The tyranny of words

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by arasi »

Keats also meant 'soft windpipes, play on!', a lyrics lover like me would like to think.

Now, take film music--imagine all the music to be sans parole--all those dancing around the trees, holding hands, a scene in a temple, putting a child to sleep (Satyajit Ray and co are exceptions).

Then, how about the complaint that there is poor attendance even for top notch instrumental music concerts?

Aditto
Posts: 323
Joined: 20 May 2008, 20:31

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by Aditto »

Because it is top notch :)

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by Rsachi »

Suresh,
My smattering of literary and art history tells me romantic as a reaction to classical existed in 18-19C CE! I quote from an essay written in 1911:
Here is the root of all romanticism: that man, the individual, is an infinite reservoir of possibilities; and if you can so rearrange society by the destruction of oppressive order then these possibilities will have a chance and you will get Progress.

One can define the classical quite clearly as the exact opposite to this. Man is an extraordinarily fixed and limited animal whose nature is absolutely constant. It is only by tradition and organisation that anything decent can be got out of him.

GautamTejasGaneshan
Posts: 82
Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 23:04

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by GautamTejasGaneshan »

@arasi,

Thanks for the welcome - I like it here.

Concert today in SF - definitely gonna sing words.
(i.e. five hours from now.)

w/

Vignesh Thyagarajan - violin
Akshay Venkatesan - mridangam
Krishnan A. V. - ghatam
Vijay Narayan - tambura
Christina Boyd - tambura

https://carnatic-ata.eventbrite.com/

Image

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by vasanthakokilam »

One thing that dawned on me recently is something that is probably obvious. In CM we distinguish between vaggeyakaras who write their own lyrics and set the tune for it. That shows the importance to lyrics that CM affords. More than that, when the lyricist did not set the tune or the tune is lost and someone else set the tune, the latter day tunesmith is not even acknowledged most of the times. How many times is credit given to Nedunoori when an Annamacharya song is referred to. We say it is an Annamacharya composition, in raga this and thala that. Not too many people say in the same breath, 'set to tune by ......'. That is ample enough evidence of the primacy of lyrics in CM.

But that is in concept only.

As we have been discussing here, a vast majority of people do not pay attention to the lyrics, and even among those do a lot of them would not know more than the starting line or two of the song. So there is definitely a huge mismatch there ( and the gall we rasikas have to complain when the Musician occasionally refers to a book for the words.. for something most of us do not care much anyway ).

Contrast that to the lowly film music. True, a lot of lyrics are not worth even minuscule amount of consideration, but there are hundreds and hundreds of songs with great melody and lyrics where people actually pay attention to it. Because they are so relatable to them. In a recent discussion, a lot of people shared how tears used to roll down their cheeks whenever they heard the pasa malar songs especially 'malardhum malarada' and the sad version of 'malargaLai pOl thangai'. I am sure there are tons of examples from Hindi, Telugu, Kannada and Malayalam film songs. That is actually where we see the power of lyrics.

This all came down to a real world relevance recently. My friend's teenage daughter is a huge Taylor Swift fan and made me listen to a few of her songs which I would not have heard otherwise. Recently, she was complaining to me about something happening in her life and was quite down about it. To cheer her up I told her in a funny manner 'Why don't you take your Idol's advice. Just 'Shake it off'. That actually made a tremendous difference in her. The time, place and her frame of mind happened to be just right for those words to sink in and that cheered her up. The fact she knows the lyrics inside out helped as well. She is a big cynic about old people like me giving advice since like all young people she thinks we do not understand their problems but inadvertently I used the sage advice from a person who is less than half my age. That was the right move ;)

So, to put the power of words to good use, whenever things bring you down including many discussions in this forum, follow Taylor Swift's advice:

'Shake it off'

Why?

Because

the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate (haters gonna hate)
I'm just gonna shake, shake, shake, shake, shake
I shake it off, I shake it off
Heart-breakers gonna break, break, break, break, break (mmmm)
And the fakers gonna fake, fake, fake, fake, fake (and fake, and fake, and fake)
Baby, I'm just gonna shake, shake, shake, shake, shake
I shake it off, I shake it off

(The last thing in my mind when I woke this morning was to quote Taylor Shift.. :) )

VK RAMAN
Posts: 5009
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:29

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by VK RAMAN »

hate, shake, break down !!!

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by vgovindan »

vk,
Take the example of Vedas. This treasure has been handed down to us through millenniums, and yet they are not subjected to any change in their wordings, intonation, Reason, the method adopted by them was so impeccable that no single word or its intonation can be corrupted.

These vedic verses are recited by vedic scholars and vaidikas (professionals) like parrots without knowing a damn about what is said. I doubt whether most of them even know the vAcyArtha (word meaning). There are further stages to it - lakshyArtha - what is meant to be conveyed and then the lakshya (the target itself).

In spite of all these, probably, there is one in a thousand or so who understands the vAcyArtha and among them one in a thousand who understands lakshyArtha and rare is the one who, transcending all these reach the lakshya.

Similarly, we are talking of professional musicians only and we remain contended with what they bring out. Well, that is alright for routine. But if even one among them goes beyond and understands the purpose of music - communication - and pursues that path, music is in safe hands. Among such people, there will be at least one who will reach the goal - music for its own sake.

I had sometime back posted statement of a HM musician - a great one - but impoverished who said 'if I don't sing, what will I do'?

Music as enjoyment is alright for common public - because everyone keeps asking 'what next'?

If everyone remains at the level 'what next', then there would not have been those vAggEyakkaras - that is not to belittle the tunemiths, but tunesmiths are tunesmiths.

Let us earnestly pray that CM produces one another vAggEyakkara who could be counted as 'Quartet' and not 'Trinity' for all ages.

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by kvchellappa »

Why 'lowly film music' ?
Advice in yoga is 'let go'.
Why do we bother if a musician refers to a pad when we do not care for the words anyway? That is because we appreciate he has worked that much more in internalising the words musically and it shows in the rendering.

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by vgovindan »

Somehow, I have been uneasy with many a statements made - of all, in a Balachander's tele serial 'Premi', a statement is made 'It is said in gIta - whatever happened was for good, whatever happens is for good, whatever is going to happen is for good'. There are posters giving this wordings - and in Tamil too. I have been wondering as to where in the whole gItA, gItArcArya has made this statement.

Now Chellappa makes a statement 'advice in yOga' - 'let go'. First of all, yOga itself is misnomer - it is hatha yOga or yOgAsanas - a simple tool for true yOga. In fact, true yOga does not need this prop - hatha yOga - to be accomplished. Once, the famous Kushwant Singh commented 'if I had known that kuNDalini yOga brings in added sexual pleasure, I would have started practising it long time back'. That is the level to which yOga has been dragged down. What is meant by 'let go'?

It is not at all wrong to emphasize having a good physique - without that one cannot progress in yOga. But hatha yOga is not the only route for good physique - all that needs is a modest food habits and reasonable physical exercise.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by arasi »

Kokilam, you've said it...

Of late, we generate words, reams of them
To say words in music are passe, dead, gone--

It's like saying--let's do away with words
In our every day being--they obstruct
Our lives, complicate living, lend for
Misunderstanding--off with them! :evil:

No song to sing to a child, just humming a tune,
No sweet baby talk, just gurgles in return!

Praise to the lord only in svarAs--no words
Love songs emoted as if feelings are mute--

As though life is a non stop elevator ride--
A chain of plane take offs--and this in CM?
Where words and tune go hand in hand?

Make a movie move only with music without words?
With a story without speech, only gestures and mime?

Ask a student to throw away his books because
He's no good at studies? What next, I wonder...

Pallavi, anupallavi, charaNA, virutham, SlOkAs, that is CM,
With all the beauty of rAgAs, svarAs and tAnA framing them :)

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by vgovindan »

Delectable words - no matter how many times one hears them - that make one say 'once more'.

https://www.facebook.com/10000011622303 ... 419437468/

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by shankarank »

VGV , thanks for the link and I cherish the message there very much. However I feel that , a perfect enunciation of sAhitya which is sangIta by itself is not possible in a chorus/group singing. I am thinking of pancaratnam.

Musicians may employ better ways of singing in Solo and achieve better integrity of the music (sAhitya and sangIta - both synonymous for me). Getting pada integrity in many cases requires laya grip.

What has happened as a dogma in the musical community is this quest for preserving versions of music - an influence from the West - with further angst thrown in : " We Indians are bad at preserving treasures!" - i.e. bad curators of a museum!

But music ( sAhitya) murdered for preserving a pATham considered as "music"? That should not be the basis.

In teaching where accommodations are made to get svara/tALA/Sruti of the music right, then that is a different matter. A change of perspective is required. pAthantaram is a tool of conveying music in a Guru SiShya conversation.

Taking some of the examples in that link: If a musician holds breath for "paramAdvaita" to sing it continuously, I am afraid Periyava cannot raise any objection. sandhi is a celebrated metaphor in taitriya upaniShad. sandhi intact is as much valid, as split of padas. Music is of higher order than even vEdas by Periyava's own words.


As regards agnAna dhvAnta of subramhaNyAya namastE, this requires atIta just like agnAna dhvAnta in SrI nAthAdi guruguhO and many musicians ( MSS, KVN) post ARI/GNB have shifted to this mode. ARI and GNB are doing anAgata which crowds syllables destroying Sabdha, mAtra, yati, laya sangIta even if Sruti/svara/rAgA sangIta escape. Sanjay when I checked does guru of guruguhAyA as atIta in preperation for agnAnA to be atIta. Something has improved ;)

One other example will be dvaitamu sukhamAdvaitamu sukhama. If a musician can hold breath for dvaitamu sukhamAdvaitamu , no objection can be raised. The AkAra ( kArvai) of the sandhi crosses saSabda kriya and there cannot be a better musical output than that. However if it had to be split, Advaita has to be taken atIta:

||,,dvaitamu sukhamA,, a | ,, dvaitamu sukhama

a | ,, dvaitamu goes in 3(s) - 6, 6, 3, 3 in higher kAlA to land on SaSabda kriya of second dRtam.

The current renditions which do it anAgata introduce an artificial lumping of syllables.

In all, first we have to agree that sAhitya and sangIta are synonymous. Philological notions of words, lyrics which convey meaning should be avoided.
Last edited by shankarank on 27 May 2019, 00:59, edited 2 times in total.

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by Ranganayaki »

I’ve been wondering about the title of this thread! The thread (the parts I can understand, there’s quite a bit I don’t), including the original post seems to be about sahitya being a victim of careless singers. What’s the meaning of “the tyranny of words?”

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by shankarank »

What about vaRNams? When rendered slow we only have the sAhitya in vaRNa (pun intended) form , where vaRNa here means letters ( vaRNa svarah - from sIksha valli). Some musicians ( I am avoiding names) who opened up about this, early 2000s, felt vaRNam had to be sung fast , perhaps to get padas to express themselves clearly. They pointed to how somebody like KVN renders vaRNams.

Oh boy , isn't that a big subject of discussion in recent times? VaRNa being made warm up artifact , then Mic. check exercise!

But if rendered slowly, in a perspective where sAhitya is sangIta, we experience them in vaRNa form where the music of the letters sound out with the svaras. All that needs to be done is to do a second kAlam to complete the picture (vaRNa also means painting - well letters were pictorial to begin with and even the letters we have now are curly pictorials if you see it that way!)

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by shankarank »

Ranganayaki wrote: 27 May 2019, 00:44 What’s the meaning of “the tyranny of words?”
I guess it means words are being tyrannical to the music being rendered. But if they are mere words how can they not be? Artistes are cobbling together a rendition of this or that song, because Audience are looking for the same, not the sound or music of the words. Music in words remain undiscovered.

Philately is taking place instead of philosophy. Songs , Songs - become collectors item!

ajaysimha
Posts: 831
Joined: 19 Apr 2018, 18:16

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by ajaysimha »

i thought, it would be very nice to hear from Needamangalam Krishnamurthy Bhagavathar on this topic

so i have uploaded:
Humorous Anecdotes in Carnatic Music narrated by Needamangalam Krishnamurthy Bhagavathar
https://youtu.be/SPN8HSFinSg

after listening to above video i felt:
this problem of The tyranny of words existed from times and might exist in future!!

my personal thoughts on this is:
either the artist mispronounces the words with ignorance or with over confidence :D

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by shankarank »

If discourses are like that, I would just go to them.. you get susvara music ;) :lol:

Well I would say current generations are not that ignorant. Only remaining issue remaining may be the tamizh vs. the rest issues. If artistes considered sAhitya as music, they would immerse themselves in it and will bring out the best. And they would also have the conviction to repeat songs without worrying about audience reaction to the same.

The opening thread talks about artistes forgetting lyrics. The issues of language that Bhagavatar jokes about are outdated now. You can learn the words perfectly without knowing anything of that "language". If you are not doing that, you have spent less time with music - that's it.

If "lyrics" are constraining , but svaraprastAra is all free form and imaginative, then how come there is quite a bit of consensus on "the few" who are the best in doing svarams ?? Which means it is not all that free form! :)

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1760
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 28 May 2019, 10:55
Ranganayaki wrote: 27 May 2019, 00:44 What’s the meaning of “the tyranny of words?”
I guess it means words are being tyrannical to the music being rendered. But if they are mere words how can they not be? Artistes are cobbling together a rendition of this or that song, because Audience are looking for the same, not the sound or music of the words. Music in words remain undiscovered.

Philately is taking place instead of philosophy. Songs , Songs - become collectors item!
I’m afraid I still don’t get it. How can words be said to be tyrannical if the complaint is that words are being butchered? May be the OP could explain what he meant. Would he?

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by vgovindan »

"....words are being butchered..."

No, words are not allowed to be butchered; hence tyranny of words.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: The tyranny of words

Post by shankarank »

It has now turned into a tyranny of the poetic title! :lol: As I said , just treat the sAhitya as sangIta , don't dwell too much on what it means in public. Reflect on it in your own time! ;) :D

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