Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

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shankarank
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by shankarank »

Let a musician whoever it is do an entire Alapana with andi mazhaiyish Akaram of TVG! Not even one syllable stress - te da ri na etc! And do just that and engage the audience for whatever time - 2 hours.

Then I will accept sAhityam is not required! But then it is not required for him and that audience!

shankarank
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by shankarank »

kvchellappa wrote: 27 Jul 2017, 22:45 Even TMK concedes that the sahityas are inevitable to learn the full range of a raga, before one can develop manobhava. His contention is that it is just the structure that counts.
Well , again some raw form expression that can be done with his disciples. Upto the disciples to learn sAhitya meaning somewhere else!. But that statement also encodes another subliminal message : the sAhitya if it prevents you ( because it part of an oppressive casteist past) from listening to this aesthetic music - shed your doubts - it is not important!

That is so unfortunate if that's what will draw someone who hated this music for whatever reason , did not pay attention to TMK's good voice before this is said, but now comes and relates to it because he likes TMK's political positions. That is a civilizational uproot-ment via liberal paradigm from somewhere else to intervene and cleanse a society of its ills!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

shankarank, I find it difficult to understand what your position is. I really would like to follow that since it looks like you are addressing some deeper issues but I can not latch on to them. Please help.

Also, when you wrote 'andi mazhaiyish Akaram of TVG! Not even one syllable stress' you seem to be equating laya with sAhityA/lyrics. True?
If so, aren't we adding complexity to the issue by taking a word with a common well understood meaning and giving it a very specific meaning. In this context I will go with 'Lyrics has laya' but not everything with Laya is lyrics.

But having said that, the reason I thought I will ask you this is to understand if your basic point is that 'what matters is the structuring of the music with many levels of stresses on the consonants ( many degress of vallinam, idayinam and mellinam in terms of emphasis on consonants ) and you are trying to keep the natural language meaning of the lyrics a separate layer.' I think this is what Nick was getting at as well. If that is not your point, please state your position and elaborate. Thanks

shankarank
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by shankarank »

Well the conventional definitions held in the lakshana tradition is one thing. I was getting more cosmological in my view - how letters and sounds are viewed as sacred , something even Dr HMB delves on it in his sangIta kalpadruma. The conventional definitions are good for Guru - siSya conversation in the formal sense. In the cosmological sense, what helps form words is the difference in stress of the consonants before you can ascribe meaning to it. The long short form , the meter gives it beauty before you ascribe svaras.

When taking view of the whole tradition in a public discourse, sAhitya has to be viewed in a similar broader sense especially by those who claim to have bhakti and look for bhAva in them. They have to treat all aspects with a sense of sacredness. That I have rAma bhakti and enjoy the bhava expressed by tyAgaraja , but then complain that the artiste did not convey the bhava, but I walk out during tani - as it is not pleasurable to me; Well that does not sound legitimate! It invalidates all your claims. A Mridanga artiste imbibes the art from the Guru SiShya parampara and does sAdhana just like any other artiste and that must be valued as sacred and respected.

A musicologist that claims Mridanga is not music, has his entire life of work invalidated by that statement! If as many musicologists and musicians claim - vaggEyakaras gave kritis to express what is otherwise an asbtract concept of rAga! Well true, but also so many artisans for generations toiled to put Sruti on the right side of Mridanga to help express the asbstract concept of laya. If that is not treated as sacred , then sacredness, bhakti have no meaning!

A tillana composer composes the jati lines as well as the sAhitya lines with the same sense of sacredness, putting to use the same consonants, one for musical beauty , the other for semantic beauty. We have to treat them both as sacred. Sacredness does not enter only when some line refers to a deity! Please note that important point.

I refer to all of it as sAhitya in a cosmological sense, as Dr HMB explains the consonant "sa" how it arises from creation in his cosmology of sound.

And if you are not a person of faith (again this means what it means to each of you!) , and claim to listen to music for aesthetic pleasure, the least I would ask is to have respect for the tradition and its sacredness. You should be able to appreciate the sincerity and hard work of artistes and their Gurus, and that can be seen / felt with your own senses. Even a sense of sacred, beyond just respect does not require faith.

The Andi mazhaiyin Akaram is a whimsical retort or challenge that I issued to artistes - in a fit of frustration - don't take it too seriously. Akara is also a sacred primordial sound :) In a cosmological sense sAhitya is yet to be born!

SrinathK
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by SrinathK »

CM has an experience for every form of music from silence to the abstract to the rhythmical to the lyrical to the technical.

The question is now -- when anyone, rasika or artist talks about how they prefer the lyric-less to the lyrical or the melodic to the rhythmical or the silence to the sound -- are they expressing their individual preference? Or is there something that does or does not resonate with them? Or is it merely a rationalization of their own limitation in a particular matter?

I can talk about how many people can't listen to CM because the lyrics don't make sense to them as an example. I have known people who have no patience for raga alapanas. There are people who walk out of a tani avartanam because rhythm makes no sense to them on it's own or it's just not that important to them. My own best friend is an example. He prefers instrumental to vocal for 2 reasons -- 1) he's heard too many vocalists out of tune and 2) He can't follow lyrics. To him, music is all about the sound.

It won't be wrong to say that for a lot of us, the lack of importance we give to lyrics is because of our own linguistic illiteracy and many of us have grown up with CM conveniently with that disadvantage. For the lyrically adept, their experience of CM sometimes becomes a horror show of incorrect pronunciations. I myself don't believe I am going to ever appreciate the lyrical side of CM properly unless my grasp of the languages becomes intuitive.

In this I can recall the incident of TRS singing Thyagaraja in Andhra when a rasika comes up to him and laments about how good the music was and how much better it would have been had Thyagaraja composed in Telugu!!! It led him to learn that language properly....

But think about it, an interpretation like this is only possible if you appreciate the lyrical side : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdV6-3zUd2o -- this is an example of lyric guiding the rhythm, the melody, the mood, the musical ideas AND the technique demanded as well.

Sachi_R
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by Sachi_R »

SrinathK,
As always, I find so much insight in your post that I can well relate to.

When the concert features a song whose lyrics are beyond my comprehension I almost always go find the sahitya and go through the lyrics as soon as possible, most of the time the same night.
For me, sahitya (maatu in Kannada, now used as a technical term in CM vs dhaatu which means melody/music) works at 3 levels:
1. It reveals the core communicative intent of the composer. I feel the composer decides what he/she is going to say in words, before sculpting the krithi as a combination of maatu and dhaatu. So for example, when Shyama Shastri sings Devi Brova Samayamide, the episodic context and meaning is for me at least 30-40% of the value of my musical experience.
2. Sahitya employs superb imagery and idiom and metaphor most of the time. It is really poetry. The recent Purandara Darshana event over 3 days in Bangalore with 350 artistes singing over a hundred krithis in 43 sessions was for me a lyrical treat, and gave an insight into the profound vision of Purandara Dasa. I later reached out to Sri Muni Rao and he poured a deluge of bibliography on the Saint's life and works. I have acquired some of those works since.
3. The Carnatic composition is a soundscape studded with musical moments like a wonderfully manicured garden. The words, pauses, intonations and take off points enrich the music beyond anything else I feel. So losing that comprehensive musical experience takes any other genre down a notch or two for me.

Your points about what a listener latches on to, sahitya, melody, rhythm, drama, atmosphere, celebration, technicality, skill, virtuosity, novelness, mix-and-match potpourri, orchestration, fusion etc. also resonates big time with me.

I heard the exquisite piece of music of Tamil lyrics sung by Ramakrishnan Murthy in his concert at First Edition Arts, since posted on You Tube. I managed to get the sahitya and share it in my comment on You Tube.

Thank you.

narayara000
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by narayara000 »

I agree with everything Sachi_R said

Nick H
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by Nick H »

I agree with the last posts of Sachi, Srinath and Shankarank!

Bottom line: if the lyrics were irrelevant, the composer wouldn't have bothered with them, right? Although to add a shade of grey to that, it does not mean that the melody cannot also stand alone.

Re the anecdote above...
I don't know the mother tongues of each of you, but haven't we all met Telugu speakers who claim that the lyrics have already often been replaced with Gibberish?

kvchellappa
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by kvchellappa »

Every experience is valid for the experiencer. What hurts is when someone, riding high, calls in question the experience of others and even reads into the intent and mood of the composer to suit his pet preoccupations of the moment, and uses offensive language to air his defiance of custom. An average listener does not have the depth and insight of the top notch rasikas here, a delight to read their erudite comments, but still matters in patronising the art. I read a sufi story. An old man is approached by a man from another city and asked about the city. The old man asks him how the city from where he came was. The man says, 'People are selfish and wicked.' The old man says, "Same here.' A little later another man who also asks the old man the same question describes his city as 'friendly and welcoming' and the old man says to him also, 'Same here.' A merchant who observed this questions the old man why he gave opposite views about the same city to the two persons. The old man says, 'Each person carried his own world with him.'

vgovindan
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by vgovindan »

As with the language - there are two aspects - the communication and literary - so is with Music. The core purpose of music is communication. The 'literary' aspect of music is not appreciated by those who have not been educated in appreciating literature. It is one thing to read tirukkural or Bharati for appreciation of poetical style; it is totally different to be 'moved' by what is being conveyed - it has the capacity to change one's attitude. There is a dialogue in the film 'Sankarabharanam' about the word 'Amma' being uttered by different people - baby crying for milk, baby who is afraid, a beggar etc. The intonation and emotion attached to each of the situation cannot be codified - it is to be felt. It can be conveyed in the same way only by that person who has understood the pathos or whatever emotion attached to it.

Though I am not well qualified in CM, I can surely appreciate it. 'nanu pAlimpa naDaci vaccitivO' - by tyAgarAja - for example - is totally contextual. Anyone who wants to sing that song, should place himself in the position of either tyAgarAja or Rama - the singer and the listener to emote the lines. I cannot explain beyond this.

There are Ragas which are typically suited for certain situations - nIlAmbari for lullaby. The so called rakti rAgas are not called so without reason. However, rakti phrases are hidden in every rAga in some corner - only an expert musician can bring these out. But whether he has that innate capacity to emote it, depends on how one is 'moved' (nAdAnubhava) or whether it is simply an exercise in demonstrating one's prowess and talent - the egocentricity.

From the example of the video of Charlie Chaplain, it is clear that - as has been classified in Tamil - the dance form conveys its own meaning notwithstanding the words. Of course, the music has to be suitably tuned to express that. The video is not an extempore presentation, but a properly rehearsed one with suitable musical notes and pauses. Therefore, what may sound 'gibberish' is not necessarily gibberish, if this example itself is taken. Therefore, it (the video) also powerfully brings out that the listener's knowledge of the language is less relevant than what is emoted. Thanks for the nice example.

It may all be mythology to say that when sage Agasthya sang - against Ravana - the mountain became liquified (melted)
(கரைந்தது). But the example is not a total myth for those who can 'feel' what that liquification (melting) conveys.
Last edited by vgovindan on 28 Jul 2017, 21:20, edited 2 times in total.

arasi
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by arasi »

Govindan,
Thanks for getting into the 'heart' of the matter...

Chellappa,
Loved your sufi story. That's sufficient to reflect the feelings of some of us about feeling-less music, with or without lyrics...

arasi
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by arasi »

This sometimes heartless world
Drives us to music heart-felt--
When music misses having a heart,
Poignant words to go with, at times--

Listener, where would you turn?

shankarank
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote: 28 Jul 2017, 09:41 what helps form words is the difference in stress of the consonants before you can ascribe meaning to it. The long short form , the meter gives it beauty before you ascribe svaras.
I was part of a Hams club radio group and learnt Morse code formally. It has no stress differentiating syllables , except the short tone and a long tone and all English letters were represented by a combination of long /shorts.

Of course we know the binary is the lowest form required for information also. Long/short is more than beauty looks like!

Thiru Haridwaramangalam , says vinyAsam has begun once long short has been expressed!

https://youtu.be/ndAOOcGMF1k?t=205

Sachi_R
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by Sachi_R »

Shankarank,
I recently watched a serial on Netflix called Elementary - a modern version of Sherlock Holmes. It is extremely well done.
Holmes says in one episode that every telegraphist has a signature way of doing the longs and shorts. By listening to recordings where the modern day criminals in NY used Morse Code for transmitting secret messages, he catches the thief through his signature.
Perhaps you know what I am speaking about. Holmes used a technical term for it - I forget now.

shankarank
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by shankarank »


http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Koc ... 327608.ece

A critic of folk, classical divisions for art, Mr. Krishna said: “Real aesthetic experience of an art form would only be possible if we dumped our set aesthetic notions. The real experience of beauty is only possible through empathy, and it is imperative to dump a habituated idea of beauty to enter the beauty of a new form and experience it.”

An art experience had an underlying idea of democracy, with its ability to express, share, interpret, rediscover, and reconcile with the conflicts arising from disagreement. While it is easy for a practitioner of a privileged art form to shun his/her identity, an artist from a marginalised community will have to uphold it, which brings to the fore the inherent inequality in art appreciation and how well this can be negotiated, he added.
Any native society that did not celebrate it's chandas ( verse and meter) got crushed. A Vietnamese doctor doing residency amidst other doctors, and who can't speak well, gets discriminated!

The marginalized societies today have to do just that! - simple! whatever their heritage language is they will have to celebrate the substance , form, then content - all of it. Then they don't need to wait for the empathy of the privileged!

If they evolve their concept of beauty and cherish and get fulfillment out of it, that is a complete experience - we don't need to ask if that is equal or un-equal to the sense of beauty of the privileged.

And of all people anybody subscribing to any iota of an idea from Karl Marx - should not even mention the word democracy in the same line!

shankarank
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by shankarank »

vgovindan wrote: 28 Jul 2017, 17:50 But whether he has that innate capacity to emote it, depends on how one is 'moved' (nAdAnubhava) or whether it is simply an exercise in demonstrating one's prowess and talent - the egocentricity.
An artiste trained in guru-Sishya paramapara once he ascends the stage , it is not helpful to get into GuNa dOShas of that person.

Feeling and emotion can happen in so many ways. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3O0PhhD6B4 . But a tradition that wants to remember its past and cherish it is different!

That is why I like this one from Abhinava Gupta:

http://www.ikashmir.net/abhinavagupta/article4.html

Abhinavagupta though agrees to many of the suggestions put forward by Rasa theory also points at its various limitations. According to him art is not just about evoking certain feelings but a real work of art in addition to possessing emotive charge needs to have a strong sense of suggestion and capacity to produce various meanings. This is where he refers to Dhvanivada. He says that for a work of art it is not enough to be having abhida (literal meaning) and laksana (metaphorical meaning ) but it should also possess Vyanjana the suggested meaning which has absolutely nothing to do with the other two levels of meaning. Thus an aesthetic experience cannot be experienced like any ordinary mundane experience. A true aesthetic object does not simply stimulate the senses but also stimulates the imagination of the spectator. Once the imagination is stimulated the spectator aesthete gets transported to a world of his own creation. This emotion deindividualises an individual by freeing him from those elements which constitute individuality such as place, time etc. and raises him to the level of universal. Thus art is otherworldly or Alaukika in its nature.

vgovindan
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by vgovindan »

"Real aesthetic experience of an art form would only be possible if we dumped our set aesthetic notions. The real experience of beauty is only possible through empathy, and it is imperative to dump a habituated idea of beauty to enter the beauty of a new form and experience it.”

A new musical Picasso - whose art I never understood.

Is it a new definition of 'beauty' or arrogance to acknowledge that there ever existed anyone knowledgeable - a la (philosopher) J Krishnamoorthi?

Sachi_R
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by Sachi_R »

Do you know, dear folks, we have totalled over 8000 words already on this topic of jibberish! And still nowhere near the start of the proposed experiment 😀


Definition of a Pandita Abhinava Rasikottama:
One who can discuss the meaning of gibberish in several thousand words!

arasi
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by arasi »

ji, lagtA hai, hamE ishq hai is ajIb Angan mE
'jibberish' par bhI, sangIt sAth parvarish karnE!
kyA kahEn, hum tO kEval Am lOg hain, jab gIt
dEvtA ban kar hAmAre pAs rahnE par bhI :) :(

Seems, we in this enclave have the desire
To nurture gibberish along with music!
What can I say, mere mortals we are--
When music divine lives alongside :) :(

Sachi_R
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by Sachi_R »

स्वागतम्।

SrinathK
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by SrinathK »

kvchellappa wrote: 28 Jul 2017, 17:28 Every experience is valid for the experiencer. What hurts is when someone, riding high, calls in question the experience of others and even reads into the intent and mood of the composer to suit his pet preoccupations of the moment, and uses offensive language to air his defiance of custom. An average listener does not have the depth and insight of the top notch rasikas here, a delight to read their erudite comments, but still matters in patronising the art. I read a sufi story. An old man is approached by a man from another city and asked about the city. The old man asks him how the city from where he came was. The man says, 'People are selfish and wicked.' The old man says, "Same here.' A little later another man who also asks the old man the same question describes his city as 'friendly and welcoming' and the old man says to him also, 'Same here.' A merchant who observed this questions the old man why he gave opposite views about the same city to the two persons. The old man says, 'Each person carried his own world with him.'
That sufi story taught me a lesson. The next time someone asks how important lyrics are in a concert, they are probably the best persons themselves to answer that question because unless they are looking for a change / evolution of perspective, what it means to them will always be most important.

@RSachi, I can pardon myself for the occasional gibberish syllable owing to my linguistic illiteracy, or mumble just a bit when I am exceedingly bored for those harmless laughs that children have over gibberish baby talk, but I cannot deliberately subject my favourite songs to the horrors of such a prolonged experiment.

Sachi_R
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by Sachi_R »

SrinathK,
I well understand your position!

shankarank
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by shankarank »

Sachi_R wrote: 29 Jul 2017, 06:48 And still nowhere near the start of the proposed experiment 😀
Well we at least tried putting some sense into things considered as gibberish! ;)

kvchellappa
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by kvchellappa »

"Quod Ali cibus est alibis fuat acre venenum" ascribed to Lucretius.
What is food for one man may be bitter poison to others.

shankarank
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by shankarank »

amRta varshini pArtAl (sacred kaTaksha of divine mother) najum amutamAgum.(poison turns nectar). heard in a discourse..

Sachi_R
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by Sachi_R »

Swami,
amṛtaṃ = original sahitya
gibberish = water
modern lyrics =poison

Only Devi can now help us! Like Dikshitar, TMK has created the right atmosphere for Amrita Varshini. I hope more people will now more zealously espouse a respectful attitude to sahitya.

vgovindan
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by vgovindan »

There is one brain exercise making rounds in social media -
BRAIN EXERCISES

"I cdnuolt blveiee that I cluod aulacltyn
uesdnatnrd what I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in what oerdr the ltteres in a word are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is that the frsit and last ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can still raed it whotuit a pboerlm. This is bcuseaethe huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the word as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!"

I seriously doubt whether human mind cannot truly invent gibberish particularly with metre as constraint. Probably something like random number generator can help.

Nick H
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by Nick H »

One man's meat is another man's poison.

No doubt it has been said in many languages over many centuries!
The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid
Similar examples leave out multiple letters, cover up part of the line, etc, etc. Does this work in Indian languages?

English, both written and spoken, has a peculiar flexibility. If you ask me about "Borminghum," I may well realise which city you mean. On the other hand, even now, auto drivers look blank if I say Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan! Thank god for Rasi silk. :lol: And I can say most of the local names understandably. Hmm... Maybe it's because I learnt the London branch of BVB long before coming here!

Of course, place and people names in Tamil Nadu are much easier to an English speaker than they are in, eg, France. Mind you, I would have had no clue at all what a recent foreign visitor was saying if I had not just picked her up from Balaji Nagar. I wonder what she would have done with Sholinganallur! :twisted: :lol:

Speaking of France, it is funny watching my Tamil-speaking wife talking to Tamil-speaking auto drivers... in Pondicherry! She has no clue how to say the French street names so that they understand.

Sachi_R
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by Sachi_R »

Sir, all this was already processed into the idea of replacing sahitya with "appropriate" gibberish. May a super TMK be on the stage soon with the creative powers to adlib Thyagaraja al la Gibberish.
A day may dawn when there will be Gibberish Pancharatna Goshtigana.
And we will start honouring newer and better Gibberish adaptations of the Trinity.
And finally a SUPER KALANIDHI for it! Oooooh... fur thi ecixtnig tmeis aahed!

rshankar
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by rshankar »

Nick H wrote: 30 Jul 2017, 17:29Speaking of France, it is funny watching my Tamil-speaking wife talking to Tamil-speaking auto drivers... in Pondicherry! She has no clue how to say the French street names so that they understand.
Nick speaking French in Tamil is a separate dialect (possibly even a distinct language, like Ebonics)! I am sure only life-long residents (like PB, Ponbhairavi, Ganesh Mourthy et al) know how to do it right - sometimes I wonder if it requires some epigentic phenomenon to be able to speak and understand :lol:......I certainly did not learn how to in all my years there!!

And the place I missed not learning it the most was this little island in the heart of Paris called 'Little Pondicherry' - a place when some Tamil-speaking French citizens were relocated when Pondicherry joined the Indian Republic, and have settled down there for generations....And they speak a language that sounds like what the gypsies speak - a mixture of French and Tamil, that no one else understands. Thankfully, they still serve some of the best filter coffee and masala dosa outside of South India.....

Sachi_R
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by Sachi_R »

Ravi,
Having visited Paris more than a dozen times for work with varying periods of stay, and having craved Masala Dosa & Filter Coffee during those trips, I suggest that maybe you should share the Google Maps locations of your favourite haunts, as it may yet be the greatest service to humanity (at least for the likes of me 😃) and decide issues of war and peace.

kvchellappa
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by kvchellappa »

Smt. Anita Ratnam in Sruti issue of Aug 2017:
"I am stimulated by sound and images. I use very little lyrics in my works. .. As ‘Neelam’ was purely a ritual solo ode to Vishnu, the lyrics were important, but even there I experimented with the long ragam and tanam before having the pallavi enter like a quick, final brushstroke."

SrinathK
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Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by SrinathK »

Sachi_R wrote: 31 Jul 2017, 00:11 Ravi,
Having visited Paris more than a dozen times for work with varying periods of stay, and having craved Masala Dosa & Filter Coffee during those trips, I suggest that maybe you should share the Google Maps locations of your favourite haunts, as it may yet be the greatest service to humanity (at least for the likes of me 😃) and decide issues of war and peace.
Tripadvisor is incredibly useful for just this sort of thing....

Sachi_R
Posts: 2174
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by Sachi_R »

Yes, I have the app 😀

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by shankarank »

We are some 40 plus years behind the movie industry to try the same - I mean I am referring to the title of the thread!!:

https://youtu.be/-V2_erhIZh8?t=2135

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by shankarank »

Again from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJH3H-gkWsU - his numero uno music director Ilayaraja now regrets loss of good lyrics from Movies - when he is the one who started this with his Gummangutthu songs!

kvchellappa
Posts: 3596
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by kvchellappa »

Sree Ramaseva Mandali, Bengaluru has launched today "Musically Yours" that will feature articles on Music. It has published the following:
http://musicallyyours.co.in/article/15
The Krithi and its contribution to Modern Music - by G N Balasubramaniam

Sachi_R
Posts: 2174
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by Sachi_R »

Sir,
Sri GNB has written:
One wonders whether those who are not conversant with South Indian Karnatic concert, will be able to understand and realise what a performance today can be without Krithis at all.
Poor GNB. He of course couldn't imagine what a great artiste of today, viz. TMK is saying and writing. Soon, I am almost sure, he will give a full concert with gibberish, to prove how meanings and sahitya are irrelevant for a liberated Carnatic experience.

By the way, I particularly like this song for its words: copied from karnatik.com:
saamagana lOlE
raagam: hindOLam
20 naTabhairavi janya
Aa: S G2 M1 D1 N2 S
Av: S N2 D1 M1 G2 S

taaLam:
Composer: G.N. Baalasubramaniam
Language: Sanskrit

pallavi

saama gaana lOlE, salalita guNa jaalE amba

anupallavi

sOma bimba vadanE, nisseema mahima sadanE
saamaja mridu gadanE, kaamadaana nipuNE amba
(saama)

caraNam

kOmalaanga kaamEshwara, vaama bhaga sadanE
naama bhajita saadu jana, paapa kuta shamanE
taamasaadi guNa kalpita, taapatraya shamanE
tEmadaya rasa purita, hema (?) kamala nayanE amba
(saama)

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by Nick H »

Sachi_R wrote: 15 Aug 2017, 17:36 Soon, I am almost sure, he will give a full concert with gibberish, to prove how meanings and sahitya are irrelevant for a liberated Carnatic experience.
What, like alapana, thanum, kalpana swara...?

:twisted: :lol: :D

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by shankarank »

Somebody finds konnakkOl as not gibberish , when Mridangam was gibberish to most !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OppDZnV-550

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by Nick H »

Thanks....
alapana, thanum, kalpana swara, konnakkol...

(la la la and dum de dum de dum)

(but not do be do be do, which is not gibberish but philosophy :lol:)

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by shankarank »

Meaning begins ( or completes) with objects or philosophy? Even a liberal judge like Markandey Katju laments lack of philosophical knowledge among judges. http://topyaps.com/markandey-katju-india-sc-judges

So if justice rendering requires philosophy then meaning requires that as well!

GautamTejasGaneshan
Posts: 82
Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 23:04

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by GautamTejasGaneshan »

what's up y'all - i can't keep up, in fact i'm browsing rasikas for the first time now in months.
MaheshS wrote: 27 Jul 2017, 16:02 A fellow forumite called Gautam did / does this, the lyrics are all in English, he says that it's a translation of existing krithis. I tried listening to a couple of concerts, but couldn't understand any words at all ... so even though the lyrics were certainly not gibberish, the whole package itself didn't make much sense to me.
quick point - my songs are not translations.

if you're interested:

texts:

https://www.instagram.com/iamgtgsongs/

photos:

https://www.instagram.com/iamgtg/

video clips (speakers/headphones):

https://vimeo.com/channels/gautamtejasganeshan

(or just search for me on youtube)

support me please:

https://www.patreon.com/gautamtejasganeshan

Image

- g

kvchellappa
Posts: 3596
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by kvchellappa »

The gibberish author perhaps fulfils Freud: “Human beings are fundamentally driven by the pursuit of pleasure, not interested in meaning.” But, here is a spoilsport: Victor Henkl: “Human beings are fundamentally driven by the pursuit of meaning.”

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by shankarank »

Googling on Victor Henkl gives me Victor Frankl the neurologist as the top hit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl) and Henkl as white pages, Linked Ins, twitter handles etc.

kvchellappa
Posts: 3596
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by kvchellappa »

It is the neurologist.

Sachi_R
Posts: 2174
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by Sachi_R »

Level 1 = Word gives meaning.
Level 2 = Meaning gives word.
Level 3 = Wordless gives meaning.
Level 4 = Meaningless gives feeling.

Which level are you at?

kvchellappa
Posts: 3596
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by kvchellappa »

I am on top of the world - at level 4!

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by shankarank »

kvchellappa wrote: 18 Aug 2017, 10:00 It is the neurologist.
I did not know that Google is now adept at handling Gibberish based on what we call the soundex function! So the sound by itself acquires meaning!

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Post by arasi »

Folks,
As I looked at the levels, something emerged. Call it a whim, but rings true to me.
I have inverted every line, and added a few words to the existing ones. For someone who deals with words all the time (big mouth, writer of sorts), I think it makes sense too.Here goes:

Meaning gives words
Words give meaning

Meaning gives wordless state at times
Feelings give meaningless states too--

So, feeling exists for me in song
No song can do it too, if played fine
Neither song nor notes--in their silence
Can also bring me joy, in their stillness...
Last edited by arasi on 18 Aug 2017, 23:55, edited 1 time in total.

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