Carnatic music and tourism

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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Ponbhairavi
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Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Carnatic music and tourism

Post by Ponbhairavi »

Music and tourism.
I was browsing through Google images of madurai to see how it projects the city's "image". Out of a couple of hundreds there are inter alia photos of turmeric plants, pictures of madurai" idlies" , jasmine flowers ,jallikattu. But there is not a single photo of those who have immortalized the name of this city by invariably carrying it along with their own wherever they travelled during their life time : Madurai Shanmugavadivu Subbulakshmi, Madurai Mani Iyer, Madurai Somu, Madurai T.N Seshagopalan etc...
Then I browsed through through the google images of Tiruvarur, the bithplace of the musical Trinity. The situation appeared to be slightly better. Out of a couple of hundreds of pictures there were photos of those who have brought an indelible mark to the history of this town like our former TN chief minister, his famous Son, etc. The music world has reason to be happy as the son of the soil mridanga vidwan sri Tiruvarur Bakthavatsalam ,has three photos including the one withRa Ga sisters. Though there is no picture of sri Thyagaraja himself one photo of his house from outside also finds a place.But the other two of the Trinity who have their memorials in the town are not so lucky. What I have in mind is:
1- can our Rasikas forum write to Google to include the photos of those left out.
2- Can we think of a project of making a cultural map of Tamil Nadu by composing a "musical map" (including dance )of tamil nadu like we have physical geography maps , agricultural maps , industrial maps. Etc. they can spot out the location of remote places like semmangudi, oothukadu , anaiyampatti,pandanallur etc..with the names and pictures of those who have immortalized them in space and time?




Sent from my iPad

MaheshS
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by MaheshS »

Ponbhairavi wrote:Music and tourism.
I was browsing through Google images of madurai to see how it projects the city's "image". Out of a couple of hundreds there are inter alia photos of turmeric plants, pictures of madurai" idlies" , jasmine flowers ,jallikattu. But there is not a single photo of those who have immortalized the name of this city by invariably carrying it along with their own wherever they travelled during their life time : Madurai Shanmugavadivu Subbulakshmi, Madurai Mani Iyer, Madurai Somu, Madurai T.N Seshagopalan etc...
No offence meant, but picking Madurai is a bad analogy, it's far too older and carnatic music is but a very miniscule part of the city's history through the ages. It had the famous Tamil Sangams, it has two padai vidu's nearby as though the same son is protecting her Mum and Dad in the city. If Chennai now and before that Tanjavoor can call itself the epi centre of carnatic music, the Madurai can claim to be the epi centre of Tamil herself.

I am a proper Madurai-karan, was there from birth till I moved when I was aged 20 or so. Entire schooling, and a BSc from Madura College. My Dad and all his brothers [including TNS, they were all class mates] were Sethupathi High School Alumini. Where Bharathiyar himself teached.

Much as I *love* Somu, MSS, MMI, TNS and the very famous sons and daugthers of this legendary city, I would just say they don't and didn't make the city famous.

Madurai will always be famous for Tamil, Meenakshi and Malligai-poo.

/sorry for the digression.

Ponbhairavi
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Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by Ponbhairavi »

I withdraw the word "immortalized" and substitute it by
"propagated , although this city famous for Tamil,Meenakshi and malligai poo since more than two millennia did not need any propaganda from anybody"
Will this be OK.?

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by rajeshnat »

MaheshS,
You are usually a persona of nice temper and perhaps the madurai aggression is slightly there to immediately kill a nice idea . I like the idea of rajagopalan sir , we can do a map for sure though the crowded hamlets around kumbakonam will have to more zoom area.

Ponbhairavi,
While madurai shanmughavadivu subhalakshmi was born in madurai and sufficiently resided in madurai to learn music, TNS was born in nagapattinam and has learnt sufficiently staying at madurai and also working in music college at madurai. Madurai Somu some of them say he was born in mayavaram some say in swamimalai , I am assuming he has very little to do with madurai . But hey it is okay all three have madurai , we cannot rechristen them as nagapattinam Seshagopalan and mayavaram/swamimalai somu now .

ganesh_mourthy
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Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

I am not sure if google deliberately tasks itself to project the characteristics of a city and its personality. As far as google , it goes with click and search count. If there are people more and more typing " Madurai meenakshi temple " , then there is a high probability that the temple images is prioritized by google. You could simply type Madurai in google and it completes with Meenakshi , kamaraj university , Madurai to Kodai , madurai medical college. From this U can understand there is not even malligai poo . There will not be too many query related to jasmine unless you are curious to research on it , which people rarely do.

I am not sure people would ever want to search "Carnatic music in Madurai". I have visited Madurai several times and the demographic is very different. One of my American friends wanted to learn music and it was hard to find even a teacher, unlike in Chennai. And those in TVS and SS colony are not keen to learn music. I have known many many of them. The place around the Temple is more mercantile than cultural. It is a real " thoonga nagaram".

And , out of interest , Ponbhairavi Sir, do you hail from Madurai? Why particularly Madurai? I think Carnatic may show up more in CBE than Madurai, as it is more happening there, compared to Madurai.

You could read the below link
https://www.quora.com/How-does-google-i ... ngine-work

Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by Ponbhairavi »

I am NOT a native of Madurai, I have No relative , No friends,at Madurai. I have no motive neither for nor against Madurai. The centenary celebrations took my thought to MSS and I wanted to see whether the Bharat Ratna has a place in the touristic map of that city.Then my interest in music took me to check up the position at the place of the Trinity where also I have no relative
My only interest is whether we can incorporate music legends in tourism
I thank Rajesh.
I thank also others for their valuable inputs.
Nothing personal please.

sridhar_ranga
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:36

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by sridhar_ranga »

But there is not a single photo of those who have immortalized the name of this city by invariably carrying it along with their own wherever they travelled during their life time : Madurai Shanmugavadivu Subbulakshmi, Madurai Mani Iyer, Madurai Somu, Madurai T.N Seshagopalan etc...
I am sure we can add a few more names to Madurai's CM hall of fame:

Madurai Pushpavanam Iyer, his daughter Rajam Pushpavanam - and of course Mani Iyer from the same family. TVS partly - as his mother is the sister of MMI
The great Nadaswaram maestro Madurai Ponnuswami Pillai, and his lineage: son Nataraja (or Natesa?) Pillai, grandsons MPN Sethuraman, MPN Ponnusami
One of the earliest female Nadaswaram players, Madurai Ponnuthaayi - we have discussed here here in Rasikas a couple of years ago I think

Didn't Ambujam Krishna live in Madurai? Arasi can tell us.

Madurai is now home to excellent artistes like Sherthalai Ranganatha Sharma and Thoppur Sairam who live and teach music in the City.
I think Carnatic may show up more in CBE than Madurai, as it is more happening there, compared to Madurai.
perhaps more concerts happen in CBE than MDU these days, and CBE probably has more CM students, if I understand your drift g_m. But I have memories of a vibrant music scene in Madurai from 3 decades ago - there were / are two music colleges in MDU at least, run by the government and the Sadhguru Sangeeta Samajam. Concerts used to happen regularly in the Meenakshi temple during various festivals including Navaratri. Concerts also happened at the Samajam/ Lakshmi Sundaram hall, and other venues in SS Colony and TVS Nagar, etc. I have fond memories of listening to crowd pullers like KJ Yesudas and Kunnakkudi sitting in the breeze-filled ADi veethi, as well as an occasional TNS kutchery at the Brahmana Kalyana Mahal. Many cousins, schoolmates and a sibling were busy learning Veena/ Violin/ Vocal or Mridangam although I suspect they dust off and play their instruments only on Vijaya dasami these days :-) I hardly get to visit/ spend time in Madurai these days, and if what g_m says is true, it's really a sad thing....I hope forumites in Madurai (are there any?) can tell us that things are not so bad!

MaheshS
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by MaheshS »

Ponbhairavi - Apologies, I didn't mean to come across that way :/

ganesh_mourthy
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Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Let me apologize too if I sounded meddling. It was a basic curiosity to know where you come from. . I have lived in Madurai for a short while and that is my reason to ask and I know we are townsmen of Pondy.

MaheshS
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by MaheshS »

I have been pondering over this. Considering "carnatic music" culture that we know of is only say 150[?] years old, other than Thanjavoor, Chennai recently and Kumbakonam and Palakkad to an extent, *any* other city / town / village in Tamil Nadu will have not much other than their own illustrious history barring the odd musician.

Having said this, you can discuss it other way around.

Let's pick Madurai :)

Just a suggestion. We could start rasikas.org Shatla Purana series! List who has sung, who has played, who has composed, who comes from there, famous incidents etc and then you not only will get the history of the place but also learn about the musicians and music from the place. From peopel who have been there or going, some travel suggestions, photos etc. Small travel guide but with carnatic music as one of it's focus.

Carnatic music and tourism => Carnatic Music Tourism.

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by SrinathK »

Let's go back to the days of Silapaddikaram, yazhs, panns, thevarams and oduvars and start there.

kssr
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Joined: 30 Nov 2009, 15:28

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by kssr »

It indeed is a very interesting discussion. Incidentally, just about two weeks back, one gentleman in Bangalore discussed with me of the possibilities of promoting tourism with indian music. He is already doing things on these types of specialised tourism ideas, I am told.

There are two possibilities:
a. Design tours for the Carnatic music rasika/artists taking them to specialised places connected with CM. I think Madurai is being discussed here in that context. It could also be Chennai or Thanjavur. Could include instruments, museums, sculpture, history, yester year artists and so on. There are many ways of designing it.
b. Tourism for people interested in Indian music, either foreigners or NRIs. Can attend live concerts, discussion with artists. Some rudimentary and/or finer aspects of the science and art of CM can be introduced. Slide shows, photographs, personal visits with a historical perspective from the times of Azhwars, naayanmars to the current day.

Yes. Very nice ideas indeed.

vilomachapu
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Joined: 06 Jan 2016, 17:20

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by vilomachapu »

Madurai Ramaswamy Gautam, M.R.Gautam, the famous Hindustani vocalist belonged to Madurai.

kunthalavarali
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 01:30

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by kunthalavarali »

T M Soundararajan (playback singer) is from Madurai too,

vsn69
Posts: 152
Joined: 02 Oct 2017, 17:30

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by vsn69 »

sridhar_ranga wrote: 17 Aug 2016, 01:20
But there is not a single photo of those who have immortalized the name of this city by invariably carrying it along with their own wherever they travelled during their life time : Madurai Shanmugavadivu Subbulakshmi, Madurai Mani Iyer, Madurai Somu, Madurai T.N Seshagopalan etc...
I am sure we can add a few more names to Madurai's CM hall of fame:

Madurai Pushpavanam Iyer, his daughter Rajam Pushpavanam - and of course Mani Iyer from the same family. TVS partly - as his mother is the sister of MMI. The great Nadaswaram maestro Madurai Ponnuswami Pillai, and his lineage: son Nataraja (or Natesa?) Pillai, grandsons MPN Sethuraman, MPN Ponnusami. One of the earliest female Nadaswaram players, Madurai Ponnuthaayi - we have discussed here here in Rasikas a couple of years ago I think. Didn't Ambujam Krishna live in Madurai? Arasi can tell us. Madurai is now home to excellent artistes like Sherthalai Ranganatha Sharma and Thoppur Sairam who live and teach music in the City.

I am Rajam Pushpavanam's son and grandson of Sri Madurai Pushpavanam. My mother was born in Madurai but I think she was mostly raised in Thanjavur as my grandmother moved there, after Sri Pushpavanam's death, to be with her father.

prock1956
Posts: 1
Joined: 02 Jan 2018, 22:47

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by prock1956 »

Hello there,
There are so many places to visit in Madurai. Some best are given below.
Places to Visit in Madurai
Meenakshi Temple
Puthu Mandapam
Tirumalai Nayak Palace
Saint Mary's Cathedral
Banana Market
Thanks

harimau
Posts: 1819
Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by harimau »

rajeshnat wrote: 16 Aug 2016, 07:40
Ponbhairavi,
.... TNS was born in nagapattinam and has learnt sufficiently staying at madurai and also working in music college .....we cannot rechristen them as nagapattinam Seshagopalan.....
T N Seshagopalan expands to Thirukkurungudi Nambi Iyengar Seshagopalan. Using Google Maps, I locate Thirukkurungudi not anywhere in Madurai district but in Tirunelveli district.

So put Tirunelveli on the Carnatic tourism map. Add Ettayapuram where Sri Deekshithar breathed his last and the various temples where he composed songs on the deities.

vijay.siddharth
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Joined: 14 May 2017, 13:08

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by vijay.siddharth »

Harimau,

Wikipedia states his full name is Madurai Thirumalai Nambi Seshagopalan. Where did Thirukkurungudi come from?

Moreover, you don't need to be born in the town whose name is prefixed before your own. Hence, you can be any Ramayya from Pogalam who appends Papanasam before his name, or a Jayashree who appends Bombay before her name despite being born in Calcutta.

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by arasi »

TirunelvEli, TanjAvUr, then Madurai (southern madurai--vaDa madurai being mathurA as AndaL calls it ).
So, all of TN has musical history to explore. Isn't Sriram.V doing it with some of his excursions?

'vAzhga tamizh nADu, vAzhga vAzhgavE' comes to mind, and then the next long forgotten line: vIZhga jAti bhEdam, vIZhga vIzhgavE!' :(
Hail tamizh nADu! Down with caste differences...

harimau
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Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by harimau »

vijay.siddharth wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 08:25 Harimau,

Wikipedia states his full name is Madurai Thirumalai Nambi Seshagopalan. Where did Thirukkurungudi come from?

Moreover, you don't need to be born in the town whose name is prefixed before your own. Hence, you can be any Ramayya from Pogalam who appends Papanasam before his name, or a Jayashree who appends Bombay before her name despite being born in Calcutta.
Any Tom, Dick or Harry could write whatever they want on Wikipedia. I am only surprised that he is not named Tom Nambi Seshagopalan in Wikipedia.

Look up the write-up on Sri Seshagopalan in Sruti magazine:

http://srutimag.blogspot.in/2012/07/ses ... years.html

Ten years back I received the formal invitation for his sashtiabthapoorthy celebrations and I distinctly remember Thirukkurungudi mentioned in it. And there are two temples with the God named Nambi (Vaishnava Nambi and Nindra Nambi) in that village.

You don't carry the name of the town you were born at. You carry the name of your ancestral village. If your ancestors moved to some village with no intention of going back, that became their native village thereafter. Thus I am from Kidambi though tribal memory says we migrated from the banks of the Narmada river.

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by rajeshnat »

harimau wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 11:42 Thus I am from Kidambi though tribal memory says we migrated from the banks of the Narmada river.
Harimau,
Where is kidambi located , googling i find a temple hamlet kidambi near cuddalore famous for a srinivasa temple . I also know kidambi is associated bit with kanchipuram.

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by rajeshnat »

harimau wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 11:42 Any Tom, Dick or Harry could write whatever they want on Wikipedia. I am only surprised that he is not named Tom Nambi Seshagopalan in Wikipedia.

Look up the write-up on Sri Seshagopalan in Sruti magazine:

http://srutimag.blogspot.in/2012/07/ses ... years.html

Ten years back I received the formal invitation for his sashtiabthapoorthy celebrations and I distinctly remember Thirukkurungudi mentioned in it. And there are two temples with the God named Nambi (Vaishnava Nambi and Nindra Nambi) in that village.

You don't carry the name of the town you were born at. You carry the name of your ancestral village. If your ancestors moved to some village with no intention of going back, that became their native village thereafter. Thus I am from Kidambi though tribal memory says we migrated from the banks of the Narmada river.
Harimau,
As per the article that only says Nambi Iyengar was from the village Tirukkarunkudi. I also see that historically that Tirumalai Nambi was uncle of saint ramanujar. As such few of my friends in my college and elsewhere have names like Tirumalai Nambi. As such it may be possible The actual T in TNS stands only for Tirumalai, tirumalai may be a native reference for few generations or may be TNS appa was Tirumalai Nambi. I will not be dismissing that wiki is wrong to expand T as tirumalai . We just have to ask what does T exactly stand for , this can be known for sure.

On a side note when mahavidwan TRS moved on I asked his sister what does T stands for .She said Tiruvidaimarudhur as such I dont know where his roots were and I still am searching where TRS was born? All i know is that TRS mama appa is rajagopalan and T stands for Tiruvidaimarudhur which is in between kumbakonam and mayavaram , flute mali belongs to this place.

Hurry Move - Now I also know why you have a special liking for abhangs , you have an ancestral history of roots from Narmada river :lol:

Sundara Rajan
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Joined: 08 Apr 2007, 08:19

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by Sundara Rajan »

How come there is no mention of Tiruchirappalli in this connection ? Tiruchi's suburbs Alathur was the home town of Alathur Venkatesa Iyer, guru of Alathur Brothers; Lagudi Jayaraman is from Lalgudi, Clarinet vidvan AKC Natarajan hails from Tiruchi. Sathur AG Subramanyam lived and taught music there. NanRudayan Kovil annual music festival, where all great vidvans of the time used to sing in the Forties and Fifties. That is where I developed some taste for carnatic music. Even today I understand there are several sabhas there supporting carnatic concerts.

harimau
Posts: 1819
Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: Carnatic music and tourism

Post by harimau »

rajeshnat wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 14:26
harimau wrote: 13 Jan 2018, 11:42 Any Tom, Dick or Harry could write whatever they want on Wikipedia. I am only surprised that he is not named Tom Nambi Seshagopalan in Wikipedia.

Look up the write-up on Sri Seshagopalan in Sruti magazine:

http://srutimag.blogspot.in/2012/07/ses ... years.html

Ten years back I received the formal invitation for his sashtiabthapoorthy celebrations and I distinctly remember Thirukkurungudi mentioned in it. And there are two temples with the God named Nambi (Vaishnava Nambi and Nindra Nambi) in that village.

You don't carry the name of the town you were born at. You carry the name of your ancestral village. If your ancestors moved to some village with no intention of going back, that became their native village thereafter. Thus I am from Kidambi though tribal memory says we migrated from the banks of the Narmada river.
Harimau,
As per the article that only says Nambi Iyengar was from the village Tirukkarunkudi. I also see that historically that Tirumalai Nambi was uncle of saint ramanujar. As such few of my friends in my college and elsewhere have names like Tirumalai Nambi. As such it may be possible The actual T in TNS stands only for Tirumalai, tirumalai may be a native reference for few generations or may be TNS appa was Tirumalai Nambi. I will not be dismissing that wiki is wrong to expand T as tirumalai . We just have to ask what does T exactly stand for , this can be known for sure.

On a side note when mahavidwan TRS moved on I asked his sister what does T stands for .She said Tiruvidaimarudhur as such I dont know where his roots were and I still am searching where TRS was born? All i know is that TRS mama appa is rajagopalan and T stands for Tiruvidaimarudhur which is in between kumbakonam and mayavaram , flute mali belongs to this place.

Hurry Move - Now I also know why you have a special liking for abhangs , you have an ancestral history of roots from Narmada river :lol:
Why don't you ask TNS Krishna next time you see him in a concert?

By the way, Krishna's son's ayush homam was celebrated recently. The invitation read in Tamil 'Tirukkurungudi Seshagopaladasan requests your honored presence....'.

So I would venture to say that the 'T' stands for Tirukkurungudi.

PS. I love the invitations from Sri Vaishnava families. Where else do you get addressed as 'Upaya Vedantachariar' and many similar honorifics?

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