Caste in Carnatic Music

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Let's do away with this time tested debate.

I REPEAT my plea!

[vijay.siddharth]

With due respects ultimately, what is your point? And what is that you are trying to achieve or state or correct by starting this thread? No Sarcasm here. Am trying to ask this in the most constructive manner possible.

I was merely trying to compare musical styles between musicians from non-Brahmin and Brahmin backgrounds. I seriously didn't expect the discussion to flame up into a detailed discussion on whether or not Brahmins are persecuted in today's India, nor did I have much of a role in the discussion. My point, I realise now, is that talking about caste here is a very dangerous and volatile matter with vitriol seeping out from every Lilliputian crevice (existent or not).

[Nick H]

Curious that you make no mention of nadaswaram.

[vijay.siddharth]

Respected Sir

I am no expert in Nadaswaram music (something I wish to remedy in the coming season)! I listen more to veena music

[kvchellappa]

Nick's point is perhaps about nadaswaram artists who played a great role in CM, who are not Brahmins (with rare exceptions).
It is no doubt a contentious topic.
Having brought it up (not a welcome move for getting a hold on music), it is not fair to criticise others for speaking their mind.
Quote: (My point, I realise now, is that talking about caste here is a very dangerous and volatile matter with vitriol seeping out from every Lilliputian crevice (existent or not).

[vijay.siddharth]

Dear sir,

I am absolutely clueless about Nadaswaram music; hence my silence.

[vgovindan]

Deleted

[Nick H]

I am no expert in Nadaswaram music

Neither am I. In fact, I confess that it does not suit my ears.

But yes, the point is that, if you must come here with this subject, why do so ignoring a whole part of the music which is, traditionally, not Brahmin.

Whether your intentions were genuine or not, varsha, semmu, and all have answered you well and that should be an end to it.

If you have a genuine question, you had better come back with it rephrased meaningfully. Until then, it would be a good idea if you stop just needling away at this thread, lest you convince us that you are just a troll.

[Nick H]

Guys, I think this thread is dead, but one last point. I just noticed Mr vijay's first post here

Hello everyone! As my id suggests, my name is Vijay Siddharth, and I am 16 years old! I live in Singapore and LOVE Carnatic music. ... ... ...

It is not fair for us, who are all 17 or older, to expect him to know the world as well as we do.

Mr vijay, sorry I was rude. This thread should be a learning experience for you. But don't push it!

[shankarank]

Before it dies - let me put out some response ( it may not answer anything!) to vijay:

My Tamil is a very brahminized Tamil. Even worse, it is a very 'Iyengar' tamil (sometimes I revert to Saathumuthu and Thertham instead of Rasam and thanni (water)). I am made to feel very self-conscious about my accent, and, as a result, I am struggling in a crisis about whether or not to speak in Tamil, for the accent is frequently (and, to my irritation), inaccurately lampooned

You have to have played some cricket or gilli with people of various jAtis around in some place like Madurai, Trichy or Coimbatore or Nellai. Me and my brother will converse mostly in such a tamizh ( aanngna ) , many times even between ourselves , even as we may switch context to vAngO , pOngO, inside the home.

So just engage and pickup their lingo a bit. Nothing difficult!

I will make another post on how the Caste and CM thing from my eyes as a child ( it is one of those billion view points ) shaped up. It won't be vitriolic , or controvertial, but it will provide some back ground.

[shankarank]

I think this was the typical scenario in the 80s through the 90s – a picture of the brahminized Carnatic and societal scene.

One of my class mates hailing from a Saiva Pillai caste from Madurai ( mid 80s) - who made it to IIT and then made it to US Bachelors degree after abandoning it in 1 year - learnt music from a likely Brahmin teacher in his locality- and will participate in CM competitions which I would help organize in my school, was not considered as good. As the class would make me sing at other times - the crooner from tarangini cassettes of KJY. He would talk a lot of bad things about the devadasi system and how it was connived by brahmins etc. almost declaring bankruptcy against the musical heritage as a whole!

I was doing Adi talam in reverse fingering not from little finger! Of course I had the benefit of snoozing in the morning when my Grandpa ( a smArta in fact) gets up and recites "kulam tarum selvam tantiDum" of tirumangai Azhwar in chaste bEgaDa and me as a little boy , he took me around with a uncha vriddhi by a disciple of Gopalakrishna Bhagavatar of pudukOTTai and I have memories of seeing them spread the rice collection well past Noon at our temple. KritIs like enta nErchina - Saveri ( I heard Dr Sundar sing it recently after a long time) would be sung in bhajans - it is also part of the bhajanotsava manjari , a compilation with a photo of Gopalakrishna Bhagavatar in the foreword page.

I remember a Chettiar – likely the only non brahmin person in that audience speaking at a Sikkil Neela & Kunjumani concert in our temple with (vaguely remembering) may be KRM on Mridangam - and hearing about Brinda - Mukta mentioned with all greats! After that I heard about them in the U.S.

TNS concerts should have been regular somewhere else but not in Madurai within the reach of people like me. As we played cricket on the street, I would see him go in a scooter to teach some Mamis 10 blocks down. I heard about a concert of his with CS Murugabhoopathy after it happened again in a terrace 10 blocks down - my brother went to it. That was my only chance of hearing that great man (CSM) on Mridangam that never happened.

It is not until I came to study in Chennai - that I saw a full brahminical ghetto, inside the IIT - mostly from PSBB, Vidya Mandir. The rest of the student body from other states with Telugus, mostly the Reddy last names from Little flower convent in Hyderabad - and others from convent schools in Delhi, Calcultta. Except for one of those PSBBs who had a vAdyar come to his house for adyayanam - he knows to recite a lot of it including the karma kANDa brahmanAs (he was otherwise quite modernized in the swear words he used in English ), rest of them were already like they were from some American city! This was around 1988!

The music club had a good array of musicians show cased in my 4 years there. Ravi Kiran with Palghat Raghu and Palghat Sundaram, U Srinivas, TNS with not so good accompaniments, to even some obscure ones like Tadepalli Lokananatha Sarma. U Srinivas was featured in a Mardi Gra event in the Open Air theatre, stadium full with Palghat Raghu on Mridangam. Quite a few Lec Dems, Spic Macay etc.

As I travelled to Houston – I had two music lovers in the contingent, a student of TNS and another a relative of Usha Sagar – a disciple of Ramnad Krishnan - who was living in Houston. The TNS student shared some recordings and I also heard some real live recordings of TNS the first time ever. As regards Ramnad Krishnan , I am hearing about him the very first time in my life at Houston , the Madurai of America if you will. So a musician, a brahmin himself, hailing from about 100 miles from my city and represents if you will – two non brahmin lineages (Sankara Sivam, T Brinda ) of music is not known to many people down south!

The shock does not end there. As soon as we step into the Columbus Shipyard museum at Corpus Christi in a few days, the Spanish sailor trots out two names greeting us Desis with a namaste. After learning we were from down south He mentions KVN and Ramnad Krishnan. Imagine my surprise and shock!

I cherish a nice Bhajana parula by Usha Sagar as the tail piece of Thyagaraja Utsavam singing series at the Madurai of America - Meenakshi temple in Houston - 1994 I believe.

As of now, a colleague of mine, related to the Moopanar family distantly who has attended Tiruvaiyaru events many times in childhood, calls me only to find out about a NithyaShri concert that both of us couldn’t go this Spring series. He was inquisitive about how people would feel if he showed up there as well! So this concept of brahmins making others feel out of place is etched in the whole people’s mindset.

The Dravidian movement combined with urbanization of CM venues has achieved this up-root-ment successfully! Well prior to that how much of the Non brahmin populace outside of those who were close to the Zamindars and Samasthanams had any roots one may ask. But then by the same token how much of the Brahmins did. So the Indian freedom momentum did not capture the interest of one section as the other section made it as one of their identity.

Now Dravidian movement itself is being targeted by the so called Pure Tamizh movements as a false Telugu foist over the real tamizh people to protect the former’s land ownership. So as a potentially Telugu in disguise movement in retrospect it failed to absorb CM as heritage!

In the diaspora however, there quite a good number of kids from non brahmin families learning music and many more, dance. The Sri Lankan diaspora esp. in Canada are an example and they are the ones that are likely to protect tamizh as well.

In all this however, with all it’s status indicator ( I go to the Academy!) stuff around, the only reason the music is flourishing is because at the very core, people think there is some sacredness to it and the real CM people know that it is not due to the bhakti themes in songs – even though that is the narrative propaganda to the general CM populace.

[vgovindan]

Sankarank,
Thanks for the detailed post. IMHO, music has two sides - the artist and the listener. There may be ghettoisation of artists, but listeners are not. The bhakti aspect, as far artists are concerned, is a cliche. Artists are there to simply portray the bhAva of the music, yes, music and particularly lyrics. They are no more than actors. Actors don't turn into characters.

Music has two aspects - the bhajana tradition and profession. You have mentioned about Gopalakrishna Bhagavatar. I know him - I am also somewhat related to him. The kind of bhajans that person used to conduct was mesmerical. That declined after his demise. Be that as it may, he is only an example of bhajana paddhati which held on to music - not for sustenance - but as an instrument of expression of bhakti. What else is more profound than music to express one's yearning? This bhajana paddhati actually preserved music and developed to higher levels because of the depth that is achieved in musical renderings in their bhajana tradition. (You may dispute me whether music is more understood by professional artists or amateurs like Bhagavatas - it all depends on one's leanings). Purandara Dasa and Tyagaraja belonged to this paddhati. The influence of Telugu over CM is very pronounced because of this bhajana paddhati which is more prevalent in Telugu regions, but flourished more in Tamil region. Why there are not more Tamil compositions, may have something to do with the kind of rulership of Tamil Nadu - Tamil Nadu has been under non-Tamil rule for almost a thousand years.

I may confess that I have attended less concerts but listened more of bhakti music - particularly North Indian and TS Balakrishna Sastrigal. One may not recognise TSB as any great artist - who cares, what matters is the effect that is brought about on the individual - that also depends on what the leanings of the listener is.

But for the Dravidian movement, Tamil Nadu would have seen a more wholesome development of music - notwithstanding the regressive aspects like Devadasi system. We are not going to have another Balasaraswati - at least I do not see any because the dance tradition is more like that of CM Musicians only. Please also note that Devadasi system was prevalent equally in all parts of South. But why it is given more prominence here is because of the Dravidian movement. This movement saw the decline of Nadaswaram (Nadaswara vidwans and Devadasis are complimentaries) - in fact ex CM of Tamil Nadu - Karunanidhi belongs to this tradition. You can understand now why Nadaswaram declined in Tamil Nadu.

Where do we go from here - God alone knows. But I can sense the steep decline of music oriented bhajana paddhati - pravachanas are not substitute for bhajana - which is participatory in nature. I can see more orientation towards lakshana of music, than the depth. The same as a poem written for the sake of a prize vs a Subrahmanya Bharati who pours out the soul's yearning. It is now more of poetical nature - nothing to do with substance.

There are three terms - vAchyArtha - lakshyArtha - lakshya. We are now confined to vAchyArtha only - We are not touching on lakshyArtha, forget about lakshya. This lakshya belongs to humans - neither brahmin nor non-brahmin. Tirunalaippovar - the original version of Nandanar - is an example of that - the yearning. The more one is educated, the more he is conceited and brahmins are more educated.

[arasi]

Govindan,
So many things to mull over...
Thanks for sharing your thoughts (yearnings?)...in times when there are so many currents for the young to get carried away in. Certain things don't change though, history tells us--mainly, that yearning or that indescribable longing in humans which alone, thank goodness, spells true progress in human existence.
andariki vandanamu (salutations to all), those of glory who yearned)...

[shankarank]

You may dispute me whether music is more understood by professional artists or amateurs like Bhagavatas - it all depends on one's leanings

Bhajana tradition I believe developed its own refinement ( I would not use the term sophistication) within its own idiom as it was practiced! As regards professional music, paucity of sAdhakam, or lack of good captive talent to take up music and economic strain have taken their own toll and resorting to grammatical viewpoints is somewhat an escape route to project refinement. So each within its own has its own upliftment and downfall - no need to compare!

And I get the point about artistes vs Bhagavatars. I mentioned the latter only to show how one way rasikas could get developed , but nothing is set in stone there as well.

Be that as it may, he is only an example of bhajana paddhati which held on to music - not for sustenance - but as an instrument of expression of bhakti

I hope by stating what I remembered about Rice collections being spread I did not convey anything amiss. That I think is some sort of a ritual at the end of the unca vriddhi! I am not implying that in this instance that was their sustenance - by that time there were many ways! This Bhagavathar's son had a job as an attender in my school, but used to assist his father on those rounds about once a month or so!

notwithstanding the regressive aspects like Devadasi system

Lets not jump too fast in judgement! Many progressive thinkers are challenging the power structure of family! That may not be the same as any old system, but certainly that says that we cannot judge everything from vantage point of the familial existence! Humans have gamed well thought out constitutions with checks and balances - so we cannot go by the modalities of any system to judge it!

The influence of Telugu over CM is very pronounced because of this bhajana paddhati which is more prevalent in Telugu regions, but flourished more in Tamil region. Why there are not more Tamil compositions, may have something to do with the kind of rulership of Tamil Nadu - Tamil Nadu has been under non-Tamil rule for almost a thousand years

Sanskritists really dropped the mantle here. They were blinded by their success as clerks! With concepts like BhAshArUpa for the divine mother ( all languages are said to be residing in her!) they could not build a narrative to bridge this gap. New Tamizh compositions were out as soon as the music were reaching a lot of people.

Given the fact that it is the knowledge of English that helped us win freedom, even English is our language that we made it our own and joins the divine set! The English man cannot claim the reverse! It may not have been constructed with "Sound as divine" meta physics , but aren't we evolved enough to inject that spirit into it? That's my attitude!

The more one is educated, the more he is conceited and brahmins are more educated.

I believe gaining and cherishing experiential knowledge can compensate for what the intellectual education can do to a person.

[vijay.siddharth]

in fact ex CM of Tamil Nadu - Karunanidhi belongs to this tradition

Even more interestingly, he descended from a direct disciple of Muthuswami Dikshitar!!! I wonder what he had to say about things like Muruga coming and dropping sugar into Dikshitar's mouth to compose Sri Nathadi Guruguho or when he made rain fall by singing Anandamrithakarshini!

[vijay.siddharth]

So just engage and pickup their lingo a bit. Nothing difficult!

Dear sir

I am, unfortunately, not blessed with many friends good at Tamil. It would surprise you, but they think my Tamil is really good! If I picked up their lingo, I'd end up speaking Tamil like Namitha from Bigg Boss!!!!

(No offences intended)

[vijay.siddharth]

Mr vijay, sorry I was rude. This thread should be a learning experience for you. But don't push it!

Dear Sir

Please, don't apologise! My questions tend to be very, very tactless, and sometimes I don't realise that they are tactless too, so this is a very important learning experience for me.

Cheers

Siddharth

[Ponbhairavi]

Govindan,
Remarkable analysis, with thought provoking corollaries.
" Govindan wrote: this bhajanai paddathi actually preserved music and developed it to higher levelsthat is achieved in musical renderings"
In a bhajanai many bhagavathars with different levels of attainments participate with a unique sense of bhakthi bhava . Every one takes his turn in singing one of the charanams of the composition ands adds his imagination output in the raga rendering. This qualitative competition kindles inspiration mutually resulting in overall development. In a concert there are only two competitors ( the main artist and the " pakka vadhyam" , the former keeping his option as to when to turn off - and thi is the permanent grudgeof most violinists who yearn to become soloists.
Govindan wrote : " Tamil Nadu has been under non tamil rulers for almost a thousand years..."
Hence the language of the ruler has an advantage on several counts. This may be the reason whyO V K 's compositions, despite their clear superiority as brought out by shri Ravi kiran in his studies, did not get the attention and exposure they deserved.
Govindan wrote:-"but for the dravidian movement T N would have seen a more wholesome development..."
it is to be noted that most of the leaders of the dravidian movement( fromE V R to many others ")who proclaimed themselves as saviours of tamil language had telegu as mother tongue and in their house and privately talked in telegu only.their only aim was to pull down the brahmins andparticularly the sanscrit language and how many attempts have been made to veil the achiements of brahmins for the cause of tamil ( even Bharathy took more than 30 years for his recognition.

[vgovindan]

Sankarank
I am not qualified in music. But music is innate to humans. Here is a rendering of Chalamelara of Tyagaraja by Madurai Somu.
https://youtu.be/Og8ef76qBB0

This is not his best rendering, yet, in Hindi there is a saying 'hazaar khoon maaf' (all crimes forgiven - roughly) - that fits in. All his diction faults or pronunciation faults are forgiven - just for the bhAva. சங்கீதத்தில் கரைந்து போகமுடியுமா? (can one dissolve himself in Music) - that is a million dollar question. You may call me freak - well, I humbly accept it.

Why I am bringing it here? When one loses his conceitedness, music shines.

[vgovindan]

Ponbhairavi,
Thanks for your response.

[shankarank]

சங்கீதத்தில் கரைந்து போகமுடியுமா? (can one dissolve himself in Music) - that is a million dollar question. You may call me freak - well, I humbly accept it.

But that is a conundrum. Somu likely drew his staple from a forest full of flowers and fruits! An avid fan - who collects his recordings - I have met him - says this man , Somu went behind Nadasvaram Artistes like a crazy man!

But even Bhava has become a target of some shopping spree now, some musicians trying to tailor their music to emote!

[ram1999]

what is caste got to do with this ?? ridiculous !!
The opportunity given perhaps was because TMK was related to TTV and it is more a favoritism/special consideration !!

This was to draw contrast with Dandapani Desikar, who, according to Madurai GS Mani, was denied chances in the Academy (or any other Madras Sabha) was denied chances because of his caste. He was also disrespected in AIR and was treated more like a light music artiste despite the classicism in his music according to Sanjay Subhramanyam.

I suspect this is clearly a mischief mongering in the lines of TMK !!!

[Nick H]

I am, unfortunately, not blessed with many friends good at Tamil.

You live in a country where Tamil is one of the national languages, right?

And, according to what you have told us, you probably live with your family. Well, I suppose it could be that they are more proficient at Chinese or Malay.

[vijay.siddharth]

You live in a country where Tamil is one of the national languages, right?

I do, but, since I go to an international school, I am surrounded by Punjabis and Bengalis and Maharashtrians. The few people who I talk to in Tamil speak it like Namitha does (as I mentioned). The best Tamil I hear is from the newscasters on Vasantham TV- and that tamil is so pure, it is scary

And, according to what you have told us, you probably live with your family. Well, I suppose it could be that they are more proficient at Chinese or Malay.

My mother has, in fact, translated Kalki's Sivakamiyin Sabatham from Tamil to English. Her Tamil is very good (unlike mine ), but, since she grew up in Madras, she had more opportunities to speak it than me.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

.
About the Books
https://www.goodreads.com/series/102161 ... am-english
& the Author
http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/64 ... yaraghavan

[arasi]

Bala, super fast sleuth as always

Siddharth,
You are fortunate to be born in a family like yours I bet others in it are distinguished too
Hope your fervor for tamizh and music grows many fold in the coming years...

[sureshvv]

This was to draw contrast with Dandapani Desikar, who, according to Madurai GS Mani, was denied chances in the Academy (or any other Madras Sabha) was denied chances because of his caste. He was also disrespected in AIR and was treated more like a light music artiste despite the classicism in his music according to Sanjay Subhramanyam.

I suspect this is clearly a mischief mongering in the lines of TMK !!!

That Dandapani Desikar was not given his due by the CM establishment during his time is indisputable. That it was because of his caste is moot. The best we can do now is make up for it which the present day artistes are doing in numbers. I do not see any mischief mongering.

[kvjayan]

This was to draw contrast with Dandapani Desikar, who, according to Madurai GS Mani, was denied chances in the Academy (or any other Madras Sabha) was denied chances because of his caste. He was also disrespected in AIR and was treated more like a light music artiste despite the classicism in his music according to Sanjay Subhramanyam.

I suspect this is clearly a mischief mongering in the lines of TMK !!!

That Dandapani Desikar was not given his due by the CM establishment during his time is indisputable. That it was because of his caste is moot. The best we can do now is make up for it which the present day artistes are doing in numbers. I do not see any mischief mongering.

Apart from Desikar, Sirkazhi Govindarajan was also not given his due by the establishment.

[melam72]

Apart from Desikar, Sirkazhi Govindarajan was also not given his due by the establishment.

Which is why he unleashed Sirkazhi Siva Chidambaram upon us poor rasikas!

[Pratyaksham Bala]

.
Brahmin Nadaswara Vidhwan -
Palani Lakshmi Narasimha Ayyar !!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6TTSuqBJBs