OVK and Ravikiran Compositions - a new development

[vsuresh]

From Chitravina N Ravikiran's Facebook post today...

A very dear friend of mine informed me most amusingly yesterday that about 3-4 days ago someone had remarked in a public event in Chennai that he (or she) felt that I was trying to promote my own compositions as Oottukkadu Venkata Kavi's compositions
This of course proves that he/she knows about neither of us!! Let's get the record straight! (a) I have documented (self-written and dated) originals of my own 700 odd music-dance compositions from the time I was 11 which include operatic music-dance productions that most of you have seen in USA, Canada, Australia or India since 1990s. (b) I got to know about OVK only when I was about 18 and have endeavoured to unearth his works from the most authentic sources and share with the music world. (c) Though hundreds of his pieces are lost, we have managed to compile a list of about 600 of his works which have been meticulously listed in Bhargavi Balasubramanian's www.venkatakavi.org. (d) Over 300 of OVK's works were already in print and several dozens had been rendered in audio CDs by top musicians well before I was 18. (e) Less than 75 of mine are in print so far in Shri T K Govinda Rao's "Varna Sagaram", Dr B M Sundaram's "Varna Malika", Swati Soft's "Sada Sharanam" and Savita Narasimhan's Adityodayam. (f) OVK's inimitable compositional style in both Tamil and Sanskrit is unique and inimitable and I have shown how it is one of the 5 distinctive primary styles of composing in Carnatic. (g) But the more significant is OVK's class - my cumulative output of 700 pieces so far together cannot match even 7 of his - and this is not humility but just reality. (h) Last but not the least I neither like to receive credit for what is not mine nor do I like to willfully dispense it for what is mine

[arasi]

An extraordinarily endowed musician even from his childhood, a practitioner of music of a high quality for decades--that's Ravikiran. If he is to be accused of stealing from Venkatakavi!

Still, I remember many years ago how it was said glibly that someone else wrote all of Ambujam Krishna's songs for her which she claimed to be her own

The rumor mill chugs along, with the naysayers taking pleasure in feeding it

[Rsachi]

Please help me by citing the earliest recordings of OK compositions available - it seems to have been well before Sri Ravikiran made his mark.

Also are there any references to OVK made by people like Vasudevacharya, Papanasam Sivan, Tiger, Poochi Srinivasa Iyengar, etc.? Prof. Sambamoorthy? Just my ignorance has triggered these questions, nothing else. I do know Alai payude seems to have been rendered by Pithukuli Murugadas before 1960's.

[VK RAMAN]

There will always be doubting thomass' and their doubts can never be fully cleared. Just ignore or keep fighting all your life.

[rshankar]

Arasi, if I understood it correctly, it's the other way around- not that Sri Ravikiran has stolen Sri OVK's compositions, but that he's passing off his own compositions as Sri OVK's.
So, proving that Sri OVK was known prior to 1960s will only go so far in disproving this claim.
This issue keeps coming up every so often.

[arasi]

Ah, Ravi, thanks for correcting me. Was busy all day otherwise, and didn't quite get it, did I, in my rushing around mode

Apologies to Ravikiran for my incomprehension. It escaped me, even though I read his mentioning how all his seven hundred or so compositions weren't equal to seven of his.

Anyhow, the accusation seems a bit 'far-fetched' ?

[pattamaa]

toms, dicks and harrys don't have any serious work to do, thats why they end up doing such stupid things... best way to ignore them... Sri Ravikiran's work and composition will stand out for sure... and time will prove that..

[Rsachi]

Folks my questions still need your answers. I am not part of the intolerance debate and have the highest regard for Sri Ravikiran. As he has espoused the cause of OVK, my interest only increases.

[bhakthim dehi]

Personally I have no doubt regarding tge authencithy of Sri OVK krithis (at least the majority of the stock that we possess). But whether the tunes that we have is authentic or not is a question to be answered. The following are few evidences that favour my question.
Kalyana Rama: Is a krithi set to hamsanadham. Hqmsanadham shows its presence only through Sangraha Chudamani and it says this ragam has shatshruthi dhaivatham. Bantu reethi kolu too has this dhaivatham. Present version totally eschews this svaram; the exception being that of Smt Vedavallis version. Krishna gaanam, an authentic source of OVK krithis also eschews this svaram in the mentioned krithi. This leaves with two possibilities: Either the this krithi is later tuned of OVK is unaware of the tradition. I personally vote for the first possibilty.
Surati: The older version surati in not a just audava sampoorna ragam. It also has phrases like rgr, pdnd. The older versions of the compositions of Sri Thyagayyar and Sri Dikshithar attest this. Sadly, OVK s compositions lack any of these old phrases and is completely coherent with the current form.
Balahamsa: The traditional balahamsa has rmgr, srgm phrases. This is again evident in the krithis of Thyagayyar and Dikshithar. Rmgs is not allowed in this ragam. But the present balahamsa is mainly characterised by the phrase rmgs. Even OVK krithi in this ragam sport this phrase.
Based on these ffew evidences, I have a doubt that they are tuned by some contemporary musician and ve lost the origin as l tunes.
If Mr Ravikiran involves, the discussion can go in healthy direction.

[SrinathK]

I have absolutely no doubt about the amount of work that has gone in to unearth OVK's compositions -- really he had set a new bar as far as the composing goes. But melodically, ragas have been evolving quite a lot since his time -- so it's quite likely that the ragas used by OVK have also adapted themselves to more modern versions over time. Since the vast majority of them have been unearthed since the 20th century, it's likely that much of this retuning / rephrasing must have already occurred well before these compositions were unearthed.

@bhaktim dehi -- One must also say the same about a lot of the trinity compositions. But most of these ragas had settled into these forms by the 20th century itself so if there has been some re-tuning going on, I'd say it happened a long time ago.

It's also possible that songs for which the original tune has been lost may have been reset to more modern tunes like Annamacharya -- again it's likely that this has also happened well before their discovery. It's only in today's times where a composer can actually preserve his original tunes and upload his renditions on Youtube also in case of doubt.

To avoid another Swati Tirunal controversy, every part of the research work should be carefully documented and accounted for along with the sources.

This also opens another topic for discussion -- How many more composers are out there, still unknown to the world?

[harimau]

This also opens another topic for discussion -- How many more composers are out there, still unknown to the world?

Don't worry; the tup-tup artist will be singing them in his concerts.

Anyone for samba music?

[SrinathK]

Don't worry; the tup-tup artist will be singing them in his concerts.

Oh God. This one's getting older than the combined age of your species of panthera tigris. The tiger's fangs are getting rusty. Come up with a new original one that can do the rounds ...

[hnbhagavan]

Harimau cannot resist the temptation of bringing tup-tup artist into the discussion on any topic discussed in the forum!

[bhakthim dehi]

'One must also say the same about a lot of the trinity compositions. But most of these ragas had settled into these forms by the 20th century itself so if there has been some re-tuning going on, I'd say it happened a long time ago.'
This is what exactly I said. Atleast we can trace the compositions of Thyagayyar and Dikshithar through Valajapet notations and SSP respectively. This is not possible (?) with the krithis of OVK. In that case we cannot claimn the present music of OVK krithis to be authentic. Same is applicable to the krihis of Thyagayyar and Dikshithar. Our yesteryear musicians have changed the version, pace and sadly also the raga structure.

[bhakthim dehi]

'One must also say the same about a lot of the trinity compositions. But most of these ragas had settled into these forms by the 20th century itself so if there has been some re-tuning going on, I'd say it happened a long time ago.'
This is what exactly I said. Atleast we can trace the compositions of Thyagayyar and Dikshithar through Valajapet notations and SSP respectively. This is not possible (?) with the krithis of OVK. In that case we cannot claimn the present music of OVK krithis to be authentic. Same is applicable to the krihis of Thyagayyar and Dikshithar. Our yesteryear musicians have changed the version, pace and sadly also the raga structure.[/color]

[SrinathK]

Seeking how Carnatic Music might have sounded 300 years ago is now a lost cause. Compositions of all composers are subject to the evolutionary process that ragas have been through.

But hang on, we should know the details of how these tunes are being brought out today before coming to any hasty conclusions -- how were they preserved for song long, etc.. Look at the pluses, what we have today are some remarkable compositions like his Navavarnams and Saptarathnams. The site lists around 590 compositions for which audio is also available for many of them.

One of them in particular makes excellent tiger bait.

[Suryasriram]

Seeking how Carnatic Music might have sounded 300 years ago is now a lost cause. Compositions of all composers are subject to the evolutionary process that ragas have been through.

But hang on, we should know the details of how these tunes are being brought out today before coming to any hasty conclusions -- how were they preserved for song long, etc.. Look at the pluses, what we have today are some remarkable compositions like his Navavarnams and Saptarathnams. The site lists around 590 compositions for which audio is also available for many of them.

One of them in particular makes excellent tiger bait.

What is meant by tiger bait? Which composition do you refer to?

And, who is tup-tup artist?

(Sorry, I am new here. )

[Ponbhairavi]

I think we have to keep one thing in mind:the compositions of Thyagaraja and others of the Trinity have come down to us through regular syshya parampara of pur e sangeetha vidwans.Venkata kavi had no syshya parampara.More importantly his compositions have come down to us through bhajanai sampradaya bhagavathars or dancers. In that lineage it is quite possible that the ragas might have got slightly altered as in their divyanamam they focussed essentially on the bhava content more than the music grammar.. On the other hand great pure sangeetha vidwans of the past ( till probably the advent of MMI ) were not much favourably disposed towards his compositions . Tamil language and the brand of " bhajanai " paatu might have had some prejudicial effect. (In the case of Tamil trinity they had the patronage of tamil poets and pandits. Unfortunately for venkatakavi , he was orphan both on the literary side and musical side until he has now been resussitated to his rightful place by a maestro of the calibre of sri Ravikiran.

[SrinathK]

Listen to the krithis on this page : http://www.venkatakavi.org/ovk/audio-video.html

[bhakthim dehi]

In whatsoever the have been brought or preserved, change is a change. We can accept certain change in the versions like addition or deletion of sangathis (personally I wont accept that too; but that is unavoidable), but not a change on the svaram taken by a ragam or total lose of phrases resulting in total disfigurement of a ragam.
I too accept that these krithis are preserved by an oral tradition. But being in this era with availability of old treatises, its highly essential for us to introspect and implement the same,though it is close to impossible. This is the real respect and homage that we pay to our composers, not a mere mechanical rendition of their krithis.

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Is this the reward one could give to a person who has been relentlessly attempting to unearth treasurs in the field of south Indian classical music? Ravikiran has been thoroughly objective and transparent in his attempts in sourcing OVK kritis and he has been closely in touch with the descendants of OVK for authenticity and the right Paataanthara. Also he has been utilising every forum to put forward his opinion and eliciting views of rasikas.

[bhakthim dehi]

@Sivaramakrishnan
No doubt that OVK compositions are treat to listen and its really a good attempt to unearth them. It is also true that we are going to listen this prevalent version and enjoy even after knowing that all the krithis that we hear(I mean the misical content only) is authentic. But, an analytical brain will not stop with that. The quest gets intense especially when we give importance to the composer. I ve cited few queries which trouble my mind. If I am going get a solution, I will be much more involved to dwell into the krithis.

[SrinathK]

Is this the reward one could give to a person who has been relentlessly attempting to unearth treasurs in the field of south Indian classical music? Ravikiran has been thoroughly objective and transparent in his attempts in sourcing OVK kritis and he has been closely in touch with the descendants of OVK for authenticity and the right Paataanthara. Also he has been utilising every forum to put forward his opinion and eliciting views of rasikas.

Yes it is painful to read the opinions of those who don't know anything about the subject, and especially if such accusations are put forward by the people close to you, but the rumor mills form an industry that never runs out of business.

But there is a difference between the rumor mongers' take on it and the curiosity of a researcher -- the second one will listen.

For me I don't have any doubt over the compositions at all, though I know it is only a question of when the rumor mills will start this talk. I have also wondered for a very long time how much OVK's tunes have also been affected by the process of change that has affected all other composers in this system. I also confess that it was OVK's music that first opened my awareness to music beyond the time of the trinity.

It's just that I keep seeing how ragas keep evolving -- less than a hundred years ago, Begada had phrases that aren't around today -- and I'll tell you that even the renditions of the Begada varnam have slightly adjusted their phrasing accordingly. Still, almost all of it is intact -- I cannot make a sweeping statement that the way the varnam is sung today is no longer what it is -- the change is actually not as much as what that statement might suggest. But yes, it will take you by surprise if you have heard the modern day version of the raga and then listen to someone like Veena Dhannamal or ARI singing a phrase out of the blue which doesn't exist today. (I have read a review of a lec dem on the Begada raga on this very forum and it sounds like this raga has had a wild ride over the centuries).

So we could get into a debate on what is historically correct, but with no recording technology available in the previous centuries, it won't do much except to tell us how ragas changed over time -- and I don't know if every custodian was like Brinda & Mukta when it came to keeping things exactly as they had been taught. Therefore, we have to unearth what we've got today.

In this to know that 590 compositions of OVK are at least known, with many of them appearing in recent recordings, is huge -- it's way more than what I fathomed. That's more than what we have of Dikshitar, Syama Sastri and Swati Tirunal and probably the number compositions of Papanasam Sivan or Annamacharya that are being sung on stage.

[vsuresh]

Listen to the krithis on this page : http://www.venkatakavi.org/ovk/audio-video.html

Also watch this gem of a lec-dem by Shri. Ravikran on the OVK Saptaratnas and their comparison to the Tyagaraja Pancharatnams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWbvJtHh26k

Shri. Ravikiran has also discussed 230+ compositions in his book Oottukkadu Venkata Kavi - Life & Contrubutions

[Rasikapriya2013]

This also opens another topic for discussion -- How many more composers are out there, still unknown to the world?

Don't worry; the tup-tup artist will be singing them in his concerts.

Anyone for samba music?

If only Amir Khan were to see the level of personal bashing going on in the name of music, he would understand how TOLERANT we as Indians are!

[SrinathK]

OVK's inimitable compositional style in both Tamil and Sanskrit is unique and inimitable and I have shown how it is one of the 5 distinctive primary styles of composing in Carnatic.

5 styles of composing? Could anyone elaborate?

[Suryasriram]

OVK's inimitable compositional style in both Tamil and Sanskrit is unique and inimitable and I have shown how it is one of the 5 distinctive primary styles of composing in Carnatic.

5 styles of composing? Could anyone elaborate?

According to Chitravina Ravikiran, there are five styles of composing:
Draksha Pakam - Grape Style - Tyagaraja - as easy as eating grapes
Kadali Pakam - Banana Style - Shyama Sastri - you have to peel off the banana's peel to eat it
Narikela Pakam - Coconut Style - Dikshitar - you have to first remove the fiber, then break it and then cut out the coconut pieces, but very tasty
Panasa Pakam - Jackfruit Style - Kshetrajna - very difficult to remove the skin, and very sticky to cut into small parts, but very delicious
Amra Pakam - Mango Style - Venkatakavi - equally delicious in whichever way you want to eat and whatever you eat - with skin, without skin or the seed also!

[PKSundar]

In any ‘crime’ one always questions the motive. What could be RK’s motive to resort to cheap tricks like passing off his own compositions as OVK’s? Fame? He is already world famous- famous enough for a city in US declare one day as Melharmony day, famous enough to be hailed as the world greatest slide player. Is there any need for Tendulkar to play disguised as Bradman to gain fame?!
Edison said “Genius is ninety nine percent perspiration and one percent inspiration”. I was a witness to the ‘one percent’ of Ravi Kiran when he was not even five years old as he nonchalantly answered intricate questions on Carnatic music thrown by people at a private gathering. His father had a tough time restraining the child from doing hand-stands while fielding questions with aplomb. It was clearly a genius at work.
The whole world is witness to the other ‘ninety nine percent’. His day seems to be made of 30 hours as he teaches, composes, plays, researches, lectures and demonstrates various aspects of Carnatic music. Leave alone OVK. Hasn’t he achieved enough in the world of music?
RK is not some wannabe artist who necessarily has to imitate a master’s painting to remain relevant. I understand that such things used to happen in literary works in the past. Even then I fail to see how such an artist can gain fame if his name is going to remain in the shadows. Nor is RK a failed artist who has to resort to such devious means to derive vicarious pleasure out of having his compositions masquerading as OVK’s.
The accusation is the ‘most unkindest cut’ of all indeed.

[harimau]

In another thread on Pre-Trinity composers (you can find it in the Kutcheri Reviews section), Gayathri Girish's lec-dem was discussed. A question there was why Oothukkadu Venkata Kavi was not on her list.

Her answer was that no corroborative evidence of OVK contemporaneous with his life time or shortly thereafter exists. Thus it is difficult to include him in her lec-dem.

Now I have put the cat among the pigeons!

[chitravina ravikiran]

Greetings to rasikas. Before I respond to some queries about OVK posted here, I wanted to clarify that my FB post was to merely to highlight the simple fact that OVK and me are two different composers from different eras with clearly distinctive styles (and doubtlessly vastly varying levels)! I also wanted to establish that our works are as well documented in appropriate places. Further, OVK was well known much before I was born and luminaries including Prof T V Subba Rao, GNB, Semmangudi and Kanchi Paramacharya have been eloquent about his brilliance.

I also wish to clarify that I have not felt the least bit offended by speculation that some of these are my works. But it is only right that the music world knows a few clear differences between me and OVK which is the sole reason that I am listing a few points (despite my hesitation to talk about my own works).

• Even though I have been composing from age 11, my main idols were the Trinity. I was inspired to compose a krti (in Surati) and a mangalam (in Shree) collectively on the trinity and an exclusive piece on Tyagaraja (in Nattaikkuranji) on the occasion of his 150th year aradhana.

• Some of my early attempts at composing subconsciously drew from simple compositions of Tyagaraja and Dikshitar in both form and content. It is only too obvious that their masterpieces are beyond reach for most composers!

• While I stand second to none in my admiration for OVK or Shyama Shastri, I have never composed anything remotely close to their styles. Even making a conscious attempt to do so would be an insult to their sublime brilliance though a lyrical phrase here or a sangati there may reflect my internalisation of their (or other composers') works as a student of music.

• I have been an admirer of pre-trinity composers including Kshetragna and have composed a couple of minor padams

• I have also cherished my interactions with contemporary innovators such as Shri Lalgudi Jayaraman, Dr Balamuralikrishna and some of my tillanas, varnams or krtis may reflect this. Even though I was incredibly fortunate to have been blessed directly by Shri Papanasam Sivan, Shri Shuddhananda Bharati, Shri Periasami Tooran, Smt Ambujam Krishna as well as Shri Tanjavur Shankara Iyer, my compositions will have no more reflections of their works than their (or their tune-smiths') overall classical style.

• I have been a fan of languages and hence my passion to attempt pieces in Tamil, Sanskrit, Telugu and rarely even in Hindi/Kannada.

• A few of my compositional experiments include 35-tala set of compositions (in 1997), bhasha-malika composition, tala-malika/dvigati tillana/chaturashra tishra tillana, thematic svarakshara pieces

By now, it will be clear that OVK's pieces are significantly different from the above aspects.

As to excellent questions about the tunes of his compositions especially in ragas like Hamsanadam, Balahamsa, equally good answers have been provided by other posters here. I'd also refer rasikas to the fairly lengthy assessment of OVK's melodic contributions:

http://www.venkatakavi.org/ovk/sample-s ... elody.html

Points made in the initial paras there would show why it is almost impossible to assert which composer envisioned the raga in which way (except in broad terms like between Dikshitar and other schools). It is equally futile to speculate as to whether X was more correct than Y in an empirical sense since we have multiple versions of the same raga in different schools or sometimes even within a school.

Just to clarify, my version of Bantureeti has D3 as a rare phrase (and I have also employed D3 in my krti and tillana in Hamsanadam as well). But the majority of the versions do not. Nor does Tanjavur Shankara Iyer's composition in this raga.

With neither Tyagaraja's nor OVK's original audio or notation available, one can only speculate if either composer used it or some other grammar conscious disciple or latter day musician inserted (or removed) it. As I don't want to deviate too from the topic here, I have started another thread on such issues with dozens of examples.

I also refer readers to:

http://www.venkatakavi.org/ovk/index.php/ragas-cluster

http://www.venkatakavi.org/ovk/index.php/talas-used

[chitravina ravikiran]

Stimulating discussions such as the treatment of ragas like Balahamsa and Hamsanadam by different composers, musicologists & musicians and speculation as to who initiated or followed what, who did not and who is right etc raises more questions than answers.

Given the paucity of first hand notations of Indian composers (unlike their Western Classical counterparts) and the diversity of schools and styles, varying versions of ragas and krtis is almost the norm than exception here. In this scenario, it is downright dangerous to speculate as to who knew or didn't know what, who was right or who wasn't as examples (like Hamsanadam in the OVK thread) and the ones below can easily show.

Dayajoochutakidi in Ganavaridhi (which Mudicondan Venkatarama Iyer used to sing with the grammatically more accurate R3) while the Walajapet School including my guru Brindamma) would sing as a janyam of 28/29 with R2 and both N2 and N3. So also Hindolam, Saramati, Hindolavasantam etc which the my guru's school renders with D2 while several others opt for D1 (some of you may have heard Brindamma's Samaja vara gamana with D2).

Dhanammal's school version of Mamava pattabhirama of MD was jokingly cited by none other than Ramnad Krishnan as the ideal guide for anyone who wanted to learn Madhyamavati Since the school is renowned for their authenticity, would one be wrong in wondering if MD probably composed it that way and other musicians have violated that spirit by singing it wholly in Manirangu?

There is little correlation between the Arohana-Avarohana of Devakriya in the Tyagaraja school and his own Nati mata marachitivo (which is vastly different to MD's Shree guruguha in Devakriya (which is the same scale as Shuddhasaveri).

The same holds good for many of Dikshitar's compositions. Would one speculate that T and MD were unaware of scale and sequence?

Can one conclusively prove who is more right between the composer and the theoretician who wrote the scale or lakshana in some treatise? Did the composer intentionally change the contours of the raga? Did someone else do it? If so, is the someone who changed it back to the grammatically more acceptable version right or wrong? Or did the theoretician get it wrong and freeze an incorrect grammar for posterity?

The final obvious question is: between two theory books with vast fundamental differences between them, which is right and which is wrong?

I can list hundreds of examples but the point should be obvious. It is dangerous to speculate or judge with a bunch of theory books. A point which Brindamma eloquently made in a rare lec-dem.

Ragas evolve with times as musicians refine and sometimes define them.

Irrespective of the composer, I have always gone by the raga as I have known it today, based on the majority of precedents of great masters (except for songs learnt from impeccable sources like Brindamma). This happened even in 1700s as is evident from variants between the older school that MD consciously followed vs the ones that almost everyone else opted for.

In this context, my refinements of OVK is no more nor less than what most quality musicians (or my humble self) effected on the works of any composer, if we felt the situation called for it. However, I have always strongly advocated that any refinement should be minimal and based on only musical necessity and not totalitarian or based on stylistic imposition, altering the very spirit of the raga/work.

[kvchellappa]

A living organism, language and form of art evolve and adapt. There is nothing like yesterday's form was gold.

[bhakthim dehi]

It is very heartening to see Sri.Ravikiran responding to the queries amidst his busy schedule.

Points made in the initial paras there would show why it is almost impossible to assert which composer envisioned the raga in which way (except in broad terms like between Dikshitar and other schools). It is equally futile to speculate as to whether X was more correct than Y in an empirical sense since we have multiple versions of the same raga in different schools or sometimes even within a school.

I feel it is possible to envision their view of a particular raga if we look into the old treatises. We very well know that Sri.Thyagaraja swamy and Sri.Muthusvamy Dikshithar belongs to the school of Venkatamakhin. Almost his system of raga lakshanam was followed by Shahaji and Tulaja. The raga lakshanam given by Sri. Subbarama dikshithar also follows that of Tulaja (with few variations at some places). This shows that te tradition created by Venkatamakhin was closely followed even during the time of Trinity. We cannot deny the authenticity of Subbarama Dikshithar and hence deviation from this norm can be considered to be a variant/mutated version and an original one.
With respect to Thyagaraja svamy, we have got the manuscripts of Valajapet school(I mean that of direct disciples). The authenticity of Valajapet manuscripts was proved beyond doubt by Prof. Sambamurthy. The raga lakshanam of Thyagarajas songs given in Valajapet manuscript colosely follows that of Tulajas and SSPs version. This is applicable only to the ragas which find its mention in the Tulajas treatise.

Just to clarify, my version of Bantureeti has D3 as a rare phrase (and I have also employed D3 in my krti and tillana in Hamsanadam as well).

You incorporating D3 in your tillana shows your knowledge, adherence and respect towards our tradition.

Conclusion of my abovesaid extended discussion is twofold:
1. that the older bygone versions were all alike.
2. we can predict how our composers would have sung (with respect to raga lakshanam) is somewhat predictable.
It should have been the same for OVKs krithis also. So any variation from the normal is considered to be a variation which is brought about by some/many musicians; reason being unknown.

I have few queries and it will be of much use if you can answer the same:
1. Didn't you get a query in your mind when you play / listen to the version of Kalyana rama?
Didn't you compare with your version of Bantu reethi which has D3?
2. To my knowledge OVK was not lucky (or lucky enough?) to have many disciples and Needamangalam Krishnamurthy Bhagavathar inherited these
treasures from his ancestors. In that case, do you know or have come across any other school/disciples possessing his compositions?
In that case have you seen those notations?

I think this will enhance our knowledge on OVKs compositions.

[Ponbhairavi]

In literature it is said இலக்கியத்தில் இருந்து தான் இலக்கணம். இலக்கியத்திற் காக இலக்கணமே தவிர இலக்கணத்திற்காக இலக்கியம் இல்லை.

[VK RAMAN]

We can be in memory lane or we can be in reality lane; the choice is in each one of us. Time and change will not wait for us.

[bhakthim dehi]

The question is not regarding the composers. I have given evidence on earlier posts that both MD and Thyagaraja svamy followed the same tradition and my evidence also shows that they didn't create any new tradition; rather only followed what they have acquired and the music that was prevalent. OVK , considering to be pre trinity composer should have followed the same.
The query in hand is whether the musical form of OVK krithis have been changed or not.
Umpteen number of examples can be given for change in the version of the krithis of Trinity between schools. One of the reason for these many variants was bizarre naming of the ragas just by following a single treatise. This issue was discussed in MAjournals several times in the past.
Following the present corrupted pattern naming it as a reality or trying to resurrect the lost old days, at least to little possible extent is up to an individual. But always an attempt must be made to realise that these changes were brought in by other later musicians. It is also essential to look into the old treatises for both a musician and musicologist , rather than concluding lakshana is important than lakshya.
Only by repeated analysis and rational, unbiased understanding of the lakshana given in the old treatises, raga svarupa will be fully expressed and this is the only way of paying homage to our great composers. Not by mere mechanical rendition of their krithis or observing a week or a day in a year.

[chitravina ravikiran]

Very informative points. But we need to examine a few more areas:

We very well know that Sri.Thyagaraja swamy and Sri.Muthusvamy Dikshithar belongs to the school of Venkatamakhin. Almost his system of raga lakshanam was followed by Shahaji and Tulaja.

If so, how would we explain the drastic difference between T and MDs versions in the examples I gave earlier as well as numerous other ragas? Including their approach to the 72 melakartas?

we have got the manuscripts of Valajapet school(I mean that of direct disciples).

To the best of my knowledge, these are a small subset of his compositions.

The authenticity of Valajapet manuscripts was proved beyond doubt by Prof. Sambamurthy.

Even granting that, does the absence of manuscripts invalidate the Umaiyalpuram or Tillaisthanam or Andhra Schools?

Conclusion of my above said extended discussion is twofold:
1. that the older bygone versions were all alike.

We have scores of examples to prove that not only are these unalike but even versions within one school is quite unalike be it T or MD. I have myself learnt more than one version of several songs such as Morabettite (Todi), Dayajoochutakidi (Ganavaridhi), Sukhi evvaro (Kanada), Samajavaragamana (Hindolam) etc.

2. we can predict how our composers would have sung (with respect to raga lakshanam) is somewhat predictable.

From above, we can clearly see that it is impossible to predict beyond very rough surmises. Further, as I have showed in the other thread (Speculation), there are literally thousands of imprints on most of these compositions. It is a well known reality that most of MDs krtis have been 'Tyagarajised' over the years. In short, the more number of performing and composing disciples the less the predictability - unless they are of a temperament like Veena Dhanammal and Brindamma.

1. Didn't you get a query in your mind when you play / listen to the version of Kalyana rama?
Didn't you compare with your version of Bantu reethi which has D3?

No, for the simple reason that the majority of versions of Bantureeti I had heard did not have D3! Hamsanadam is not an exception to vivadi notes like D3 being eschewed or minimised. Popular examples are Nattai where D3 is more in books than in reality. How do we judge composers in this case?

I have not come across any other active school of OVK and his descendants have spoken eloquently about how OVK shunned any publicity and was perpetually immersed in a divine plane all the time. But several of his descendants were considered to be distinguished musicians including his nephew, Kattu Krishna Iyer, who is said to have been a royal artiste in King Amarasimha's Court (Tanjore). I have written elsewhere about how Paruttiyur Krishna Shastrigal (1815-1910) was acknowledged as an expert on OVK's compositions but am not sure who his sources were.

To summarise, versions of ragas have been different in the classical era and continue to be, despite (even respectable) treatises favouring one or the other.

[chitravina ravikiran]

I have given evidence on earlier posts that both MD and Thyagaraja svamy followed the same tradition and my evidence also shows that they didn't create any new tradition;

As I have said in the other thread, how would this statement account for the fact that numerous ragas are different in T and MD's compositions?

In short, be it T, MD, OVK or even Shyama Shastri (whose manuscripts of lyrics I have seen when I performed in his descendant's house), very few notations are available. Change has been an inevitable reality, even in the case of living composers like Tanjavur Shankara Iyer. What can we expect it in classical era compositions? A multitude of versions do exist for many songs/ragas. Those who diligently included vivadi swaras like R3 or D3 were exceptions to the rule but do we know for certain if they followed a composer or some musicologist?

Judging which version is authentic based on books can be a dangerous exercise as it presumes a blind trust on the ability of the author - something that even scholars such as Prof S R Janakiraman wouldn't recommend! I have a tremendous respect for Subbarama Dikshitar but his raga lakshanas are not followed by Tyagaraja or many other composers. For instance, do we see the N2 mentioned for Saveri in SSP in any composition of T or even MD in most versions? Only Brinda school used to render Shri Rajagopala this way.

While scholars specialise in sorting out which are authentic, performers mainly follow their gurus or other legends who have inspired them.

In an ideal world, performers should still place at least 10-15% stress on the musicological or theoretical aspects of what they present and scholars should at least be able to practically demonstrate at least 40-50% of their theories in order to be convincing (but this is another topic altogether!)

[munirao2001]

Reality is centrality for rasothpathi and rasanubhuti, pleasure of aesthetics and emotions at first and rarest of the rare, bliss (blissful, moments) for art form with lakshya and lakshanam, for oneself and universal self in practice or its rasikatvata, rapturous listening. Lakshanam's ideal is capturing and encapsulating the abstract aesthetic in lakshya through rules of grammar, documenting, enabling recall pleasure of the original creativity in its re creativity. Higher ideal of lakshanam to enable new insights, original creativity with the gained discipline,mastery, either in strict conformance or non conformance, justified, its appreciation, its acceptance and its endorsement, with established lakshana for its practice.

Reality is manodharma, sense of mind in imagination and creativity built on the edifice of both kalpita and kalpana. Mind in observation, introspection, inference on the values of the great compositions enabling discovery of new ideas, resulting in new ragas, new compositions and melodies or ornamentation, its establishment is also the reality. In the practice of Classical Music, as a performing fine art, value additions and value deterioration are both reality and universal.

Speculation is only on the merits, demerits, values of practices and experiences with motivation for self fulfillment or in few extreme cases, self aggrandizement/gratification. Sruti and Smriti Vedanta experience are also reflected in lakshya, karna parampara and lakshana manuscripts or texts, published. Just like various identified recensions of Veda, recensions on lakshanas is in the public domain of knowledge. Established authority's speculation gains the image and identity of reality but with relevance to its time, temporal. Inquiry, questioning, challenging, establishment of truth only ends the speculation and the mirage of its image and authority. In ending the speculation, establishing the reality, reality of rasothpathi and rasanubhuti, afresh or anew.

munirao2001

[bhakthim dehi]

We very well know that Sri.Thyagaraja swamy and Sri.Muthusvamy Dikshithar belongs to the school of Venkatamakhin. Almost his system of raga lakshanam was followed by Shahaji and Tulaja.


If so, how would we explain the drastic difference between T and MDs versions in the examples I gave earlier as well as numerous other ragas? Including their approach to the 72 melakartas?

The answer is very simple. All these changes can be attributed to the later musicians. Let me cite few examples. Entha muddo is sung in Bindumalini. But Late Dr.T.Srinivasaraghavan used to sing this krithi with kakali nishadam, maiking it as a janya of Suryakantham. He felt this version is more expressive than the version in Bindumalini!!. This is also the case with sattaleni in Naganandhini. The above mentioned musicican used to sing only in Samantha!!.
Pahi rama dhutha is given only as Vasantha varali in the manuscripts of Veena Kuppaier. But sung in Shadvidhmargini now!!
Nagumonu , change to the now prevalent by Musiri Subramanya Iyer and the addition of cascade of sangathis in Vathapi Ganapathim by Mahavaidyanadhayyer is known.
Thyagayyar has composed in ragas in both the mela systems. Examples include Vasanthabhairavi-Vakulabharanam, Karaharapriya-Sri, Kedaragola-Harikambhodhi, Navaneetham-Nabhomani. Though we didn't gei to see other pairs, this very well indicate he is aware of both the systems.

we have got the manuscripts of Valajapet school(I mean that of direct disciples).


To the best of my knowledge, these are a small subset of his compositions.

The corpus constitutes of 200-250 compositions. Its an approximation. It can go more than this too. I don't think this is a small number.

The authenticity of Valajapet manuscripts was proved beyond doubt by Prof. Sambamurthy.


Even granting that, does the absence of manuscripts invalidate the Umaiyalpuram or Tillaisthanam or Andhra Schools?

I never said Valajapet disciples were only loyal and only their vesion is reliable. When we want to see the change that has happened, only if get the notation of direct disciple, it makes sense. I never had the opportunity to examine the manuscripts of Umayalapuram Krishna Bhagavathar-Sundara bhagavathar ,Tillaisthanam Rama Iyengar or the direct disciples belonging to he Andhra schools. Hence I mentioned only about the Valajapet manuscripts.

Conclusion of my above said extended discussion is twofold:
1. that the older bygone versions were all alike.


We have scores of examples to prove that not only are these unalike but even versions within one school is quite unalike be it T or MD. I have myself learnt more than one version of several songs such as Morabettite (Todi), Dayajoochutakidi (Ganavaridhi), Sukhi evvaro (Kanada), Samajavaragamana (Hindolam) etc.

I think my first response in this post will answer this query too. I ll explain the second part. MD and Thyagaraja svamys songs were dissimilar.
Raka sashivadana in Takka: I have heard versions of MLV, Sudha Raghunathan(belonging to GNB school), ArunaSairam and TNRajarathnam Pillai. All were alike with a few variations. In all the versions the pallavi runs for 2 avarthanams (raka and intha which is prosododically right) and charanam starts with panchamam. Can a charanam start with an alpa svaram?
Intersetingly, I have heard a musician from Karnataka wherein the pallavi runs for only 1 avarthanam and the charanam starts with madhyamam. It also has phrases like rmgs, mrgs. This is the same given I the Valajapet manuscripts too. This version sounds alike to the MD krithi sundaramurthimaashrayami.
Second example is Ennalu tirikedi in Malavasri. This song is notated in the Valajapet manuscripts and also printed in the book Rare krithis of Thyagaraja by Sri.Subba Rao. This version of Malavasri is similar to a padam by Kadigai Mukku pulavar in SSP and also has all the phrases given for Malasri in Tulajas Sangita Saramrta and SSP.
Third example is the phrases srs and pns in Anandbhairavi. These phrases do not find in the krithis of Thyagaraja (prevalent versions) but seen in the manuscripts (Neeke teliyaka). This song is also printed in the book Thyagaraja Hrudayam by Sri. KV.Srinivasa Iyengar. The version remains the same.
I hope this will prove that we have lost the original version of many songs of Thyagaraja svamy and the original version must have been similar with MD .

1. Didn't you get a query in your mind when you play / listen to the version of Kalyana rama?
Didn't you compare with your version of Bantu reethi which has D3?
No, for the simple reason that the majority of versions of Bantureeti I had heard did not have D3! Hamsanadam is not an exception to vivadi notes like D3 being eschewed or minimised.

I am amused that you didn't get this query.

Popular examples are Nattai where D3 is more in books than in reality. How do we judge composers in this case?

There are versions of Jagadanandakaraka with dhaivatham. Similarly, MD krithis were all notated with dhaivatham in SSP indicating the mistake lies only with the musician.

To summarize OVK or Trinity or any pre-trinity composer has adhered to the tradition that they have inherited and not changed, though created new ragas on their own.
Its only due to fewmusicians of the past who knowingly or unknowingly have changed the version.

[bhakthim dehi]

For instance, do we see the N2 mentioned for Saveri in SSP in any composition of T or even MD in most versions? Only Brinda school used to render Shri Rajagopala this way.

Sri. KV.Srinivasa Iyengar in his Thyagaraja Hrudayam has mentioned that Saveri was used to be sung with kaisiki nishadham and sadharana gandharam by purvikas. But it is not followed now. Tis he has written in the year 1921. So we have an another source Saveri had the lakshana mentioned in SSP.
Definitely the disciples only follow their gurus and no-one, including me cannot except the musicians to sing given in the various old treatises. But the point here, we must always admit the raga lakshanam has been changed from the period of Trinity and we are not the followers of our tradition in a strict sense.
In medicine, history is always recorded and all the present day practitioner are much aware about the past. This is mainly done for us not to deviate much from the past and to improvise ourselves within the domain established. Similarly, history of old versions must be unearthed and preserved, atleast not practiced.

[bhakthim dehi]

I request the moderator to merge this thread with speculation and reality thread.

[Suryasriram]

Would like to ask Sri Ravikiran sir a question:

The Saptaratna Kritis as notated by yourself in your book, are slightly different in a few kritis like Bhajanamrta, Balasaramurali and Madhava Hrdi Khelini, and vastly different in the others viz. Aganita Mahima, Alavadennalo, and Jatadhara Shankara, when compared to the notations published by the disciples of Sri Needamangalam Krishnamurthy Bhagavatar, in Sri Krishna Ganam. (Since I have not learnt Sundara Nandakumara, I do not know about its notations. And I understand the two extra charanams in Jatadhara Shankara were recently discovered and published.)

So, why is there such a lot of difference among the swaras of these kritis?

P.S. I am in no way pointing fingers on anybody, it is just a huge query which I had when I learnt the kritis, which was difficult since the notations in both books didn't tally.

[SrinathK]

Just for those who might not grasp the gist of why this discussion has erupted in the first place refer to the links below :

http://guruguha.org/wp/?p=317
http://guruguha.org/wp/?p=243

The prevailing opinion is that Thyagaraja and Diskhitar composed as per the Sangraha Chudamani and the Venkatamakhin schools respectively. However, there is also a body of research that claims that the Sangraha Chudamani is actually a work of later fabrication some 40 years after the passing of Thyagaraja and the Walajapet school believed that many of his krithis were tampered with on the basis of what was in this book.

Not only this, it is also believed that the modern melakartha system expanded to it's full set of 72 ragas, fully separating from the asampoorna system of Dikshitar as a result of this very process.

And then you have all those differences between the schools -- just take a look at what happened to Kana Kana Ruchira in Varali because of the superstition that it should not be taught...

Then the next question would be to what extent OVK's tunes have also been influenced by the developments that happened in CM in the late 19th century.

Since my knowledge of music history is very little, I have just summarized what I found in the links. I have a lot of reading to do... But all I can say is that if all this is true, then what we presently call as tradition(s) are no older than about a hundred and fifty years.

But what do we do? There was no recording facility until the 20th century, and anything before that technically belongs in the DARK AGES, where things ran rampant, for the better or the worse, which was then (rather ironically) passed down as tradition (sorry traditionalists ).

You could even argue that it is in fact the presence of recordings and easy information available today that has caused Carnatic music to stabilize to where it is right now.

There's nothing we can do about it now, or ... -- maybe someone will come up who will resurrect the "Dark Saveri".

[kvchellappa]

Thanks. It was interesting to read. I was struck by, 'India has forgotten more music than other countries have created.'

[bhakthim dehi]

Nice post Srikanth

[munirao2001]

Let us be clear. Tradition is not sampradaya. Sampradaya, is subject to changes with the value perceptions of the practitioners. The wealth of knowledge has to be enriched to achieve the excellence, the tradition. Sampradaya and Styles with value additions celebrate the tradition, enriching, enabling and establishing the art form and its greatness for learning, practicing and appreciation. Conformance and non conformance is related with Sampradaya and Styles only, which are rooted in Speculation and not to the Tradition. Established art form demands conformance to the excellence, its core strength and values, is rooted in Reality, ending speculation gaining knowledge and its successful practices.

munirao2001

[Ponbhairavi]

It is a big surprize for me that OVK cannot be considered as a pre trinity composer as there is no contemporaneous evidence.

[bhakthim dehi]

Mistake is on my side. I should have made it as OVK or Trinity or any other pre trinity composer. I think it is clear now.

[kvchellappa]

What will be the Indian word for tradition?