAvaLIs:
bandanEnE sakhi-dEvamanOhari-S.N.Mariappa
bEganE barabAradE-khamAs-
Enendu nA hELali-behAg
hOgelO caturanE-bahudAri-Bangalore Mukund
hOgelO tanta-bahudAri-Bangalore Mukund
hOguvadenidu-simhEndramadhyam-S.N.Mariappa
kAnta enna ravi kAnta-husEni-Bangalore Mukund
kAraNa kELi bArE-hindustAni kApi-S.N.Mariappa
madanake sundaranE-khamAs-S.N.Srilatha

shankarank
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

The real bhakti songs even in tamizh call for an abounding bhakti!! So that makes every listener a true bhatka?? So if the telugu songs sing about deviant behaviour , OK then render it to musically mature audience ( isn't that what happens/happened?). Don't musicians exercise discretion?

Here is a mature open civilization that spoke about lot of things, but we sit in judgement now??

When duality is not understood , no point discussing non-duality. Language is sacred, letters are sacred! It is not about communication - lets just accept it!

The music is sacred and divine , and that is NOT because the "lyrics" refers to "gods"!!

shankarank
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

This , we didn't know Telugu lyric, what it means is like saying , all this time we didn't know that the Mridangam or most percussion instruments are made of cow hide!

I can avoid Leather sofa and leather seated car, or leather belt, but how to make instruments out of cloth? May be we should find some way!

Ranganayaki
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Ranganayaki »

I remember this thread, but I haven’t gone over all of it one more time.. Have we made a list of the specific Varnam s or javalies that could be considered offensive? Who are the composers, which period did these compositions occur in? What are the other works of the same poets like? Could they be a product of the period when music and dance were associated with the decline of the devadasis? This type of information may help us make personal judgements according to our taste.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

These might have been composed to entertain Telugu warriors during the period of Krishnadevaraya and Nayaka kings who ruled over Tamil land.

shankarank
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

In Arkay convention center , a now discredited scholar speaking on gIta gOvindam, said the same thing.
All these ladies sing Ashtapadis in bhajans without knowing the meaning and hence it goes!
What an utterly false statement. I have heard upanyasams in Ayodhya manTapam which have pointed out the rasa behind it and the lord even correcting it in disguise to keep it in one instance.

So the ladies never heard of it. Scholarship has blinded these people and made them look down upon others! That's all I can say.

If the said compositions were kept alive by people over the years, then they did not view them out of place right. We underestimate their intelligence??

The so called education which is touted as being given all of us some empowerment, actually blinds us! That's all I can say!

It is my turn to look down upon the educated!

RSR
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

1) I would term 'srungara' as 'romance' . I do not know the exact sanskrit word for 'lust'. Generally 'kaamam' is used for that. (though kaamam may simply refer to just desire- but rarely so.)
'kaamam, krodham, lobam, moham' -thyakthva ' - ( Bajagovindam.. what a horrible choice of slokam for setting to tune! )
Crudity and vulgarity are clearly defined there ' Naree sthana bara -naabi desam , dhrushtva maaga mohaavesam' -eathat mamsava sadhu viharam'!'
------------------

2) Srungara is romantic attachment between the two genders. It is found among animals also. just as lust.
Just as parent-child relation, bosom-friendship, community feeling, ideological resonance and patriotic feeling, a platonic affection can be soul-lifting. Actually, physical 'consummation' may even be repugnant. The yearning is not physical- it is not even an expectation of response but something else . Sydney Cortan. Mouni's 'Prapancha gaanam'

3) Outlet for the animal level Lust and 'consummation', is not the purpose of gruhasthasramam as enjoined in our scriptures . The purpose was to get a progeny ( a male progeny at that) to fully discharge the duties to 'pithrus'. So much so, the saastras denounce all chidren except the first male child as born out of sin.

4) The purpose of Gruhasthasrama was not sensual gratification . The Gruhastha is the foundation for the brammacharis ( students), destitutes and dependents and ascetics .
'aachaarya devo bhava- adithi devo bhava'.
It was sinful to eat before offering to a guest.

5) Romance is a matter of mind rather than physical. It is more connected with ego rather than libido. When the affection is not reciprocated, it shatters the young mind . It has nothing to do with the physical and lust aspect.

6) It is always better to remember that man is just an animal with more developed intelligence. Whether it is God-given or a matter of evolutionary process, the ideal is to transcend the animal level in ALL aspects. ..

7) Unrequitted romance has given rise to more poetic excellence than satisfied lust.

8) The life partner is meant to be a 'saha-dharmini', (ie) a partner in a fruitful and service-oriented life.

9) All Art and Literature should aim at lifting the mind towards the 'Kingdom of God' within us. and not to leave us in the stinking gutter of animal passions where we already are and worse still, push us deeper into the gutter.

10) Glorifying the Eros is not the aim of any artistic activity. Civilization is born out of Repression. (ie) discipline and rejection of sensual pleasures as much as within an individual's capacity, perhaps fore-ordained by genetic factors . ( Herbert Marcuse-Eros and Civilization). Medical personnel may understand the devastating effect of 'front-lobe damage'.

11) In the coming centuries, if not already there, artificial wombs and cloning will definitely become the possibility. Carnal union may then become unncessary to prolong the species. And humanity may even question the need for prolonging itself. Scientists are puzzled by some species committing mass suicide! How that advance of Science will be used depends on power structure in society. Perhaps, the few may flee the earth and settle down in some other planet. Yankee Super rich have already booked their plots there.

12) Can we see 'God'? 'Yes', have asserted many of the seers. Perhaps they had it in their genes. It simply means a blissful state of mind. We all have felt it fleetingly in life totally unrelated to gender stuff. I have.,
It may be due to total identification with something outside our devil within the self that is EGO.
Just as Genius are born and not made, still we have an army of so-called research-workers experimenting and building things bit by bit, ( quantity then becomes quality - a dialectical process), Real breakthrough is not however made by these 'doctorates' but by genius. To recognize that is the first lesson in understanding real creativity.
==========================
Whoever brought in the Erotic motive in Devotional music is to be roundly condemned.
I remember a revolting song being taught by a very cultured and good CM teacher to adolescent girls students ( Jayadeva.. I do not remember the exact words- it goes something like this...'....dheera sameepe yamuna theere.... payodhara mardhana payodhara mardhana ' ) without batting an eyelid. The girls may or may not have understood. If the song had been in the language known to them, they would or should have walked away.
Enough for today. Dissociate dance music from VOCAL CM.
If you love the tunes, by all means use it in instrumental music.
Tunes cannot be vulgar.
Words can be.
Hence the importance of understanding the meaning of lyrics before singing them.
Perhaps the tunes of Tillanas, JavaLis and pada varnams are crying to be immediately being converted into staff notation and the lyrics destroyed for ever.
Why did LGJ who has composed so many Tillanas ( what were the lyrics about?) It is a musical form of tune and rhythm. Not for lyrics. )
refuse to play accompaniment to lady artistes?
Even a Viswamithra fell to charms of Menaka. That is why acscetics retired to solitude and forest .
Do not glorify LUST in the guise of Music.

SrinathK
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by SrinathK »

Do us all a favour, get enlightened for real or at least see a live example of an enlightened being in your life. Then we may discuss the rest. Now you are going too far with the male progeny thing, accompanying woman artistes, etc. etc. All this is merely puritanical or austerity and not enlightened. I hope you are not so rigid about sastras that you treat your daughters (if you have daughters or are or were married), like a product of sin. It is hurting actually to read these things. In fact your ideas raise serious questions on whether you have ever known a relationship or enlightenment or subtler ecstasies far surpassing the physical (if you've read some near death experiences) or anything about genius.

The dharma sastras or puranas say a lot of things, but really, this is a golden cage, spiritual looking, but still a cage. And it gets ever more conditional and ever more discriminatory (and ridiculous)the deeper you go into it. It just keeps making liberation more and more difficult. Everything becomes a sin. From a yogic standpoint, those people want to talk of sahasrara and atma jnana when their svadishtana itself is closed due to excessive hate of the physical. There can be no such blockages if enlightenment has to happen. A sterile life and spiritual life are not the same. Without actually having the experience of spiritual bliss to replace the ordinary, just repression and sin only create a sterile, emotionally dead life. Austerity is not enlightened. You have not seen real spiritual relationships, that intensity is something else. Many people imitate that through rules and restrictions and end up lifeless. Imitation is not the real thing - the results themselves will make it clear in due course.

If you were a lawmaker you might make relationships illegal in favour of industrialized conception!! Extremism in divine name is dangerous - it has committed far more sin than all others. What is favourable for a sannyasi should not become the "one and only divine way" to look down upon others. That is just ego.

There are many people who have created deep shame and self hatred of themselves supported by ideals and scriptures of what they believe divinity is. But then when the inevitable is needed, they rationalize and regulate it with more scripture so that they don't have to feel guilty about it. But invariably a lot of stuff in the closet comes out in these overly orthodox religious societies.

Jayadeva's works were written 900 years ago and only meant for Krishna, but Divine will ensured the world knew their greatness. Only very uttama bhagavatas like Chaitanya relished these topics in their circles. When every holy saint since then from Guru Nanak to Ramakrishna to Chaitanya to Krishna Premi and the deity Himself has extolled them who claims to be greater and more enlightened?

That's it for me on this topic on this forum. I am out of this, before I get to hear things like seeing a woman's face at a certain time of the day destroys all your punya or that the bride and groom must never even see or talk to each other before marriage or they will go to hell, or that latest controversy in ISKCON that women can't be enlightened or be gurus or all this purity cleanliness based discrimination. Those people are more bodily conscious than normal folk!

Out of all false egos, a spiritual religious ego is the subtlest and biggest of 'em all, so subtle most people don't even realize. But the results speak for themselves. Only one who broke out of it can see it for what it is.

I leave with this. I won't get into such topics again here on this forum.
Last edited by SrinathK on 29 Jan 2020, 10:42, edited 10 times in total.

ajaysimha
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by ajaysimha »

ajaysimha wrote: 27 Jan 2020, 15:42 how did the trend of kannada javalis start ? while telugu was ruling padam / javali area.

did Mysore Odeyars or their court musicians(mysore composers) have any of their workmanship put into this genre ?
any idea ?

thanks @Lakshman ji for the list,

but i could not find the album that you mentioned.

what is it's full name.. ? who all the artists ?
Lakshman wrote: 27 Jan 2020, 22:08 ajaysimha: Here is what I found. Spellings may be incorrect.

There is a Sangeetha cassette # P4ECDB 7726 P.Aruna has sung kannaDa jAvaLis:
ariyavanu-dEs, avenene-kApi, barabArade-bahudAri, chikka heNNu-kharaharapriyA,
kaNasalli-kEdAra, kOpa idEnayya-jOgkauns.

Lakshman
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Lakshman »

Sangeetha cassette # P4ECDB 7726 by P.Aruna. The cassette may be out of circulation now.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

RSR wrote: 28 Jan 2020, 11:53... the saastras denounce all chidren except the first male child as born out of sin. ...
Which saastra ? Can you please quote the particular shlokas ?

RasikasModerator2
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RasikasModerator2 »

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: 28 Jan 2020, 19:23
RSR wrote: 28 Jan 2020, 11:53... the saastras denounce all chidren except the first male child as born out of sin. ...
Which saastra ? Can you please quote the particular shlokas ?
No need to discuss these controversies further here. All are requested to stay on topic.

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 28 Jan 2020, 11:53 1) ... (though kaamam may simply refer to just desire- but rarely so.)
kaama is preference said this presenter in one of the sessions. Not able to get it. But she notes the general issues with translations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Pat7agSMJU

iSHTa kamyARtha siddhi, kAmita phaladAyaka ( Sri tyAgaraja in kaligiyunTE) points to purushARthas. Tiruvalluvar has kaamattuppAl.

Some tamizh researchers now claim , the word kiramam evolved from kaamam which was once used in the sense of grouping, joining together. That then became grAma and gamut. They point to the village kathir kaamam in Srilanka.

Which Indologists ( and I remember you @RSR using it) refer to disparagingly as fertility cults! And they are some enlightened cults!

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Telugu Javali 'celi nEnETlu sahintunE' rendered by Smt. M S Subbulakshmi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKDgSdF_Bv8

RSR
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

As the discussion is being continued, despite the @moderator 's fiat
let me answer some points.
---------------------
@shankarank ishta kaamya siddhi - simply means 'attaining the 'desired' fruits. It has nothing to do with lust. Sanskrit scholars are requested to give EXACT word for lust.
ThirukkuraL is an abbreviated amalgam of (a) Dharma Sastra of North,( possibly of Manu) with Jain and Buddhist modifications ( even as accepted , promoted and propogated by a 'brahmin converts after Buddha. ) ( Ref-Kosambi) especially on the issue of Divine forces and animal sacrifice. (b) Artha Sasthra of Chanakya (c) Kama sutra of Vathsyayana. ( Vaiyapuri Pillai places KuraL around 600 AD!).
Its speciality is its lyrical pithiness and synthesis of the then prevailing three main intellectual trends in Tamil country , namely Vedic Ritual Brahminism, ( agni worship- fire ritual of sacrifice- even of cows!), and the main concepts of Jain and Buddhist doctrines.
Above all , by the delicacy and decency of its treatment of man-woman relation purely in the level of emotions. Absolutely no trace of vulgarity ( Even Vathsyayana was guilty in that aspect). I cannot bring myself to graphic descrion of erotic foreplay and such. ( Base yourself solely on Valmiki Ramayanam and Thyagaraja kritis). more in the tradition of 'Aka Nanooru' of Sangam poetry.
By the time of Kanishka's reign in Gandhara , Buddhism ( coinciding with Sathavahana dynasty 200 BC to 200 AD- post Asoka period) had adopted Sanskrit ( rather than Pali) and had almost become one with Brahminism. Jawaharlal admired ( on the lines of Dr.Radhakrishnan) Sankara of 600 AD as 'hidden Buddhist' -Discovery of India). And Buddhism especially in Bengal had degenerated into disgusting tantric practices of the primitive tribes of Saktha worship ( glorifying liquor, meat and lust)! That was why it was overthrown by the Bakthi cult. in 600 AD . once and for all in India.

Primitive society of pre 3000 BC is the Gangetic plain had a major problem of shortage of man power. compared to the beasts. ( like the Wild West of the Yanks and Siberian expanse of Russia). There was a time immediately after the second war, when the Stalin Govt gave special honours to mothers giving birth to many children.
Fertility cult was associated with that. The more members in the family, more working hands. But after food sufficiency was achieved , the emphasis shifted to not mere number but on quality and efficacy of labour in matters of brain and brawn and skills in wealth production and labour. This is the root of the much-maligned VarNa system. The moment, we realize that it was not based on birth, the rationale of the 'classification' becomes evident. But still, Eugenics does play a part as recognized by the Shastras. ( Essays of a biologist- Julian Huxley).
Huxley points out the socially detrimental trend of the decline of the intellectually equipped section of society being swamped by the broods of brutality, paaNi and plain mules. Marx opines that Primitive communism was an impediment to development of productive forces and forced labour was a precondition for material progress.
Last edited by RSR on 29 Jan 2020, 09:56, edited 1 time in total.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Telugu Javali 'celi nEnETlu sahintunE' rendered by Smt. D.K. Pattammal:
https://gaana.com/song/cheli-nenetlu-ja ... -pattammal

RSR
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

@81
@SrinathK
I have indeed moved with great souls and still do. Equally, importantly, I shun the company of lust-oriented lewds.
Argue if possible . Don t abuse. Your field of life experience is much too narrow to judge me. Get it .

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Telugu Javali ‘sakhi prANA’ rendered by Smt. M.S. Subbulakshmi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXgqqkstrSQ

RSR
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

@84
@ Pratyaksham Bala
----------------------
"106. Immediately on the birth of his first-born a man is (called) the father of a son and is freed from the debt to the manes; that (son), therefore, is worthy (to receive) the whole estate.

107. That son alone on whom he throws his debt and through whom he obtains immortality, is begotten for (the fulfilment of) the law; all the rest they consider the offspring of desire.

------
https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu/manu09.htm
The Laws of Manu
George Bühler, translator
(Sacred Books of the East, Volume 25)

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

desire = sin ?

Anyway, here is another JAVALI link :
Telugu Javali ‘apadUruku lOnaitinE’ rendered by Smt. M.L. Vasanthakumari:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcUiL-d9jIc

RSR
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

Manu dharma shastra on marriage, morals and daughters.
------------------------------------------------
26. Between wives (striyah) who (are destined) to bear children, who secure many blessings, who are worthy of worship and irradiate (their) dwellings, and between the goddesses of fortune (sriyah, who reside) in the houses (of men), there is no difference whatsoever.

27. The production of children, the nurture of those born, and the daily life of men, (of these matters) woman is visibly the cause.

28. Offspring, (the due performance on religious rites, faithful service, highest conjugal happiness and heavenly bliss for the ancestors and oneself, depend on one's wife alone.

29. She who, controlling her thoughts, speech, and acts, violates not her duty towards her lord, dwells with him (after death) in heaven, and in this world is called by the virtuous a faithful (wife, sadhvi)
-----------
100. Nor, indeed, have we heard, even in former creations, of such (a thing as) the covert sale of a daughter for a fixed price, called a nuptial fee.

101. 'Let mutual fidelity continue until death,' this may be considered as the summary of the highest law for husband and wife.

102. Let man and woman, united in marriage, constantly exert themselves, that (they may not be) disunited (and) may not violate their mutual fidelity.
-
8. To a distinguished, handsome suitor (of) equal (caste) should (a father) give his daughter in accordance with the prescribed rule, though she have not attained (the proper age).
91. If, being not given in marriage, she herself seeks a husband, she incurs no guilt, nor (does) he whom she weds.
--------------------------------

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

RasikasModerator2 wrote: 28 Jan 2020, 20:42 No need to discuss these controversies further here. All are requested to stay on topic.

RSR
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RSR »

@Pratyaksham Bala
Music forms like Tillaanna, pada varNam, taana varnam , swarajathi, and its counterpart jathiswaram, are all absolutely allowed and approved art forms.
How many times should I remind that music is entirely different from lyrical loveliness and propriety of theme?
Just imagine that the tunes are played in an instrument. What is objectionable? Nothing. Sometimes, they may be exhilerating too!
Are you with me upto this point?
------------
Now we come to the lyrics and their import.
I am not objecting to the 'romantic' theme couched in decent language.
But whether the theme is decent or properly worded can be understood only by the listeners who know the language. Others simply are following the tune. That is where the mischief occurs.
---------
You have given some examples sung by Smt.MS, Smt.DKP and Smt.MLV
I have gone through the meaning of those songs. There is no vulgarity.
The ladies were much too erudite and refined to sing 'record dance'.
For that matter, even lyricists of film songs do not employ crude words ( except very rarely).
Pure music ( Instrumental music) can never be 'vulgar' though it can be crude in art.
Vulgarity appears only through words.
So, we should shun such songs.
I cannot explain more patiently.
=========================
By the way,
1) Kindly remove the linc given to your tamil 'poetry' ( @69 in this thread) , It is inexcusably vulgar , insulting and arrogant on a very very erudite and dedicated scholar in this forum Sri.V.Govindan.
mods are requested to remove that at the earliest.

2) Do not troll me.

SrinathK
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by SrinathK »

RSR wrote: 29 Jan 2020, 10:07 @81
@SrinathK
I have indeed moved with great souls and still do. Equally, importantly, I shun the company of lust-oriented lewds.
Argue if possible . Don t abuse. Your field of life experience is much too narrow to judge me. Get it .
I don't want to do any of this either. But please do not indiscriminately and repeatedly trash mahapurushas and mundaners alike. There are things you do not know either.

More than any smriti, the origins of the veda are in the 4 yogas. Ultimate realization of divinity is the deepest part of our spiritual wealth. Manu smriti is a side text of an era that doesn't exist now, that has gained far too much popularity due to its topics despite the fact that it has many inconsistencies and has clearly been edited by many people of many different temperaments. It in fact became this big only because of the importance given to it by the British. Not all scripture is equal.

RasikasModerator2
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by RasikasModerator2 »

All members are again requested to avoid turning this topic into a religious crusade, which is further getting into gender and community issues and what not. Thank you.

We are aware that heated debates on all these things have happened in the past, but society moves with the times and some notions held 100 years back are not accepted today and so on. But this is probably the first time this kind of a debate has happened on the forum.

If some of you do not like the lyrics you are at your liberty to choose not to listen or just listen to the melody. But on a public forum with a global audience different people have different backgrounds and views and likes. Please avoid repeated harsh attacks that may hurt others. You may not like it but do not force it on others. Please give space for others' sensibilities as well.

shankarank
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

If those who knew the language (Telugu here ) had had their say in these matters, then musicians would have acquired enough grit on the timescale to negotiate the arudhi bridge, deftly without splitting the words to fall either side of that bridge for the telugu songs abounding in bhakti :evil: .

Yes in a sense I agree with you Sir for one reason @RSR. The oft cited reason for carrying on some of these compositions is purely the wealth of rAgA which was the only thing considered music - a wrong notion which musicologists kept propagating on one side as well! ;)

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

RSR wrote: 29 Jan 2020, 11:09 @Pratyaksham Bala
... ... By the way,
1) Kindly remove the linc given to your tamil 'poetry' ( @69 in this thread) , It is inexcusably vulgar , insulting and arrogant on a very very erudite and dedicated scholar in this forum Sri.V.Govindan.
mods are requested to remove that at the earliest.

2) Do not troll me.
1) Which Tamil 'poetry' you are referring to ?
2) Trolling you ? Hardly have I participated in this thread. There was only one query - about the shastras, and that was just to get clarification.

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