Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

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sureshvv
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#201 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by sureshvv »

Ranganayaki wrote: 25 Feb 2020, 13:41
sureshvv wrote: 25 Feb 2020, 08:46 Thought you had argued for (and settled) true heart/intellect unification earlier.
Where? Quote me. I don’t think I spoke explicitly about intellect anywhere.. I am not aware of having said anything about heart-intellect unification.
I think I was referring to Post 16 here viewtopic.php?f=24&t=33850#p359038

This is about being clever, about making wayward lyrics appear socially acceptable, for the sake of livelihood, fame, etc. True Bhakti does not walk a razor’s edge. No fine balancing act. They go headlong into devotion.
1. A certain level of "cleverness" is needed for composing kritis. It is not just uncontrolled outpouring from the heart.

2. There is nothing "wayward" or "socially unacceptable" language in the lyrics of most javalis. People won't work hard to translate and present them in other languages if that were the case.

3. Livelihood, fame etc. are not the only reason for doing things. People just enjoy it too.

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#202 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Ranganayaki »

sureshvv wrote: 25 Feb 2020, 14:01 [
I think I was referring to Post 16 here viewtopic.php?f=24&t=33850#p359038

You’ve taken it out of context. The notion of Gnani does not refer to the intellect capable of clever words. It does not speak of any knowledge other than the one true knowledge of the nature of the self. I didn’t “argue” for such a unification as you say, I said what just happens when one becomes enlightened as the coverings fall off and you realize what you are.

1. A certain level of "cleverness" is needed for composing kritis. It is not just uncontrolled outpouring from the heart.

2. There is nothing "wayward" or "socially unacceptable" language in the lyrics of most javalis. People won't work hard to translate and present them in other languages if that were the case.

3. Livelihood, fame etc. are not the only reason for doing things. People just enjoy it too.
Believe me, I understand artistic expression. Some composers (In CM) are highly skilled with words, extremely erudite in all forms of spiritual and religious practice. MD was all that and much more. He knew the kshetras, the gods and goddesses associated with each kshetra, he had great musical abilities, and it all makes for superlative compositions, But not all compositions or composers require cleverness. Some Uncontrolled outpourings can result in utterly sensitive, emotional compositions and in my opinion, T was that kind of composer. I certainly hope that I didn’t lead anyone to think that I believe well-crafted compositions are inferior. I was comparing true Bhakti with the use of a god-name to elevate the composition. That was the question PB asked, at least that’s how I understood it, and that is what the topic of this thread argues. Disguising the lewdness of a composition through the use of god names in it, or the use of an unfamiliar language.

It is in that context that I would respond to all your points 1, 2, 3. If you are crafting a javali to effect a certain disguise, then the lyrics are wayward. If you set the theme and lyrics with enjoyment and in total freedom, that could be true artistic expression which could involve crafting for beautiful sounding words over ordinary ones, rhyme, meter, etc.

Same thing for 3 too. Such crafting and such expression would bring joy, enjoyment. You didn’t catch the context - I was sticking to the topic, I think. I believe in artistic freedom, no matter the theme, but disguising the true nature of your compOsition is not artistic freedom. Why would a composer be concerned about that razor’s edge that you refer to, if they felt free to compose as they wished?

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#203 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Ranganayaki »

This is an extract from a book detailing conversations between Vivekananda and a disciple, “Talks With Swami Vivekananda,” published by the Advaita Asrama. He speaks of the type of Bhakti that corresponds to the need of the hour and gives a surprising view of Madhura Bhakti.

Vivekananda: Can you bring in the worship of Sri Ramachandra, and Mahavira in this country? Keep aside for the present the Vrindavan aspect of Sri Krishna and spread far and wide the worship of Sri Krishna roaring the Gita out, with the voice of a lion. And bring into daily use the worship of Shakthi - the Divine Mother, the source of all power.

Disciple: Is the divine play of Sri Krishna with the gopis of Vrindavan not good then?

Vivekananda: Under the present circumstances, that worship is of no good to you. We now mostly need the ideal of a hero with the tremendous spirit of Rajas thrilling through his veins from head to foot-the hero who will dare and die to know the Truth - The hero whose armor is renunciation, whose sword is wisdom. We want now the spirit of the brave warrior in the battlefield of life, not of the wooing lover who looks upon life as a pleasure garden.


Disciple: Then are not those who are worshiping God as husband or lover (मधुर) following the proper path?


Vivekananda: I daresay not. There may be a few honorable exceptions among them but the greater part of them are possessed of a dark Tamasika nature. Most of them are afflicted with exceptional weakness. The country must be raised. The worship of Mahabala must be introduced (...)Shakthi puja must form a part of our daily practice. Sri Ramachandra must be worshiped in every home. There in lies your welfare, therein lies the good of the country - There is no other way.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 25 Feb 2020, 15:22, edited 1 time in total.

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#204 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Ranganayaki »

“Dark tamasik nature” doesn’t quite spell out to us, primarily English speakers, what is meant, but it is juxtaposed with the word “honorable” for the exceptiona.. and he is talking about the people - the majority of the practitioners of madhura. !!!

vgovindan
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#205 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

I came across a mention of 'asidhArA vrata' which is mentioned in kAlidAsa's raghuvaMSa (13 : 67). Literally this means 'vow as if (sleeping) on sword's edge'. Please refer to the link.

This is the kind of vow the persons adhering to madhura bhAva would undertake - not one day or two days, but twelve years.

This is applicable to SrIvidyA upAsakas also where one of the panca makAra is maithunam. MD was a SrividyA upAsaka.

Think it over.

पित्रा विसृष्टां मदपेक्षया यः श्रियं युवाप्यङ्कगतामभोक्ता ।
इयन्ति वर्षाणि तया सहोग्रमभ्यस्यतीव व्रतमासिधारम् ॥ १३-६७॥

For translation, visit desktop site.

https://sanskritdocuments.org/doc_z_mis ... ml?lang=sa
Last edited by vgovindan on 25 Feb 2020, 19:16, edited 1 time in total.

vgovindan
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#206 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

madhura bhAva is none other than brahma-caryam - not referring to ASrama of brahmacAri, but one who treads the path of brahman. All these paths - be it dvaita or advaita - reach the same goal. madhura bhAva is one of the methods in dvaita where 'sAyujya' is the goal.

'asidhArA' occurs in kaThOpanishad as 'kshurasya dhArA' - (quoted here)

उत्तिष्ठ जाग्रत प्राप्य वरान्निबोधत |
क्षुरस्य धारा निशिता दुरत्यया दुर्गं पथस्तत्कवयो वदन्ति || (1.3.14)

(uttiShTha jAgrata prApya varAn_nibodhata | kShurasya dhArA nihitA duratyayA pathas_tat_ -avayo vadanti || ) - which means

"Rise, awaken, seek the wise and realize. The path is difficult to cross like the sharpened edge of the razor (knife), so say the wise."

PS:

The quote from Vivekananda, reproduced by Ranganayaki, is to be seen in the context - of practising madhura bhAva -

"I daresay not. There may be a few honorable exceptions among them but the greater part of them are possessed of a dark Tamasika nature. Most of them are afflicted with exceptional weakness. "

Vivekananda could not answer the question directly, as happened with Adi Sankara, when encountered by wife of Mandana Misra. Sankara had to do para-kAya pravESa and experience conjugal love, and then respond to her suitably.

IMHO madhura bhAva is more difficult than pursuit of advaita, because one should have a suitable partner whose views are in congruence with his own. It is an almost impossible task.

Rama lived like that with his loving wife. Rishis of yore were not sannyAsis.

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#207 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Ranganayaki »

Reading and re-reading what you’ve said, and Sw. V’s words, I disagree. I think Sw. V is very clear and direct. To me Sw. V’s opinion and the question he is answering seems to be unrelated to this episode in Sankara’s life.

We (I certainly) do not know what specific questions Shankara became capable of discussing. But none of the great souls who practiced Madhura Bhakti had conjugal relations. Madhura Bhakti is a special psychological state, having nothing to do with the body, unlike Sankara’s experience through the raja’s body.

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#208 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

Ranganayaki,
The way out is, the way through. That's all.

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#209 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

In our sanAtana dharma, the Ultimate Reality is purusha - prakRti as His manifestation. Therefore, a woman (aspect of prakRti) can practise madhura bhakti dieectly with Purusha. But a man, though very much an aspect of prakRti, considers himself as purusha at mundane level, as the terminology and customs go. Therefore, he needs a woman aspect also to understand the nature of prEma. On the otherhand, the woman can directly envisage that with the Purusha - with a capital 'P'.

It is rather intriguing that in Devi Bhagavatam, in the chapter 'prAdhAnikaM rahasyam', the Ultimate Reality is womanhood - mahAlakshmi - embodiment of all three guNas. From Her arises, kAli (tAmasic aspect) and sarasvati (sAttvic aspect). She Herself undergoes transformation as lakshmi, the rAjasic aspect. And, each one produces a corresponding male aspect through maithuna. kAli - vishNu, sarasvati - Siva, lakshmi - brahmA. And they are exchanged as husband and wife - Siva - pArvati, brahmA - sarasvati and vishNu - lakshmi.

We the progeny of these combinations, cannot escape the scheme. Hence practising of madhura bhakti by woman is different from that of a man. To my knowledge, all madhura bhakti practising males are married - eg jayadEva - padmAvai, Annamacharya and two wives. On the otherhand, women practising madhura bhakti may be married or not - Meera, Andal.
Last edited by vgovindan on 26 Feb 2020, 12:20, edited 1 time in total.

Pratyaksham Bala
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#210 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
Javali
vAni pondu cAlu
By Dharmapuri Subbaraaya Aiyyar

Lyrics & Meaning at :
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=21612&p=244060&hil ... lu#p244060


Presented by :
T Balasaraswati – Vocal
T Jayammal – Vocal support
R S Gopalakrishnan – Violin
T Viswanathan – Flute
T Ranganathan - Mridangam
https://youtu.be/H8YreNmzwRs?t=1

////

By :
R Vedavalli
https://youtu.be/DZrPVlYMhVg?t=1

kvchellappa
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#211 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kvchellappa »

Behind madhura bhava, is there not the undercurrent of superiority of man, which is a social prejudice with nothing spiritual about such superiority? (It is sacrilege to have the reverse bhava.)
Is not Jayadeva's madhura bhava replete with voluptuousness which often overshadows spirituality? Perhaps, as in Jawali, it is in a language that we do not care to understand.
How many people bother about the meaning in Jawali? I have been listening to marubari a hundred items and enjoyed the lilting khamas never diluting it with understanding the meaning. In one lec-dem, TMK played a record by SSI and underscored the 'sensuousness' in his rendering, remarking 'Can you imagine SSI doing it?' The two clips above show Gayathri saying that they are singing it as a musical variation and Smt. RV also singing a Jawali. Are we perhaps kicking up the dust and making an issue where people never bothered about?
Music has inherent spirituality - a feeling of oneness, aikya - even with no reference to any meaning. All good music has it.

sureshvv
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#212 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by sureshvv »

You are confusing spirituality with emotion - the ability to take over a person's mind and move him or her out of their stupor/comfort zone. Good music has it. Good music with suitable lyrics is "verey level".

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#213 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by shankarank »

kvchellappa wrote: 27 Feb 2020, 07:56 Music has inherent spirituality - a feeling of oneness, aikya - even with no reference to any meaning. All good music has it.
There is music in words!
kvchellappa wrote: 27 Feb 2020, 07:56 "It is in a language we do not understand!"
I bet nobody can easily understand any tamizh work either unless one has studied that language deeply and been acquainted with it closely! The west studies it's classics with completely different orientation ( a literary intellectual orientation!) than how old kavyAs of bharata are studied! Literally every speaker use to recite it musically, even tamizh verses - non bhakti ones too! Only very recently, with literary forums claiming to be intellectual ( arivu saarndavarkal) , the music was given up!

I think when people spoke about SamskRtam as dEva bhAsha they mis-spoke and even if they were right in their domain, they were misunderstood!

Simple: if motherhood is revered as divine and mAtR dEvO bhava is true, then every mother tongue that adheres to that value is a sacred language - a dEva bhasha!

If gurur dEvo bhava is true - all the great vAggEyakaras works are divine! When Vid(s) Ranjani & Gayathri sang a dAsara pada in the tail end - the way they pronounced entA made a kannadiga friend of mine walk up to them with elation post concert. I could feel it too - I don't know the language!

Intellect is a tool of thinking not the end of it! It is the "Intellect" we should name in the social privilege that humans confer to themselves , not anything else.

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#214 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kvchellappa »

sureshvv wrote: 27 Feb 2020, 08:58 You are confusing spirituality with emotion - the ability to take over a person's mind and move him or her out of their stupor/comfort zone. Good music has it. Good music with suitable lyrics is "verey level".
We have different views. I have, in my own understanding, a spiritual experience while listening to chaste music, beyond the meaning and grammar. It happens when the singer feels it and we can sense it. It does not make you realise something transcendental. Spirituality is about ordinary experience, not something imagined, however powerfully. Spirituality is in sheer enjoyment of being. Music takes you there.

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#215 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Ranganayaki »

I completely agree.
sureshvv wrote: ↑
You are confusing spirituality with emotion -
I don’t see how one can deny what another has experienced.
It happens when the singer feels it and we can sense it.
Yes. I had that experience listening to TMK (please let’s not get into an argument about TMK) at the concert which Was held elsewhere after SSVT cancelled on him. He sang with deep Bhakti.. it was not about deities, I felt, yet I can only describe it as Bhakti.. May be shraddha towards music. There was humility too, surprisingly.. and it was a spiritual moment for me too.

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#216 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by SrinathK »

Actually if you look at it logically it is entirely possible to have a male version of sringara bhakti, with God playing the feminine. But it can very easily lead someone right back into identification with the physical so I do not see it as a very effective path of sadhana. So unless we have a hypothetical scenario where such an avatara of the feminine was actually present in front of us to relate to, there's too much mental manipulation here to lead us to jnana. For spirituality to happen, the mind actually needs to eventually quieten down and quit fantasizing. But if I read my Bhagavatam right, Shiva has actually gone that route once.

@Ranganayaki Actually the problem I am seeing amongst all of you is also one of a generation gap. My generation at this age doesn't find sringara bhakti a big conundrum like your generation and the one before it. It is your generation that is quite uncomfortable with sringara. Maybe it's because of our young age and a more liberal approach. :lol: Maybe it's because there are no kids around to worry about also. Now we may not sing some of those in public, and to me no one other than Krishna is allowed the right to parakiya bhava (it is dangerous in real life), but other than that we have no issues with the more explicit expressions of love privately, because we know all humans have felt them. :twisted:

@vgovindan I am going to make another statement to make your heads spin from my spiritual side of things -- that exploring bhakti's rasas as a sadhana is one thing, and it comes with many limitations but exploring them AFTER enlightenment as an inward experience is something else altogether. Almost everyone knows only the first - where bhakti ends up in the jnana of oneness. Very very few know the second, the bhakti that jnana leads to. If one great soul had not shared that with me, I might have never known that existed. But now I know it does.

In this context let me drift away from Telugu for a second and turn to the Godfather of madhura bhakti and his 8 verses.

http://www.krishna.com/info/siksastaka

The audio for Sikshastaka is sung by MS Amma in Balaji Pancharatnamala. In the last verse, Chaitanya openly calls Krishna 'lampatah' or an unfaithful debauchee, in the mood of Radha. What can we say then?

Ignoring the mundane composers who sang on their patrons and friends and partners, I am sure a lot of bhakti composers are actually in the second category rather than the first. As Ramana Maharshi said it best, "Adayartukku pAdradum aDanjapparm pAdrattukkum vidyasam undu" (the difference between singing to attain vs singing after attaining)

Normally I don't write this far into bhakti and music, but I feel a lot of bhakti composers are misunderstood and grouped on par with the "rest".

@kvchellappa Beyond lyrics, the music, the melody and rhythm, has a power entirely of its own. It is why we can thoroughly enjoy these songs as music while being totally oblivious to their lyrical content, and still sing them even after knowing their actual meanings. Not knowing the meaning as it was couched in an unknown language certainly helped, no doubt about it.
Last edited by SrinathK on 27 Feb 2020, 18:04, edited 1 time in total.

Ranganayaki
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#217 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Ranganayaki »

...
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 27 Feb 2020, 16:57, edited 2 times in total.

kvchellappa
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#218 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kvchellappa »

deleted
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#219 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Ranganayaki »

BTW Srinath, unlike you, I don’t divide the world into various segments. I don’t say “we” and “they”: not regarding religions, or races, and I don’t divide my world into generations and say “they” about your generation, for example. But you see generational divide. You see me as other in that light.

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#220 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Ranganayaki »

[
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 27 Feb 2020, 16:55, edited 1 time in total.

kvchellappa
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#221 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kvchellappa »

deleted
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#222 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sorry, I decided to delete almost everything. I re-read it and somehow the little snippets and replies read very poorly, so I don’t want to keep them.

Also it feels like I am arguing with Srinath and KVC and I’m not interested in doing that in a public forum.

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#223 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Ranganayaki »

I can’t believe I let Srinath’s words get to me and I responded word for word. I feel dismayed, my apologies to anyone who read me. I was not angry at all, but I felt irked and thought I had to represent myself! Big deal!

I just didn’t like to be talked to through a generalization. I didn’t speak offensively to him, I believe I took care of that and I hope I succeeded, But it was too much reaction when I need not have reacted. Foolishness.

Sorry, all who read 😝!

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#224 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by SrinathK »

I don't agree with Freud on this at all. I think he just found a theory to rationalize his own involuntary awkwardness as an immature adolescent. Can't blame him for the sudden awakening of one part of his (devoid of discrimination) reptilian brain, but surely a bit of neo cortex should have instantly put it in its place then and there.

Neverthless in parental relationships also, there seems to be a special possessive bonding between mothers of sons and fathers of daughters. While somehow a smart guy might just about manage to impress his father in law (who usually puts up maximum resistance only at the beginning with "Rules for dating my daughter"), I am waiting for the day if and when they'll ever find a cure for mother in law vs daughter in law syndrome - it is a competition, but one for attention. :P :P. :lol:.

Yes yes, before you jump in, exceptions exist, yes. But only a fool with no real experience would deny the truth of this. :twisted:

But also for better or worse, children when they grow up seem to repeat similar patterns with their partners based on their relationships with their parents.

I don't see any sringara in vatsalya bhava. In fact to club the two together is considered rasabhasha!! Seriously, do you need science to verify this? God, someone throw Fraud out of the window right now! Ugh!

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#225 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kvchellappa »

Great of you, Smt. Ranganayaki.

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#226 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

Srinath,
Whoever gave the meaning 'debauche' for 'lampaTa' - I wonder. SikshAshTakam is in dAsya bhAva. There is no rpeat no madhura bhAva there. In lalitA s
ahasranAma, Mother is called 'ramaNa lampaTa' meaning one who is fond of her husband. In rAjarAjESvari sahasra nAma 'rakshaNa lampaTA' occurs, which means one who eager to protect.
Debauche is an extreme meaning. The context has no such material to derive such a meaning. At best, it can be translated 'one who is whimsical'. I wonder how such a meaning has been derived.

About bhakti manifesting after matured jnAna, I have not grasped as to what you want to convey. Please claify.
Last edited by vgovindan on 28 Feb 2020, 06:37, edited 1 time in total.

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#227 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by SrinathK »

Ok, I am just putting up the elaborated explanation from Chaitanya's sampradaya here from the very book that originally revealed the Sikshastaka -- with a description of all the rasas covered in each verse. If you wish you can click each verse and read the original sanskrit and the bengali itself (very easy, it's a lot like Hindi) and see it for themselves.

Yes I have to correct myself. lampaTah means here very attached or fond of, that Krishna will do as he pleases, but in context of the verse it means sringara bhava, specifically that Krishna can do whatever he wants to even break hearts, so be it, yet he remains the Lord of one's life. (Krishna acting as he pleases in a Sringara context is a polite but subtly sarcastic way of saying he is not faithful or tameable, can't be exclusive and pursues whoever he likes...).

It has been explained by Kaviraja Goswami as such, and this was the book that revealed the Sikshastakam itself. There is plenty of Sringara described in the Chaitanya Charitamrita. Because you said there is no madhura bhava in it, I have to show you the source material from their parampara.

Note : This is also a well known human behavior, being attracted to what is vibrantly untamed and losing attraction for the domesticated. If only people knew :twisted: . Why do you think every single love plot from time immemorial is all about the coming together and ends exactly at the point of exclusivity? That goes against what we think sringara should logically be, and I think even after knowing it, most people will not be able to accept it, but sringara really declines after "THE END", if one lets it.

https://vedabase.io/en/library/cc/antya/20/

Well as to bhakti after jnana, that... only one who has experienced it has the right to talk of that further. No theory is going to figure out that which can only be experienced. I honestly have no idea and I don't think going to some yoga classes and listening to someone else is suddenly going to give me that. The one becoming the many to know itself in all ways is as real as the many waking up to know the one itself. He is sat and he is asat as the Gita says. Where oneness and twoness meet, the Divine unfolds. Who Chaitanya is one thing, a person. WHAT Chaitanya is, THAT who knows? ;)(These are NOT my words...).

vgovindan
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#228 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

"Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta is filled with the activities of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself."

This statement appears at the end of caitanya maAprabhu caritrAmRta. In all my study of vEdanta and bhakti literature, I have never come across a statement like this, that a devotee - no matter how exalted - is ever considered as 'Godhead Himself'. For me, this is travesty. Since I do not want to criticise anyone else's beliefs I would not like to comment one way or the other on SikshAshTaka or commentaries thereof. You are welcome to have your views.

jnAna has two crucial stages - one 'knowing' which is intellectual exercise and two 'realisation' of what has been known - this is beyond the scope of knowing as an intellectual exercise. bhakti is a natural culmination of this second stage, because one who has realised just does not sit as jaDa (inert). For more on the conduct of a person who has 'realised' while embodied - a jIvan mukta - please read 'jIvan muktAnanda lahari' of Adi Sankara.

sat and asat are not antagonistic - opposites. Like darkness has no separate existence other than as a consequence of absence (caused by obstruction) of light. Similarly 'asat' is enveloped by sat. There is nothing - no thing - that exists which is not pervaded by sat. This is vEdAnta,

vgovindan
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#229 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

I was trying to find the etymology of word 'SRngAra'. It is derived from SRnga which means 'horn'. Horn is an essential attribute of male species. If we see the animal kingdom, we find that, as compared to male species, female species are bland. Therefore, SRngAra - meaning beauty - in my opinion is an attribute of male species. How male species abdicated it to female species, should be a subject of research.

Ranganayaki
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#230 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Ranganayaki »

kvchellappa wrote: 27 Feb 2020, 18:38 Great of you, (...)
You are being kind and generous to me there, KVC. I wish I could agree ! 🙂 I’m not letting my outburst get me down, but it’s been a lesson. Thank you for your kindness.

vgovindan
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#231 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

".....specifically that Krishna can do whatever he wants to even break hearts...."

In kaThOpanishad, there is a verse -
नायमात्मा प्रवचनेन लभ्यो न मेधया न बहुना श्रुतेन ।
यमेवैष वृणुते तेन लभ्यस्तस्यैष आत्मा विवृणुते तनू्ँस्वाम् ।। 1.2.23 ।।

The general meaning given is that 'It chooses whomever to bestow'. It may look like whimsical, but it is not so. For example, when we dig a well, where we will strike water, depends on the strata, depth of water table, effort put in and the assiduousness of the digger. At one point we strike water. Similarly, the bestowal is dependent, not on whimsical nature of Lord but how sincere we are and what tool - method - we use (adopt). We may say 'whimsical - lampaTa', but not indeed so, we must qualify ourselves for that.

"......It has been explained by Kaviraja Goswami as such, and this was the book that revealed the Sikshastakam itself. There is plenty of Sringara described in the Chaitanya Charitamrita. Because you said there is no madhura bhava in it, I have to show you the source material from their parampara...."

SikshAshTaka contains no reference to prEma aspect. Either there is kinkara - (1) a servant, which has been taken to mean 'maid servant'; (2) - 'prANa nAtha', which is not necessarily in the husband - wife relationship, but the equation between Lord and each devotee.

Therefore, IMHO, there is no material in SikshAshTaka to say that it is in madhura bhAva. Probably the pre-conceived notion that we can approach Lord only as gOpis, gives rise to envisaging madhura bhAva in it. It is in dAsya bhAva, in my opinion.

Btw, what difference does it make as to which method we adopt? AkASAt patitam tOyam sAgaram pratigacchati; sarva dEva namaskAram mAdhavam pratigacchati. Are we splitting hair?

SrinathK
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#232 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by SrinathK »

Dasya and Sringara are very compatible as rasas and express similar sentiments. I'd say that the last 2 contain Sringara bhava, especially the last, along with dasa bhava. But I don't why you're reluctant to accept it. Those verses are written in ways that bhaktas of all temperaments and sentiments can appreciate it and that was how other poets also composed.

If there was a work of Adi Shankara, say Saundarya Lahari and Periyava explained a verse of Saundarya Lahari in a particular way, would you or I argue with that? Similarly this too. Anyway bhagavata is like a kalpa vriksha (nigama kalpa taror...) where anyone can taste what fruit they like and prefer, it is all available. But I do feel that my earlier generation is uncomfortable with accepting sringara even in bhakti. It is a reality just as the other bhavas.

Of course no one said Sringara bhava was the only way of bhakti. But if you consider the life of Chaitanya in the book (between the mystical parts) and if you would read the rest of this work, popularizing madhura bhava has been his unique contribution to the world and the speciality of that parampara. Before him there was Jayadeva and a few other padam creators. Annamacharya also lived in the era just before Chaitanya.

Rupa Goswami has specially written on the lines of nATyashastra in a bhakti context to show how the rasas intermingle and stand uniquely in many devotees.

Although today they do not want imitations, so they stick to nama sankirtana and deity worship and Bhagavata parayanam. I enquired with my friend in ISKCON about this and he told me understood that the rasas cannot really be practiced as a sadhana, but they need to appear within as the siddhi of bhakti yoga. This makes sense and it explains how devotees were able to write about the bhakti rasas. There's definitely a mystical side to it. Apparently apart from the usual gayatri mantras they also get initiated into a kama gayatri mantra for Krishna and some others. This he needs to give me more details about.

Some people in other places do offer it as an actual practice, but this was prone to so much mental distortion it was abolished as anti sampradaya.

Although others like azhwars have also expressed sringara in some of their works, and even some devotees of Shiva like Akka Mahadevi, what Chaitanya and others like Jayadeva before him did was something unique.
Last edited by SrinathK on 28 Feb 2020, 09:27, edited 1 time in total.

vgovindan
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#233 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

Srinath,
There is story of sage vyAsa and Suka - his son - explained beautifully by Shri TS Balakrishna Sastrigal in his upanyAsa on bhAgavata. Suka, such a staunch brahmacAri writes bhAgavatam with rAslIla. How could anyone fathom true devotees? On the other hand, Muddu Palani, a devadAsi of telugu origin from Tamilnadu writes such erotic poems - all alluding to kRshNa and rAdha - that the book was once proscribed. Then there was Osho who had a hard-to-explain approach to knowledge using questionable methods and the rest is history.

In the midst of all this was Meera, whose outpourings ring in every devotee's house. Such a nuanced approach!. Andal did it in the same way and reached the Lord and how!

Therefore, SRngAra has a role to play, but if it is understood that it is dicey, well and good; otherwise, what could result is 'Asuric bhAva' -

āsurīḿ yonim āpannā
mūḍhā janmani janmani
mām aprāpyaiva kaunteya
tato yānty adhamāḿ gatim

I may also state it is possible for a woman to directly approach Lord in madhura bhAva, but, if ever I try to envisage the opposite - man approaching in madhura bhava, only the Mother is there, not otherwise. Indeed, the scientific proof that male genes emerged from female, cannot be wished away.

kvchellappa
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#234 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kvchellappa »

How do we say male genes emerged from female genes? Scientifically, the genes of either gender are composite of both father and mother.

vgovindan
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#235 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

Kvc,
From reading of variety of scientific materials, what I gathered was that XY chromosome is a mutation of XX chromosome, and that mutation being beneficial from evolutionary point of view, it stayed and propagated. I am not a scientist. If I am wrong, I am open to correction. I also read that this XY chromosome is slowly diminishing due to various reasons, including environmental, and one day it might vanish altogether - that's some billion years away, some consolation!

Please correct me if I am wrong.

kvchellappa
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#236 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kvchellappa »

Thank you.
Last edited by kvchellappa on 28 Feb 2020, 10:23, edited 1 time in total.

sureshvv
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#237 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by sureshvv »

kvchellappa wrote: 27 Feb 2020, 07:56 Is not Jayadeva's madhura bhava replete with voluptuousness which often overshadows spirituality?
May be someone can deal with this.

Srinath? :D

Pratyaksham Bala
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#238 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
Imaginary scene

Announcement by the Vidwan in a kutcheri :
“Before I present the next item, I would like to clarify that it is not a javali, though it may sound ‘stronger’ than a javali. It is in fact a bhakti geet created by the most venerable so-&-so. I urge everyone of you to lift up your bhakti mood a few notches, and enjoy the geet. Thank you!”

Disclaimer :
The above scene is purely a product of imagination and used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.

vgovindan
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#239 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by vgovindan »

Suresh,
Here is something to munch before actual meals -
http://sivanandaonline.org/public_html/ ... on_id=1644

kvchellappa
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#240 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kvchellappa »

Interestingly, I was given Gita Govinda as prize in II Form (when I was 12 years old and could understand neither the original in Samskrtam nor the ornate prose commentary in English by S.lakshminarasimha Sastri.)
Here is a passage from the introduction:
“But Kalidasa’s sallies of voluptuousness are anaemic in comparison with the full-blooded salacities of Jayadeva. Hundreds of such instances might be cited, but we refrain from doing so, lest we offend decorum. Such recklessness in the use of voluptuous has evoked the well merited condemnation of Jagannatha Panditharaja ..”
I also refrain from quoting more.

sureshvv
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#241 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by sureshvv »

kvchellappa wrote: 27 Feb 2020, 07:56 Is not Jayadeva's madhura bhava replete with voluptuousness which often overshadows spirituality?
My first response would be "not Jayadeva's spirituality".

arasi
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#242 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by arasi »

From home, from out in the world,
From nature, from nurture, from
Every day, every phase of life
We have learnt, keep learning
It will never end until the end

To be open to ideas helps
To blindly follow does not
To be analytical does help
To overdo it? Hinders life

A child-like curiosity helps
Childishness doesn't-Depth
In delving, but with an ease
To refresh us in retaining
A child like innocence helps

How many wonders await us
To dive into! Labeling is bane
It hurts--do common folk,,
Products of the earth, by wisdom
Reap more than the learned?

Their ardor, once focused
Flows effortlessly, no halting
To parse every word, intent
Of the verse, bringing in more
Than is needed--let then the

Verses speak, our aim is to avoid
Byways and dark alleyways
No, not accepting all but only
Treasuring those which matter
Ours is to savor or just to move on...
Last edited by arasi on 28 Feb 2020, 16:27, edited 3 times in total.

kvchellappa
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#243 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kvchellappa »

It is remarkable that we can be sure of Jayadeva's spirituality and which was better in him going beyond his magnum opus. I do not see voluptuousness and spirituality as being mutually exclusive. Our scriptures and literature teach me so.

SrinathK
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#244 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by SrinathK »

sureshvv wrote: 28 Feb 2020, 10:19
kvchellappa wrote: 27 Feb 2020, 07:56 Is not Jayadeva's madhura bhava replete with voluptuousness which often overshadows spirituality?
May be someone can deal with this.

Srinath? :D
Those who have see that as something dirty and "non spiritual", only they have the problem. I don't. I am long past the age where I ought to remain too prudish and at this point I see Sringara has a place in existence just like everything else. As I said, it is a generation gap of values and beyond that a 900 year cultural gap. Personally I think we get too influenced by the renunciants (with all due respect) way to recognize spirituality beyond that. Sringara was seen as the demon between man and liberation, but Krishna has given a place for that also.

But I do accept that it takes maturity to read it as it is with devotion. This is not something you would just show as it is to an immature teenager. Jayadeva wrote his work only for Krishna. It has been popularized by others and is sung till today to Lord Jagannath.
Last edited by SrinathK on 28 Feb 2020, 15:51, edited 4 times in total.

sureshvv
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#245 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by sureshvv »

kvchellappa wrote: 28 Feb 2020, 13:57 It is remarkable that we can be sure of Jayadeva's spirituality and which was better in him going beyond his magnum opus. I do not see voluptuousness and spirituality as being mutually exclusive. Our scriptures and literature teach me so.
Not able to parse sentence #1.

rajeshnat
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#246 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by rajeshnat »

Arasi,
Thanks for that lovely prose or poem in post #242. When you write at times i feel like giving a title "Is English Language a camouflage for prose in the rhythm of poem or poem in the rhythm of prose".

arasi
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#247 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by arasi »

Rajesh
May be I'm not good at telling one from the other! Thanks, all the same...:)

kvchellappa
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#248 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kvchellappa »

A good rAgAnubhava discussion on Surutti, whose rasa is srngAra, by three stalwarts. Mention of jAwali as giving musical ideas, NSG singing a Tamizh jAwali of Sankara Iyer, and Sriram singing a north Indian folk song akin to jAwali are noteworthy. The three traditionalists discuss the musical import without distracted by the non-musical aspects of srngAra and jAwali. As I see, the musicians are after the development of musical ideas from various types of compositions, and rasikas enjoy by and large without delving into meaning. So, the apprehended harm in singing the jAwalis may not be as serious as corona-virus.
https://youtu.be/bArML7EdnOc?t=2314

arasi
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#249 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by arasi »

KVC,
SInce Sanjay's concert at the Gayana Samaja is still lingering on, I remembered his Malleswaram temple concert from last year and am reminded of 'mAtADa bAradEnO?' by Nagaratnamma that he sang that day. The atmosphere he created--the rising moon, sound of the bees and the longing in the tone of the piece was so well reflected in his singing. If you want to hear it, there's another rendering on the You Tube from his Calcutta (?) concert last year. You can find it on his own facebook videos.
Last edited by arasi on 28 Feb 2020, 21:49, edited 1 time in total.

kvchellappa
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#250 Re: Is Telugu Language a Camouflage for Javali, Padam & Varnams

Post by kvchellappa »

An enchanting one:
https://www.facebook.com/sanjaysubmusic ... 373903227/
Ramakrishnan Murthy sang too in his recent performance for SRLKM.
Last edited by kvchellappa on 29 Feb 2020, 08:52, edited 1 time in total.

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