Tala Bedham - A New Concept

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vijay.siddharth
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Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by vijay.siddharth »

This emerges from my concept of using one kalai and two kalai to create the same impact as doing trikalam in varnams, which can be read over here.

This time, what I have done is to sing a composition in another tala without altering the varnamettu itself. I will be compressing certain avartanams and extending other avarthanams, but the basic varnamettu can be followed without alteration. Just like graha bedham, where the ragam is changed without singing any anya swarams, in tala bedham, the talam is changed without adding or eliminating any sections of the composition.

For the purposes of this demonstration (using notation), I will be taking an adi tala varna (Ninnu Kori, Mohanam, Ramanathapuram Srinivasa Iyengar), and will be showing how this can be transmuted to different varieties of Triputa talams. When I get more time, I will do the same for Adi tala varnams in different types of Dhruva/Mathya/Jhampa/Ata talams, and will notate them accordingly. As I am weak in demonstration, this will be in the form of notation only. Fellow rasika members adept in performance as humbly requested to demonstrate the same when they have more free time.

Cheers

Siddharth

vijay.siddharth
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Tala Bedham- Mohana Varnam into Triputa Talams- Part I

Post by vijay.siddharth »

1. Trishra Triputa

Trishra triputa is a talam with 7 beats, split in a 3+2+2 structure. Hence, Adi talam needs to lose 1 beat to fit into a T/Triputa structure. This means that two beats need to be condensed into 1 beat, which implies that 2 beats be rendered in a condensed fashion (double speed). This means the talam structure of Adi Talam becomes

1+1+1+1+1+1+0.5+0.5=6+1=7

which is the number of aksharams in Tishra Triputa.

Thus, the Mohana varnam notation (pallavi only) is shown as follows:

|| G,G, R,,, SSRR | GGRR SRGR | SRSD SRGPGRSR ||
|| GPGG RSRG RRSD | SRGR GPGP | DPDS D,PGDPGR ||

If anyone has any more aesthetic ways of fitting this, please feel free to share :)

Cheers

Siddharth

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Siddharth, I understand the mechanics of your scheme.

Now, there has always been a question in CM rhythm theory whether the tala anga ( and more precisely their boundaries ) have any musical and aesthetic significance. Like, there are three 8 beat talas, can you convert a song in one tala to the other two.

The immediate reaction to such a question will be along the lines of 'of course not, they are three separate talas with different anga structures'. But that is a reaction on the unquestioned assumption that the angas do have musical significance. A few others see rhtyhmic significance in vague and ambigous manner like 'the flow is different, you can sense it' notwithstanding the fact most people have not heard any compositions in Tisra Matya or Khanda Jampa talams.

I have asked quite a few people with different backgrounds and the answers are at best speculative and even then you can find major exceptions to such thoughts.

All that lends some support to your method that is OK to change the tala of a song to a related one without changing the overall structure. That will be based on the assumption that angas do not mean much for the overall aesthetics.

Having said all that, one thing that is more or less in practice (with only a few exceptions ) with respect to rhythmic aesthetics and pattern is that the mid point of a tala gets a pronounced emphasis. Mid point is defined not by the beat count but an anga boundary in the vicinity of the mid point. For example, for Adi it is straight foward it is the beginning the first Dhruta and that happens to be the 5th beat. For tisra triputa, it is again on the first dhruta which is the 4th beat.

Now, in your scheme, you need to decide if you are going to preserve that property or not. Then the conversion while not impossible is a bit more complicated. It may be involve both speed change and eduppu change etc

shankarank
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by shankarank »

vasanthakokilam wrote: 18 Jul 2017, 04:24 notwithstanding the fact most people have not heard any compositions in Tisra Matya or Khanda Jampa talams
At least tyAgaraja and diskhitar have adhered to good structure in miSra jampa tALams and diskhitar in druva tALam ( sURya mURtE).

Sri dakshinamURtE in many lines alternates the arudhi to the second saSabdha kriya in fact.

dAcu kOvalena - the line soumitri tyaga rAju starts 2 mAtra offset and ends in the second sAshabda kriya of the jampa tAla .

I have heard a scintillating neraval round on it at tyAgaraja vidvat samajam by Dr N Ramani with UKS on Mridangam and MSA on violin. Dr Ramani ended each round splitting soumitri , tyaga , raju in there equal parts to reach the arudhi ( second saShabda kriya), with UKS coming up with different sollus in tiRmAnams every time.

If the composer composes certain lines like that they become amenable to musical exploration. It may not always possible for every line.

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by vijay.siddharth »

Dear Mr/Mrs/Ms Vasanthakokilam-

You are right, and this can be altered in tisra triputa, by placing the double speed phrase in the beginning itself:

|| G)G) R))) SSRR GGRR | SRGR SRSD | SRGP GRSR ||

and so on. Thank you for pointing that out. When I create the other schemes, I will keep it in mind.

Cheers

Siddharth

vijay.siddharth
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Tala Bedham- Mohana Varnam into Triputa Talams- Part II

Post by vijay.siddharth »

2. Khanda Triputa

Here, we need to fit 32 aksharams in 9 beats. The logical way of doing this would be to expand 4 aksharams into 8 aksharams. Keeping in mind tala structure, this can be done in the beginning of the talam itself, as shown below:

|| G))) G))) R))) SSRR GGRR | SRGR SRSD | SRGP GRSR ||

3. Mishra Triputa

Here, again the first 3 need to be expanded into twice their length to produce the effect of M/Triputa. This placement of the split is crucial in maintaining the turgidity of the tala structure. Hence, it becomes

M/Triputa- 2+2+2+1+1+1+1+1=7+2+2=11

Notational example:

|| G))) G))) R))) )))) S)S) R)R) GGRR | SRGR SRSD | SRGP GRSR ||

Sankeerna Triputa is proving to a tricky challenge, for it is stretching 8 into 13, which means 5 need to be sung slowly so that 5x2+3=13. Where to place this remains a mystery, but hopefully, not for long.

shankarank
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by shankarank »

sankIRNa tripuTA

|| G))) ))G) )))) R))) )))) S))S ))R) )R)) GGRR | SRGR SRSD | SRGP GRSR ||

3(s) and 4(s) alternate - good enough or any symmetry rules still missing? ;)

Imagine caturASra triSram for the three-ified sections - everything looks 4-ish :geek: :lol: :lol:

Some people say caturASra triSram is still caturASram only - so we don't need to call it Tala/naDai/gati bhEdam 8-) :lol:
Last edited by shankarank on 21 Jul 2017, 23:09, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Looking at this from what the audience will hear, I think this will come across as a variation on nirval. In Niraval, a song line is expanded and contracted it within the same tala. Here the song line is expanded or contracted to a different tala (cycle length).

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by vijay.siddharth »

@ShankaranK sir:

that is quite a brilliant solution! thank you so much for that!

so, from what you've said, this is what i've understood:

The length of the first 3 beats have been expanded to 8 beats, with everything else constant. This implies that 12 aksharams have become 32 aksharams. Reducing that, we have 8 aksharams in S/Triputa for every 3 aksharams of S/Triputa.

Please correct me if I am wrong!

arasi
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by arasi »

v.s,
Do they make them all so smart in Singapore? :) You are the third one we have come across from the Lion city on Rasikas.org!

Mr. VK it is, our valuable 'janitor' on board. So long as we are civil to each other, just the name suffices in addressing one. Please drop Madam too. I'm just Arasi...:)

Lakshman
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by Lakshman »

Wow! I knew that our tALA system was intricate but never realized that it is so complicated. My humble respects to those who have the vidvat in this area.

shankarank
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by shankarank »

vijay.siddharth wrote: 21 Jul 2017, 21:48 This implies that 12 aksharams have become 32 aksharams. Reducing that, we have 8 aksharams in S/Triputa for every 3 aksharams of S/Triputa.
>>we have 8 aksharams in S/Triputa for every 3 aksharams of <C>/Triputa.

Yes .. in place of 3 you substitute a power of 2 , like 2, 4 or 8 etc. you will get some speed of catuRASra triSram.
arasi wrote: 22 Jul 2017, 01:36just the name suffices in addressing one. Please drop Madam too
yes true I am not knighted either ( like the American Prof. that responded to an Indian student) :lol:
arasi wrote: 22 Jul 2017, 01:36 I'm just Arasi...
But.. now don't switch to your majesty ;) :lol:

shankarank
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote: 22 Jul 2017, 07:16
vijay.siddharth wrote: 21 Jul 2017, 21:48 This implies that 12 aksharams have become 32 aksharams. Reducing that, we have 8 aksharams in S/Triputa for every 3 aksharams of S/Triputa.
>>we have 8 aksharams in S/Triputa for every 3 aksharams of <C>/Triputa.

Yes .. in place of 3 you substitute a power of 2 , like 2, 4 or 8 etc. you will get some speed of caturaSra triSram.
Well you kind of stumped me with that question. The way I presented the setting, I mixed and matched. For G,G, I followed a lower kAla caturaSra triSram (12), for R,,, I went back to caturaSram lower kAla (8) , then SSRR I went back again to the same lower kAla caturaSra triSram(12) to convert 12 -> 32. Plus we add the last 4 for GGRR without alteration to get 36 ( 9*4).

But 12 -> 32 in a constant gati ( without flipping back and forth ) will be a lower kAla triSram - the reverse conversion. But if your intention was to stay in caturaSram without changing gati you need to mix and match! We can notate triSram solution also with 3 syllables in each section.

A constant caturaSra triSram from 12 will yield 36 in lower kAla - that will end up as a solution for khanDa jAti aTa tALam once we add the last 4 GGRR without alteration - so we kind of complete all the often used tALams with two dRtams.
Last edited by shankarank on 22 Jul 2017, 10:12, edited 5 times in total.

arasi
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by arasi »

Now I say--one is amused--
Or,as you say, should I say--
"We" are not amused? ;)

shankarank
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by shankarank »

We should not be amused - when do we de-colonize in all respects? :evil: :twisted: :lol:

arasi
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by arasi »

In this musical paradise of pundits,
Poor peasants* do co-exist--like me
In name royal, bottom rung in rank--

But wait!

kamban vITTuk kaTTuth thari* we are!
Your discussions, some are beyond us--
Yet, we see the light--at least
A ray of it, once in a while, bless!

* Even the looms in great kavi Kamban's home (of weavers) would sing a verse or two (note: a correction here, on reading PB's post which came after I wrote it. Read the preceding line as: even inanimate things in Kamban's houshold were capable of being poetic).
Last edited by arasi on 22 Jul 2017, 20:36, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by shankarank »

Arasi - I reciprocate your sentiments. Since I brought up knighthood , I could not avoid imagining the queen in the scene even though I am not a poet, but a techie junkie! And your esteemed royalty in name only - at least provided the opportunity :)


vijay.siddharth
Posts: 358
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by vijay.siddharth »

@Arasi- i shalt not address you as anything BUT your Majesty 😂😂
@Lakshman- it is complex, but, true to my style, I have managed to over complicate it!!!
@Shankarank- for K/ata, wouldn't it be 'neater' to Chaturashra Khandam to expand 4 Beats to 10?

arasi
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by arasi »

Thanks, Bala!

shankarank
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by shankarank »

vijay.siddharth wrote: 22 Jul 2017, 12:31 @Shankarank- for K/ata, wouldn't it be 'neater' to Chaturashra Khandam to expand 4 Beats to 10?
Well caturaSra khanDam is good up until you hit SSRR and GGRR when reckoning 5s will need some focus that's all!! Yes you can do it - but I was mentally stuck with what I assumed was a constraint that GGRR be kept in caturaSram! So, yes it's possible if you also include that in the transitional scheme.

shankarank
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by shankarank »

Before we proceed , lets put to rest the suffix issue. If you take the anagram of sir - SrI then you can use that as a prefix instead of suffix ;) and SrImati or Smt for ladies. Sri - very auspicious ( aiSvaryama irukkum) - also in that transition SrI/SrImati removes the narAdhamAnana vilOka SOkam - narAdhamAnana vilOka SOkApahAm ( the one who removes the misery of seeking favors from lowliest of the humans!) as dIkshitar says in vINA pustaka dhAriNi.

Wow my 1000th post! - sahasra paurNami wisdom out of the blue - paurNami candrikAm davaLa sankASAM.
Last edited by shankarank on 23 Jul 2017, 20:56, edited 3 times in total.

shankarank
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote: 22 Jul 2017, 08:52 so we kind of complete all the often used tALams with two dRtams.
For the druva tALa , the one in caturaSra jAti, the aTA taLA solutions will work in both ways as there are 3 saSabda kriyas where you can land - if you want to keep parts of your line in caturaSram. You can keep the pUrvAnga as caturaSram as it is and stretch the uttarAnga at the start of the dRtam as caturaSra khaNDam, or pURvAnga as caturaSra khaNDam to cover 1 laghu, the dRtam, and another laghu and do the uttarAnga as caturaSram.

Thinking about this there may be other solutions to aTa tAlam as well. Take pURvanga up until SRSD for the entire laghu in normal caturaSram and do the last 12 SRSD SRGP GRSR as lower kAla caturaSra triSram for the rest of the 9 beats with 12 -> 36 (9*4) also.

Sachi_R
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by Sachi_R »

narādhamānana-vilokaśokāpahāṃ

(the One) who removes the distress of beholding the face of dregs of human kind
from the sequence:
āpahāṃ śoka viloka ānana nara-adhama

shankarank
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by shankarank »

So I took some poetic license there? ;). lakshyArtham 8-) :?: RRI's translation has more fidelity to your's nevertheless. But he does cross reference hIna mAnava ASrayam tyajAmi from hiraNmayIm lakshmIm.

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by vijay.siddharth »

Sorry for the delayed response:

About Dhruva talam: the way I see it is as 4+2+4+4, so the eduppu needs to be adjust such that it is 4+4+4+2; this implies that we sing the first 6 aksharams in vilamba kalam and the drutham would be in normal speed.

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Tala Bedham - A New Concept

Post by vijay.siddharth »

This thread is long dead, but let me try to revive it with a Unified Rule of Tala Bedham.

Within our suladi sapta tala system, there is a laghu, and there is a drutham/anudrutham. Let the Laghu component be A and the drutham component be B. While A is usually variable depending on Jathi, B is a constant.

Hence, in order to give the talam a unique identity, the tala structure needs to be altered such that the song goes from the A+B of the original talam to the A+B of the next tala.

So, the easiest way to do this is to use polyrhythmic schemes. This include things like Chaturashra-Trishram, Trishra-Chaturashra, Khanda-Sankeernam, and so on. In essence, polyrhythmic arrangements are altering the rhythmic pulse of the song to fit a new rhythmic context.

Taking an adi tala song for instance, this is how it will be changed to trishra mathya tala (which has the same scheme).

ADI TALA - A(4) B B
MATHYA - A(3) B A(3)

Hence, there needs to be chaturashra trayashram to be done to notes in the first A, the first B can be rendered as per normal, and duritha kala chaturashra trayashram needs to be done in B to transpose to A(3).

This can be repeated for any talam to another talam. It is as simple as this.

As a more personal note, it will be interesting to explore the effects of Tala Bedham on Tiruppugazh. What tiruppams will be there? Only time will tell (the only tiruppugazh I know is Niraimathi and none of the more exotic ones).

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