Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

[vsuresh]

Sharing a rare Viola-Chitravina Duet of Dr M Balamuralikrishna and Maestro Chitravina N Ravikiran for your viewing pleasure :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDZkH_7 ... e=youtu.be

[varsha]

Lovely !!!!!!!!!!!

[Sreeni Rajarao]

Delightful!

Thanks for the link!

[Sachi_R]

Truly enjoyable, I love Begade and Ravikiran played a wonderful Begade in 1982 Ramsevamandali w Kanyakumari and TVG.
But I dislike this garden variety of video-capturing and dubbing. It robs the music of its verisimilitude.

[thanjavooran]

Vsuresh,
Many thanks for sharing the link. Very pleasing and soothing Begada. Enjoyed listening at frequent intervals. Old is always good.
With wishes,
Thanjavooran
27 08. 2017

[sureshvv]

Dr. M.Balamuraliskrishna looks very attractive.

Any idea who the accompanists were?

[arasi]

vsuresh,
Thanks a lot to you and Sreenivasamurthy, of course. A tranquil journey it is.When the SK 2017 thread is drifting away into speculations already about next year's choice , listening to this brings the focus back to this year's worthy vidvAn. Of course, everything else melts away in this nAdOpAsana of the two veterans even when they were young--both being child prodigies...

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Viola. Is it a violin just bigger in size than an ordinary instrument?

If that be the case Ms. Kanyakumari has been using a 'big' pale (violin) instrument for accompanying as well playing solo for many years now (perhaps after the times of MLV). She doesn't call it a Viola.

Then what exactly is the difference between Violin and Viola?

[Sachi_R]

Sivaramakrishnan,
Some 40 years ago, while sipping coffee at the PTI canteen in Delhi, I was chatting with Vidwan TV Gopalakrishnan.
He said that the violin as played in the west would have too high a pitch, and hence Carnatic violinists use thicker strings, even then it is too high pitched (timbre--wise) to suit our normal sruti. Hence he said Sri Balamurali had done a clever thing by adapting the viola.

What is a viola?
Wikipedia says:
The viola (; Italian pronunciation: [viˈɔːla]) is a string instrument that is bowed or played with varying techniques. It is slightly larger than a violin and has a lower and deeper sound. Since the 18th century it has been the middle or alto voice of the violin family, between the violin (which is tuned a perfect fifth above) and the cello (which is tuned an octave below). The strings from low to high are typically tuned to C3, G3, D4, and A4.


See for size comparison:

[SrinathK]

A western violin is tuned to G D A E which means the lower two strings are tuned to G (5 kattai) and the upper two are tuned to A (6 kattai). This suits only high pitched female singers and the body of the violin functions best from an acoustics perspective at this pitch.

When you go to a viola, it's 5 tones lower C G D A which means the lower 2 strings are tuned to C (1 kattai) and the upper two to D (2 kattai) which suits male voices. The acoustics of a violin when tuned this far below what it was designed for is not optimal and it results in loss of tone and power. Not only that, the best strings for a violin simply produce no sound at this pitch, so we may have to use the G D and A strings of the violin and use the C string of a viola to get the sound we need for accompanying a male voice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe11Pp1g39I (That's a 45 million Stradivari viola...)

There are further problems in solo violins as well as they tend to be tuned at D# or E. You either end up with an overly tight D string or a very loose A string for e.g. and ditto with all the other strings.

The viola however is a larger instrument and smaller hands might have problems with it. Most hands however will be able to play CM on it. It's also harder to bow on a viola, it requires more bow weight and power and the strings won't be as responsive. To add to the problem, violas don't have standard sizes. Their length may vary from 16-18 inches. And they're VERY under-represented in classical music.

A couple of videos showing the differences - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XierDLeUiYg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2Bi1iY12UQ (Do ignore the wild joke at the end)

You can see the superior tone of the viola to the violin at male pitches in this performance of BMK himself - he has no problems with the larger instrument.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uz3XCIUViQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n6bBH0DZgk

However, acoustically, even the viola isn't perfect. The optimal sound and acoustical response for that particular pitch requires an instrument even larger than the viola, large enough that it can't be played the conventional way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E551DqDhr1k

There's an innovation called the new violin family that has tried to match the size of the instrument to the pitch it is tuned to and the acoustic performance it offers, creating a set of 8 instruments with a combined total range equal to the grand piano. The interesting thing is that in this family, the violin itself is 5% bigger than normal (with the same string length however), and they sound amazing. It's food for thought....

http://octavivo.org/PDF/Meet%20the%20Family.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGZl3BN3aZo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70gjbrLtDD0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bFlyinp_RU

[RSR]

wonderful thread and posts. . and links.

[SrinathK]

<Deleted>

[RSR]

Highly technical. May be some one can add information about the resonant string effect in all the North Indian instruments. and about Chowdaiya's special violin ( for laymen.) .

[uday_shankar]

May be useful to understand the absolute pitches, i.e., sthayis, which will tell us why something sounds too screechy… etc… Simply referring to kattais or letters EADG etc… may not be clear.

The chitravina in this example is tuned to G or 5 kattais…but which octave? Is it the same as the female shadja? Is the violin accompanist accompanying a typical south Indian female singer on the same octave? How about the flute ?

Here are the details:

1. Chitravina tuned to G3 or ~196Hz (the saranis are a set of three, two of which are dominant, tuned to G3 and another wound string to G2).
2. A female singing at 5 kattais has her aadhara shadja at G3, i.e., the same as chitravina.
3. A south Indian violin accompanying a female vocalist at 5 kattais has the main shadja (i.e., the A string) tuned to G4 and the panchama (i.e., the E string) to D5. This tuning is still a couple of semitones lower than the western tuning (EA) for the last two strings but still sounds screechy as it is an entire octave above the singer. So especially the sangatis on the thin E string start to sound too shrill for Indian music.
4. The viola in the above example is tuned a whole octave lower than the violin. Hence it is in the same sthayi as the female singer/chitravina… so it sounds really mellow.

Narmada violin tuning
Violinist Narmada achieves the same effect by making a simple change when accompanying for 5 kattais. Instead of using Pa-Sa-Pa-Sa tuning for the EADG strings going down, she uses Sa-Pa-Sa-Pa tuning. As a result, she is in the same sthayi as the vocalist (or chitravina player), sounds less screechy than all other violinists. Additionally, she can play the mel sthayi sangatis very effectively lower down on the finger board on that last Sa string (E string)! The only compromise is mandhara sthayi where she cannot go below Pa, but which female singer sings below that? She can really do amazing things in the mel sthayi on lock step with the female singers crooning up there!

L Subramanian and 5 strings
I’ve seen L Subramaniam use a 5th string tuned to the mel Sa… again like Narmada he can play the higher octave much more effectively…

[SrinathK]

Both violins and violas are 1 octave above the pitch of the human voice in Carnatic music. When you see a violinist playing 2 strings lower, they're matching the vocalists' pitch.

Veenas are an octave lower than the violin and match the pitch of the human voice.

@uday_shankar, I am not sure if it's the pitch of the instrument as much as it is the purity of the tone. Flutes in CM are an octave above the violin, but then the flute is more rounded as it's a wind instrument.

I did make a comment (which I pulled down) that only very good violins actually sound good at the pitch they were designed to be played in.

Narmada violin tuning
Violinist Narmada achieves the same effect by making a simple change when accompanying for 5 kattais. Instead of using Pa-Sa-Pa-Sa tuning for the EADG strings going down, she uses Sa-Pa-Sa-Pa tuning. As a result, she is in the same sthayi as the vocalist (or chitravina player), sounds less screechy than all other violinists. Additionally, she can play the mel sthayi sangatis very effectively lower down on the finger board on that last Sa string (E string)! The only compromise is mandhara sthayi where she cannot go below Pa, but which female singer sings below that? She can really do amazing things in the mel sthayi on lock step with the female singers crooning up there!

You mean she tuned 5 notes lower ?

[uday_shankar]

You mean she tuned 5 notes lower ?

Yes:

Normal Tuning for violinist accompanying female vocalist singing at 5 kattais
G: Tuned to G3 - Sa
D: Tuned to D4 - Pa
A: Tuned to G4 - Sa - Main Playing String
E: Tuned to D5 - Pa

Narmada Tuning for violinist accompanying female vocalist singing at 5 kattais
G: Tuned to D3 - Pa
D: Tuned to G3 - Sa - Main Playing String
A: Tuned to D4 - Pa
E: Tuned to G4 - Sa

So I believe she removes the original E string, shifts the G D A strings to the right (looking down the finger board), and adds an even thicker string in the place of the original G string at the left.

[sureshvv]

<Deleted>

No need to have deleted. Post had valid content and was not offensive. I was going to jump in to support but refrained because I thought it would just increase the noise-to-signal ration.

[SrinathK]

You mean she tuned 5 notes lower ?

Yes:

Normal Tuning for violinist accompanying female vocalist singing at 5 kattais
G: Tuned to G3 - Sa
D: Tuned to D4 - Pa
A: Tuned to G4 - Sa - Main Playing String
E: Tuned to D5 - Pa

Narmada Tuning for violinist accompanying female vocalist singing at 5 kattais
G: Tuned to D3 - Pa
D: Tuned to G3 - Sa - Main Playing String
A: Tuned to D4 - Pa
E: Tuned to G4 - Sa

So I believe she removes the original E string, shifts the G D A strings to the right (looking down the finger board), and adds an even thicker string in the place of the original G string at the left.

This is basically a small variation of the viola tuning used for accompanying male voices. There's a brilliant practical advantage in doing this as all the strings are close to their optimum tension and one could probably use the same instrument, on the same day, to accompany both a male or a female singer or even play solo.

For example, to accompany a female singer singing in G, one can tune it like this (from lowest to highest) :
D3 G3 D4 G4 == p s P S

To change to a male singer singing in C, one has to simply tune the first and third string down by a step
C3 G3 C4 G4 == s p S P

If the male singer was singing in d, then just tune up the 2nd and 4th strings like so (from the 1st setting):
D3 A3 D4 A4 == s p S P

And later to accompany a female singer singing in A, tune up the 1st and 3rd strings
E3 A3 E4 A4 == p s P S

Then to play solo (the Parur school tunes to E), just tune up the 2nd and 4th strings (It's even easier if it's D# like the Lalgudi school).

E3 B3 E4 B4 == s p S P

However, do note that the G string is now tuned 1.5 tones above it's design pitch and the A string is now 1 step higher as well. If the strings can take this additional tension without becoming too difficult to press down, then we could do it, but I doubt that. If the solo violin is tuned to D#, it might be doable though.

If the tension isn't an issue, the tonal results will be much better than taking a string that was meant to play A4 and tuning it down all the way to E4 or D#4 -- the string will become so loose it will start sounding nasal.

But this is why the viola could have in theory been a better accompanying instrument than the violin-- the violin would have been better for the solos. The viola simply didn't catch on because it simply wasn't ever as popular as the violin and practically, it wasn't easier to play. We shouldn't forget that singers of that era did sing in a higher pitch than today and had more powerful voices overall.

[RSR]

There may be some passages about Violin, viola etc in this link on Western Classical music.
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/music/ito/history/

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Dear all,
I never imagined my query would yield such a fund of information.
'Narmada tuning', 5th string of L Subramaniam etc. have been really unknown aspects to me!
Special thanks to SrinathK and uday shankar!

I have observed that while Violin could be tuned to any pitch, the muffled Viola would never raise above C or C+.

To quote SrinathK:
"Both violins and violas are 1 octave above the pitch of the human voice in Carnatic music. When you see a violinist playing 2 strings lower, they're matching the vocalists' pitch. Veenas are an octave lower than the violin and match the pitch of the human voice".
Please help more to understand.

[SrinathK]

The viola is not supposed to be tuned much higher than C or C# -- it's body and strings are sized to be at that pitch. However, with the kind of tuning like above, the viola can be adapted for accompaniment. However, while an instrument can always be tuned down, it's not possible to tune up by more than 1/2 or 1 step above it's designed pitch - the strings will break and there could be damage caused to the body.

The violin can be tuned up to A# if required, but that I think is the limit. Most carnatic violinists are actually tuning the violin much below it's original concert pitch to play solos (down to E or D#) or for male vocalists which like I said does cause the instrument to lose tone and power (although on the plus side, it hides the fact that the violin might sound harsh and piercing at it's own pitch).

Only for accompanying some high pitched female vocalists is the violin played close to it's western concert pitch (which also some accompanists avoid as only very good violins sound sweet at high pitches). That's how they use the violin to accompany an MDR at one end and a Nityashree at the other, a wide range of tunings.

Just think, for accompanying MDR, the violin would have to be tuned a whole octave below normal, which is impossible. For him, I think they'd probably just tune the strings to D3 G3 D4 G4 and use the second string as the Sa string. I could use the same tuning to accompany a lady singing at G (5 kattai) also.

When a vocalist and the violinist play the same swara (say tara sthayi Sa), the violin is always 1 octave above the voice.

The flute is one octave above the violin and a veena, being one octave below the violin, is at the same pitch of the voice (to understand this, listen to a veena violin venu recording). I should point out that if a viola is tuned to C and used for accompaniment, it's still an octave above the vocalist always.

Sometimes you might see the vocalist exploring in tara sthayi while the violinist is playing in madhya sthyai -- at such times the violin is playing 1 octave lower, so it matches the voice frequency. The thing to note is that in Indian music, our pitches tend to be lower than opera singers by quite a margin, so likewise our instruments are also tuned lower.

Violins are however far more abundant than violas and that's why the violin got adapted. Another reason was also that it's exactly the right size for our smaller bodies and easier to play, so even kids can learn to play on a full size violin.

Apart from BMK and the Madras String Quartet and orchestral work, I have never seen a viola used anywhere else in India for CM or HM.

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Srinath, Thanks.
I think you have to discuss on the gauge of strings too. I have seen violinists having exclusive instruments for male/female voices (Thak Kattai / H Kattai). Many violinists choose to play on the lower sthayi for female singers to avoid shrill output.

[Sachi_R]

As the kid who spoke in the august (last day today!) assembly of sages, let me say, Sri V.V. Subrahmanyan set the gold standard for lower string play to accompany women.

[SrinathK]

There are a few factors that decide why separate instruments are used

1) Different sets of strings might warrant some changes to the bridge and the fingerboard to get the right string clearance and handle different tensions. It's not as drastic as changing from gut to steel, but still it has an impact. If they use thicker strings for male violinists, they might also need a slightly heavier bow. Or if they aren't, they might need a taller bridge, which in turn means the neck angle has to match.

2) There's also a chance that different violins might sound better at different pitches (a unique artefact of our variable tuning requirements), so one violin may actually be better for male voices and another for solos and another for female voices. There may be sound post or bridge adjustments to adjust the sound for a particular pitch which might not be optimal in a totally different tuning.

3) There are practical advantages also. Changing strings is quite a chore (it can hurt the bridge alignment too) and a brand new string usually needs to stretch for sometime before it becomes pliable and melodious enough. Removing a string before it expires might cause some damage to it and it may not be the same when you put it back on again (imported strings are particularly notorious for this -- once they are stretched it is advised never to change their pitch). The best strings don't come cheap either.

4) Violinists do end up giving multiple performances on the same day. It's not practical to change the setup of a violin in such a short time. We cannot also use one set of strings and tune them to a totally different pitch.

5) Some violinists even have different violins to match certain artistes as well.

Now I don't know much about what brands and gauges are used by musicians (I do know that Karuna had a numbering gauge system). The viola does have thicker strings though. Once I put on a viola C string on my violin and was shocked by how much more weight the thick string needed. Fortunately I could tune down the run of the mill Karuna string down to C and it worked fine. Again that is something that varies from instrument to instrument.

[uday_shankar]

Srinath:
Check this out… this is the Narmada tuning in action… Aishwarya is singing Viriboni at 6 kattais, A. So the violin tuning is:

G: Tuned to E3 - p
D: Tuned to A3 - S
A: Tuned to E4 - P
E: Tuned to A4 – S’

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikj9Lfsv0E8

There is something profoundly instructive going on at 2:09 during the mukhtayi swaram. As we know, the notes below the lower P are not available for this tuning and so there’s a conundrum with respect to the mukhtayi swaram. But if we listen to this without a priori knowledge of the tuning and if we are not observant, we’ll think that she actually hit the lower M in the MMPPDDNN sequence. But she’s doing something really clever with the bowing by actually playing the M on the main sarani string (the D string). A little harsher bowing and the spuritham effect gives the impression of a lower M ! Very clever.

If you doubt what I’m saying watch the bowing when she plays MMPP at 2:09… it tilts to her right for MM (i.e. to a higher string) and back to her left for PP (open string) !

[SrinathK]

Good example of that @uday_shankar

[Sivaramakrishnan]

uday,
Strings (hats) off to you!

[thenpaanan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikj9Lfsv0E8

There is something profoundly instructive going on at 2:09 during the mukhtayi swaram. As we know, the notes below the lower P are not available for this tuning and so there’s a conundrum with respect to the mukhtayi swaram. But if we listen to this without a priori knowledge of the tuning and if we are not observant, we’ll think that she actually hit the lower M in the MMPPDDNN sequence. But she’s doing something really clever with the bowing by actually playing the M on the main sarani string (the D string). A little harsher bowing and the spuritham effect gives the impression of a lower M ! Very clever.

If you doubt what I’m saying watch the bowing when she plays MMPP at 2:09… it tilts to her right for MM (i.e. to a higher string) and back to her left for PP (open string) !

Indeed. I had to watch several times to be sure. But surely tremendous craftsmanship from Smt Narmada that a layman would never know about and credit to you for pointing it out to us laymen so clearly. It is a mark of a true artist to have acquired such capability that they are happy to have but not show off. I wonder how many such wonders lie hidden beneath the surface.

-T

[uday_shankar]

I wonder how many such wonders lie hidden beneath the surface.

Well, to put things in perspective, hitting the lower M on the higher string is a small, albeit cute detail but nothing to write home about in the scale of her overall vidwat and everything else she has accomplished.

It is quite possible that Narmada discovered this technique on her own, but the idea of playing sub-harmonics on a bowed instrument have been around for at least a couple decades. I first heard them from a Stanford researcher in the early 2000's. Here's a nice demo of sub-harmonics, the art of playing an octave or a fifth lower than the actual note on a violin...pay particular attention to the few seconds starting at around 00:51.

https://youtu.be/i5CSUHpK4QM

In the video, the person claims that sub-harmonics have "no practical use". I beg to differ...here in the Bhairavi varnam mukhtayi swaram, in the context of her altered tuning scheme used to accompany female vocalists, Narmada has discovered the first genuine use for violin sub-harmonics !

[vsuresh]

Any idea who the accompanists were?

Shri Umayalpuram Sivaraman Sir and Shri Palghat Sundaram

[SrinathK]

Also, there have been attempts made to convert a violin to play one octave lower than normal. Thomastik even has a set of strings for it (not sure of the sound or playability though) http://www.quinnviolins.com/qv_octaveviolin.shtml

Sadly though, tuning such a small instrument as the violin so far down means the tone is absolutely terrible and does not compare to a true instrument sized appropriately for that pitch. However, the E, A and D strings might be useful when tuning for accompanying female singers using the alternative tuning, using a normal A string for the 4th and highest one. Again these are some really thick strings, so their playability and tone can't be judged unless played on.

[RSR]

This link about Yehudi Menuhin may be of interest to violinists and music lovers.
http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/ye ... usic-51807 There is an absolutely beautiful photo of Yehudi Menuhin with Smt.MS and Radha. ( 1952)

[SrinathK]

Well, I guess the viola is still around -- here's a viola violin duet. It seems to have toed the violin's line though, as it as been tuned down by nearly 6 tones, one octave below the violin. VVS Murari handles it like child's play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nXOOyA3aJI

The superlative playing and a soulful Kapi notwithstanding, strictly from an acoustics perspective, I think if a viola was tuned this far down, it's tone also suffers. We might have to rope in the cello or the tenor violin for that....

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Shall I infer that what Ms Kanyakumari uses is NOT a Viola but a bigger Violin?

[SrinathK]

Kanyakumari amma does not use a viola -- that is an electric violin IMHO.

[melam72]

She uses the 'electric violin', to be accurate - that's what she calls it.

[thenpaanan]

Well, I guess the viola is still around -- here's a viola violin duet. It seems to have toed the violin's line though, as it as been tuned down by nearly 6 tones, one octave below the violin. VVS Murari handles it like child's play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nXOOyA3aJI

The superlative playing and a soulful Kapi notwithstanding, strictly from an acoustics perspective, I think if a viola was tuned this far down, it's tone also suffers. We might have to rope in the cello or the tenor violin for that....

Wonderful playing indeed. Does VVS Murari or anyone else for that matter have to practice especially differently to play the viola or is it relatively easy to switch between these two particular instruments? I can't tell if the bowing and fingering transfer easily -- to a layman they look very similar but appearances may be deceiving. Of course playing any instrument at that level requires a special kind of capability.

From my hearing it did sound in this recording as if the viola was not as resonant as the violin. Is there a more precise way to know what the natural pitch for a viola would be? How can you tell that the viola is tuned too far down? Couldn't it be that the violin was pitched too high?

-T

[SrinathK]

Wonderful playing indeed. Does VVS Murari or anyone else for that matter have to practice especially differently to play the viola or is it relatively easy to switch between these two particular instruments? I can't tell if the bowing and fingering transfer easily -- to a layman they look very similar but appearances may be deceiving. Of course playing any instrument at that level requires a special kind of capability.

From my hearing it did sound in this recording as if the viola was not as resonant as the violin. Is there a more precise way to know what the natural pitch for a viola would be? How can you tell that the viola is tuned too far down? Couldn't it be that the violin was pitched too high?

-T

The violin is tuned to F (A Lalgudi-ish tone is the sound of D#, an MSG that of E and a TNK that of F, it's that distinct), which is below it's own range, and the viola an octave below it. So the viola just went from C3-G3-D4-A4 to F2-C3-F3-C4 which is a full 5 tones below it's pitch. Naturally our ears are also less sensitive to lower pitches.

This is the viola's natural pitch :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maut_j0PkhI -- BMK in his solo concert plays it at C, which is best.

Although acoustically, this size is still too small to get the same response as that of a violin. Despite this, you can tell immediately that no violin sounds that rich or powerful when tuned 5 tones below it's normal pitch. Even at this size, the tone has a chocolate like viscosity to it that no violin can produce. I feel that if you could tune the viola up to an E (which is where our solo violins are tuned at), it would be close to perfect for it's size (around 16+ inches). Another problem is the viola size isn't standard like the violin, it can vary from anywhere from 15.5 to 17 inches.

Here's a 16.5 in giant - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HBFFsJ9wt4

Bowing on a viola requires a strong arm, those strings are thick gauge and don't effortlessly speak like a violin string. Some strings are so thick that without the right setup, it's hard to press them down (my experience with a viola C string on my violin felt like it was a small steel rod!). Left hand technique is similar to the violin, only that the intervals are wider, almost like a 5/4 violin. Small hands will find it hard. Anything beyond 16.5 in is going to be too big. I can tell you my hand is slightly on the smaller size and just adequate for a 14 inch 4/4 violin, so I probably would not be able to play properly on a viola bigger than 15.5-16 in. Maybe someone with a big hand span like LGJ would have no problems even with a 16.5 in viola.

The reason for that is because the string length isn't optimal. It's too short, forcing us to use thicker than normal strings. (More on that next post)

Many great violinists could also play the viola very well since the overall technique is similar. If you've got a bigger hand, when you play on the violin again, it's almost too easy.

[SrinathK]

@thenpanaan, String instruments are just like our vocal cords - if you need a string that vibrates 5 tones lower like a viola, then it's ideal length ought to be approximately 1.5 times longer than a violin string (about the same difference between male and female vocal cords) - which however would make it impossible to play like an extended violin, that would require a 19-20 in sized body with a string length of 45 cm (a violin is around 32 cm). Many players have suffered injuries handling even 16 in. violas and playing anything bigger than 16.5 inches with a violin technique is out of the question.

The larger string span of the viola with the thicker strings has claimed many a victim to all kinds of repetitive stress injuries, all because everyone wanted to play it like a big violin.

So in reality, a viola string is only a couple of centimetres longer than a violin string and this forces one to go for thick strings. This combination of thick strings and short vibrating length results in a very stiff and rather unresponsive string, which is made worse if you tune it down so much (which needs even thicker strings).

All western violists struggle with that string response (modern synthetic strings do help a lot like the one in the 1st link above, but still, not so effortless like a violin). Even someone as unbelievably skilled as William Primrose can't quite get it to ring at will : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn3RYzDuQcE

Very honestly, the viola was only ever intended to supply that special chocolate like tone in the mid range during ensemble playing and never as solo instrument with a massive 5 octave range like the violin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_vCeyma5ZI

[SrinathK]

@thenpanaan Bigger violas that are acoustically sized for their pitch have the problem that they can't be played like violins anymore, but their tone and power is something else... These instruments however are experimental and not mainstream as they cannot be played with conventional technique - after all, any music community would want a viola that can be played by violinists too. Like Chowdiah's 7 stringed violin, they remain in a niche category.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E551DqDhr1k&t=698s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGZl3BN3aZo (The last instrument at the end of this video is one such viola, played upside down like a cello.)

This Stradivari viola https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe11Pp1g39I - is not that big, it's more like a bigger violin (and sounds like one too).

Actually at the pitch VVS Murari is playing (one octave below the violin and a fifth lower than normal), you'd need an instrument twice as big as the violin and over a third larger than even those 20 in inverted violas for the ideal acoustics. We are talking about a string 60 cm long -- some luthiers have created an experimental instrument called the "tenor" violin, which is about 3 quarters the size of a cello, just for that range.

When the instrument gets that big, it starts sounding really "boomy", with a cello like quality which is not the preferred sound for a viola.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGZl3BN3aZo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70gjbrLtDD0 (The first instrument in this video is a tenor violin Note that the tenor violin is tuned to G2-D3-A3-E3, one octave below the violin - notice it's sound)

Compare this instrument to a normal violin tuned one octave below with special strings - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgZdlEBpIBI
It's very easy to see that the small violin sounds like a tin can in comparison.

Summing up, my ideal viola would have the power and response of a Guarnerius violin, with the hypnotic mellowness of a Mohammed Rafi's voice, with a bit of brilliant luster at the highest notes. Easier said than done....

[SrinathK]

Since RSR (I think) mentioned about Chowdiah's 7 stringed violin - here's one link that tells you all you ever wanted to know about it (as well as his 19 stringed version with 12 sympathetic strings). http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitst ... er%206.pdf

The idea of putting sympathetic strings on a bowed instrument is not new however. There is an instrument called the viola d'amore - from the renaissance-baroque period that used them. This was from before a time where the violin family had yet to be developed. It had 6 playing strings and 7 sympathetic strings. It has a soft, but sweet, ringing sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQSbtkIVSTM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oESzlizAafE&t=620s

Before the violin family developed, there used to be a class of bowed string instruments called viols. Some of them had frets like a guitar! They went out of use from the 17th century as the violin, viola and cello took over and social culture changed, and music went from chamber to the concert hall. (Prior to this, the viols were instruments sought by nobility and serious gentlemen, the ultimate romantic instrument of those times (not quite unlike an acoustic guitar), and when the violins came they were initially considered as low class!!)

[uday_shankar]

It is quite possible that Narmada discovered this technique on her own, but the idea of playing sub-harmonics on a bowed instrument have been around for at least a couple decades. I first heard them from a Stanford researcher in the early 2000's. Here's a nice demo of sub-harmonics, the art of playing an octave or a fifth lower than the actual note on a violin...pay particular attention to the few seconds starting at around 00:51.

https://youtu.be/i5CSUHpK4QM

In the video, the person claims that sub-harmonics have "no practical use". I beg to differ...here in the Bhairavi varnam mukhtayi swaram, in the context of her altered tuning scheme used to accompany female vocalists, Narmada has discovered the first genuine use for violin sub-harmonics !

I had a chance to ask Narmada about this particular technique and she told me she learned the technique from her father MSG. So it turns out MSG had discovered the violin bowing techniques for sub-harmonics probably a long time ago, definitely before western researchers started talking about it, and passed it on to his disciple daughter.

That's a really cool story.

It is important to stress MSG's discovery of this technique independently and without fanfare compared to Mari Kimura (see link below) who has generally been credited as the "innovator" of this technique. Certainly, she has made a fetish out of it but as the video above says, it really has no practical use in western music.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... harmonics/

[bala747]

I wonder why those who sing at 6 kattais need a violin accompaniment?

[melam72]

With all frankness, the veena or the gottuvadhyam is the superior accompaniment for ladies.

However, due to considerations of volume (veena) and number of players (gottuvadyam), these concerts have been the exception rather than the norm.

Chitravina N Ravikiran has played accompaniment with T Brinda on the gottuvadyam, which, according to me, sounded more pleasant than a violin accompaniment, especially in the higher reaches.

Sri Ravikiran is requested to share those recordings in this forum so that we can enjoy that sukhanubhavam