The evolution of human voice range

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SrinathK
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Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by SrinathK »

Amazing to hear that whistle register hit with such clarity (It's not a true whistle, the sound actually comes from the vocal cords).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistle_register

Children can hit it all the time :twisted:

Coming to Carnatic Music, on a very good day, I've heard TMK (No, please everyone, remain calm :mrgreen: ) go from a G1 to a C5 and on one occasion an E5! This covers virtually the entire range from bass to high tenor. 3.75 Octaves! That still remains the widest I've heard.

The lowest note I've ever heard hit with power is a G1 by MDR (His lower Sa).

MSS : G2 to G5. Never used falsetto.

GNB : C1 to C4 (In one alapana), though in his younger days he could have probably gone to a D#4 when he was younger and his shruti was higher. Never used falsetto.

Yesudas : C1 to D4 (I'm thinking though there must have been some falsetto in those swaras)

Madurai Somu : I've heard the story of Lalgudi tuning down the mandara shadja string to match him once. But I haven't got values.

We don't get more because we aren't supposed to be using falsetto, head voice or whistle register in Indian music.

PS : For the reference, middle C (C4) is that of a male singer singing the Upper Sa at C (1 kattai).

uday_shankar
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by uday_shankar »

SrinathK wrote:The lowest note I've ever heard hit with power is a G1 by MDR (His lower Sa)
Actually I thought it was more like G#1 (i.e. slightly higher) in Shri raga alapana in the 1965 MA concert. We discussed these things in the past:
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 74#p234574

harimau
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Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by harimau »

SrinathK wrote:
Coming to Carnatic Music, on a very good day, I've heard TMK (No, please everyone, remain calm :mrgreen: ) go from a G1 to a C5 and on one occasion an E5! This covers virtually the entire range from bass to high tenor. 3.75 Octaves! That still remains the widest I've heard.
The record for the widest range in human voice belongs to a South American (Brazilian?) singer who could cover six-and-a-half octaves.

She passed away about a year or so ago.

Unfortunately, I can't recollect her name.

ganesh_mourthy
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Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR7TOwrb6wo

This is a good one too, but the singer does not sing in the quick shift but hums. But , the control and the melody still up there is fantastic.

shankar vaidyanathan
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Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by shankar vaidyanathan »

The question, as my Guru used to ask, is, "Just because you could hit that high note, should you really be going there?" He used to look for the musicality in human voice, and, if there is no melodic value and the attempt is just to demonstrate the voice's acrobatic range and ability, he advocated against it on the high side. By the same token, the ability to reach down to the mandhra and still lower notes appealed to him. In terms of a 2.5 or 3 octave span, the lower the singer can go, the better the effect on the listener.

My daughter, when she was younger, used to easily traverse up, above, and, beyond when she really want to grab attention. We didn't want to be in the same room, or, better yet, not in the same space or time while that happens!

SrinathK
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Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by SrinathK »

@harimau, You might have referred to Georgia Brown. But as of today, the widest range belongs to Tim Storms (11 octaves) with the lowest note at 0.189 Hz (7 octaves below the infrasound threshold :shock: ). But I wonder what's the point hitting a note no one can hear ...

In recorded music, these are the widest ranges available off the shelf

http://www.concerthotels.com/worlds-gre ... cal-ranges

Axl Rose's range is the widest here at 4.5 octaves among men and Mariah Carey among women with 5 octaves and 1 tone.

But we don't use things like vocal fry, falsetto, head voice or whistle register in our music. Take that away and the ranges of our best musicians are truly astonishing.

ganesh_mourthy
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Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Shankar Vaidyanathan

I have an anti thesis to what you say constructively.

There are three types of major instincts.

The first one is inherent. You dont develop it but it is developed in you. Some people find the scratching of something on a rough plane highly irritating . the scraping sound from the violin bow with excess wax or wrong spot is the same to me.

The second one is what you are influenced. The food , the taste buds, smell, etc. This is something you try to find similarity and then you start liking it. while mustard oil is somethign so palatable and liked in WB I cannot stand it. But , I got so used to Olive oil. the same with some Non veg smell. Though have not tasted, I am able to tolerate with the smell of chicken fry but not the fish fry.

The third is intelligent triggered instinct. It is a combination of influence and your aquired knowledge. When you say you cannot stand the high pitch , there are millions enjoying the alto , soprana. The high pitched western classical is indeed soothing to me. Some operas I have listened to is still lingering in mind. But many westerners cannot stand our oscillation singing. Honestly even I cannot when it goes wobbly.

But if are to talk about out of usual range and why should you do it which is unusual, then all the dance forms and sports are not part of our regular movement. I was watching a 20 min ball dance yesterday in youtuve and could not take my eyes off. But, none of the movement are part of our regular physical movement in day to day life.

To me it is a matter of adapting and we alter our instincts which is sometimes influenced, sometimes we develop for reasons, sometimes purely out of conformism.

shankar vaidyanathan
Posts: 108
Joined: 25 Jan 2014, 18:16

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by shankar vaidyanathan »

Ganesh Mourthy,

Thank you for the interesting perspectives. I am fully with you on your list of first two items. In fact I grit my teeth with screeching chalk boards/violins or run away from WB mustard oil! You may know that our Northern brethren sometimes use it as a hair grooming accessory! As to the third category of acquired taste/habit, I am unsure that it is on an intellectual conscious plane. To me, a non medical person, it seems that to some extent we may have genetic predisposition or natural bias to what eventually attracts us. You are correct that we all have our individual preferences and so shouldn't be generalizing. I also enjoy Operatic singing if done right by gifted artists. I do think that the perspective may be different if we are a listener or a performer. For example, a singer may be inclined to live within their natural comfortable range. We tend to drop our Shruthi a note as we age to comfortably hit the higher notes.

Thanks for the stimulating discussion.

vgovindan
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Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by vgovindan »

re : WB mustard oil -
Though this is not relevant to the main topic, I may bring to notice of the rasikas about the benefits for Mustard Oil. In regard to cooking, pickles made using this medium retain its original flavour and taste for long time - in some cases, years. In regard to its application as massage oil, it is my experience, being from ex-Armed Forces, that it is highly beneficial to the skin and as lubricant for joints. Persons from North India - particularly Jats and Sikhs use this oil invariably while bathing - that too early in the morning in the biting cold. I have been using this oil for bodily application on daily basis for the past 40 years. May be I have become insensitive to its odour. But the medicinal effects of this oil in its unrefined form (called kacchi ghani) is known only to those who have used it. Even now I recommend this application to those who have joint problems. All that one has to do is to apply a light film - one drop per part of the body - just before wiping with towel. Use it and feel the difference in the glow of your skin and agility of body. Yes, the clothes might get a little soiled, so what?

KNV1955
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Joined: 22 Oct 2012, 21:29

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by KNV1955 »

Can anyone match the range & breath control as in this attached video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzIRNtrtpi0

cacm
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Joined: 08 Apr 2010, 00:07

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by cacm »

There is a book from Italy which gives recipes for increasing the Range as well as sruti kattai (which I lent to a person who did not return it!) to 7.5 when I was exploring how S.G.Kittappa managed such a high pitch. Supposedly Pavarotti used this technique.....VKV


varsha
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Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by varsha »

Supposedly Pavarotti used this technique.....VKV
a very enjoyable interview
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HWmM46HbtE

varsha
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Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by varsha »

He used to look for the musicality in human voice, and, if there is no melodic value and the attempt is just to demonstrate the voice's acrobatic range and ability, he advocated against it on the high side. By the same token, the ability to reach down to the mandhra and still lower notes appealed to him. In terms of a 2.5 or 3 octave span
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/3dra29q ... uns_12.mp3

sweetsong
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Joined: 29 Nov 2009, 16:48

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by sweetsong »

Thank you Varsha ji and Ganesh Mourthy ji, for the beautiful videos.
I have heard Varmaji hit the lower Sa in G sruthi and some ridiculously
high notes too, a couple of times. Shankar Vaidyanathan ji's quote from
his guru sounded exactly like Varmaji, who normally doesn't show off
his vocal range just for the sake of showing off. Here is a short
clipping of him plumbing the depths, with Vid.S.Varadarajan on the violin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbLYBJvohrw

I have been introduced to at least a hundred amazing voices, thanks to
Varmaji. I don't wish to clutter this page, but here are a few.
He always says that he is interested in developing the tonal richness
or fullness of the timbre of the voice, even in the middle range, rather
than just try and do up or down, sounding nasal, piercing or harsh or rough.
We can easily understand why anyone would find Sher Khan the tiger's
voice amazing :)

Sher Khan The Tiger (George Sanders)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEvoKVrrhf4

Bobby Mc Ferrin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQqrf6CWgQc


Basso Profundo from Russia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WpD2Cspn6g

shankar vaidyanathan
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Joined: 25 Jan 2014, 18:16

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by shankar vaidyanathan »

Thank you, Varsha, and, sweetsong, for sharing Bade Gulam Ali Khan and Prince Rama Varma's recordings. My Hindusthani Guru made me a list of "must listen to" voices and Bade Gulam Ali Khan was among the top artists. We used to play his recordings and my Guru would explain the salient going ons. My Guru's thought was that there was so much to be learnt from the Great Masters. I listen to MDR a lot.

I have a question: without dropping natural Shruthi, what best practices are there in Carnatic vocal learning to add depth and sustainable "reach" to the Mandhra Sthayi and lower band for middle aged males?

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by SrinathK »

Being middle aged, it should be easier than when one is younger. KVN suggested singing mandara sthayi in the morning before the voice is warmed up (no tara sthayi at all till the voice is fully warmed up). One can also do all the usual exercises (singing a, e, u, m, n, N on one note). It takes time before the voice box adapts to reach lower and lower notes. One good tip is that as one is going down, one should imagine singing as though you're trying to hit higher notes instead. That corrects sub-conscious body language and maintains tone while going down the scale.

shankar vaidyanathan
Posts: 108
Joined: 25 Jan 2014, 18:16

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by shankar vaidyanathan »

Thank you, SrinathK, for sharing KVN's suggestion and also the tip. Very useful information.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by SrinathK »

cacm wrote: 05 Feb 2015, 22:52 There is a book from Italy which gives recipes for increasing the Range as well as sruti kattai (which I lent to a person who did not return it!) to 7.5 when I was exploring how S.G.Kittappa managed such a high pitch. Supposedly Pavarotti used this technique.....VKV
This is the technique :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh2H4wubJIY&t=1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4Uc5GmNTUo&t=2s

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by SrinathK »

SrinathK wrote: 03 Feb 2015, 23:04 Amazing to hear that whistle register hit with such clarity (It's not a true whistle, the sound actually comes from the vocal cords).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistle_register

Children can hit it all the time :twisted:

Coming to Carnatic Music, on a very good day, I've heard TMK (No, please everyone, remain calm :mrgreen: ) go from a G1 to a C5 and on one occasion an E5! This covers virtually the entire range from bass to high tenor. 3.75 Octaves! That still remains the widest I've heard.

The lowest note I've ever heard hit with power is a G1 by MDR (His lower Sa).

MSS : G2 to G5. Never used falsetto.

GNB : C1 to C4 (In one alapana), though in his younger days he could have probably gone to a D#4 when he was younger and his shruti was higher. Never used falsetto.

Yesudas : C1 to D4 (I'm thinking though there must have been some falsetto in those swaras)

Madurai Somu : I've heard the story of Lalgudi tuning down the mandara shadja string to match him once. But I haven't got values.

We don't get more because we aren't supposed to be using falsetto, head voice or whistle register in Indian music.

PS : For the reference, middle C (C4) is that of a male singer singing the Upper Sa at C (1 kattai).
Looking back, I realized I made a mistake in the ranges as middle C is C4. So the correct values are

GNB : C2 to C5, in his younger years, maybe up to D#5

Yesudas : C2 to D5

BMK : C2 to E5 (yeah, in one recording I've heard him go that high).

T R Mahalingam : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2klpOa4SlU (Don't know where his lowest note is) The highest note hit here is a C#5 in the Simhendramadhyamam and the lowest is a D3 for the Hindolam. I'd wager that he could go down to an A#2 with that voice (mandara gAndharam).

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by uday_shankar »

Some similar discussions from a while back...

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20697

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by SrinathK »

Speaking of evolution, I once asked TMK when he performed at IITM (must have been 2009 or 10), can't recall. He told me that if used correctly, the vocal range will continue to keep opening up over time and these breaks can be eliminated. He even said IIRC that on a really, really good day, he could push it to 4 octaves.

Now MDR was THE bass voice. Like the above thread (http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20697) says, he sang at G2, which meant that his range went from an unreal G1 to G4 at max. The only ideal instrument to match that pitch is a contrabass (or double bass)!

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by SrinathK »

For those who don't know what this C1, A4, G3, D4 is, it comes from the grand piano that has a range of 8 octaves. So the number represents the octave number and the note will have a particular frequency - A4 corresponds to 440 Hz

https://www.sciencebuddies.org/Files/34 ... img024.jpg

And on a side track, here's an interesting article on the highest notes hit by Lata Mangeshkar and Asha Bhosle :- https://mrandmrs55.com/2012/05/10/bolly ... est-notes/

Apparently, Lata has hit a C6 ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYr2P9ei8PI -- which is equivalent to a female singer singing in G (5 kattai) hitting the ati-tara sthayi madhyama.

srini_pichumani
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Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by srini_pichumani »

7 octaves + some (kosuru) with 88 keys... it is fascinating to watch a piano being tuned... I actually walked in to a common area at the U of M, Ann Arbor, when a piano tuner was doing the routine tune-up on a piano... he used consonance and dissonance (as in counting beats), seemingly in equal measure to tune the keys within and across octaves. I don't remember seeing a chromatic tuner with him at that time.

thenpaanan
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by thenpaanan »

shankar vaidyanathan wrote: 08 Feb 2015, 06:15 I have a question: without dropping natural Shruthi, what best practices are there in Carnatic vocal learning to add depth and sustainable "reach" to the Mandhra Sthayi and lower band for middle aged males?
As far as I know there is no special magic to it. In fact the real secret seems to be that singing should be no different just because you are going into the lower notes (or higher notes for that matter). We tend to focus solely on managing the voice when going up the octaves to avoid strain. But there is a similar challenge going down the scale as well -- in my own personal experience I observed that when I went to any note below AdhAra shadjam I let my voice apparatus "go", in the sense that I completely relaxed my vocal chords and as a result the voice box actually went to a different position. I could tell not only from the physical feeling but also from the fact that the quality of the voice changed. We may think that is ok because the voice sounds richer and more like MDR but it is an illusion. The vocal chords need to maintain a low but steady level of tension to sing easily. When you lose that tension it has to work harder to generate volume. Also what happens when you relax the voice so much is that the pointedness of the voice goes away and a listener finds it increasingly difficult to discern what note is being sung. Take most CM artists and see when they sing in the mantra sthAyi if you can tell the difference between the chatustruti dhavatam and shuddha dhaivatam in the singing. In most cases it will be hard to tell (even though we have no problem whatsoever in the madhya sthAyi in doing the same thing). You will hear a band of sound that does not allow you to differentiate. This is a consequence of relaxing too much in the lower register.

So what is one to do? To my best knowledge there are two things you can and should do. First just like you would do to get more range in the upper direction, to get more range in the lower direction you should go very incrementally. Start from you sweet spot where you think you sing the best and go down gradually and each time you progress down make sure to observe if your voice is changing either in sound or in the physical sensation. You should try to minimize the change at each step and only progress to the next note down after you have managed the existing notes in this way -- this way your voice will sound the same at the mantra pA as it does at the madhya pA. At no point should you change your natural sruthi just to make is possible to reach the low or high notes. It may seem the easy thing to do in the short term but your voice will be ruined in the longer term. The other thing to keep in mind is that as you go down you have to work harder to generate the same volume. Most CMusicians do not do this and as a result we can barely hear them when they are in the cellar. It is important to try to keep a uniform volume across the range and that means putting a little bit (not a lot) more pressure on your voice as you down in the scale to generate the same volume of sound.

Hope this helps.

-Thenpaanan
Last edited by thenpaanan on 29 Sep 2017, 10:44, edited 1 time in total.

thenpaanan
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Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by thenpaanan »

SrinathK wrote: 24 Sep 2017, 11:09 Apparently, Lata has hit a C6 ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYr2P9ei8PI -- which is equivalent to a female singer singing in G (5 kattai) hitting the ati-tara sthayi madhyama.
For those of us old enough, back in the days of text-only usenet newsgroups the inimitable Rajan Parrikar had pointed out this very instance of ultra-high singing from Lata M as also the fact that she was a singer trained in the Indian tradition singing in the ways of western operatic sopranos. In those days there was no Youtube so I had only heard the audio version of the song, but now I can see the video that goes with it as well.

-T

shankar vaidyanathan
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Re: The evolution of human voice range

Post by shankar vaidyanathan »

@Thenpanan: Thank you, Sir, for the guidance. I was remembering my HM Guru as I was reading your well thought out reply. Much appreciated!

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