Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by RSR »

shankarank-> Excuse me Sir. . I visit a number of sites everyday, hunting for information on lyrics. There ARE a number of sites which make use of straight method as in the example shown by me. This is very close to one of the internationally accepted methods of transliteration. Even Google has not yet succeeded in getting the original from transliterated text. It seems to be as yet, an one way process. If our effort is to have any 'automated' task in mind, then , it has to adopt an internationally accepted standard. ( any one of them). I browsed through the various methods and chose the one that does not need capitalization. I am not sure if it is useful for two way transliteration .(ie) Assume that we have three panes. We paste the thamizh version in pane-1 and click a button "to english'. It appears in pane-2. Then we click button-2 . The original thamizh should appear in pane3. ( transliteration from english to thamizh). .. Till we finalize, why not write as 'thamizh' and 'samskrutham' (samskritam'?). 'mathru' bootham'
andru' vanthaan 'sendru' vaarungalll' 'aen pallli kondeerayyaa' etc may be easier ? . Using ta where we can easily use tha, is really jarring. I have noted the clarifications by you. Thank you.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by shankarank »

In that same sentence I was committing a faux pas - writing samskRtam as samskritam :oops: ;) . Your angst is well taken thanks.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by RSR »

shankarank-> Never mind Sir. ....May I share this long article , which I think is relevant to our discussion?
http://www.happinessofbeing.com/transliteration.html. I found it very nice.

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by rshankar »

RSR wrote: Using ta where we can easily use tha, is really jarring.
A contrary view:
Using th is NOT the answer - it may work for tamizh and tamizh alone - but most of us want a scheme that can be used across languages (including tamizh, and not primarily tamizh), because if th is used for त, what would we use for थ? ttha is not the answer, because what would we use for त्थ then?

For me the use of tha for ta/त is not just jarring, it is actually incorrect.... same applies to sounds like ट and ठ (written by many of us as Ta and Tha respectively), द and ध (da and dha respectively), ड and ढ (Da and Dha respectively), etc. dhasharatha may be perfectly adequate to write தசரத, BUT, would be inadequate for दशरथ (the actual name).

These are not mere phonetics, but make a huge difference to the language. For example, தாயுமானவர் (tAyumAnavar) is not mAtRbUta/maatruboota (मातृबूतम्) in sanskRt (संस्कृत) - it is mAtRbhUta (मातृभूतम्). AFAIK, bUta (बूत) has no meaning.

Another issue using 'tru' or 'tri' is that त्रु (tru) or त्रि (tri) will not be correct if the original is actually तृ - a distinction that may be completely irrelevant to tamizh, but not to other languages.

Using of aa for आ (instead of A) and so on for other similar vowel sounds is, IMO an appropriate alternative.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by RSR »

rshankar-> May be. .. .. Velthuis too , which I prefer, is an international standard . .May I know your opinion? .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devanagar ... iteration.

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by rshankar »

My issue with Velthuis is the presence of periods (.), and quotes (") inside, which makes the reading of the scrip way more jarring to me than capitals...
I do not think that one system is better than the other for the dEvnAgari script. It's either six of one, or half-a-dozen of the other - but for me, and several other, it's easier to read 'tha' as थ, and not '.tha', and 'Da' as ड and not '.da', etc....

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by shankarank »

vasanthakokilam wrote: A lot of that use is seen in stone inscriptions, recording who the king was, what he was about etc.
You gave me quite a handle to jump in and pour out!. So let me do that without forgoing the opportunity.

My "set in Stone" is a live stone inside the garbha gRhA - where the metrical chandas ( the jaw bone movements) is enshrined.

"kalinALLukirangi kallile irangi".

All knowledge and even material knowledge flourishes around that eco-system. Knowledge that was once transmitted via guru kulams with BhAvArta.

Not the dead stones in kal-veTTus and kallarais interpreted by archaelogists according to their world view ( mostly marxist) !
vasanthakokilam wrote:Consider this example of how beautiful and simple the Brahmi script is. All of us should learn this, it is so easy.
Image

For 'ka', they took the + sign and methodically added ornamentations to it for various consonant+vowel combinations. Similarly for 'la'. The ornamentations are consistent across consonants.
I am cross!! :shock: . Even the devout right wingers bemoan the lack of teaching of Italics and Curly in U.S public schools!! and they are proud how their daughter is able to write curly script.

We have quite some Curvy sculptures in our temples ;). Every posture there is a fountain of experiential knowledge.

Many parents spend 10K visting Europe for a family of four to view the colonial history including the Shilpams taken from India in the museums.

But they bemoan the expense of Bharata nATya arangETrams - in addition to envying some extravagant examples of others doing it. Their daughter is a store house of knowledge in that 2.5 plus hours - transmitting bhAvArta - for chandas filled verses sung from the sides. The static postures are a continuum of dynamic smooth movements - in sharp contrast to the step dances - the metaphor of gamaka in swaras ending in Sruti ( kriya - viSranti metaphor!!).

Whether done extravagantly or simply - if only they view it with yajna bhava - then the all round immediate benefits are apparent!. So many people come and connect with each other in the backdrop of samskRti! Knowledge is disseminated. Supporting artistes earn their livelihood. People are fed. Caterers / Building halls earn their share of the money.

Their Daughter gets to put it in her resume for Harvard/Yale!

And then there are the unseen benefits of generational communication which may sustain for 100s of years to come!

Parents may gain social status - more so, the more extravagant the event , even if some people begrudge that which is fine - but the Sages silently confer the status of Yajaman on them - if only they care to recognize it.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by RSR »

So be it. Tastes differ. .Any way, when I pasted the thamizh stanza in my first attempt,, little did I know that people who cannot even read thamizh script should be given the chance to reply. . I got wiser. Thereafter, I just gave the audio. or even the first line of the song. Wonder! Rsankar replied correctly and propmtly. . gleaning the ragams from the audio. For any query regarding the ragam, the correct method may be just give a link to the audio. Lyrics have nothing to do with that. As I wont be posting any query about ragam information hereafter ( based on lyrics), let us drop the matter. ... I suppose the same method can be used for lyrics also. ( give the audio as sung by the musician). Translation ( may be -rough ) is more important in appreciating the theme. .. ..Let me consider an example. MS has sung DKRoy's Pathithoddhaarini Gange. .Now, DK Roy was supposed to be against 'supersitious ' beliefs. and a bengali writer had given the TRANSLATION as youtube slides. ( unfortunately, as the song also was in that upload, saregama has muted it. on copyright issues). Our Lakshmanan has given transliteration. But I am only interested in the message of the song. How a rationalist like DKRoy sang that lyric . Not that I decry ..just want to understand the mindset. All these have absolutely no relation to the music of the song. ( my primary area of interest). I think , the query ( not put by me ) for this song's meaning and translation( not transliteration) has been pending for very long time. ( many years now). ...while the transliteration came in lightning speed. . My suggestion is that we should have forum members from all Indian languages, who can read the native script and translate and reply. if interested. or give a link to the page where we can get the translation in English. I think , you know thamizh very well and when you come across a thamizh post or translation, you yourself are competent to approve or point out deficiencies...

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

Post by shankarank »

Sri RSR, I am not fighting against taste differences. Parents are duty bound expose the child to most everything.

I am referring to parents who have already spent countless hours driving their daughter to classes and invested a lot of their time ( and some money) into learning the BharatanATyam. If they genuinely don't believe in arangEtram as an activity in the pursuit of excellence in their daughter's learning of the art form - that I can understand assuming she seriously pursues that art. But most children have this pressure from teachers and sometimes an arangETram like event is what motivates them to practice some tough pieces - in that case I appeal to the parents to support that effort wholeheartedly.

As regards drawing further contrast - any Navaratri Golu has many displays these days - not just mUrtis. And that in itself is instructive to be used to teach the contrast. The Idols collected from all the tours to Europe , Dubai , London and Singapore - vs. the mUrtis. I was a witness to one such - and the father hailing from South of India also was drying a Conch Shell from sea shores of tiruchendur to remove it's smell. I told him it has bathed in rama setu and tiruchendur puNya tIrtams and is not a collectible. That Sankham is held by ViShnu as a Symbhol of 5 tIrtAs ( panchajanyam) from samdura manthan is in addition a reference for us.

And we all closed it onto our ears and could hear the cavity resonance of the surrounding noise - mystically associated with the Ocean's noise.

I should tell you there were two microwave IC design engineers in the room who did not say anything about this. Myself just read it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seashell_resonance - and look at the title of every reference citation at the bottom. Fascinating!!!

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