Why HM sounds sweeter

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#201 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 16 Jun 2020, 21:56 Smt.MS, Smt.DKP and Smt.NCV , Smt.KB Sundaraambaal were natural vocalists, like Sri.GNB and SG Kittappa.
Well some in that list have been taught, some others at least have been nurtured in a music heavy environment. Gurutvam is a broad concept. Grammar is NOT the end goal. But even trail blazers have a significant adherence to it!

Also DKP could be a good example of a full tone, where that dominates in the absence of pleasing timbre. And much of the tone shines also because of her extreme syllabic awareness (laya yOga) - which lends a perfection to her renditions. kalpita sangIta has a manOdharma to it - and without much ado. So only insiders listened to her then? She had stature and had good listener support at least in traditional circles! Many others did not.

Such styles cannot develop now , as listeners have gone helter skelter! The cream of listeners show up in the season from all over the world and many of them want to perform themselves. Who will then listen and accredit? That work is a year long full time work.

And the two males that you mentioned had the entire delta region to play with as they could travel easily across villages , unlike Women artistes of those days. And the whole region responded to them. There are people who have listened to GNB's tOdi in the train on request, still sharing stories about that in Dallas. And these are NOT musicians. They attributed it to : " what else one could do? There was no other entertainment then!" We now see it NOT as a mere entertainment.

vgovindan
Posts: 1859
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01
x 92
x 14

#202 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by vgovindan »

A kRti in absolute karuNA rasa handled in Ananda bhAva - I may not be able to say how it should be handled, but, surely, I would say that it is not to be handled in this way. HM artist (of the calibre of TMK) would have handled the exact opposite way - and that's the difference between CM and HM rendition.

https://youtu.be/5yZEsJDJ9yc
Last edited by vgovindan on 18 Jun 2020, 10:18, edited 1 time in total.

vgovindan
Posts: 1859
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01
x 92
x 14

#203 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by vgovindan »

And here is a rendition in karuNA rasa in HM - the rAga is different, of course, But the body language, facial expression etc. put together make the atmosphere totally different.

https://youtu.be/-FuW2ZcgOmA

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#204 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by shankarank »

#202 -> From vaibhavam:
karuN(A)ntarangamu telisina nA (manavi)
Sung: ||,,,, ,,ka, ru,,NA ,,nta, || ra,,nga ,,mu, teli,si ,,na, || nA,,, ,,

Should be: ||,,,, ,,ka, ru,,NA ,,nta, || ra,,nga ,,mu, ,,,te ,lisi, || na,,nA ,,

rangamu is together and no gap is made at ranga, rangamu is to be sung continously. That te,lisi, na lands with a verve, if done with a rubato and nA,, crosses the first kriya to reach eDuppu.

There - that is a cop out and a clean bowled. https://youtu.be/5yZEsJDJ9yc?t=316 - musically that is. For all the attempt to extract maximal melodic aesthetic contour of naLinakAnti!

Some pAThAntaram is given! And then complain that it is a hackneyed approach and then say I am exploring as of yet unexplored melody!

Let them think about and bring in that control on syllabic positioning. mattatellAm appuram! Why bother with karuNa and kArunyA now itself? :mrgreen:

They haven't thought about these things all these days. idayE ittana nALA yOsikkavillai! musicellAm sarigamapadanisAdAn!

Well a point there. sarigama - letters - are they music? Are letters music?

And of course:

||,,,, ,,gha, nu,,Dai ,,na, || ,,,SrI ,,rA, ,ma,can ,,dru, ||,,,ni ,,

All super syncopated!

If Govinda dIkshitar imprisoned rAgAs using the 72 system, then the successors imprisoned the compositions with pAthAntarams. Then they say the rAgAs were orphans before, and he gave them janakas!

avan (HM) pArU, asAvari, vAdi, samvAdinellam edO solli darbari kAnADa - (Actor Rajani kuralil!) - malaDA! maruda malai !- yEridiccu.
Look at them (HM) , they started with asAvari , vAdi and samvAdi , then darbAri kAnADa , it ascended the hill at maruda malai ( by Somu).

namakku pApanAsam Sivan uttama vaggEyakkArarAnnu romba sandEham! innum viDalE.
For us still the doubt about whether pApanAsam Sivan is a worthy composer is not yet resolved!
Last edited by shankarank on 19 Jun 2020, 00:30, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
Posts: 1994
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 214
x 21

#205 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by RSR »

https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... -thum-haro
I seriously doubt if 'marudhamalai' song by somu is really Darbari Kanada.
Nowhere near Smt.MS rendering of Hari Thum Haro ( music score by a genius Piano Vaidyanathan).-1947
-----------------------------------------------------------
Even a film song by Mohomad Rafi in Baiju Bawra does some justice to that great ragam. - yeh duniyan ko rahvaale' -1952
rafi
https://youtu.be/MJD9AD_aL08
baiju bawra 1952
---------------------------------
https://youtu.be/3g9zP-8r18w
mangaiyar thilakam
-----------------
A very moving song in a tamil classic film ' mangaiyar thilakam' had a nice song 'Nee varavillai enil aatharavethu'
---------------
This Maruthamali song is not having the 'sanchaaram' at all.

RSR
Posts: 1994
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 214
x 21

#206 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by RSR »

The Hindi film 'Baiju Bawra' released in 1952 was the story of Baiju the mad, a singer and a bitter rival to Tansen. It had about eight songs , all based on HM classical ragas. One of the songs was by Ustad Amir Khan and D.V.Paluskar . The other was a solo by Amirkhan.
Mohamad Rafi had sung two very famous songs , one in HM Bairavi and another in Darbari. There was also a song in Bairav ragam.
All the songs were in chaste HM ragams only. and the film ran for 100 days! ( in 1952, it is a wonder). The producer was Vijay Bhatt of RamaRajyam fame. Music director was Naushad.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiju_Bawra_(film)
https://youtu.be/CF35-vCIKfY

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1700
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23
x 176
x 31

#207 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by Ranganayaki »

vgovindan wrote: 17 Jun 2020, 19:39 A kRti in absolute karuNA rasa handled in Ananda bhAva -

https://youtu.be/5yZEsJDJ9yc
I’m surprised that this is the kriti you would choose to be critical about, given that most other people sing it at breakneck speed without attention to the lyrics because it is Nalinakanthi.

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1700
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23
x 176
x 31

#208 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 18 Jun 2020, 10:52 #202 -> From vaibhavam:
karuN(A)ntarangamu telisina nA (manavi)
Sung: ||,,,, ,,ka, ru,,NA ,,nta, || ra,,nga ,,mu, teli,si ,,na, || nA,,, ,,

Should be: ||,,,, ,,ka, ru,,NA ,,nta, || ra,,nga ,,mu, ,,,te ,lisi, || na,,nA ,,
Yes, that separation as it was done was not very nice.

The increased separation makes “mu” sound like part of “telisina.” In fact i think it should (and can easily) be sung with no separation from ranga, as antarangamu.

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#209 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by shankarank »

Well, the familiarity with language cannot be an excuse after learning so much of SrI tyAgarAja and other composers. This is a well made (sundara) language of a neighbouring state, and 45% population in Chennai itself. For musicians, kriti's words are imprinted as sound in their minds. telisi is such a common word. Tamizh transliterated books were available early during golden era. One can know that telisi is a common word, and "mu" is a case ending without knowing much of Telugu or any Telugu at all!

A simple experience of listening to SrI Balakrishna Sastrigal would have made this familiar. No need to learn language. And musicians could not give him an ear??? Of all people?

Words can be learnt, as our kids - now what EIGHT of them!!, tying at the Spelling Bee in what is not their Mother tongue in America. All of them would not have learnt the depth of meaning of those words. And are we talking about French or German??!! Phonetically accurate languages! We can even excuse the mahaprANAs.

When Bharathy says - tEmadurattamizhOsai , he is referring to the sound, not what the language communicates! What more ordinary proof we need to consider language as music.

vgovindan
Posts: 1859
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01
x 92
x 14

#210 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by vgovindan »

"....this is the kriti you would choose to be critical about...."

If true bhakti - sAttvIka bhakti, as tyAgarAja would call it (bhakti biccam iyyavE - SankarAbharaNam - link given) - is to blossom, then there is no alternative but to have a total control over our minds (another kRti 'manasu nilpa' refers). This kRti is a fervent entreaty to his mind, and through that - advertently or inadvertently - to the suffering masses that, practising karma kANDa (without attendandant nishkAma) is wrought with danger of same rotation of births and deaths and more karma accumulated. Therefore, no matter what our prayers are, how intense they are, it is the self effort which is of utmost significance, without which even if things fructify, it is sheer luck due to our past karma.

Therefore, the karuNa bhAva in this kRti is more pronounced and this needs to be understood, as to why tyAgarAja is, and will ever remain, relevant to a seeker; music is only a sAdhana - a tool. Unfortunately, we are clinging more to the tool, than the substance. (It's different if that tool itself is employed for nAdOpAsana.)

Yesterday, I was viewing another fusion version of the kRti. It's rendering is musically nice, but they don't know even the correct title - they call it 'manavyAlakim'. And that's how it is bound to slide down to pure rock and dance. (If the rAga is so attractive, why use the lyrics of tyAgarAja, why not just play the rAga? - let's have no pretences.)

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... a.html?m=1

https://youtu.be/aOiEuZatAfM

PS : The intent was to bring out the contrast in rendering of same rasa or bhAva. It's not kRti specific.

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#211 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by shankarank »

vgovindan wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 06:41 If the rAga is so attractive, why use the lyrics of tyAgarAja, why not just play the rAga? - let's have no pretences
adaan Alapanaikku AL cerAdu. kEtkamaTTAnga. ( Alapanai will not get listeners!) So kRti is used as a vehicle to do Alapana.

Otherwise kRti is, what only kalpita sangIta right? No kalpana in it.

But before you go to out of context examples like Rock/fusion - where the intention is pretty explicitly declared - the way they appear , lets come back to normal scenarios. It was claimed that some of us are privileged and privilege born! And we have access! True, how have we used it!! Musicians in the bastion of music are indeed privileged and had access. Some of the finest food you can find. Instead of questioning how have they put that to use, so much energy is wasted questioning why there is privilege!

RSR
Posts: 1994
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 214
x 21

#212 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by RSR »

Music has nothing to do with any Language. Nor does it have any connection with either the lyrics, theme of lyrics and implications of the lyrics.
Let me consider a simple case. Venkatesa Suprabhatham. Assume that a pious person has a printed copy and reads it every day. as 'paaraayaNam; without any musical embellishments. Many do.
The person may not know Sanskrit either. So, he is just reading it. He may be carried away by the cadence.
Even if he listens to the famous rendition by Smt. MS, it still is not music , for there is no ragam there.
Likewise, one may listen to many Thyagaraja Swami kritis, without knowing the meaning or philosophy . We just care for the music of the kruthi rendered. Personally, one may not know Telugu or Kannada
or Sanskrit. or even Hindi. It does not in any way diminish the joy of listening to a ragam aalaapanai and kruthi / swaram singing. Better example is Instrumental rendering. ( typically in Nagaswaram and Flute). When vocalists make errors in lyrics rendering, according to the way in which they learned the song, it is hardly noticed by a person who does not know the language at all. He can object to ;apaswaram' however. That is the only thing that matters.
-----
Let me now consider how a great piece of poetry , with devotion to the core, set to wonderful tune and rendered by a vocalist, who is an expert in music as well as imaginative and creative rendering. The vocalist then adds another great dimension to the music. which cannot be done by any instrumentalist.
I am specifically having in mind, the divine record 'vadavaraiyai matthaakki' a ragamalika . It is from Aaychiyar Kuravai in Silappathikaaram of ILango adikaL. ( 200 AD) . I had read that as simple poetry in my school days. without music. But, it was a revelation to hear Smt . MS rendering ( music by S.V.VENKATARAMAN)
I am having in mind, the third and fourth lines of the second stanza.
' aRu poruL ivan endre, amara gaNam thozhuthettha
uru pasi ondru indriye , ulakadaiya uNdanaiye!

uNda vaay kaLavinaan ,uri veNNai uNda vaay
vanduzhaay maalaiyaay , maayamo marutkaitre

uNda vaay kaLavinaan ,uri veNNai uNda vaay
vanduzhaay maalaiyaay , maayamo marutkaitre

அறு பொருள் இவனென்றே , அமர கணம் தொழுதேத்த
உறு பசி ஒன்றின்றியே , உலகடைய உண்டனையே !
உண்ட வாய் களவினான் , உறி வெண்ணெய் உண்ட வாய்
வண்டுழாய் மாலையாய்! மாயமோ மருட்கைற்றே!
உண்ட வாய் களவினான் , உறி வெண்ணெய் உண்ட வாய்
வண்டுழாய் மாலையாய்! மாயமோ மருட்கைற்றே!

https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... matthaakki
------------------
Notice, how she sings the phrase ' vanduzhaay malayaay;, ..the fragrant garland which attracts bees '. the singing brings out the buzzing of the bees.
But it may not be evident to anyone not conversant with literary Tamizh at all.
Thus in almost all the renderings of Thamizh songs, Smt.MS brings that extra dimension, fleeting perhaps, bringing out the ecstasy of the lyric with full understanding. No instrumentalist can do that.
Blessed are the Tamizh rasikas who do not know any language except their mother-tongue for they are saved from all distractions of language, lyrics, philosophy anf grammar!....when listening to the krutis of the Trinity. in Telugu and Sanskrit.
-----------------------------
As an aside, the ragams chosen by SVVenkataraman are
Hamsanadhi, Kamaaj, HindoLam, Shanmugapriya, NaadhaNaamakriya and Kapi. Closely allied to HM scales . ( except two) Could it be another reason why this classic is so very sweet?
Last edited by RSR on 19 Jun 2020, 23:06, edited 2 times in total.

sankark
Posts: 1993
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10
x 100
x 27

#213 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by sankark »

shankarank wrote: 16 Jun 2020, 22:59 And in your question, when you asked which one we are talking about - did you have a classification in mind? Or are all of them same - CM that is! All of them are quite old, even keeping to vocal genre! What about contemporary? Standards have risen? - fallen?
No classifying or any such "reason". Few tabs I had open to play and listen at that time on the browser :)

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#214 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 19 Jun 2020, 22:26 The person may not know Sanskrit either. So, he is just reading it. He may be carried away by the cadence.
Even if he listens to the famous rendition by Smt. MS, it still is not music , for there is no ragam there.
Well, that a wholesome rAgA enjoyment is a complete musical enjoyment, cannot be disputed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My9VUKzssp0 That whole 39 minutes is pure enjoyment. But we should not make a propaganda statement out of that completeness - I.E. only rAgA makes music.

What about 4 notes : https://youtu.be/55svpQ9_Ei0?t=2519 - There was disagreement , if that was a rAgA. Irrespective of the term rAgA and its meaning ( already there is lot of controversy even with less extreme examples), the sAhitya is here : https://youtu.be/55svpQ9_Ei0?t=3028 - Now what could be music here, if there is no rAgam here. The syllabic setting : "cadence" to start with and the sound of svaras, and transitions.

And then here is the tani https://youtu.be/48dKl2mFv8k - he carries the sAhitya mood and employs lot of ringing sound ( rInkAra) and I could sense the rishaba in some cApus also in a kOrvai.

It seems we are privileging "something" called rAgA as the determinant of "music". Before you get to you other dimensions , first you need to consider the two dimensions, physically present here : frequency and time! Why privilege observations on one dimension (frequency) how it varies?

Just like rAgA is a cultural phenomenon ( only some people develop ear for appreciating heavy gamakAs for example, and then develop the holistic sense of rAgA) , the intonation of syllabic sounds in the form of letter sounds is also cultural and specific and distinct in the context of music! You just not manipulate the frequency of a svara to produce music , but the sound of a letter syllable to produce a musical effect. Then you modulate the sound in terms of amplitudes (Strength). Your timbre is the envelop of the sound wave. Then there is tone! Also manipulate the position syllables around tALA kriyas. All of it is judged as musical! More music vs. less music.

And your enjoyment of a particular verse by MSS - you say appeals to only those knowing literary tamizh! Well the above "pure music" ( in your terms!) also has all those deficiencies. People have different sets of limitations there. Flautists attract more crowd than vaiNikAs.

That, rAgA alone determines music is a statement dakshina bhArata (drAviDa bharata) sampradAya sangItam ( if somebody drops the word kutcheri, I drop the word Carnatic here!), can NEVER make to the world!

And people fret over whether rAgAs have ancient usage. Bharata had a different conception of rAgA. tamizh pANs have some connection, and now TNS claims divya prabandams were sung in rAgams to be given up to include more followers due to lack of support for vaishNavism during Chozha reign! But do we really have to go with such tenuous arguments?

The literary tradition - NOW let us STOP RIGHT there !! iyal (nATya), isai (sangIta), ilakkiyam (sAhitya) were spoken together, never separately. The term Literary is HIGHLY colonial due to the philological interest of the West to study the natives and their ways and control them, and their search for their homeland! "Lit" coming from the word stone (lithic), has an extremely anthropological connotation. That writing was done on rocks and stones! https://www.etymonline.com/word/letter ( see diphthera).

In contrast the word sahitya comes from "hita" : benefit to the hearts. sAhitya in the context of music brings forth several elements that are musical in experience. The yati, the prAsa, the mAtras, the kArvais, the long and short alignment to the tALa structure ( if you already factored tALam itself as part of "pure music"). The vallina / mellina (stress) contrast - carried over to rhythmic phrases as well. These are all the gift of sanskritic (chemmai) languages. dvitIyAkshara prAsa is a gift of southern languages.

I laughed when I read this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahity - "Literally means literature" :lol:

Only prAsa if any, an instrumentalist cannot produce. Instrumentalists can modulate the stress to align with the stress of letters also, even if they cannot sound the letters. But instruments bring their own agility and tone and add music in a different dimension. Instrumentalists also cannot play arbitrary verses which a vocalist can make it musical. They have the limitation to stick to well structured sAhitya. That still proves sAhitya is music and not otherwise.

So we have differences within differences.

Is enjoyment of sAhitya bhava with full import of it's meaning, where the listener never pays attention to any rAgam and tALam or any "pure musical" (again in your terms!) details , MUSIC? Absolutely "YES".

But, we cannot claim one of these alone is music? It seems we are anxious to make an All India statement, as to what is Indian music. We don't have to. Why the difference anxiety?

We just have to say dakshina sampradaya has sAhitya as music - a difference with all other musical systems!
Last edited by shankarank on 20 Jun 2020, 21:14, edited 1 time in total.

vgovindan
Posts: 1859
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01
x 92
x 14

#215 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by vgovindan »

RSR,
Music is all about communication. Even Western Music practioners agree on this. Please see the quote below -

https://music.arts.uci.edu/dobrian/CD.music.lang.htm

"Music expresses, at different moments, serenity or exuberance, regret or triumph, fury or delight. It expresses each of these moods, and many others, in a numberless variety of subtle shadings and differences. It may even express a state of meaning for which there exists no adequate word in any language. In that case, musicians often like to say that it has only a purely musical meaning. They sometimes go farther and say that all music has only a purely musical meaning. What they really mean is that no appropriate word can be found to express the music's meaning and that, even if it could, they do not feel the need of finding it."

Musicalised poems, and lyrics - poems composed in musical language (rAga) - are the most effective medium for rasa vibhava and anubhava. Let's not try to equate Indian music with abstract art. Even such abstract art pieces carry a title to convey what the art means. Music, therefore, is all about communication.

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#216 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by shankarank »

Well the way to break into abstract conversation about music ( starting from notes, to Srutis, to octaves, to gamakas, to rAgAs, to treatises and so on!) is to introduce a new abstract statement that "sAhitya is music as well". That would subvert (in reverse) the whole conversation!

As regards the western sites that you quote, I am skeptical because that gets into psycho analysis of the worst kind drawing from Freud. We have our own theories of mind. The west during enlightenment has rethought everything and also learnt from rest of the world, which may never have been acknowledged.

There is no continuous tradition like here, where we keep the old wisdom and imprints , even as we evolve new forms.

West's dilemma in middle ages is not about abstractness vs. meaningfulness of music, it was more between pleasure seeking Vs. religious abstinence - somewhat more dogmatic. There, the quest for meaning of words has a more vicious rejection of music and sound.

https://internetmonk.com/archive/august ... bout-music - This I searched after reading sections from "Thinking about Music" by Lewis Rowell :https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/08702 ... bl_vppi_i2

Eastern traditions handle this more sensibly, transitioning a pleasure seeker to transcendence.

It seems he has a more recent one : https://www.amazon.com/Musical-Thought- ... op?ie=UTF8 - Need to catch up on that.

RSR
Posts: 1994
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 214
x 21

#217 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by RSR »

1) How can Sahithyam be Sangeetham?. It can never be,

2) If so, The Trinity could have left us their lyrics only, without the music. They would have then been just poets without being composers.

3) No westerner especially of the modern era ( 1966 onwards) can really understand the roots and well-springs of INDIAN MUSIC.

4) Musicology is born out of Music . Not the other way around.
Ragas are independent. It is we who classify under a MeLakartha scheme..

5) We can have exquisite music without lyrics. ( Alaapanai, swarams). However, if the listener understands the language, if the theme is soul-lifting, if the poetry is good, if the listener has familiarity with the cultural ambience, if the vocalist understands the lyrics and renders it sweetly, all the better.

For that to be possible, the listener and the vocalist should know Telugu, Kannada, Sanskrit, Hindi and Tamizh also ateast to some extent. to really get the maximum benefit
Above all, both should have admiration for the cultural theme of the song. If besides mere admiration, there is 'identification' all the better.

------------------
Mysore Vasudevachar's Kamaaj kruthi, 'Brocheva' is a typical example/
1) as sung by young Smt.MS

2) as sung by GNB

3) as sung ( perhaps grammar-correct) in film. Sankarabaranam ( 1980) Dullest rendition.
------------------------
It may be that Thyagaraja Swami's kruthis are almost always rendered with greater fidelity to his music by Tamil-speaking vocalists of the Golden era than by other Native-Telugu speaking vocalists.
Last edited by RSR on 21 Jun 2020, 22:12, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#218 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by shankarank »

tamizh mUvar, whose music was lost have been successfully tuned and being rendered. Things could improve - YES, but even in the case of mumUrtis , there is no guarantee that we are singing any original version and how they sung. The music in the sAhitya allowed musicians to transform, embellish the kritIs and rAgAs also have evolved!

vgovindan
Posts: 1859
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01
x 92
x 14

#219 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by vgovindan »

https://youtu.be/VlKkyO4AQY4

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... a.html?m=1

https://youtu.be/oMWF04g7ZUw

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... a.html?m=1

https://youtu.be/zuABBt5v2QY

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... a.html?m=1

https://youtu.be/SKhY-eDeIOw

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... a.html?m=1

https://youtu.be/oQto2VJx6Vw

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... a.html?m=1

https://youtu.be/nteO9tdK_qo

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... a.html?m=1

Even without a tyAgarAja in their midst, HM seems to have kept up the spirit of sangIta, as prescribed in our traditional treatises, namely 'rasAnubhava' as the touchstone to measure musical excellence. What a pity! - probably they don't need one (tyAgarAja) to remind them of it.

Probably, the Sufi influence on HM had a salutory effect.

The universe which we inhabit, has infinite potential. It can bring up not one kRshNa, but thousands - it all depends on the demand of the times. So also, music as a sAdhana and sAdhya, has infinite potential to improvise and improve. But if the fundamentals - rasa - is not kept up, then it is like thunder in deep forest - no one heard it.

I remember a dialogue in the movie RED2, wherein the hero accompanied by his friends vistit a wine shop in Italy. There some terrorists are having a deal with a middleman who is a connoisseur of wine. The terrorists get impatient when the middleman tastes wine sipping drop by drop. They say 'after all wine is wine'.

Those who gulp down drink in one go, do not have the appreciation of sipping wine drop by drop. sangIta rasana is similar, if the rasa has to sink in, and for us to become one with the rasa. But, we are made to gulp down.

PS : I have not tasted wine, but I can relate.

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#220 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by shankarank »

You may want to review the historical accounts stated in here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=4nPHT ... ry&f=false

There is an occasional allusion to some Sanskrit texts and dhrupad. But it looks to me the circumstances surrounding the development of HM is anything but to be proud of.

And you might have written somewhere that you served in the North. Then you are just as biased by your exposure, just as many of us are by the lack of it.

I cannot stand Hindustani music for more than few minutes!

RSR
Posts: 1994
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 214
x 21

#221 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by RSR »

@220
I cannot stand Hindustani music for more than few minutes!
A pity! Whose loss?
What would MD say of that? What would Gopalakrushna Barathy?
GNB? Smt.MS? Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer?

-----------------------------

vgovindan
Posts: 1859
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01
x 92
x 14

#222 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by vgovindan »

Shankarank,

Even this?

https://youtu.be/qiSSLYeiB0I

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#223 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by shankarank »

Well, well I find people surprised when at the same time they don't find value in attending any carnatic concerts. I listened to that for a bit.

From original article.
They argue that the approach in fixing the sruthi for the female voice (or the male voice which is fixed lower) in Carnatic music as 5 (or 5.5) irrespective of the students’ range is faulty
I used to be put off immediately once I hear the sharp squeal of S. Janaki in any tamizh duet. I simply cannot bear with shrill voice. You talk about rasa which is taste. You should know that people have their tastes too!

Now leave aside the subjective part of me. The appreciation of Carnatic music is a collective affair. Individualism may help in some cases. But all such awareness and appreciation are cultural and part of a collective development in people.

It is not without reason Sri Lalgudi brought Sruti down to 2 and none other than Mali was livid, that his student N. Ramani agreed to join that (As narrated by Tanjor Marathi Grundig tape collector - who was one of Mali fans and a frequenter to the concerts)!

That Pandit Jasraj called out kavitha there! Well he is not sure he has his audience? I have seen this act before. L Subramaniam called her out in his Jazz fusion @ Columbus Ohio to do some Hindi hits to entertain some of his "Indian" audience - he sure counted that most of the "Indians" would be "Hindi". And that is true as well!

Look I have heard fusion between Lalgudi and Amjad Ali, BMK and Bimsen Joshi as early as my College days. There is no Carnatic there - it is diluted to gel with whatever.

South Indian musicians do these things sometimes, since durbar is still in Delhi! It is like how South Indians have to join the North to build temples here in U.S sometimes. No vaastu rules or Shilpa Sastra will be followed. As one southern vaadyaar remarked to us in Albany , NY - this won't work at all. They will ask why the stone is black. "avALukku atan tatparyam teriyAdu" ( they don't understand the ritualistic significance of it).
RSR wrote: 18 Jun 2020, 15:12 I seriously doubt if 'marudhamalai' song by somu is really Darbari Kanada.
That was mentioned as the rAgA by SrI Kunnakudi Vaidyanathan in an interview. He specifically mentions the concept of chandas employed, as he stroked syllabic passages and describes how Kannadasan composed "saktitirumagan" verse.
The rAgA is clear in all dhIrga portions of the song. It is in madyama/dRta kAla for the celebratory scene for the Lord. Southern adoption.

I am just into the music as vaRnam starts in any concert!
GNB? Smt.MS? Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer?
Did any of them say anything about people NOT listening to the slow paced music of Smt T. Brinda! I suppose Dhanammal was choosy with her audience. Nobody can blame anybody.

They get recognition from the audience and not the other way around!

RSR
Posts: 1994
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 214
x 21

#224 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by RSR »

Influence of Hindusthani Music
Ramaswami Dikshatar's guru, Vina Venkata Vaidyanatha Dikshitar was a descendant of Govinda Dikshitar and Venkitamakhi.
Venkitamakhi was himself an adept in Hindusthani music and had a number of disciples belonging to that school. This can be the reason why Muthuswami Dikshitar had an affinity towards Hindusthani music.
----------
From a paper on MD in Shodhganga
--------------
read more at
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... hikshithar

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#225 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by shankarank »

Hindustani style or influence does not make it Hindustani music. HM has it's method teaching, siksha, practice and appreciation. SrI dIkshitar's compositions still are compositions incorporating the laya of kARnATaka sangItam. jAru is an accepted one in kARnATaka / dakshiNa sangItam - just that it is one among many.

cEtaSri in dvijAvanti is indeed almost on the kaRnAtaka sangIta style. Even in his nOTTusvara sAhityams of western music , he incorporated, the laya method of kaRnAtaka sangIta.

RSR
Posts: 1994
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 214
x 21

#226 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by RSR »

Gopalakrushna Barathy learned HM from a North Indian . and made use of many ragams common to HM and CM. A music system is primrily decided by the ragams in it. The North-South divide is a mental barrier , more based on religious chauvinism. After all, Persian influence ( read Iranian ) is closer to vedic sanskrit ( even in the Fire ritual ). There are atleast 30 ragams common to CM and HM , very pleasing and often sung by great CM vocalists in the Golden era.
https://sites.google.com/site/hindusthaniragams/
----------------------
Northern Karnataka, Maharashtra , Madhyapradesh , Rajasthan, Punjab, Gujarath, many small kingdoms in UP and Northern Bihar and ofcourse, Bengal , had great many Hindu ,Sikh and Muslim vocalists and Instrumentalists. Alluddin Khan , the renowned master of so-many instruments, was a devotee of Ramakrishna Paranmahamsa and Dhakshineswar temple. Long back in 1970, I had a collection of precious gramophone records by famous HM vocalists. ( especially Salaamath Ali and Nazaakath ali ). A lot of such great songs are now avaiulable in youtube.

vgovindan
Posts: 1859
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01
x 92
x 14

#227 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by vgovindan »

I happened to listen to Kaushiki Chakraborty in conversation with Shankar Mahadevan, in an assembly of students of music. She made an observation that while practising, instead of uttering A........ they should utter hA....... becuse ha arises below nAbhi whereas A arises above - heart region. Once they get used to that deep resonating sound of hA, they can drop the 'h'. Subsequently, A will naturally arise from below nAbhi. I hope this is already being taught to CM students.

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#228 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by shankarank »

Well! Well! Hot off the press - not so somewhat belated:

Two musicians in conversation:

https://youtu.be/hl8oKKCaJk4?t=1986

Ariyakudi - a bit of Bhajan touch may be but largely Carnatic.

KVN, SSI : Lets not mince words - Bollywood music!

Balasarasvati : May be true Hindustani influence.

That leaves the descendants: T. Brinda and then Ramnad krishnan as true Carnatic musicians!

sureshvv
Posts: 5381
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17
x 148
x 20

#229 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by sureshvv »

vgovindan wrote: 17 Jun 2020, 19:39 A kRti in absolute karuNA rasa handled in Ananda bhAva - I may not be able to say how it should be handled, but, surely, I would say that it is not to be handled in this way.

<snip>

https://youtu.be/5yZEsJDJ9yc
This may be the case of too much knowledge impacting your ability to just listen and enjoy.

Sometimes, ignorance is indeed bliss :D

PS: this thread itself is an abomination - possibly started by someone who has not heard enough of either forms of music, and nurtured by others of the same ilk.

rajeshnat
Posts: 9202
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
x 119
x 16

#230 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by rajeshnat »

Just hear this song with an alapana that typically resembles more a hindustani ustad , can some one ever say CM is not sweeter. The same ashtapadi is also sung by so many hindustani musicians. If mrudangam is there instead of tabla for me it is almost near game over.

Maharajapuram Santhanam- anilatharala - viswapriya - Jayadeva
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGupfvGQ9aI

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1700
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23
x 176
x 31

#231 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by Ranganayaki »

Many carnatic artists make carnatic music sound noisy. That’s why. They are not concerned with the aesthetics of sound, but more with the grammar of the music, with speed, calculations. The sound is not crafted. They are still able to find success. We are carried away by these same concerns and think it’s good music because we know the grammar and appreciate the virtuosity in speed and we like the calculations. The more we appreciate these things, the less we are concerned with aesthetics. We are blinded to the possibility that it may not be nice music.

I find that I cannot share cm with anyone outside its world of established Rasikas. Very few artists are really presentable to the outside world. It’s embarrassing.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 02 Jul 2020, 06:05, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#232 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by shankarank »

You can share this:

https://youtu.be/FQ58oHveyDM?list=PLNtP ... Sichn&t=37

PrOaper :D ghana rAgA but presented with a lighter voice, with weighty accompaniment - it is not the old tamizh filmy takajunutakadhimi - rather starts as tadhdhin-dhinna with dhinta-dhinta finishes - the aspect of combing long and short syllables which a listener needs acclimatized to.

And some lighter presentations of CM:

https://youtu.be/GI7uXx6DDcc?t=285

And a jAvaLi too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrSXWlNagXc

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1700
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23
x 176
x 31

#233 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by Ranganayaki »

I haven’t listened to the videos you suggest. But from reading how you recommend them, I suspect that you may have misunderstood what I meant. I am not interested in lighter voices or lighter music.

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1700
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23
x 176
x 31

#234 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by Ranganayaki »

I just checked the first video. That is an artist I definitely respect but I don’t listen to. Irrespective of whether I listen to him or not, it is clear that you have misunderstood what I meant.

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#235 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by shankarank »

Well there are artists that produce good sound within the idiom of CM in today's context! You could share them. Why struggle with ones you cannot share - is what I meant.

Who are the ones that produce "heavy" music that you are able to share?

If we have a few then why bother with most of them that produce only calculations , speed - "all false stuff" - again in quotes!
Last edited by shankarank on 02 Jul 2020, 10:34, edited 1 time in total.

sureshvv
Posts: 5381
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17
x 148
x 20

#236 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by sureshvv »

The Late Sri S. Rajam narrated an anecdote about the occasion of Sri Ariyakudi receiving the Padma Award in Delhi from Prime Minister Nehru himself and Nehru storming out angrily from the Carnatic concert at the ceremony because he found nothing musical about it :D

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#237 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by shankarank »

In the current political discourse - Ahem! - "Rejection is part of the conversation!".

Well Nehru also thought south is not part of India - totally different! https://twitter.com/i/status/1128280659284434945

sureshvv
Posts: 5381
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17
x 148
x 20

#238 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by sureshvv »

Ranganayaki wrote: 01 Jul 2020, 20:43 I find that I cannot share cm with anyone outside its world of established Rasikas. Very few artists are really presentable to the outside world. It’s embarrassing.
Takes a special someone. Nothing to be embarrassed about :) May be you can try it at low volume with some jazz aficionados who are sure to go into rapture with our various talas & kriyas.

RSR
Posts: 1994
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 214
x 21

#239 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by RSR »

First, nobody can really claim to have mastered all aspects of either CM or HM. Such claims are real 'abominations'. The essential difference between truly classical HM vocalists and CM is the importance given to Ragam elaboration in HM . The emphasis of CM is different. Krithi is the essence of CM as contributed by Haridasa singers and the Trinity. Not all the kruthis but some chosen ones, themselves are best specimens of CM. without any embellishments like Alaap, swarams, RTP, and sruthibedham. The soul of such great renditions is Tranquility. It all depends on the vocalist choosing and rendering such kriuthis,
The language , meaning , and theme and grammar and such have no relevance here in such kruthis. Too much obsession with the philosophy and grammar and poetics , prevents one from really appreciating and getting enthralled with the musical aspect of the composition. Of course, much depends on the vocalist also. Smt.DKP , though an acknowledged expert in RTP style, has given us many such gems. The ragam itself has the Bhavam not the words and the meaning. People without knowing the language and meaning can still get a blissful experience. Nor is appreciation need be connected with the religious theme. The Trinity meant at least some of their kuthis to be self-contained and to be sung as such. Perhaps, I am unable to convey fully what I have in mind. All of them are slow-paced and do not ever reach higher octave notes. This is just a random list.
1) Maanasa Guru Guha - Anandabairavi, MD- DKP
2) Nama kusuma - Sree Ragam- Thyagaraja- Alathoor
3) Janani Ninnu vina - Reethi GowLa- Subbaraya Sastry- Semmangudi
4) Mamava Maadhava deva - Neelaambar- NaraayaNa Theertha-DKP
5) Kanakana - VaraaLi- Thyagarakja- Smt.MS
6) Dasanamadiko- NaadhaNamakriya- Purandara Dasa- Smt.MS
7) Giri pai- Sahaanaa- Thyagaraja- Smt.MS
8) Koluva mara- Todi- Thyagaraja- Smt.MS
9) Intha sowkyamu - Kapi- Thyagaraja- MaNi Iyer
10) Janaki ramaNa - Suddha seemanthini- Smt DKP, MaNi Iyer
11) KatthaNu Variki- Todi- Thyagaraja- N.C.Vsanthakokilam
12) NaaraayaNa Divya Naamam- Mohanam- P.Sivan- Smt.MS
13) Kaa vaa vaa- Varaali - P.Sivan- MaNi Iyer
14) Sivakama Sundatri - Mukhari- P.Sivan- DKP
15) Kshenamai dhiruga- Mukhari- Thyagaraja- Smt.MS
16) Sree Sathya NaraayaNam- SubapanthuvaraaLI- MD- Smt.DKP
17) Kanccha dhalaaya - Kamalaa manohari- MD- Smt.MS
18) Sri Kanthimathim - Hemavathi-MD- Smt.MS
19) Kaalaith thookki -Yadhukula kambodhi- Marimutha Pillai- Smt.MS
20) Enna ganu Rama bajana- PanthuvaraaLi- Badrachalam- Smt.MS
21) VaNdaadum Solai- Harikambodhi- Kalki( LYRICS)- Smt.MS
22) Sujana jeevana - Kamaaj- Thyagaraja- Smt.DKP
23) Thookkiya thiruvadi- Sankarabaranam- P.Sivan- Smt.DKP
24) ThaNikai vaLar - Todi- P.Sivan- Smt.DKP
25) Samaja vara gamana - HindoLam- Thyagaraja- GNB
26) Sangeetha Gyaanamu- Dhanyasi- Thyagaraja- Smt,DKP
27) Entha Nerchnaa- Suddha dhantasi- Thyagaraja- Smt.DKP
28) Meenaakshi memudham- Poorvikalyani - MD- Smt.MS
30) Sarojadhala - Sankarabaranam- Shyama Sastry- Smt.MS
------------------
Learned rasikas and veteran critics and reviewers , of course, will surely be familiar with all these krithis. and can easily see that they are all slow-paced, begin at low notes and do not travel much above the normal octave. That , in the opinion of a lay rasika like myself, is true CM. Not at all apologetic about this.

RSR
Posts: 1994
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 214
x 21

#240 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by RSR »

Dragging the name of the great Jawaharlal Nehru into this discussion is totally unwarranted. He was too cultured a gentleman to have done any thing as walking out of Ariyakkudi concert with such a remark. ( proof ?_ Nor is the great Sri.Rajam ever likely to have narrated any such thing) It is not at all true that he thought of the South as different. In fact he has mentioned that it was the South that preserved the ancient traditions when the Gangetic plain was in political turmoil after the fall of Mauryan empire of Asoka. Though he did not know much about the Sangam period( 200 BC to 200 AD) and the Kalabrar interrugnum( 200 AD to 600 AD), he has written about the great Sathavahana empire( Andhra kingdom- 200 BC to 200 AD and the flourishing maritime and peaceful enterprise of them - a period in which Vedic religion, Buddhism and Jainism co-existed peacefully and contributed in different spheres of social activity and well being,) Pallava kingdoms and Imperial Cholas. In his chapter on Marco Polo, he has admiringly quoted MarcoPolo the Venetian traveller ,about the prosperity of the later Pandyan empire (1300 AD) ,the successor to Imperial Cholas. as the RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WHOLE WORLD! And of course, his chapter on Vijayanagar empire ( 1300 AD to 1600 AD) is a classic. He was too much of an Indian Nationalist as well as Internationalist. to ever look down upon the South. He has even commended the book by Ananda Kumaraswami. Sad that mere literates are converting this forum for classical music into slandering slum.

Nick H
Posts: 9138
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
x 921
x 26

#241 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by Nick H »

Ranganayaki wrote: 02 Jul 2020, 06:27 I just checked the first video. That is an artist I definitely respect but I don’t listen to. Irrespective of whether I listen to him or not, it is clear that you have misunderstood what I meant.
We go around this circle, under the cover of one thread title or another, so regularly. I think it is agreed that, traditionally, beauty and quality of voice in CM is left to genetic accident rather than any study or training.

I don't know if this is true of HM too, but same thing has left (for past 50-100 years?) carnatic vocalists dependent on microphones. They are not taught or expected to learn the basics of stage presentation and projection that are so elementary to most of the world's performance arts.

Perhaps we should look on the positive side: it is a matter of wonder, and perhaps mystery, that many with actually-not-so-good voices are able to entrance us, and to do so in ways that do not depend on maths, speed of delivery, etc etc. There is magic in the music which does not depend on vocal skill... but there is nothing wrong with adding vocal skill to it to make it better.

I do think that many of the younger generation have taken this seriously, and it is a "problem" that carnatic music will outgrow in a generation or two. I wonder if the people of that time will still be having this conversation!

Obviously, my likings are well known, and there are a number of names that are always close to the top of my head, but if I have to mention one such -off-the-top-of-my-head name for having a beautiful voice, the first would be Sumithra Vasudev. Since first hearing her, I have felt that she could sing any kind of music and sound wonderful. If a non-carnatic person can hear her and dislike, then it is not voice quality that is putting them off.

I have one British friend who cannot listen to carnatic music (I don't recall how she feels about HM) at all: to her it is like the notes are all wrong and it makes her uncomfortable. But this is not inherent in being foreign. Nor is it inherent in being more than just a listener to the music of foreign. Two visiting friends, in the happy pre-virus days of not so long ago, both from Paris, are not only long-term students of carnatic music, but also high level professionals in performing and teaching western classical music.

shankarank
Posts: 3396
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 4
x 18

#242 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by shankarank »

@RSR - I know yours is a generation cherishing of Independence times - but subsequent generations can have a different view of history.

As regards couple of posts on evolution of Smt. DKP's voice, by the time I listened to the first cassette ( forgetting the few songs from Radio during childhood!) TNS seperately and SrI Karaikudi Mani have captured our (including many a musical friend of my generation) imagination, with SubramhanyAya namastE by DKP accompanied by Karaikudi mani , it was even a greater bliss to see the impeccable kAlaprmaNam , gait and the accompaniment thundering with tIrmanams with minimal of syllables. Minimalism at it's best! Anything about her voice "never" crossed our minds!

So my thesis, if somebody really asks what can be done by them to listen to Carnatic music, simply develop a taste for Mridangam - from a good Mridangist! That is the answer for this day, and only if the question is put in the first place - it may also be obsolete someday!

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1700
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23
x 176
x 31

#243 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by Ranganayaki »

sureshvv wrote: 02 Jul 2020, 10:45
Ranganayaki wrote: 01 Jul 2020, 20:43 I find that I cannot share cm with anyone outside its world of established Rasikas. Very few artists are really presentable to the outside world. It’s embarrassing.
May be you can try it at low volume with some jazz aficionados who are sure to go into rapture with our various talas & kriyas.
A jazz aficionado, a performing percussionist, no less (🙂)happened to ask me if I had any CM pieces to suggest (he likes HM) and I just happened to remember the kalinga Nartana piece that had just come out. He did like it. But of course it was recorded music.. He also told me he’d just discovered N Rajam..

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1700
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23
x 176
x 31

#244 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 02 Jul 2020, 13:07 First, nobody can really claim to have mastered all aspects of either CM or HM. Such claims are real 'abominations'.
Did anyone do that? I didn’t read that anywhere!

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1700
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23
x 176
x 31

#245 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 02 Jul 2020, 13:07 The essential difference between truly classical HM vocalists and CM is the importance given to Ragam elaboration in HM . The emphasis of CM is different. Krithi is the essence of CM as contributed by Haridasa singers and the Trinity.
The language , meaning , and theme and grammar and such have no relevance here in such kruthis. The ragam itself has the Bhavam not the words and the meaning. People without knowing the language and meaning can still get a blissful experience.
These two quotes seem to contradict each other. And the second one seems to accord a very minimal role to the lyrics and therefore the kriti.

In this light, how do the themes, spirituality and poetry of kritis matter at all? Why would songs like the 30 you suggest be any more important than any random kriti?

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1700
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23
x 176
x 31

#246 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by Ranganayaki »

Nick H wrote: 02 Jul 2020, 16:03
Perhaps we should look on the positive side: it is a matter of wonder, and perhaps mystery, that many with actually-not-so-good voices are able to entrance us, and to do so in ways that do not depend on maths, speed of delivery, etc etc. There is magic in the music which does not depend on vocal skill... but there is nothing wrong with adding vocal skill to it to make it better.
I do look at that positive side, and that’s how I enjoy music. I’m not speaking of less gifted voices. No I think it’s amazing that our music allows us to go beyond appearances and see more of the soul, so to speak.

I mean a complete disregard for musicality, a lack of awareness of one’s bad vocal habits, a misunderstanding of or even a complete lack of concern for beauty; no attention to aesthetics..

RSR
Posts: 1994
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 214
x 21

#247 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by RSR »

a) Refers to 229
--------

244 and 245
=========
b) There is no contradiction. All the songs are famous. Vintage records. ( 1940-1955) available in my site sites.google.com
dkpattammalsongs, homage2mssubbulakshmi, nvcvasanthakokilam
----------------------
other songs mentioned are available in youtube.
==================================
Obviously , there is confusion in your mind about what kruthi means. The music transcends the lyrics and theme.
Best brought out when we listen to the same songs in Nagaswaram.

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1700
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23
x 176
x 31

#248 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 02 Jul 2020, 23:07 a) Refers to 229
--------

244 and 245
=========
b) There is no contradiction. All the songs are famous. Vintage records. ( 1940-1955) available in my site sites.google.com
dkpattammalsongs, homage2mssubbulakshmi, nvcvasanthakokilam
----------------------
other songs mentioned are available in youtube.
==================================
Obviously , there is confusion in your mind about what kruthi means. The music transcends the lyrics and theme.
Best brought out when we listen to the same songs in Nagaswaram.
1. What is “a)” ?

2. I didn’t ask whether the songs were famous or not.. most of us are familiar with most of these songs.

3. Just saying there is no contradiction doesn’t answer me. You could explain why you think the contradiction I perceive is not actually there.

4. Please also explain to me my confusion about the meaning of the word kriti. It is not enlightening simply to say I’m confused. You have to show it to me. I’m not aware of any confusion.

5. You did not answer my question in 244.

RSR
Posts: 1994
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 214
x 21

#249 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by RSR »

(a) refers to your post at 244
--------------------------------
(b) Read the scholarly blog by srinivasaraos on ShyamaSastry and the Trinity and the evolution of various musical forms. I have posted the links ( 4 parts) in General discussion section very recently . viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34424
-------------------------------------------------------
If one is unable to perceive the essential similarity of those 30 renderings, ( I have tried to indicate 'why' to the extent possible, though, I am afraid ,I cannot enlighten you. It is possible only if we just forget meaning etc and focus on the melody. and hum It in your mind.
------------------------
By the way there is a very nice short story ( by thi.Janakraman) link posted last night by me in vidwans and vidhushi section. It is Thamizh. Lalitharam has just now posted a wonderful interview with MLV In the peoples section.
--------------------------
Happy reading.

sureshvv
Posts: 5381
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17
x 148
x 20

#250 Re: Why HM sounds sweeter

Post by sureshvv »

Ranganayaki wrote: 02 Jul 2020, 22:10 A jazz aficionado, a performing percussionist, no less (🙂)happened to ask me if I had any CM pieces to suggest (he likes HM) and I just happened to remember the kalinga Nartana piece that had just come out. He did like it.
Amrutha Venkatesh's 50 tillanas may also do the trick! :)

Post Reply