Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

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SrinathK
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by SrinathK »

Good example of that @uday_shankar

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

uday,
Strings (hats) off to you!

thenpaanan
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by thenpaanan »

uday_shankar wrote: 31 Aug 2017, 19:05
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikj9Lfsv0E8

There is something profoundly instructive going on at 2:09 during the mukhtayi swaram. As we know, the notes below the lower P are not available for this tuning and so there’s a conundrum with respect to the mukhtayi swaram. But if we listen to this without a priori knowledge of the tuning and if we are not observant, we’ll think that she actually hit the lower M in the MMPPDDNN sequence. But she’s doing something really clever with the bowing by actually playing the M on the main sarani string (the D string). A little harsher bowing and the spuritham effect gives the impression of a lower M ! Very clever.

If you doubt what I’m saying watch the bowing when she plays MMPP at 2:09… it tilts to her right for MM (i.e. to a higher string) and back to her left for PP (open string) !
Indeed. I had to watch several times to be sure. But surely tremendous craftsmanship from Smt Narmada that a layman would never know about and credit to you for pointing it out to us laymen so clearly. It is a mark of a true artist to have acquired such capability that they are happy to have but not show off. I wonder how many such wonders lie hidden beneath the surface.

-T

uday_shankar
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by uday_shankar »

thenpaanan wrote: 31 Aug 2017, 22:33I wonder how many such wonders lie hidden beneath the surface.
Well, to put things in perspective, hitting the lower M on the higher string is a small, albeit cute detail but nothing to write home about in the scale of her overall vidwat and everything else she has accomplished.

It is quite possible that Narmada discovered this technique on her own, but the idea of playing sub-harmonics on a bowed instrument have been around for at least a couple decades. I first heard them from a Stanford researcher in the early 2000's. Here's a nice demo of sub-harmonics, the art of playing an octave or a fifth lower than the actual note on a violin...pay particular attention to the few seconds starting at around 00:51.

https://youtu.be/i5CSUHpK4QM

In the video, the person claims that sub-harmonics have "no practical use". I beg to differ...here in the Bhairavi varnam mukhtayi swaram, in the context of her altered tuning scheme used to accompany female vocalists, Narmada has discovered the first genuine use for violin sub-harmonics !

vsuresh
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by vsuresh »

sureshvv wrote: 27 Aug 2017, 14:01
Any idea who the accompanists were?
Shri Umayalpuram Sivaraman Sir and Shri Palghat Sundaram

SrinathK
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by SrinathK »

Also, there have been attempts made to convert a violin to play one octave lower than normal. Thomastik even has a set of strings for it (not sure of the sound or playability though) http://www.quinnviolins.com/qv_octaveviolin.shtml

Sadly though, tuning such a small instrument as the violin so far down means the tone is absolutely terrible and does not compare to a true instrument sized appropriately for that pitch. However, the E, A and D strings might be useful when tuning for accompanying female singers using the alternative tuning, using a normal A string for the 4th and highest one. Again these are some really thick strings, so their playability and tone can't be judged unless played on.

RSR
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by RSR »

This link about Yehudi Menuhin may be of interest to violinists and music lovers.
http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/ye ... usic-51807 There is an absolutely beautiful photo of Yehudi Menuhin with Smt.MS and Radha. ( 1952)

SrinathK
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by SrinathK »

Well, I guess the viola is still around -- here's a viola violin duet. It seems to have toed the violin's line though, as it as been tuned down by nearly 6 tones, one octave below the violin. VVS Murari handles it like child's play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nXOOyA3aJI

The superlative playing and a soulful Kapi notwithstanding, strictly from an acoustics perspective, I think if a viola was tuned this far down, it's tone also suffers. We might have to rope in the cello or the tenor violin for that....

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

Shall I infer that what Ms Kanyakumari uses is NOT a Viola but a bigger Violin?

SrinathK
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by SrinathK »

Kanyakumari amma does not use a viola -- that is an electric violin IMHO.

melam72
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by melam72 »

She uses the 'electric violin', to be accurate - that's what she calls it.

thenpaanan
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by thenpaanan »

SrinathK wrote: 04 Sep 2017, 13:13 Well, I guess the viola is still around -- here's a viola violin duet. It seems to have toed the violin's line though, as it as been tuned down by nearly 6 tones, one octave below the violin. VVS Murari handles it like child's play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nXOOyA3aJI

The superlative playing and a soulful Kapi notwithstanding, strictly from an acoustics perspective, I think if a viola was tuned this far down, it's tone also suffers. We might have to rope in the cello or the tenor violin for that....
Wonderful playing indeed. Does VVS Murari or anyone else for that matter have to practice especially differently to play the viola or is it relatively easy to switch between these two particular instruments? I can't tell if the bowing and fingering transfer easily -- to a layman they look very similar but appearances may be deceiving. Of course playing any instrument at that level requires a special kind of capability.

From my hearing it did sound in this recording as if the viola was not as resonant as the violin. Is there a more precise way to know what the natural pitch for a viola would be? How can you tell that the viola is tuned too far down? Couldn't it be that the violin was pitched too high?

-T

SrinathK
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by SrinathK »

thenpaanan wrote: 06 Sep 2017, 09:18 Wonderful playing indeed. Does VVS Murari or anyone else for that matter have to practice especially differently to play the viola or is it relatively easy to switch between these two particular instruments? I can't tell if the bowing and fingering transfer easily -- to a layman they look very similar but appearances may be deceiving. Of course playing any instrument at that level requires a special kind of capability.

From my hearing it did sound in this recording as if the viola was not as resonant as the violin. Is there a more precise way to know what the natural pitch for a viola would be? How can you tell that the viola is tuned too far down? Couldn't it be that the violin was pitched too high?

-T
The violin is tuned to F (A Lalgudi-ish tone is the sound of D#, an MSG that of E and a TNK that of F, it's that distinct), which is below it's own range, and the viola an octave below it. So the viola just went from C3-G3-D4-A4 to F2-C3-F3-C4 which is a full 5 tones below it's pitch. Naturally our ears are also less sensitive to lower pitches.

This is the viola's natural pitch :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maut_j0PkhI -- BMK in his solo concert plays it at C, which is best.

Although acoustically, this size is still too small to get the same response as that of a violin. Despite this, you can tell immediately that no violin sounds that rich or powerful when tuned 5 tones below it's normal pitch. Even at this size, the tone has a chocolate like viscosity to it that no violin can produce. I feel that if you could tune the viola up to an E (which is where our solo violins are tuned at), it would be close to perfect for it's size (around 16+ inches). Another problem is the viola size isn't standard like the violin, it can vary from anywhere from 15.5 to 17 inches.

Here's a 16.5 in giant - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HBFFsJ9wt4

Bowing on a viola requires a strong arm, those strings are thick gauge and don't effortlessly speak like a violin string. Some strings are so thick that without the right setup, it's hard to press them down (my experience with a viola C string on my violin felt like it was a small steel rod!). Left hand technique is similar to the violin, only that the intervals are wider, almost like a 5/4 violin. Small hands will find it hard. Anything beyond 16.5 in is going to be too big. I can tell you my hand is slightly on the smaller size and just adequate for a 14 inch 4/4 violin, so I probably would not be able to play properly on a viola bigger than 15.5-16 in. Maybe someone with a big hand span like LGJ would have no problems even with a 16.5 in viola.

The reason for that is because the string length isn't optimal. It's too short, forcing us to use thicker than normal strings. (More on that next post)

Many great violinists could also play the viola very well since the overall technique is similar. If you've got a bigger hand, when you play on the violin again, it's almost too easy.
Last edited by SrinathK on 06 Sep 2017, 12:03, edited 2 times in total.

SrinathK
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by SrinathK »

@thenpanaan, String instruments are just like our vocal cords - if you need a string that vibrates 5 tones lower like a viola, then it's ideal length ought to be approximately 1.5 times longer than a violin string (about the same difference between male and female vocal cords) - which however would make it impossible to play like an extended violin, that would require a 19-20 in sized body with a string length of 45 cm (a violin is around 32 cm). Many players have suffered injuries handling even 16 in. violas and playing anything bigger than 16.5 inches with a violin technique is out of the question.

The larger string span of the viola with the thicker strings has claimed many a victim to all kinds of repetitive stress injuries, all because everyone wanted to play it like a big violin.

So in reality, a viola string is only a couple of centimetres longer than a violin string and this forces one to go for thick strings. This combination of thick strings and short vibrating length results in a very stiff and rather unresponsive string, which is made worse if you tune it down so much (which needs even thicker strings).

All western violists struggle with that string response (modern synthetic strings do help a lot like the one in the 1st link above, but still, not so effortless like a violin). Even someone as unbelievably skilled as William Primrose can't quite get it to ring at will : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn3RYzDuQcE

Very honestly, the viola was only ever intended to supply that special chocolate like tone in the mid range during ensemble playing and never as solo instrument with a massive 5 octave range like the violin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_vCeyma5ZI
Last edited by SrinathK on 06 Sep 2017, 21:00, edited 1 time in total.

SrinathK
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by SrinathK »

@thenpanaan Bigger violas that are acoustically sized for their pitch have the problem that they can't be played like violins anymore, but their tone and power is something else... These instruments however are experimental and not mainstream as they cannot be played with conventional technique - after all, any music community would want a viola that can be played by violinists too. Like Chowdiah's 7 stringed violin, they remain in a niche category.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E551DqDhr1k&t=698s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGZl3BN3aZo (The last instrument at the end of this video is one such viola, played upside down like a cello.)

This Stradivari viola https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe11Pp1g39I - is not that big, it's more like a bigger violin (and sounds like one too).

Actually at the pitch VVS Murari is playing (one octave below the violin and a fifth lower than normal), you'd need an instrument twice as big as the violin and over a third larger than even those 20 in inverted violas for the ideal acoustics. We are talking about a string 60 cm long -- some luthiers have created an experimental instrument called the "tenor" violin, which is about 3 quarters the size of a cello, just for that range.

When the instrument gets that big, it starts sounding really "boomy", with a cello like quality which is not the preferred sound for a viola.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGZl3BN3aZo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70gjbrLtDD0 (The first instrument in this video is a tenor violin Note that the tenor violin is tuned to G2-D3-A3-E3, one octave below the violin - notice it's sound)

Compare this instrument to a normal violin tuned one octave below with special strings - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgZdlEBpIBI
It's very easy to see that the small violin sounds like a tin can in comparison.

Summing up, my ideal viola would have the power and response of a Guarnerius violin, with the hypnotic mellowness of a Mohammed Rafi's voice, with a bit of brilliant luster at the highest notes. Easier said than done....

SrinathK
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by SrinathK »

Since RSR (I think) mentioned about Chowdiah's 7 stringed violin - here's one link that tells you all you ever wanted to know about it (as well as his 19 stringed version with 12 sympathetic strings). http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitst ... er%206.pdf

The idea of putting sympathetic strings on a bowed instrument is not new however. There is an instrument called the viola d'amore - from the renaissance-baroque period that used them. This was from before a time where the violin family had yet to be developed. It had 6 playing strings and 7 sympathetic strings. It has a soft, but sweet, ringing sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQSbtkIVSTM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oESzlizAafE&t=620s

Before the violin family developed, there used to be a class of bowed string instruments called viols. Some of them had frets like a guitar! They went out of use from the 17th century as the violin, viola and cello took over and social culture changed, and music went from chamber to the concert hall. (Prior to this, the viols were instruments sought by nobility and serious gentlemen, the ultimate romantic instrument of those times (not quite unlike an acoustic guitar), and when the violins came they were initially considered as low class!!)

uday_shankar
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by uday_shankar »

uday_shankar wrote: 01 Sep 2017, 07:01It is quite possible that Narmada discovered this technique on her own, but the idea of playing sub-harmonics on a bowed instrument have been around for at least a couple decades. I first heard them from a Stanford researcher in the early 2000's. Here's a nice demo of sub-harmonics, the art of playing an octave or a fifth lower than the actual note on a violin...pay particular attention to the few seconds starting at around 00:51.

https://youtu.be/i5CSUHpK4QM

In the video, the person claims that sub-harmonics have "no practical use". I beg to differ...here in the Bhairavi varnam mukhtayi swaram, in the context of her altered tuning scheme used to accompany female vocalists, Narmada has discovered the first genuine use for violin sub-harmonics !
I had a chance to ask Narmada about this particular technique and she told me she learned the technique from her father MSG. So it turns out MSG had discovered the violin bowing techniques for sub-harmonics probably a long time ago, definitely before western researchers started talking about it, and passed it on to his disciple daughter.

That's a really cool story.

It is important to stress MSG's discovery of this technique independently and without fanfare compared to Mari Kimura (see link below) who has generally been credited as the "innovator" of this technique. Certainly, she has made a fetish out of it but as the video above says, it really has no practical use in western music.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... harmonics/

bala747
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by bala747 »

I wonder why those who sing at 6 kattais need a violin accompaniment?

melam72
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Re: Rare Viola-Chitravina Duet from the 1980s

Post by melam72 »

With all frankness, the veena or the gottuvadhyam is the superior accompaniment for ladies.

However, due to considerations of volume (veena) and number of players (gottuvadyam), these concerts have been the exception rather than the norm.

Chitravina N Ravikiran has played accompaniment with T Brinda on the gottuvadyam, which, according to me, sounded more pleasant than a violin accompaniment, especially in the higher reaches.

Sri Ravikiran is requested to share those recordings in this forum so that we can enjoy that sukhanubhavam

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