The great tambura/tanpura scam

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Nick H
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by Nick H »

I see tamburas on stage quite regularly. I see vocalists tuning them (although I suppose that if the tambura artist is indeed a tambura artist, that they are capable?) and I sometimes see artists asking that a tambura be played closer to their ear. I suppose from this that there must be something that the vocalists gains from the tambura that they do not get from the electronic box which is making a much louder noise. Sometimes louder than the vocalist.

But, whatever it is the vocalist is getting seems not to be for sharing. I do not see the tambura miced, and I do not hear it.

uday_shankar
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by uday_shankar »

Image

Nick, to better describe the situation, I created a new word... it will help us distinguish between the Miraj Tamburas and Mirage Shamburas on stage... keep in mind, an artist often starts off with the best of intentions but succumbs to practical difficulties thereby transforming his Tambura to a mere Shambura. It's not easy...

srikant1987
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by srikant1987 »

On the contrary electronic shruti boxes, especially the newer ones like iTanpura are extremely accurate and don't drift for the life of the universe. Nothing "approximate" about them. So that's not the reason why it's not a great idea to use them. But if we consider the real tambura another real instrument with it's own timber and life and musical value
All that's fine. My intent was to say it's better to have an electronic (lifeless but "perfect") version alongside instead of a real tambura with upset tuning. An electronic version is ALSO better than just singing / playing around silence.

shambura < silence < electronic tambura < tambura with well-nurtured life

Don't make good an enemy of the best. :)

uday_shankar
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by uday_shankar »

srikanth, I believe we are on the same side... actually there are no sides ... we are all on the same side ... the side of good music, good sound, etc..

shankarank
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 19 Jun 2017, 22:25
shankarank wrote: 19 Jun 2017, 20:26Reason why I phrased it as "Einstein Prefers.." not " Nature Prefers"...
Agreed, although I have a vague discomfort to ascribe to nature any preference; it never ceases to amaze me that the models and mathematical constructs of cumulative human imagination should so well explain all the experimental data gathered from "nature" (and spectacularly not explain it in some cases).
Old Albert's famous quote :
The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible!
Leading to the formulation of Strong and Weak Anthropic principles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

shankarank
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 17 Jun 2017, 19:39 I suppose it was the TMK-RKSK thing at Raga Sudha last week...
Here is the write up on that: http://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/m ... 054932.ece
How did we not miss the mridangam?

Can one say the mridangam was playing in the collective subconscious? We all know how the mridangam goes during that last swaying sangati of ‘Ma Janaki’ or how it could build up a gripping tapestry during the higher sancharas of ‘Mokshamu Galada.’ One may perform without a violin, a mridangam, and most importantly, without a list.

What then is truly essential to the Carnatic experience? The tambura, raga and tala? Perhaps!
It would be worthwhile to perform a thought experiment ( not sure if it will be actuated in reality) - what If he had sung
this sAhitya : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH733revdRQ I think a Mridangam in a certain sense will be missed for this one. Even as a viruttam the lines may sound incongruous.

If an artiste looks at the lyrics during singing for a often sung tyAgaraja piece - it could be termed cautious. Here the conclusion I would take is different - it is not just that this is an unusual composition, even otherwise just the metrical flow is not helping. That says about how much of inspiring music is in it.

The term tAla cannot be appropriate attribute to describe this. tAla is simply a constraint here.

VK had asked me to explain what I meant by viSrAnti in koluvai. There is also an SRJ Lecdem with an Adi tAla composition of Annamacharya where Bhairavi has been used to tune it. I am unable to find the recording! But you could see the incongruity.

Bhairavi as we know today has been milled in the vArNams and kritis like koluvai. Thyagaraja may not have specified the sangatIs in koluvai, but the reason sangatIs could be developed is because of the viSrAnti in the kriti. The trinity in most cases don't have to have composed the full music, the system takes care of it! Scope for sAdhana is there even if there is no improvisation on stage!.

Between koluvai and bAla gopAla, I choose koluvai for seemingly random kArvais that fall into place once rendered. Diskhitar had more help from Sanskrit! I am not qualified to talk about the Bhairavi or it's praYOgams between the two. This is an observation in time scale only.

If you listen to CSM's accompaniment here - https://www.sangeethamshare.org/rao_sha ... 1-TNS_TIS/, he could come in and out whenever he pleases and adds effect , in what could be termed a very unusual and unique accompaniment - but it takes a lot of exposure to see that this is from a great tradition! I have heard from those well trained in music ( those that gave concerts ) dismiss CSM's playing in the HMB release for TNS as: what is he doing? So even within the very familiar set of people - we have this gap - of hearing the same hackneyed Mridangam accompaniments of the 90s.

My comment on what TMK is doing is this:

1) He knows he has to bank on the art music ( as he calls it ) of the Trinity. He has classified un-artful music as religiously inspired. No consideration for evolution of metrical structures alongside rAgas.

It is very likely that the Trinity were hearing quite well evolved Mridangam - even if they were just tEkas. The foot print is there in the compositions. I wouldn't call it tAla pragnya - as the tAla has been translated as rhythm / beats / time period markers already. I am forced to introduce the term viSrAnti aware. The different tAlas don't matter - they are specific forms. And we see why they did not do too many in too complex tAlas even within the 35! Their syllabic positions followed common principles in different tAlas. In addition they had vArNams to bank on as well as padams with good metrical structure!

2) The audience ( those that have that ear to any music) that he is trying to reach out to may be enamored by a new melody - but have been simply robbed of the kind of rhythmic appreciation due to constant exposure to the rhythm in popular genres!

We know where that came from and is being talked about very early in the history:

https://archive.org/stream/musicofindia ... 3/mode/2up

From Chapter 5 : Tala or Time measures
Anyone who studies the Indian prosody can see the great difficulty to say the least of obtaining a pleasurable result from combining Indian Verse with Western tunes. One of the most difficult things for the foreigner to get away from in an Indian vernacular is the stressing of the syllables. The division into words is not at all important in Indian verse, and so the music does not take particular note of this. In India words are more often set to music rather than music to words. It is easy to see then the importance of time-measure in Indian music. The westerner often finds these time measures far more difficult to master than melodies, strange though those often are
3) So he can slow this down and show the melody sans rhythmic flow and try his luck!!

So it goes from Audience outsourcing rasa to the musician, musician outsourcing Sruti to electronics, make a show of aesthetics , audience not having exposure to rhythmic flow , musician getting rid of tAlam and Mridangam altogether.

This is a spectator audience viewing something of the lost past in a museum!!

sureshvv
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 21 Jun 2017, 10:51
uday_shankar wrote: 17 Jun 2017, 19:39 I suppose it was the TMK-RKSK thing at Raga Sudha last week...
Here is the write up on that: http://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/m ... 054932.ece
What then is truly essential to the Carnatic experience? The tambura, raga and tala? Perhaps!
Not so fast. Let us wait for the next concert!

uday_shankar
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by uday_shankar »

shankarank
Agree with most everything in your last post, very important and meaningful thoughts.

Some more thoughts on the following:
shankarank wrote: 21 Jun 2017, 10:51
No consideration for evolution of metrical structures alongside rAgas.

It is very likely that the Trinity were hearing quite well evolved Mridangam - even if they were just tEkas. The foot print is there in the compositions. I wouldn't call it tAla pragnya - as the tAla has been translated as rhythm / beats / time period markers already. I am forced to introduce the term viSrAnti aware. The different tAlas don't matter - they are specific forms. And we see why they did not do too many in too complex tAlas even within the 35! Their syllabic positions followed common principles in different tAlas. In addition they had vArNams to bank on as well as padams with good metrical structure!
Ain't that the truth !

In this context, any thoughts on the recently unearthed and disseminated OVK kritis (over and above the alai paayudes and thaaye yashoda, good as they are) ? They are a testament to the melding of raga, tala, sahitya and jathis into a wonderful whole - would be a huge loss to sing/play any of them without good mridangam accompaniment. And only an idiot would say they are not "art" music :).

Nick H
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by Nick H »

shankarank wrote: 21 Jun 2017, 10:51So it goes from Audience outsourcing rasa to the musician, musician outsourcing Sruti to electronics, make a show of aesthetics , audience not having exposure to rhythmic flow , musician getting rid of tAlam and Mridangam altogether.
So far as I am aware, TMK's no-mridangam concert was not no-talam. Whilst his concert format may be eccentric (eg, alapana, thanam, kalpana swara), I think that, when he was singing songs, he was putting and singing to talam.

SureshVV could confirm.

sureshvv
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by sureshvv »

Yes. Talam was definitely maintained. Kalapramanam was slow and hence would have been a challenge for any mrdangist.

shankarank
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote: 21 Jun 2017, 12:18 And only an idiot would say they are not "art" music :).
Well we have to question this category of "art" music which is challenging "classical" music - the latter is some unquestioningly accepted status symbhol term! It is an adopted term more to distinguish from film pop music, than folk music! Some seminar giver in kalakshetra might do that distinction - but outside in popular usage there is no such implication of classical vs. folk!



With Annamacharya himself , if you cannot enjoy the flow of syllables in : ghaTi ghaTita mEkhalA kacitamaNi khaNDikA - you are not an honest rasika of karnAtaka sangItam - so there falls the MSS story of Art music vs Bhakti music! Whether a whole concert can be given on this in todays milieu? - different question.

I liked the Charulatha Ramanujam's vocal sans Mridangam in a house concert that varsha posted once ! A every genuine way to treat his songs. But Bhairavi ? I have doubts.

And OVK kritis - I heard an old lady visiting Dallas , who had learnt from Sri Needamangalam Krishnamurthi Bhagavatar sing brilliantly some unheard kritis - that was an experience. OVK definitely a pathway culminating in the viSranti of the trinity. For a strong grip on tala, learning OVK kritis is essential - many of our amateur musicians consistently weak in maintaining tAlam - weaker than American born kids in fact - this is definitely helpful!
Last edited by shankarank on 22 Jun 2017, 10:24, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: 21 Jun 2017, 22:25 Yes. Talam was definitely maintained. Kalapramanam was slow and hence would have been a challenge for any mrdangist.
I have attended one such concert and I know when music becomes an experience for himself - what happens then! ;)

sureshvv
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: 22 Jun 2017, 10:24

I have attended one such concert and I know when music becomes an experience for himself - what happens then! ;)
I have no problem with that. When it becomes an experience only for himself, that would be a problem.

rshankar
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by rshankar »

shankarank wrote: 22 Jun 2017, 10:22With Annamacharya himself , if you cannot enjoy the flow of syllables in ghaTi ghaTita mEkhalA kacitamaNi khaNDikA
I am not sure if I could: shouldn't it be कटि घटित मेखला खचित मणि घण्टिका (kaTi ghaTita mEkhalA khacita maNi ghaNtikA)

shankarank
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by shankarank »

rshankar, thanks for correcting. A faithful editor for me :D . I referred to a site that I consider authentic and a cross reference is a tamizh edition I have :oops: - both I couldn't rely on . Thanks again. Nevertheless I suppose you enjoyed the actual rendition - just not my transcribing of it ;)

sureshvv
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by sureshvv »

rshankar wrote: 22 Jun 2017, 22:01
shankarank wrote: 22 Jun 2017, 10:22With Annamacharya himself , if you cannot enjoy the flow of syllables in ghaTi ghaTita mEkhalA kacitamaNi khaNDikA
I am not sure if I could: shouldn't it be कटि घटित मेखला खचित मणि घण्टिका (kaTi ghaTita mEkhalA khacita maNi ghaNtikA)
In shankarank's defense, see http://www.karnatik.com/c1602.shtml

Sachi_R
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by Sachi_R »

Suresh, R shankar, it is a constant source of alternating frustration and amusement for me to see the prolific, wrongly typed sources on the Net for Samskrita verses.
See how विभ्राजमानम् is transliterated in the same link you shared... And so on.

rshankar
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by rshankar »

Sachi_R wrote: 23 Jun 2017, 16:22See how विभ्राजमानम् is transliterated in the same link you shared... And so on.
Yes...I see the 'devil' introduced when the initial transcription using tamizh script was re-transcribed! As you can see, it is the k/kh and the g/gh; the p/ph and b/bh; and the T/Th and D/Dh reversals that are suffering in these examples.

Thankfully, in Smt. MSS' rendition, the bells encrusted in kRshNa's waist-belt tinkle and shine appropriately :)

shankarank
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by shankarank »

Would khaNDika mean some of them would separate and fall apart?

rshankar
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by rshankar »

shankarank wrote: 23 Jun 2017, 19:28Would khaNDika mean some of them would separate and fall apart?
Take your pick: khaNDika m. " one who learns section by section of a work ", pupil; the armpit; N. of a man; m. pl.N. of a people. Have no idea how this would fit into the mEkhalA...

shankarank
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Re: The great tambura/tanpura scam

Post by shankarank »

Now you stop looking at monier williams and start thinking on your own - will you? :evil: :lol: :twisted: :lol:

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