Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

[thenpaanan]

BMK can sing that same Hindolam with beautiful feeling as well : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W2lpvhzjyY
Of all the recordings I have, this one is special because this was the one that introduced me to his music.

Speaking of the "serious Carnatic" -- I have observed that there are 5 effects that give the result of "lightness" in singing

In my opinion what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable vocal technique (aka "serious" vs "light" in CM, since in CM light is a pejorative descriptor) is totally arbitrary in any given system of music (perhaps culture-specific is a better term in the sense that no logic is necessary).

1) The fade -- where you are expected to do a kampita or jharu and you end up fading it into softness instead of going all the way to the landing note
2) The pianissimo (mellinam) - It's fine when you do it on a whole phrase, but when you do it on one particular syllable or note, it sounds light
3) The slur - instead of heavier gamakas in dhattu phrases like md gm sg ns (hindolam), the phrases are slurred with a smooth (but one-dimensional) slide joining the notes. It's an instrumental effect best demonstrated on the violin.

These things seem to be tolerated depending on who it was. MDR used a lot of pianissimo in his singing (perhaps the powers that be looked down on it just like they did his low-pitch/slow singing). Veena Dhanam was praised for it but others were castigated for it. In other words this works like the world of fashion design. Something is beyond the pale until someone established does it, when it becomes "revolutionary". These days I hear a lot of these in the singing of the Ra-Ga duo that would have caused the Mylapore lot to frown in past years.

4) The vibrato -- Using it in any manner beyond "salt in the food" can make it look filmy, and worse, overdone. The paradox here is that the vibrato is actually a very heavy effect when rendered through the voice. On a violin or a veena it works very well, because it's naturally light and not intrusive -- you can shape the tone with it, but with the voice it has to be delicately done. Do it on a note where it's not needed and it can sound "filmy", especially when surrounded by a plethora of plain notes.
...
GNB, MSS (more in her films), Brinda & Mukta (they sang it exactly like a fast and and narrow kampita on the veena at select notes for that gamaka, which as a matter of fact, it is) are some examples who really handled that vibrato in a classic CM fashion. Now Somu, he really cooked his vibrato to extremes, sometimes crossing into opera territory. Seerkazhi Govindarajan also used it.

ARI had a wolf-note like vibrato that came if he tried forcing his voice, it was not a controlled vibrato.

If you ask me, CM violinists could use it just a tad more, it enhances the tone of the instrument.

This reminded me of this website that I keep going back to: https://www.wikihow.com/Sing-Vibrato. Vibrato is a naturally occurring phenomenon due to the construction of the vocal chords. I always wondered why vibrato is frowned upon in CM. It is used aplenty in film music and folk music but is somehow considered too "vulgar" for our refined tastes. I love how TMS has this tremendous vibrato in his upper register but it is more challenging to sing a natural vibrato in the lower registers. Somu was an absolute show-off when it came to these things and it was spectacular, but then he could also overdo it.

-T

[SrinathK]

One peculiarity that happened with Yesudas is that his voice sort of got stuck in a vibrato whenever he attempted to sing an extended kaarvai - you can see this whenever he starts with Sa Pa Sa.

Vibrato needs to be done very carefully in CM. It is a heavy effect in the voice and can easily sound shaky or unstable, especially when there is so much shaking already. However the effect is well used on the veena, the violin and especially the nagaswaram where it gives a special intensity to their sound.

[shankarank]

BMK can sing that same Hindolam with beautiful feeling as well : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W2lpvhzjyY

As I listened to that, two hindolams came next in sequence.

What makes it clearly Carnatic at a very gross level obviously is the choice of percussion ( Mridangam vs. Tabla). But a comparison of how vAtana vinOda is handled between the two clinches the issue:

Ghantasala: https://youtu.be/2-QuLr4fiZg?t=222

BMK: https://youtu.be/gsyc8j2mcOo?t=247

GhantasAla is completely unaware of the proportion of the kArvais in the way he positions the syllables. That might very well be the result of the type of melodic focus in his music. If he were to get a Mridangam instead and become aware of the syllables the way they align to arudhis, irrespective of type of intonation, Carnatic hear and feel will be restored.

And that happens with Dr BMK.

So even if I am transported to a culture which has a different definition of what is light vs. heavy in terms of melody, I have a substrate method to identify Carnatic music : High fives - and High Brows! ( replacements for the absent high-brow emoticon ). I get that feel sometimes even with Country/Jazz music - but CM has a unique feel in that regard!

And there are people who swear in Andhra, that music cannot be listened to, after Ghantasala! How are they ever going to see what is Carnatic?. They cannot understand the source of sweetness and potential of Telugu, as it is their language. Stuck they are with their notions of meaning vs. feeling!

Keralites are relatively luckier I should say

So went my equation in one of those threads :

CM = BMK -(minus) Ghantasala!

[sureshvv]

One peculiarity that happened with Yesudas is that his voice sort of got stuck in a vibrato whenever he attempted to sing an extended kaarvai - you can see this whenever he starts with Sa Pa Sa.

There is also the vibrato filled "Aaaauuuuuummmmmm" he starts his concerts with.

[SrinathK]

@thenpanaan, You have a point. If you were to look at those old gramaphone recordings of yesteryear artists, they're all pretty folksy in comparison to what we have today. However I would describe it as raw, rather than light. Light = A certain detail of gamaka action that you expect should be there, which isn't and is replaced by something more approximate + a certain intensity of tone that's not there. One thing that CM used to be known for is the ability to maintain a strong tone - this type of ringing forte' or fortissmo is explicitly avoided in light / film music, almost as if it were a tonal 'foil' to classical music.

Ranjani & Gayathri to my ears, are not light - delicate is the word I would use. They sing passages delicately and smooth out their transitions from swara to swara, but it's so much that it's "light". If you ask me, it's a smart move. They aren't straining their voices and it will help their longevity. In this regard, even KVN was also on the delicate side.

The current generation of musicians also use the slow tempo to create a different aesthetic, in which some of these more delicate glides and gamakas are possible. But even this may be too "floaty" and sound light to ears that are used to heavier, madhyamakala passages. I confess it took me a concert or half a dozen to get used to it when I first started hearing live concerts (that was a long time ago).

In fact Brindamma made a style out of it by lightening and tapering her voice off in the upper octave, while it was quite heavy in both timbre and gamakas elsewhere.

Now if you want to hear a naturally 'heavy' voice amongst the ladies, MLV comes to my mind (if you've heard her at her prime).

Maharajapuram Santhanam's mOhanam was unique as he used a lot of plain notes, but I can't call it light. He had a mastery over the falsetto that was unique to him.

Now the vibrato, that is actually an effect in the voice which I'd describe as "too heavy" rather than light, (although a lot of people would associate it with light music, it's not. It can get so heavy that it becomes intrusive). In fact, Indian film music today hardly ever uses it. On the veena and the violin, vibratos are lighter and are not nearly as intrusive.

The point where I'd draw the line is where the gamaka is so stripped, I feel the raga's identity is beginning to fall off.

[Ranganayaki]

Can someone point me to where I can hear these? Sounds like an oxymoron.

I see that this was not answered: I don't think it's an oxymoron. I don't think brighas have anything to do with gamakas. Brighas are (often multiple) minute (very very short-lasting) notes that occur as embellishments in the midst of the normal-length notes of the kritis. I'm sorry to be unable to give a better explanation. If you listen for Brighas in a gnb video on youtube and then slow it down at one of the brighas, you can hear all the beautiful minute swaras he flawlessly adds lengthened, and it has nothing to do with gamaka. The notes in a brigha all belong to the raga being performed.

[shankarank]

The point where I'd draw the line is where the gamaka is so stripped, I feel the raga's identity is beginning to fall off.

The point where I draw the line is when syllable awareness is lost and when too much beat hugging takes place.

There is more Carnatic in this - with no Gamaka possibility whatsoever:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCIMwoO-Jw8

than in this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtgTIavxZdc - where beat hugging takes place. It is however folkish - the way songs are sung to a Chenda accompaniment.


I see this issue with Sri Ravikiran's compositions ( deliberate?) and Sri Sriramkumar's as well!

Looks like Vadivelu took the violin, but not the rhythmic sense from Thanjavur!

Why would Dr BMK not inspired to sing this in his mega recitals in Mylapore. He comes back to nagumOmu - yeah that light inauthentic Abheri!

[arasi]

As a child, the first instance when I was aware of a brighA was when GNB sang in sonnadai seidiDa sAhasamA, kaNNaneninum muRai kaDandiDa''lA.....''mO?

[shankarank]

I see this issue with Sri Ravikiran's compositions ( deliberate?) and Sri Sriramkumar's as well!

And this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K790iX3c_O8 is what I would consider Proto-carnatic music!! Things like this gave us the dvitiyAkshara prAsa as well..

[bala747]

Lately, I have been listening to a lot of BMK and Somu, and I have found that the amount of 'vishayam' in their music is exceedingly high; literally, I can learn so much from listening to their concerts, be it presentation, singing alapana/neraval, kanakku for swarams, and of course, songs too.

However, there are few people who equate BMK and Somu to the likes of Brinda-Mukta, or MD Ramanathan, or KV Narayanaswamy, and I have heard them call the former set 'light musicians'. I have even heard people call Aruna Sayeeram 'Pombala Somu' (female Somu), which I don't get, as, according to me, the manodharmam quotient of Somu is higher than that of Smt. Sayeeram.

Why is this so? Is it because they partook in movies or sung devotional numbers? Why is Somu and BMK not considered to be equal to B-M or MDR?

Anyone who calls Aruna Sayeeram "pombala Somu" needs not be taken seriously as a human being, much less anyone with even a passing knowledge of music.

Somu was a genius nonpareil. Yes, he sang popular tamizh pieces in his concerts, and why shouldn\t he? Anyone who has even heard his HMV record of Guruleka Ituvanti would attest to the greatness of his music. His Bhairavi and Thodi are a notch above anything even Ariyakudi could muster. Had he been a brahmin, he would have been seen at the same level as a GNB or SSI. I am not indulging in idle praise.


Hell, have a listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou4qV5ATTnU
This was late-Somu, with a very poor voice, and was probably the shortest, the worst thodi he has ever sung.

Then go and listen to the most elaborate, best rendered version of Thodi of Aruna Sayiram, then take a knife and cut out the tongue of the next person who dares say she is a "pombala Somu". (Incidentally she chewed on and spat out Thodi for 15 minutes here in Singapore in the mid-2000s, and followed it up with Thamathamen. I started to plead to the Lord to hurry up as well, to get her to stop).

I would sooner call KVN a light musician than Somu. KVN sang superficial, easily attempted ragas, had limited creativity, wasn't particularly impressive, but had the following of the usual concert-goer with passable knowledge of carnatic music. Somu had something for the musicially accomplished, and the complete layman (can you imagine KVN or DKJ trying to sing Marudamalai mamaniye murugaiyya? Or attempting a Thodi with a tenth of the grandeur of Somu's?)

And rakti ragas? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM6fW0zfL1c Can anyone seriously tell me KVN conveyed raga bhava better?

But I have to disagree somewhat about BMK. BMK's earlier concerts were brilliant exercises in creativity, but later years it turned into shouting at various octaves. He went too much into ragas to the point where it became an utter mess. A raga is like a beautiful body. There is no beauty in tearing it apart to show off its insides. That's pretty much what BMK did to most ragas later in life, and having run the gamut of ragas to eviscerate, decided to create a few of his own.

His compositions were nothing special, the lyrics not particularly noteworthy, but the raga amaippu was top-notch. He was a brilliant composer of thillanas.

His tala system though is quite fascinating, and definitely something that future musicians should add to their repertoire.

And yes, BMK and Somu (and Musiri) do have something in common with MDR and Brinda/Mukta (disagree about KVN who to me was the Santhanam of the 70s, only less so). They conveyed gnanam to their audience. The rest sang ragas.

[SrinathK]

By all means disagree with Aruna Sairam, I believe certain expressions, which could be non-serious when heard, become far too serious when put into the written word (cut the tongue?). I mean I could go on and dissect everything I don't like about everybody or even about CM in general, and I have a right to, but I'd not want my intentions be interpreted as mala fide

We also have our reservations about hearing mAdum mEkkum kaNNE and the kAlinga nartana tillAnA in each and every concert and etc -- it is so overdone now it has gone into parody territory and you can't help it -- after you've heard it for the hundredth time, jokes about the "cowherdess" and the "snake song" are IMHO the only way to have a light moment out of it (the alternative being "AAARGH!").

For me, I also wonder why the audience gets so locked into demanding the same 1-2 lighter numbers from their favourite musicians. Even playback singers don't have to face that problem. It reminds me of how Jascha Heifetz's Hora staccato (a signature encore showing his bow control) got so popular he HAD to play it in at every concert wherever he went. After the 70th or so he started calling it "The Horrible Staccato!" You let the audience have their way, this is what they'll do.

Now Aruna, she likes to hammer the intensity by attacking every phrase and raising it to a crescendo before releasing it in a long kaarvai -- she does this in her kalpanaswaras as well as in her abhangs. My biggest gripe with AS is the amount of strain she puts on her voice.

And that's also my number 1 issue with Somu (although I understand he wouldn't be Somu without it). That Thodi clip of his was the result of all those years of singing like a man possessed day after day, but it doesn't detract from his achievements.

I've got issues with everyone and everything too, with special mention of the mediocrity of my own singing and playing. But I am not fond of turning this into an indulgence, as I fear my mind might permanently tune itself into a negative state in the long run. I'd rather see the good.

I like it that Somu sang a lot of thamizh numbers. CM needs a bit more of that actually. I admit that as a music student and rasika I have been in this business all these years and only now have some idea of what many compositions outside my mother tongue mean, and even in Tamil my elementary grasp of it means my ability to intuitively appreciate many compositions is severely handicapped.

PS : You're also from Singapore I see...

[kvchellappa]

A great lesson:
"I've got issues with everyone and everything too, with special mention of the mediocrity of my own singing and playing. But I am not fond of turning this into an indulgence, as I fear my mind might permanently tune itself into a negative state in the long run. I'd rather see the good."

[arasi]

Srinath,
Undoubtedly! You are the right mix of a healthy example of a rasikA. Intellectual keenness is an asset (how many with that gift we have at Rasikas.org!). However, tuning the mind into a negative state by harping on issues can be an indulgence. The result? A damper for musicians and fellow rasikAs alike...The fine art is sent to the surgery table once too often. Towards cure? I doubt it. The arts need appreciation for whatever components that please us--and analysis too, for a better understanding of it. Meanwhile, artistic expressions and appreciation of the fine arts of it should go on unimpeded. We cannot pretend to be the kings who indulged in 'produce that piece of poetry I 'order' this moment, pronto! If not, off with your head!' For a moment, I am with TMK for what he 'says' he believes in. Look at the material world--something which belonged to the elite is no more theirs alone--in buying a fancy car, jewelry or fine saris. All who have the money are able to do the same today. So be it with CM in drawing new listeners. That's how arts (as brands) flourish. The more the number of consumers of music, the merrier. Meanwhile, the artistes don't need to compromise by making all their fare jana ranjakam (people pleasing). Let music happen naturally and audience come to taste it on their own will to get the exposure and become keen rasikAs--all a natural progression--bless the march of technology too which aids us in this...

[rshankar]

It reminds me of how Jascha Heifetz's Hora staccato (a signature encore showing his bow control) got so popular he HAD to play it in at every concert wherever he went. After the 70th or so he started calling it "The Horrible Staccato!" You let the audience have their way, this is what they'll do.

Didn't something similar happen with Sri Chittibabu and his 'kuyil pATTu' as well?

[shankarank]

Didn't something similar happen with Sri Chittibabu and his 'kuyil pATTu' as well?

Confirm that one! I have heard that not just from Chitti himself, but also others who are his students ( or followers - my memory is vague), in the years where they possibly could not bring him as a child in tyagaraja utsavam! They all pause to do a cuckcoo with a string!

[shankarank]

For me, I also wonder why the audience gets so locked into demanding the same 1-2 lighter numbers from their favourite musicians.

Case Study. A Baby shower - Seemantham. Yours truly finished singing SrI mAtrubhUtam - appropriate song you would think?. The father's father (father-in-law) said it was good, but then asked, would I be considerate to people and sing pIlu or Bhimplas or Hindolam or Mohanam!

He actually was meeting all of them for first time, diverse in terms of where they were placed - some grown up U.S.A and married with Indian born and brought-ups, some in the U.S since 70s - but this man with no compunction carries all his notions of music all the way from West Mambalam and speaks for all of them!

If you want a cause for this state of affairs - there may be many - but I will state only my biased opinion: People have been sold this idea that they can listen (consume) to what they like? ( ooooh Am I from a diff. planet ? <- ) The modern consumerist society - and this started way back with popular music.

Instead the sense of sacred which says suspend your disbelief and just listen or at least let others listen - has been forgotten! (Do I sound like Steve Bannon against liberal MSMs? ) And we now think people like me are trying to invent this sense and divine it on people - if it had been there why is it not even innately acknowledged by most people?!

And then there is this devotional music. If music is itself divine ( Omkara is self referential - does not refer to anything else - something I heard in a talk - it is not same as Amen or Amin!) what is this devotional music?

We are in a pathetic state - that each one of the diverse traditions of India - today we can only understand using nEti vicAram against faiths outside the country! We cannot even compare one against the other!

Sri Sankaran Namboodiri comes to a temple concert in Dallas , does one Carnatic number , stops his accompanists and does one karaoke, alternating through out the concert in between declaring to his largely Keralite audience that Carnatic music continuously will put them off and so he is doing this. He already gave up on the Audience ( Game lost!!).

Sub Main: Bilahari - smara sada mAnasa! Main : tOdi - tAyE yaSOda! So that is supposedly professional Carnatic music that paid his airline bill and/or honorarium!

@Thenpanan in other threads where Sankaran Namboodiri's voice was discussed: He was swallowing the mike. But phenomenal voice. That we would put such a prodigy in such a state - we can only blame ourselves - it is a shame - not for him - but for all of us!!! Guruvayoorappa!!

[shankarank]

Anyone who calls Aruna Sayeeram "pombala Somu" needs not be taken seriously

So I am going to call Abhishek Raghuram - a BrahmaNa sOmu. Who the hell is Abhishek? What you are going to slit my throat now?

Figuratively that works! Abhishek is the brahminized version of Somu - no where near the isai veLLalar kaNIr voice - all reduced to a thin Brahman voice.

Only thing is he did not suffer the self esteem issues Somu might have ( all this humility stuff from Guru, And general caste related stuff.., ) - so he is this nifty Iyer Boy - a palghat version of Somu - who is able to express more calculative brilliance - not that Somu was not - but then Somu had to sing with Bhava, and all this Bhakti and humility all demands of his era ) - which has all changed now with what more artistic liberalized freedoms!

But he is bRahman - so even in his wayward landings has some Sashtraic precision - which Somu did not have the obligation to have - more folksy haphazardness - he could display - which would now come across very antique and rustic!

But Abhishek could sing more like a Super Singer appealing to millennials. He is also this Palghat/Thanjavur/Mylapore version of BMK - does not much croon - but can summon that touch!

But then he is only a Brahman - so he cannot really produce true music anyways! Only lakshana music!

take a listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_cLu9dYZWA

The percussionists also - what a Brahmanical precision - but lack the artistry/sound of the pillai vaLs! But still there is some excellence at least - that is undeniable - that in spite of being ignored by rasikas - they still somehow learn and pratice!

Now we have moved beyond just rAgas as music - there is music in other dimensions you see! Nothing can be "sub-altern" than something like Rhythm - it is just beats man!! - like parai which will be heard till the Canteen now - it cannot be really elite - all the elites profess disdainful ignorance ( oh I am not so much knowledgeable about layam!!) - as if they have more than passing knowledge of everything else..

sigh.....

[SrinathK]

@Thenpanan in other threads where Sankaran Namboodiri's voice was discussed: He was swallowing the mike. But phenomenal voice. That we would put such a prodigy in such a state - we can only blame ourselves - it is a shame - not for him - but for all of us!!! Guruvayoorappa!!

You can blame today's mics. Even if you have a powerful voice, those mics will not work until within swallowing range. I tried singing at the usual distance once -- it didn't work. Then I brought it closer, and closer and even closer, and when I got to the point where distance was a matter below the resolution of the human eye, the speakers very suddenly, started working.

[Nick H]

Swallow the mic and... Boom!

Literally. I think they call it the proximity effect: over-emphasises bass.

Yes. see here. Microphone Basics: What is the Proximity Effect?

I just chanced on that page via the usual search engine. Looks like it is good. Does what it says on the tin. Microphone basics!

[shankarank]

And then there is this devotional music. If music is itself divine ( Omkara is self referential - does not refer to anything else - something I heard in a talk - it is not same as Amen or Amin!) what is this devotional music?

Further thoughts on that. Music has left the former space and has gone to the latter space. What we call the auditorium where the seating itself is more like the space of "Amen". Nothing wrong with that, we absorbed it. We have every right to absorb it and create something new and call it our own - because we did not ask for it. It came. Even then we should see how we amalgamate the two or also have the version of the former alive on the side!

And there are some instances where people of that space ( of "Amen") also want to adopt the ways of this land in their spaces. Anything wrong with it? But we are well within the right to critique that just to have a dialogue! We have every right to push our view of things as well!

See : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA_VQdUMdeY

[prashant]

KVN sang superficial, easily attempted ragas, had limited creativity, wasn't particularly impressive, but had the following of the usual concert-goer with passable knowledge of carnatic music. Somu had something for the musicially accomplished, and the complete layman (can you imagine KVN or DKJ trying to sing Marudamalai mamaniye murugaiyya? Or attempting a Thodi with a tenth of the grandeur of Somu's?)

When in doubt, Mr. T always has the answer. Just replace "Balboa" with "bala747".

[sankark]

And rakti ragas? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM6fW0zfL1c Can anyone seriously tell me KVN conveyed raga bhava better?

Thanks sooooo much for that nAttaikurinji. The opening itself is agmark NK...

[bala747]

KVN sang superficial, easily attempted ragas, had limited creativity, wasn't particularly impressive, but had the following of the usual concert-goer with passable knowledge of carnatic music. Somu had something for the musicially accomplished, and the complete layman (can you imagine KVN or DKJ trying to sing Marudamalai mamaniye murugaiyya? Or attempting a Thodi with a tenth of the grandeur of Somu's?)

When in doubt, Mr. T always has the answer. Just replace "Balboa" with "bala747".

Sticks and stones.

I understand it's a matter of opinion. I wasn't particularly looking down on KVN (or DKJ) as a musician per se (or at least didn't mean to convey that impression). But when compared to the likes to Somu, MDR, etc he was a distant also-ran, and way overrated. It is like comparing Alan Border to Don Bradman.

[bala747]

But then he is only a Brahman - so he cannot really produce true music anyways! Only lakshana music!

I don't know why you mention the Brahmin part of it, like it has anything to do with anything.

take a listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_cLu9dYZWA

You are joking surely! You consider this good?! It is the auditory equivalent of a car-crash. Mispronounced words, overuse of brighas, no sense of sahitya-bhava, barely any ragabhava to speak of (though to be fair the very last line at 42:10 was good). Tell this idiot to back and learn the words of the krithi first, and sing it properly before trying out his audio-histrionics.

And THEN go slit your throat.

The percussionists also - what a Brahmanical precision - but lack the artistry/sound of the pillai vaLs! But still there is some excellence at least - that is undeniable - that in spite of being ignored by rasikas - they still somehow learn and pratice!

The percussion was horrible. Empty vessels being banged hard and fast at varying rates with no regard to the actual mood, rhythm or feel of the composition. As MVI used to say, they played one long thaniavarthanam from start to finish. He could be singing baa baa black sheep for all it mattered to those morons (and he would have messed the words of that up too). சாணிதட்டறவா எப்போதான் மிருதங்க வித்வான் ஆனாளோ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do4DDwld29A
or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xajE2WJqJ4g

Fairly certain everyone there is a brahmin, though there might be a Pillai on the mridangam for GNB. I hope that doesn't offend your sensibilities too much.

[prashant]

Sticks and stones.

I understand it's a matter of opinion. I wasn't particularly looking down on KVN (or DKJ) as a musician per se (or at least didn't mean to convey that impression). But when compared to the likes to Somu, MDR, etc he was a distant also-ran, and way overrated. It is like comparing Alan Border to Don Bradman.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect it, even though I consider it absolute BS. Peace.

[bala747]

Sticks and stones.

I understand it's a matter of opinion. I wasn't particularly looking down on KVN (or DKJ) as a musician per se (or at least didn't mean to convey that impression). But when compared to the likes to Somu, MDR, etc he was a distant also-ran, and way overrated. It is like comparing Alan Border to Don Bradman.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect it, even though I consider it absolute BS. Peace.

I don't respect you nor your opinion so it's all good.

[prashant]

[I don't respect you nor your opinion so it's all good.

Feeling is absolutely mutual, especially after reading some of the other passive-agreessive, bellicose junk you've posted on this forum. Enjoy.

[thenpaanan]

Swallow the mic and... Boom!

Literally. I think they call it the proximity effect: over-emphasises bass.

Yes. see here. Microphone Basics: What is the Proximity Effect?

I just chanced on that page via the usual search engine. Looks like it is good. Does what it says on the tin. Microphone basics!

I have seen people actually look for the distortion. Once when I was singing on stage, I noticed someone in the audience gesturing to me. It took me a minute to realize that the person was suggesting that I move closer to the mic. By my lights I thought I was at the right distance, about two feet, because I wanted the mic to catch the sound "off the air" and not blown down. I just stayed put but I was intrigued by why the person wanted me to move closer. One can never tell from the stage what the audience is hearing. After I went and sat down next to that person the next singer up moved the mic literally up to "kissing" distance. Now the proximity effect that you mention was very evident -- the mic was clearly distorting (to me, if you close your eyes and listen there should be no or minimal difference between the presence and absence of the mic, except for volume) but this person was very happy. He said he could finally "hear the singer". In another instance when I was singing in someone's home for navarAtri the host asked me to reduce the volume on my sruthi box (I endeavor to keep the sruthi nice and loud and sing strongly to be heard over the sruthi) so that he could "hear the words I was singing". Later on I asked someone else who was also there if they had trouble hearing the words before I turned down the sruthi and they said no.

To me such instances show that the CM audience is itself so inured to high decibel amplification that they feel something is missing if they don't hear the telltale distortion. In other instances I have seen male singers lean in especially close to the mic like a rock singer when they go to the lower register to extract the extra (fake) bass in their voice -- everyone wants to sound like MDR/Yesudas once in a while. So we are in a vicious cycle between performer and audience.

-T

[RSR]

Respected participants in this thread!.....All the vituperative comments are exposed while googling.. I am afraid, it will create a bad impression in the public mind. May I suggest that this type of heated exchange be done in the rasikas facebook rather than this forum? facebook gives option to limit the audience as desired. while this forum ( as I understand) has no such facility. (perhaps, I am wrong? yet to explore).

[kvchellappa]

At present there is only one who indulges in it with glee. Your well-meaning exhortation will be futile in that case.

[shankarank]

I see this issue with Sri Ravikiran's compositions ( deliberate?) and Sri Sriramkumar's as well!

And this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K790iX3c_O8 is what I would consider Proto-carnatic music!! Things like this gave us the dvitiyAkshara prAsa as well..

Tribute to sUlamangalam sisters ( one of whom merged with MuruganaDi recently) during the ongoing skanda ShaSTi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H73Mx5wMQCQ

The difference between that and kanda ShaSTi kavacam is proto-carnatic or carnatic music if you will.

Sri Vijay Siva sang this in the Dallas concert - all in one rAga. It will be good if some artiste replicates these rAgAs as is!

[bala747]

I would like to add S Kalyanaraman to that list!

By the way are there any other versions of the kandaranubhooti from that era? I recall hearing a really old rendition of the Kandaranubhooti but different set of ragas. My mother used to sing that one too.

[bala747]

Wasn't Pithukuli Murugadas as well, before anyone asks.

[shankarank]

I have seen people actually look for the distortion. ..the person was suggesting that I move closer to the mic. ....about two feet, because I wanted the mic to catch the sound "off the air" and not blown down. ....the next singer up moved the mic literally up to "kissing" distance. Now the proximity effect ....
-T

Case Study: Sri G. Ravikiran (TMK's student) just completed the Dallas recital last weekend. I did not venture to post a concert list as I had to leave the recital when Main piece was being sung due to personal emergencies. I guess I can still comment on the sound issues. The Mic. was positioned vertical facing almost upwards. I was trying to gesture the same thing - just turn it upfront towards himself. G.R - who has a good voice - for the most part was singing with his head perched to his right and upwards and moved well away from the Mic. , occasionally drifting in front the mike and back to sideways & up. I guess he was attempting something beyond what you wanted - music "up and down" the air . The ceiling was vanavaLAviya - high vaulted one!

All of them demanded their settings on feedback monitor. But I suppose at the end they all knew they didn't have the best audio config. for the day. They confirmed as much to people at the end of the concert - I checked the next day.

In this case, more than if the Mic. picked up his emitted voice or not, first off the direction of the Mic. is not optimal as half of cardiod sphere ( falling now in the house side of the zone) was in the direct line of sight( or sound) of the feedback speakers. Their efforts to set their volume correctly on their channel would be challenging here. Given that he is moving too much, two Mic.s one perched higher would have helped or simply if the Mic. faced the artiste it will pickup most of his sound. That was not the case. The balancing comes to naught with all other artistes having correct directional pickup for their instruments except the vocalist.

Now to the really

mic to catch the sound "off the air"

part. The Ghatam (Chandrasekara Sarma) had a pickup Mic. Now if just only one person, among four gets a pickup privilege that is bad enough. On top of it, the ping pong ball hitting the table sound from within was picked up and had no tone whatsoever. It is not the sound emitted and ringing with Sruti that was picked up. It was the Kumba vAsa ( varuNa) sound instead of kumba sambhava ( Agasthya) sound. It was an inside the "pot" experience for me

I checked with the front desk and one person in the know said this is the trend with Ghatam players now-a-days !

All texting with the sound man was of no avail and I was told the SM58 should pickup for "Shure" , if only the artiste sang into it! In other words he should not move! The sound man also had a ruse - that any change in settings will also impact the monitors, he said , using it as a threat , that he dare not be asked to change anything.

[SrinathK]

If I were a lawmaker, I'd take every one of these modern mics and have them banned. The singer has to sing straight into them and if he so much as moves an inch this way or that it's lost.

And then this high db culture.

[Nick H]

If I were a lawmaker, I'd take every one of these mics and have them banned.The singer has to sing so everyone in the hall can hear them

...There, as they say on the internet: fixed that for you So many rants, so many moans, even a few helpful suggestions, have been spewed onto the internet by audience members who want to hear a concert, not the failure of the artist and the sound crew to be able to do their jobs.

Obviously, the sound crew absolutely should be qualified persons with actual, real experience of microphones and the myriad of knobs on those panels, as well as a clear idea of what the music should sound like to the audience and to the musicians. "Obviously?" Ha ha... obviously not.

But the responsibility lies with the musicians too. How, I cry, with genuine pain, can they spend a whole life, even rising to stardom, without recognising that, second to their voice, it is the first and foremost tool of their trade? Well, I've asked before, and I expect I'll die asking.

At a recent IIT concerts, a couple of boys who looked hardly old enough to be students there were royally
and completely messing up. Well wishers were offering suggestions. I had my own ideas, but felt that I knew just enough to know to keep quiet! In the end, the ghatam player left the dais and went over to the sound board. He knew what he was doing and all was fixed in a very few minutes. There's two lessons here. First, don't give the sound board to unqualified people, and second, recognise that it is a difficult job which takes real skills and experience.

At a concert series last year, the sound men were sincerely trying, but just did not have the experience to match the peculiar acoustics of the hall. They more or less gave up. The audience didn't, and, instead of the usual silent suffering, they revolted.

I heard from a another rasika, the next day, that the sound people had been very upset. Boo Hoo. Good, It's time we upset a few more sound men. The guy who thought it wrong: I wonder how willing he is to pay staff that can't do their job?

It was tough in that hall. But there was a micing/levels formula that made it work. I was happy to congratulate the sound guys afterwards. But... If nobody had complained...

And then this high db culture

Elderly audience. Many going deaf, including me. Sound guys are dedicated to making sure we loose our hearing even faster.

[shankarank]

Obviously, the sound crew absolutely should be qualified persons with actual, real experience of microphones

A CM configuration of Mic.s mostly requires only rudimentary knowledge - beyond just knowing the sound system controls and functions. If a large 700 seater auditorium is sparsely occupied, requires a slight improvisation. Most of the issues are with monitor speakers and directions and if things go out of hand, best is to shut off the violin side of the monitor and use one center monitor. Instead of onstage monitor too close to artistes, a single monitor perched up on a center chair/seat in the front row or just in front of it will allow more volume increase.

This is all required to reduce the sharp / treble on most of the Mic's except some sharp enhancement for right (or left for some) side of the Mridangam.

There is no role for a sharp sound in Carnatic music!

How is that the same fully filled auditorium for Sanjay and Sudha sounds way better than with the same sparsely filled one for less popular artistes?

[Nick H]

A CM configuration of Mic.s mostly requires only rudimentary knowledge

That is what we see in action. And plainly, it is not enough.

Curiously, I have seen full-time engineers (which is what I'm sure they must be to even have jobs there) at venues like London's South Bank auditoriums screw up Indian music, either monitor or front of house... or both! So maybe there is more to CM/HM engineering than meets the eye!

[thenpaanan]

Case Study: Sri G. Ravikiran (TMK's student) just completed the Dallas recital last weekend. I did not venture to post a concert list as I had to leave the recital when Main piece was being sung due to personal emergencies. I guess I can still comment on the sound issues. The Mic. was positioned vertical facing almost upwards. I was trying to gesture the same thing - just turn it upfront towards himself. G.R - who has a good voice - for the most part was singing with his head perched to his right and upwards and moved well away from the Mic. , occasionally drifting in front the mike and back to sideways & up. I guess he was attempting something beyond what you wanted - music "up and down" the air . The ceiling was vanavaLAviya - high vaulted one!

All of them demanded their settings on feedback monitor. But I suppose at the end they all knew they didn't have the best audio config. for the day. They confirmed as much to people at the end of the concert - I checked the next day.

...

I got a dose of this from the other end just this weekend. I was drafted to put tambura for a local concert being the tambura "paitthiyam" that I am. I watched as the vocalist and violinist tried to set an equitable share of the db-age. The vocalist is the type who likes the mic within an inch of his mouth. And he likes to hear his sound. Now here is the kicker. He had complete control over the mixer panel which was right in front of him. But I guess he had no idea what it sounded like in the hall. No one said anything and I was behind the singer so I, much like Nick, kept my mouth shut. The vio wanted more sound so the overall gain was increased rather than just the violin alone. When no music is happening nothing was noticed. Once the action heated up in the varnam the feedback boom started and was driving me nuts. But the vocalist did not seem to hear it (or if he did, it did not seem to matter). Only when the feedback got so loud that the music was getting drowned out did the volume get adjusted. Eventually they settled down to something but (i) no one asked the audience if they were able to hear a balanced sound (perhaps they would not have been able to give a good answer anyway) and (ii) after the boom any sound that does not have feedback seems acceptable.

The tambura was not mic'ed. Thankfully.

This is not to make fun of the artists but rather to lament the pathetic state of knowledge that exists. How many Intel engineers does it take to figure this out? In this case we could not even blame it on an inexpert sound man. But rather I think the flaw is in our weird sense of aesthetics. We like it loud, distortingly loud. From my perch it felt like the proximity effect (thanks to Nick for introducing me to this term) was clipping out all the upper harmonics of the singer's marvelous voice (he has a playback singer quality voice). And to top it all this is entirely self-inflicted. The setting was someone's home and there was no constraint except for the natural acoustic limitations of a home. And four mic's were used, including two for the mridangam, in a space small enough that even if no mic was used it would have been quite audible (no doubt with a different balance). Here the problem was not the mic. It seems our idea of what is desirable sound itself needs to be fixed.

-T

[SrinathK]

4 mics, in a home? Loud enough to cause feedback?

[Nick H]

That is the absurd state of affairs, among listeners and musicians.

There's no answer, until people have the sense to start complaining, and complaining loud!

[thenpaanan]

To me whether a piece of music is light or not depends only on the effort put in by the performer and the effort put in by the listener to appreciate the music. My friend Warren Senders once told me there is a difference between "pretty music" and "beautiful music" but the difference is hard to articulate. In my own opinion in extension to this, light music is when you can easily enjoy the music. Really serious music is when I have to hang on to every note and listen with all my effort to appreciate it. In this view then lightness of a piece depends very much on both the listener and performer and it may differ at the two ends of the same audio channel. There are no universal definitions -- a listener may have to struggle to appreciate a piece that a musician may have performed casually and conversely a musician may have put in his heart and soul into a piece but the listener may not appreciate the effort (but still like it) because the listener is at a different level of maturity (sometimes higher than the musician's). To me a musical piece or a performance is serious when I perceive that the musician has not taken the easy way out or taken shortcuts in the music. But these shortcuts can be a matter of perception. For example when I find an otherwise accomplished singer sing a "heavy" kriti mechanically and without involvement I take it as light music. Many "filler" or transitional pieces at a carnAtic concert would fall into this category -- but even lighter music has its place. It is sometimes hard to last out an ustAd amIr khAn concert because of its relentless intensity and hard to last out a (modern) paNDiT jasrAj concert because of boredom. I have felt that way about many Ariyakudi pieces only to learn that making a difficult piece sound easy can also be serious.

When we listen to children singing at an ArAdhanai, for example, most times we perceive the music as simple and listen easily without much effort. Then unexpectedly a child comes along and knocks your socks off and you start listening carefully for nuances that you did not pay attention to a moment before. That music went from being light to serious right there.

In my own estimation, I found Somu's to be very serious music most of the time -- even when he is crooning or belting out one of his popular songs I find myself having to listen very carefully because tucked in somewhere in the middle of an otherwise ordinary piece you could find a flash of brilliance but you dont know when it will happen. On the other hand I found santAnam's singing light because it was easy to listen to and without any complexity, expected or otherwise. But I am quite sure santAnam himself took his music very seriously and his fans consider his music serious. Not that it is necessarily easier to sing such music -- I was once requested by an otherwise appreciative uncle to sing mOhanam like santAnam did. I simply could not. It may not be intense as someone else's mohanam but it is definitely not easy to do yourself. It is important not to belittle "light" music.

By the same token many people dismiss film music as "light" and not worthy of keen listening. I have found many a song by Rafi or Kishore or Lata quite intense -- the way they negotiated tricky passages in the lyrics or the melody seemingly very casually or modulated the voice without cracking has to be appreciated for the effort put in and the talent. On the other hand I find many of Jagjit Singh's songs pretty but not serious.

Finally I find that with time my notion of light vs serious has undergone change. For example I used to find KVN's jagadOdhAraNA very intense but now when I listen to the same recording it sounds light. Clearly it is I who have changed, not the music.

-T

[shankarank]

For example I used to find KVN's jagadOdhAraNA very intense but now when I listen to the same recording it sounds light. Clearly it is I who have changed, not the music.

You have to listen in time dimension too!! You can listen to his 1975 Diskhitar MA concert on Sangeethapriya - especially Angarakam!

When a great music is created in melodic dimension, but not enlivened in time dimension - it is like vaccum - created and destroyed immediately!

[shankarank]

In this regard, I would enjoin you to listen to Sri Tadepalli Lokanatha Sarma's AIR National broadcast with Smt. Naramadha and Trivandrum Vaidyanathan! In Sangeethapriya!

Especially inta saukya in kApi!! There may be a teaching method or two in there - without much sangatifying! The kARvai method of teaching the song - just the AAS without worrying about phrasal nuances - well I may be mistaken - he might have indulged in there too - but on the surface it doesn't look like it! See how he contorts the position of the syllables - you cannot even figure out taLa positions. Trivandrum Vaidyanathan has some tough time there initially.

I thought of posting it for a ling time ever since you spoke about full voice vs. melodic nuances ( about a student being appreciated for the latter).

[thenpaanan]

You have to listen in time dimension too!! You can listen to his 1975 Diskhitar MA concert on Sangeethapriya - especially Angarakam!

When a great music is created in melodic dimension, but not enlivened in time dimension - it is like vaccum - created and destroyed immediately!

Indeed. My general feeling is that with greats like KVN and Nedunuri the sound and the approach can vary significantly over time. Both mellowed considerably with age and there was always a delightful question to consider -- will the music be full of effort (presumably in the 70s both these artists were vying to make their mark) and you can enjoy their full application of their hearts and minds, or will the music be full of grace and maturity where the artists now apply their great insights of experience and eschew the obvious to bring out the subtle? But both are wonderful and necessary for us to appreciate the core of the art.

-T

[sureshvv]

@bala747:

Re. Post #74.

Please use <quote> and </quote> properly so we know what you are quoting and what your personal opinion is (Use square brackets instead of the angle brackets).

[thenpaanan]

You have to listen in time dimension too!! You can listen to his 1975 Diskhitar MA concert on Sangeethapriya - especially Angarakam!

Finally I think this old tubelight is flickering with understanding of your "time dimension".

If I undersand correctly, you mean the "vishrAntI" in singing that is usually missing in concert singing. I once asked B Rajam Iyer this question -- he had just sung a breathtaking jambUpatE at his home in Amherst at a level of quietude that I had never heard before. I was compelled to blurt out that I'd never heard this song or any song sung like that at a concert. He smiled and said even he would not sing like this in a concert. He said something to the effect of (I have to translate from a very slang Tamil) the typical background noise in sabhAs is so high that quiet singing is simply not appreciated. He seemed to suggest that the violin and mridangam are necessary to drown out the street noises, audience talking, etc. otherwise he said it is hard to concentrate. "Namba summA irundA, avA sattamdAn varum" (if we keep quiet, their, ie audience's, noise only will be heard).

I guess this is not the case in elite places like MA or chamber concerts. Even KVN's concerts tended to have more vishrAnti in the US than in India in my analysis. Perhaps ambient noise is a major cause. And furthermore why Carnatic music sounds so different in home practice sessions than on the stage.

-T

[shankarank]

He seemed to suggest that the violin and mridangam are necessary to drown out the street noises, audience talking, etc.

What? Now you made them like mangaLa vadyam in marriages (so amangaLa vacanams are drowned out!). They have also to look for survival in temples/marriages now?

BR has a voice delivery issue to match the gait of percussion may be! But no, I did not mean quietitude and some slow and serene music.

One ways of the ways it manifests : an acute awareness of intervals even if you deviate!

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkVntoS_nFk - he does not have it. You can see at the edges of endings. UKS muscles through. There is no sign of interaction - not the body language or eye contact - but even before that his musical flow needs to interact!.

And look here: https://youtu.be/HUCo9Mwotas?t=235 - an abrupt stop to the flow and you can see traces of trouble before and after this. It only takes one pre-YACM era Mridangist to bring this out.

Sometimes the hidden weaknesses of gurus who overcame through intense sAdhakam - will be visible in their Sishyas .

He has a problem too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD_NVrV61zk - Sanjay was somewhat strong in his earlier days. Sandeep wanted to absorb all the melody and has done it.

After hearing Sandeep in the young competition winner slot, the Grundig tape collector who attended his Tuesday performance in Cleveland ( working day for me) , came back raving that here is the next TNS!. I don't think even he will try to say that now!!

In spite of that Sandeep would have fared better with a regimented composition like kalambam Bhajare as against a kARvai filled EtA vunnAra!

More examples: Unnikrishnan has the issue. But not Sowmya. Both float their syllables well beyond their composed limits. This is in spite of the fact that Sowmya sings ( or intends to sing) without sharp angles! So this has to be seen beyond some Male bastion thing.

Here they are singing with their vertebrae: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgnFuoEzGQ8 - just another pre-YACM era Mridangist! There were all the videos of other GNB songs with electrifying violin returns from that year missing now!

I think GNB's music did not reflect it due to the speed. But inspite of strong tALam and rhythmic technicalities, such awareness is missing in MLV's music.

Vijay Siva does not even tread there - the issue there is more emission of kARvai. He is another Mridangist with strong kAla paramANam. So it is not even a maintenance of speed issue.

And there are others imperfect in tALA aspect itself - cannot even be considered here.

viSrAnti is built , some basic ways into compositions themselves - so even a break neck nenaruncinAnu will express it. It will be felt in the way the musician wades through syncopation for example.

And this aspect was taken for granted across most musicians in the Golden era - as I repeatedly hear great concerts in the Auto Chamber! Not anymore!

[sankark]

He seemed to suggest that the violin and mridangam are necessary to drown out the street noises, audience talking, etc.

What? Now you made them like mangaLa vadyam in marriages (so amangaLa vacanams are drowned out!). They have also to look for survival in temples/marriages now?

BR has a voice delivery issue to match the gait of percussion may be! But no, I did not mean quietitude and some slow and serene music.

One ways of the ways it manifests : an acute awareness of intervals even if you deviate!

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkVntoS_nFk - he does not have it. You can see at the edges of endings. UKS muscles through. There is no sign of interaction - not the body language or eye contact - but even before that his musical flow needs to interact!.

And look here: https://youtu.be/HUCo9Mwotas?t=235 - an abrupt stop to the flow and you can see traces of trouble before and after this. It only takes one pre-YACM era Mridangist to bring this out.

Sometimes the hidden weaknesses of gurus who overcame through intense sAdhakam - will be visible in their Sishyas .

He has a problem too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD_NVrV61zk - Sanjay was somewhat strong in his earlier days. Sandeep wanted to absorb all the melody and has done it.

After hearing Sandeep in the young competition winner slot, the Grundig tape collector who attended his Tuesday performance in Cleveland ( working day for me) , came back raving that here is the next TNS!. I don't think even he will try to say that now!!

In spite of that Sandeep would have fared better with a regimented composition like kalambam Bhajare as against a kARvai filled EtA vunnAra!

More examples: Unnikrishnan has the issue. But not Sowmya. Both float their syllables well beyond their composed limits. This is in spite of the fact that Sowmya sings ( or intends to sing) without sharp angles! So this has to be seen beyond some Male bastion thing.

Here they are singing with their vertebrae: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgnFuoEzGQ8 - just another pre-YACM era Mridangist! There were all the videos of other GNB songs with electrifying violin returns from that year missing now!

I think GNB's music did not reflect it due to the speed. But inspite of strong tALam and rhythmic technicalities, such awareness is missing in MLV's music.

Vijay Siva does not even tread there - the issue there is more emission of kARvai. He is another Mridangist with strong kAla paramANam. So it is not even a maintenance of speed issue.

And there are others imperfect in tALA aspect itself - cannot even be considered here.

viSrAnti is built , some basic ways into compositions themselves - so even a break neck nenaruncinAnu will express it. It will be felt in the way the musician wades through syncopation for example.

And this aspect was taken for granted across most musicians in the Golden era - as I repeatedly hear great concerts in the Auto Chamber! Not anymore!

Whew. Flew so much above my head, it might as well not exist for me. Though very interesting to read to figure it out - hope to get there sometime soon, in this lifetime. Someone needs to write a kArikA or tIpIkA or bhAshyam on this visrAnti for shankaranks visrAntisUtrams.

[sureshvv]

Yep. The Grand Unification Theory!