Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

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vijay.siddharth
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by vijay.siddharth »

Music wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 21:00 Examples of relatively less accenting of laya - BMK, Voleti
I feel both BMK and Voleti are very laya heavy, but they don't flaunt it with the bravado TN Seshagopalan does or Sanjay sometimes. Voleti especially would engage in these long winding sangathis during swaraprastahram where he would summarise what he was going to sing before singing it, and landed exactly on samam without effort. BMK's thillanas (like the Garudadhwani thillana) are clear expressions of his laya genius in this domain, as was his swaraprastharam.

kvchellappa
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by kvchellappa »

I feel Voleti is different from BMK.

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by vijay.siddharth »

In vocalisation and style, yes. But I feel they both have an equally strong grasp over laya vishayams.

Music
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by Music »

I have to clarify what I mentioned about laya. BMK, Voleti etc., every artist has a deep sense of laya, there is no doubt about it. One cannot be even an artist without having laya. Also, regardless of artist, compositions by themselves have have so much laya built within them. By laya, I am pointing to the pulse inherent in a song....I don't mean kanakku. Some styles of singing don't accent the laya heavily. They sing it very smoothly, and do not explicitly vocalize the pulse of the song. Not sure if I explained this well, will see if can give an audio example.

sureshvv
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by sureshvv »

narayara000 wrote: 13 Sep 2017, 07:36
SrinathK wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 20:18 Only he and Yesudas AFAIK sing those plain note brighas.

Something about these "plain note brighas" turns me off, it feels kind of unnatural or something...
Can someone point me to where I can hear these? Sounds like an oxymoron.

SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

vijay.siddharth wrote: 13 Sep 2017, 17:56 Let me make a very controversial statement - listening to both B-M's rendition of Aligithe (Huseni) and Balamurali's rendition of Aligithe, I feel the latter beats the former hands down. I feel, being a Telugu person (from the Godavari delta, no less), BMK was able to convey the emotion of the padam better than B-M, who focussed more on the musical aspects of the composition.
You might be referring to this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvqmWjFXpJ4 - Now that's what I meant when I said BMK can also sing like THIS. When he sings without all that gimmickry, his emotional impact is at another level.

Also, his telugu pronunciation is terrific, being his native language.

And if you have a recording of B-M's aligite, please send it. In the Dhannamal legacy thread in the musicians' section, I put a list of their padams and javalis up which I had dredged out of the internet - I had an idea to use that thread for sharing those. If you have some others apart from those, do send them to me.

varsha
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by varsha »

Now that we have a critical mass of views , I will attempt to consolidate my opinions

1.It is better to assess both Somu and BMK individually rather than using the template of lightness as a perception by rasikas
2.Somu , we can revisit.
Two decades ago , in this very forum , Somus home, was the first artist we picked , to pay a visit . Visiting the home of a long forgotten hero .Sadly those pages of rasikas are lost.Maybe we can recapitulate , but the difference when compared to BMK is very stark .I will attempt BMK here.
3.The pluses of BMK are not debatable.
Virtuosity , Technical brilliance,ability to raise goosebumps ( the only time I experienced goose bumps in a concert hall was in Sastri Hall as he sang srI nArasimha...) , range of areas of expertise , mastery over language and diction and so on.
4.Where he lost out was , in my opinion
a) Finding his , and justifying the , delicate balance between conservative prudery and value systems of a new age explorer.Keepin in mind that ours is an age where the romance of a Columbus , Neil Armstrong and an Edmund Hillary is difficult to assimilate without moving ourselves into those time frames . something TRS epitomised.
b) His cardinal error in declaring in the 80s, that he was bigger than the system . My music is not Carnatic Music.It is more .It is murali music. He declared .Got a feeling that he thought he was a God.Though none of us know how God speaks.
c) His presence on the carnatic firmament was like a runner distancing himself from other runners .On a track of his own.
d) A buoyed up ego that went on trips like largest number of albums cut ….
e) Needless straying into political , legal zones .
f) Too much in love with himself to see himself a link in a long chain .

So How does he end up in my books ?
1.Only few ragas where he has left a haunting legacy for ages in terms of exploring the scale –
2.Many ragas untouched in the manner of test match playing.
3.1965 as the laxman rekha after which his concerts failed to give me a feeling of the ethereal
4.Closing my eyes , the first image that explodes on my consciousness is of an impish clownish vidwan.And he deliberately chose that !!!
5.Programms – some short some long – which are horribly jarring to my ears in the domain of aesthetics.Some could be tortuous
6.Somebody who had tried writing War and Peace and had lost the plot midway.
7.One who showed me visions of divinity through E thiruga nanu , dudukoogala , nambide ninna nada devatheye , varnams , charukesis , abhogi-valaji gunnybag races, astapadis,sunada-, hamsa vinodinis ,Grahabheda dalliances with Lalgudi .
8.And I don’t complain . My world would still be poorer without him.

https://archive.org/details/Bmk-eethiru ... RAmdAs_bmk
I wish ALL of his music was like this .Anyway
Last edited by varsha on 14 Sep 2017, 09:55, edited 1 time in total.

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by vijay.siddharth »

SrinathK wrote: 13 Sep 2017, 23:21 And if you have a recording of B-M's aligite, please send it. In the Dhannamal legacy thread in the musicians' section, I put a list of their padams and javalis up which I had dredged out of the internet - I had an idea to use that thread for sharing those. If you have some others apart from those, do send them to me.
I vaguely remember listening to a recording a couple years ago in a CD - will try to track this down


SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

Thank you so much!

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 19:17 I mean, just listen to this (it's just a sample) :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca7_QB16cio Now listen to that for a whole concert.
More samples - this time with able senior on one side. https://youtu.be/S1k8V-eEMYI?t=440 Shows you that Krishna ( I mean BMK) and Cauvery can never meet :lol: - the texture of flow of laya viSranti is different!. TKM trying to be a tabla artist :lol: :lol:

We have to get off this notion passed down by pedagogy that melody alone is music!

And in national media everywhere , people still allowed this notion that everything is impromptu for Carnatic music - when it is backed by a grand architecture : Sanskriti (the laya viSranti a significant portion of that) - the much hated word which conjures up visions of panchakacham , kuDumi and anga vastram - that has to be sidelined for national progress!

https://youtu.be/4EsaQybktzM?t=883
Last edited by shankarank on 18 Sep 2017, 00:49, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

And Sir it is not just the sadas , that dealt a blow to percussionists in 1927 - https://youtu.be/4EsaQybktzM?t=1350 . It also eventually happened to Tabla artists as well. They were made Caddies!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/musi ... ppies.html
He could be a man of baffling contradictions, whose outward appearance of humility and spirituality could disguise a certain hauteur. Reflecting fondly on his faithful and long-serving tabla-player, Alla Rakha, who accompanied him for 27 years, Shankar once observed that he was finally obliged to dispense with his services; not because Rakha was “rather fond of a drink or two”, not even because of his strange obsession with Bonanza and Hawaii Five-O, but because “I needed someone younger, not only as an accompanist but to carry all my shoulder bags.”

SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

BMK can sing that same Hindolam with beautiful feeling as well : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W2lpvhzjyY
Of all the recordings I have, this one is special because this was the one that introduced me to his music.

Speaking of the "serious Carnatic" -- I have observed that there are 5 effects that give the result of "lightness" in singing

1) The fade -- where you are expected to do a kampita or jharu and you end up fading it into softness instead of going all the way to the landing note
2) The pianissimo (mellinam) - It's fine when you do it on a whole phrase, but when you do it on one particular syllable or note, it sounds light
3) The slur - instead of heavier gamakas in dhattu phrases like md gm sg ns (hindolam), the phrases are slurred with a smooth (but one-dimensional) slide joining the notes. It's an instrumental effect best demonstrated on the violin.
4) The vibrato -- Using it in any manner beyond "salt in the food" can make it look filmy, and worse, overdone. The paradox here is that the vibrato is actually a very heavy effect when rendered through the voice. On a violin or a veena it works very well, because it's naturally light and not intrusive -- you can shape the tone with it, but with the voice it has to be delicately done. Do it on a note where it's not needed and it can sound "filmy", especially when surrounded by a plethora of plain notes.
5) The way the mridangam is played - if the mridangam is played more in that simple 4/4 you hear in films (esp. Malayalam CM based film songs), it can give that effect.

GNB, MSS (more in her films), Brinda & Mukta (they sang it exactly like a fast and and narrow kampita on the veena at select notes for that gamaka, which as a matter of fact, it is) are some examples who really handled that vibrato in a classic CM fashion. Now Somu, he really cooked his vibrato to extremes, sometimes crossing into opera territory. Seerkazhi Govindarajan also used it.

ARI had a wolf-note like vibrato that came if he tried forcing his voice, it was not a controlled vibrato.

If you ask me, CM violinists could use it just a tad more, it enhances the tone of the instrument.

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

Can you enumerate the vibratos in this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5dDmqSMC_o

Are these too slow inflections to be in that list?

1) the tam in bhUtam
2) lAmbA in kuntalAmbA - how do you notate that? Is there any symbol for it in msakella staple? Trying to sing that crashes me.
3) kam in sOma sakam, kam in Sukha sanakam
4) vi in kamAdi vijaya - this one can come any number of ways if one tries it -
5) di in vAsavAdi - this one too - he is consistent twice
6) dE in vAsudEva
7) tA in rahitAnta

Or Are these just MMI specificities - like caused by the shape of his specific vocal passage?

SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

1) In the opening line, MMI uses a bit of vibrato on sree-mAtru (G,, M, D,), but in bhUtam - bhU goes like PMP and tam is MPGM which because of the gamaka on the G sounds like MPMM. So that's not a vibrato. A vibrato is oscillating on one note.

2) kun, ta lAm, bA goes like D , D N SD P with the lA = N SD . A gamaka on the N followed by a glide from S to D will do it. If you actually try singing this in swaras you will sing it as N D or S D or D D , but the gamakas within are the same.

3) the gamakas on the kam are kampitas on the D2 between D and S. Alternatively they are a NS followed by a slow slide down to D. (S)D NS (S)D

4) vi in vijaya is a simple slide from P to G with a bit of attack on the P

5) di is kampita (MP)

6) dE is also one form of slur like SD SD D -- the 1st kampita is smaller, the 2nd extended and the 3rd D is a janta. In notation, you would actually only label the phrase as D D D - 2 kampitas + 1 janta. Admittedly, these are very difficult to notate. 3 Ds, all 3 are different

7) tA in rahitAnta is - MD-DPP . MD is a slide, the next D doesn't have a janta, but the P-P is a janta. It sounded to me like MD-PMP, but after slowing it down to 0.5x, it turned out to be MD-DPP. I mean, he could have put a janta on the DD also, but he didn't. These variations in gamaka make it very difficult to notate, especially MMI, because he often combined plain noted with gamakas like this.

And these microscopic details are what differentiate various singers from each other even when they sing the same sangati. Many of these gamakas will appear only in chauka kala compositions - not in madhyamakala ones. You will not find these complexities in madhyamakala songs. There is no time to create these microscopic nuances in them. From a gamaka perspective, madhyamakala songs are easy.

Often these gamakas are so microscopic they can only be understood by hearing in person or slowing the playing down to 50% or 33%

However, getting rid of these and replacing them with simple fades and slides can turn this into "light" stuff.

kvchellappa
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by kvchellappa »

Great discussion, great to me partly because I do not understand technically, but can get a glimpse of its 'musicality'.

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

Thanks for that. I suppose the "gam" at the end of kamanIyAngam : https://youtu.be/K5dDmqSMC_o?t=122 will qualify as a vibrato then?

I was misunderstanding from the definition laid out:
a rapid, slight variation in pitch in singing or playing some musical instruments, producing a stronger or richer tone.
But in certain context , given that in CM the sense of rAgam guides the expression of phrases , any attempt at vibrato - won't draw in a phrase from the ragam?. Even in the above it comes out as something like mpmgm! - where a pulsating ma draws in p and g?!

May be a scalar type pentatonic with a plain note usage - lot of spacing from neighbors - may not draw in neighboring notes!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Excellent and mature discussion. Thanks all. Yes, Somu and BMK belong in different buckets. My relationship with the music of BMK/Jesudas is along the lines of many of you. I did not know why that was, now I have a slightly better idea.

Varsha mentioned about BMK's Abhogi. Interestingly I had the chance to listen to his huge film hit 'Thanga radam vandadu'. A focused listening of that song revealed to me how great a job he had done with that song.

varsha
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by varsha »

vk
Been missing you for a long time !!!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Varsha. Been busy. Popping in for janitorial duties and participate in great threads like this.

The problem with any discussion on BMK is, the big time BMK fans do not want to consider the nuanced position we all are taking here. I have a friend like that and any time there is something positive he encounters about BMK he will send me that and ask 'What say you now?' ;) My reply is "What can I say? that is awesome' and invariably the next turn of conversation is him asking indirectly 'Do you now take back everything you said before?' :)

SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

vasanthakokilam wrote: 22 Sep 2017, 00:58 Thanks Varsha. Been busy. Popping in for janitorial duties and participate in great threads like this.

The problem with any discussion on BMK is, the big time BMK fans do not want to consider the nuanced position we all are taking here. I have a friend like that and any time there is something positive he encounters about BMK he will send me that and ask 'What say you now?' ;) My reply is "What can I say? that is awesome' and invariably the next turn of conversation is him asking indirectly 'Do you now take back everything you said before?' :)
Vk, one can never win an argument against emotion, or even persuade it to understand any way but it's own... it is a form of existence that is as wonderful as it is dangerous :lol: :mrgreen: -- one who can master and play with it cannot be less than a siddha. :lol:

rajeshnat
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by rajeshnat »

VK
Even though the thread has questions on BMK vs Somu , all the points were only with BMK .Move this thread to BMK vidwan and vidushi thread.
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=126

Our vara prasadam in this thread or almost any thread is the musical acumenship of srinathk who gives more pointers on how I and many of us feel that way ?

varsha
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by varsha »

Even though the thread has questions on BMK vs Somu
Wrong
It is
BMK & Somu - Serious carnatic or not ?

varsha
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by varsha »

https://archive.org/details/SomuKazhugumalaiRTPTOdi

Some light music this !!! gravity defying ...Every time I play this in my home,people walk carefully , fearing a fall from the precipice.
And what a glorious sight of the horizon at the summit with a grahebhedam
And back to the rumble tumble of this everyday world.

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

Whether music is Heavy or Light - no dearth of lighter moments : https://youtu.be/meH1BHPEhVc?t=228 - in that gotcha grin (the violinist didn't catch her svarams @ sAma vEda SirO ), she disgraced her center of the world - the world of modest beginnings at the SS Street Karamana - which the Finnish Indologist Asko Parpola, after collecting his hefty sum from Kalaignar, visited :


http://www.karmakerala.com/guide/agraha ... puram.html
At first, his queries drew a blank. Nobody had ever heard of such a name. But, the scholar's persistent enquiries yielded results when a resident of the S.S. Street in Karamana, remembered that it had once been called the kozhakka theruvu. This must have been the name of kuzhai kathan Street that Dr. Parpola had come in search of.

thenpaanan
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by thenpaanan »

SrinathK wrote: 18 Sep 2017, 23:07 BMK can sing that same Hindolam with beautiful feeling as well : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W2lpvhzjyY
Of all the recordings I have, this one is special because this was the one that introduced me to his music.

Speaking of the "serious Carnatic" -- I have observed that there are 5 effects that give the result of "lightness" in singing
In my opinion what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable vocal technique (aka "serious" vs "light" in CM, since in CM light is a pejorative descriptor) is totally arbitrary in any given system of music (perhaps culture-specific is a better term in the sense that no logic is necessary).
SrinathK wrote: 18 Sep 2017, 23:07 1) The fade -- where you are expected to do a kampita or jharu and you end up fading it into softness instead of going all the way to the landing note
2) The pianissimo (mellinam) - It's fine when you do it on a whole phrase, but when you do it on one particular syllable or note, it sounds light
3) The slur - instead of heavier gamakas in dhattu phrases like md gm sg ns (hindolam), the phrases are slurred with a smooth (but one-dimensional) slide joining the notes. It's an instrumental effect best demonstrated on the violin.
These things seem to be tolerated depending on who it was. MDR used a lot of pianissimo in his singing (perhaps the powers that be looked down on it just like they did his low-pitch/slow singing). Veena Dhanam was praised for it but others were castigated for it. In other words this works like the world of fashion design. Something is beyond the pale until someone established does it, when it becomes "revolutionary". These days I hear a lot of these in the singing of the Ra-Ga duo that would have caused the Mylapore lot to frown in past years.
SrinathK wrote: 18 Sep 2017, 23:07
4) The vibrato -- Using it in any manner beyond "salt in the food" can make it look filmy, and worse, overdone. The paradox here is that the vibrato is actually a very heavy effect when rendered through the voice. On a violin or a veena it works very well, because it's naturally light and not intrusive -- you can shape the tone with it, but with the voice it has to be delicately done. Do it on a note where it's not needed and it can sound "filmy", especially when surrounded by a plethora of plain notes.
...
GNB, MSS (more in her films), Brinda & Mukta (they sang it exactly like a fast and and narrow kampita on the veena at select notes for that gamaka, which as a matter of fact, it is) are some examples who really handled that vibrato in a classic CM fashion. Now Somu, he really cooked his vibrato to extremes, sometimes crossing into opera territory. Seerkazhi Govindarajan also used it.

ARI had a wolf-note like vibrato that came if he tried forcing his voice, it was not a controlled vibrato.

If you ask me, CM violinists could use it just a tad more, it enhances the tone of the instrument.

This reminded me of this website that I keep going back to: https://www.wikihow.com/Sing-Vibrato. Vibrato is a naturally occurring phenomenon due to the construction of the vocal chords. I always wondered why vibrato is frowned upon in CM. It is used aplenty in film music and folk music but is somehow considered too "vulgar" for our refined tastes. I love how TMS has this tremendous vibrato in his upper register but it is more challenging to sing a natural vibrato in the lower registers. Somu was an absolute show-off when it came to these things and it was spectacular, but then he could also overdo it.

-T

SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

One peculiarity that happened with Yesudas is that his voice sort of got stuck in a vibrato whenever he attempted to sing an extended kaarvai - you can see this whenever he starts with Sa Pa Sa.

Vibrato needs to be done very carefully in CM. It is a heavy effect in the voice and can easily sound shaky or unstable, especially when there is so much shaking already. However the effect is well used on the veena, the violin and especially the nagaswaram where it gives a special intensity to their sound.

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: 18 Sep 2017, 23:07 BMK can sing that same Hindolam with beautiful feeling as well : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W2lpvhzjyY
As I listened to that, two hindolams came next in sequence.

What makes it clearly Carnatic at a very gross level obviously is the choice of percussion ( Mridangam vs. Tabla). But a comparison of how vAtana vinOda is handled between the two clinches the issue:

Ghantasala: https://youtu.be/2-QuLr4fiZg?t=222

BMK: https://youtu.be/gsyc8j2mcOo?t=247

GhantasAla is completely unaware of the proportion of the kArvais in the way he positions the syllables. That might very well be the result of the type of melodic focus in his music. If he were to get a Mridangam instead and become aware of the syllables the way they align to arudhis, irrespective of type of intonation, Carnatic hear and feel will be restored.

And that happens with Dr BMK.

So even if I am transported to a culture which has a different definition of what is light vs. heavy in terms of melody, I have a substrate method to identify Carnatic music : High fives - and High Brows! :roll: :roll: ( replacements for the absent high-brow emoticon :twisted:). I get that feel sometimes even with Country/Jazz music - but CM has a unique feel in that regard!

And there are people who swear in Andhra, that music cannot be listened to, after Ghantasala! How are they ever going to see what is Carnatic?. They cannot understand the source of sweetness and potential of Telugu, as it is their language. Stuck they are with their notions of meaning vs. feeling!

Keralites are relatively luckier I should say :lol:

So went my equation in one of those threads :

CM = BMK -(minus) Ghantasala!
Last edited by shankarank on 17 Oct 2017, 10:30, edited 1 time in total.

sureshvv
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by sureshvv »

SrinathK wrote: 17 Oct 2017, 08:02 One peculiarity that happened with Yesudas is that his voice sort of got stuck in a vibrato whenever he attempted to sing an extended kaarvai - you can see this whenever he starts with Sa Pa Sa.
There is also the vibrato filled "Aaaauuuuuummmmmm" he starts his concerts with.

SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

@thenpanaan, You have a point. If you were to look at those old gramaphone recordings of yesteryear artists, they're all pretty folksy in comparison to what we have today. However I would describe it as raw, rather than light. Light = A certain detail of gamaka action that you expect should be there, which isn't and is replaced by something more approximate + a certain intensity of tone that's not there. One thing that CM used to be known for is the ability to maintain a strong tone - this type of ringing forte' or fortissmo is explicitly avoided in light / film music, almost as if it were a tonal 'foil' to classical music.

Ranjani & Gayathri to my ears, are not light - delicate is the word I would use. They sing passages delicately and smooth out their transitions from swara to swara, but it's so much that it's "light". If you ask me, it's a smart move. They aren't straining their voices and it will help their longevity. In this regard, even KVN was also on the delicate side.

The current generation of musicians also use the slow tempo to create a different aesthetic, in which some of these more delicate glides and gamakas are possible. But even this may be too "floaty" and sound light to ears that are used to heavier, madhyamakala passages. I confess it took me a concert or half a dozen to get used to it when I first started hearing live concerts (that was a long time ago).

In fact Brindamma made a style out of it by lightening and tapering her voice off in the upper octave, while it was quite heavy in both timbre and gamakas elsewhere.

Now if you want to hear a naturally 'heavy' voice amongst the ladies, MLV comes to my mind (if you've heard her at her prime).

Maharajapuram Santhanam's mOhanam was unique as he used a lot of plain notes, but I can't call it light. He had a mastery over the falsetto that was unique to him.

Now the vibrato, that is actually an effect in the voice which I'd describe as "too heavy" rather than light, (although a lot of people would associate it with light music, it's not. It can get so heavy that it becomes intrusive). In fact, Indian film music today hardly ever uses it. On the veena and the violin, vibratos are lighter and are not nearly as intrusive.

The point where I'd draw the line is where the gamaka is so stripped, I feel the raga's identity is beginning to fall off.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by Ranganayaki »

sureshvv wrote: 13 Sep 2017, 20:21
Can someone point me to where I can hear these? Sounds like an oxymoron.
I see that this was not answered: I don't think it's an oxymoron. I don't think brighas have anything to do with gamakas. Brighas are (often multiple) minute (very very short-lasting) notes that occur as embellishments in the midst of the normal-length notes of the kritis. I'm sorry to be unable to give a better explanation. If you listen for Brighas in a gnb video on youtube and then slow it down at one of the brighas, you can hear all the beautiful minute swaras he flawlessly adds lengthened, and it has nothing to do with gamaka. The notes in a brigha all belong to the raga being performed.

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: 17 Oct 2017, 11:18 The point where I'd draw the line is where the gamaka is so stripped, I feel the raga's identity is beginning to fall off.
The point where I draw the line is when syllable awareness is lost and when too much beat hugging takes place.

There is more Carnatic in this - with no Gamaka possibility whatsoever:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCIMwoO-Jw8

than in this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtgTIavxZdc - where beat hugging takes place. It is however folkish - the way songs are sung to a Chenda accompaniment.


I see this issue with Sri Ravikiran's compositions ( deliberate?) and Sri Sriramkumar's as well!

Looks like Vadivelu took the violin, but not the rhythmic sense from Thanjavur!

Why would Dr BMK not inspired to sing this in his mega recitals in Mylapore. He comes back to nagumOmu - yeah that light inauthentic Abheri!

arasi
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by arasi »

As a child, the first instance when I was aware of a brighA was when GNB sang in sonnadai seidiDa sAhasamA, kaNNaneninum muRai kaDandiDa''lA.....''mO?

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote: 17 Oct 2017, 19:31 I see this issue with Sri Ravikiran's compositions ( deliberate?) and Sri Sriramkumar's as well!
And this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K790iX3c_O8 is what I would consider Proto-carnatic music!! Things like this gave us the dvitiyAkshara prAsa as well..

bala747
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by bala747 »

vijay.siddharth wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 08:33 Lately, I have been listening to a lot of BMK and Somu, and I have found that the amount of 'vishayam' in their music is exceedingly high; literally, I can learn so much from listening to their concerts, be it presentation, singing alapana/neraval, kanakku for swarams, and of course, songs too.

However, there are few people who equate BMK and Somu to the likes of Brinda-Mukta, or MD Ramanathan, or KV Narayanaswamy, and I have heard them call the former set 'light musicians'. I have even heard people call Aruna Sayeeram 'Pombala Somu' (female Somu), which I don't get, as, according to me, the manodharmam quotient of Somu is higher than that of Smt. Sayeeram.

Why is this so? Is it because they partook in movies or sung devotional numbers? Why is Somu and BMK not considered to be equal to B-M or MDR?
Anyone who calls Aruna Sayeeram "pombala Somu" needs not be taken seriously as a human being, much less anyone with even a passing knowledge of music.

Somu was a genius nonpareil. Yes, he sang popular tamizh pieces in his concerts, and why shouldn\t he? Anyone who has even heard his HMV record of Guruleka Ituvanti would attest to the greatness of his music. His Bhairavi and Thodi are a notch above anything even Ariyakudi could muster. Had he been a brahmin, he would have been seen at the same level as a GNB or SSI. I am not indulging in idle praise.


Hell, have a listen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou4qV5ATTnU
This was late-Somu, with a very poor voice, and was probably the shortest, the worst thodi he has ever sung.

Then go and listen to the most elaborate, best rendered version of Thodi of Aruna Sayiram, then take a knife and cut out the tongue of the next person who dares say she is a "pombala Somu". (Incidentally she chewed on and spat out Thodi for 15 minutes here in Singapore in the mid-2000s, and followed it up with Thamathamen. I started to plead to the Lord to hurry up as well, to get her to stop).

I would sooner call KVN a light musician than Somu. KVN sang superficial, easily attempted ragas, had limited creativity, wasn't particularly impressive, but had the following of the usual concert-goer with passable knowledge of carnatic music. Somu had something for the musicially accomplished, and the complete layman (can you imagine KVN or DKJ trying to sing Marudamalai mamaniye murugaiyya? Or attempting a Thodi with a tenth of the grandeur of Somu's?)

And rakti ragas? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM6fW0zfL1c Can anyone seriously tell me KVN conveyed raga bhava better?

But I have to disagree somewhat about BMK. BMK's earlier concerts were brilliant exercises in creativity, but later years it turned into shouting at various octaves. He went too much into ragas to the point where it became an utter mess. A raga is like a beautiful body. There is no beauty in tearing it apart to show off its insides. That's pretty much what BMK did to most ragas later in life, and having run the gamut of ragas to eviscerate, decided to create a few of his own.

His compositions were nothing special, the lyrics not particularly noteworthy, but the raga amaippu was top-notch. He was a brilliant composer of thillanas.

His tala system though is quite fascinating, and definitely something that future musicians should add to their repertoire.

And yes, BMK and Somu (and Musiri) do have something in common with MDR and Brinda/Mukta (disagree about KVN who to me was the Santhanam of the 70s, only less so). They conveyed gnanam to their audience. The rest sang ragas.

SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

By all means disagree with Aruna Sairam, I believe certain expressions, which could be non-serious when heard, become far too serious when put into the written word (cut the tongue?). I mean I could go on and dissect everything I don't like about everybody or even about CM in general, and I have a right to, but I'd not want my intentions be interpreted as mala fide :mrgreen:

We also have our reservations about hearing mAdum mEkkum kaNNE and the kAlinga nartana tillAnA in each and every concert and etc -- it is so overdone now it has gone into parody territory and you can't help it -- after you've heard it for the hundredth time, jokes about the "cowherdess" and the "snake song" are IMHO the only way to have a light moment out of it (the alternative being "AAARGH!").

For me, I also wonder why the audience gets so locked into demanding the same 1-2 lighter numbers from their favourite musicians. Even playback singers don't have to face that problem. It reminds me of how Jascha Heifetz's Hora staccato (a signature encore showing his bow control) got so popular he HAD to play it in at every concert wherever he went. After the 70th or so he started calling it "The Horrible Staccato!" You let the audience have their way, this is what they'll do.

Now Aruna, she likes to hammer the intensity by attacking every phrase and raising it to a crescendo before releasing it in a long kaarvai -- she does this in her kalpanaswaras as well as in her abhangs. My biggest gripe with AS is the amount of strain she puts on her voice.

And that's also my number 1 issue with Somu (although I understand he wouldn't be Somu without it). That Thodi clip of his was the result of all those years of singing like a man possessed day after day, but it doesn't detract from his achievements.

I've got issues with everyone and everything too, with special mention of the mediocrity of my own singing and playing. But I am not fond of turning this into an indulgence, as I fear my mind might permanently tune itself into a negative state in the long run. I'd rather see the good. :mrgreen:

I like it that Somu sang a lot of thamizh numbers. CM needs a bit more of that actually. I admit that as a music student and rasika I have been in this business all these years and only now have some idea of what many compositions outside my mother tongue mean, and even in Tamil my elementary grasp of it means my ability to intuitively appreciate many compositions is severely handicapped.

PS : You're also from Singapore I see... :twisted:

kvchellappa
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by kvchellappa »

A great lesson:
"I've got issues with everyone and everything too, with special mention of the mediocrity of my own singing and playing. But I am not fond of turning this into an indulgence, as I fear my mind might permanently tune itself into a negative state in the long run. I'd rather see the good."

arasi
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by arasi »

Srinath,
Undoubtedly! You are the right mix of a healthy example of a rasikA. Intellectual keenness is an asset (how many with that gift we have at Rasikas.org!). However, tuning the mind into a negative state by harping on issues can be an indulgence. The result? A damper for musicians and fellow rasikAs alike...The fine art is sent to the surgery table once too often. Towards cure? I doubt it. The arts need appreciation for whatever components that please us--and analysis too, for a better understanding of it. Meanwhile, artistic expressions and appreciation of the fine arts of it should go on unimpeded. We cannot pretend to be the kings who indulged in 'produce that piece of poetry I 'order' this moment, pronto! If not, off with your head!' For a moment, I am with TMK for what he 'says' he believes in. Look at the material world--something which belonged to the elite is no more theirs alone--in buying a fancy car, jewelry or fine saris. All who have the money are able to do the same today. So be it with CM in drawing new listeners. That's how arts (as brands) flourish. The more the number of consumers of music, the merrier. Meanwhile, the artistes don't need to compromise by making all their fare jana ranjakam (people pleasing). Let music happen naturally and audience come to taste it on their own will to get the exposure and become keen rasikAs--all a natural progression--bless the march of technology too which aids us in this...

rshankar
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by rshankar »

SrinathK wrote: 19 Oct 2017, 18:30It reminds me of how Jascha Heifetz's Hora staccato (a signature encore showing his bow control) got so popular he HAD to play it in at every concert wherever he went. After the 70th or so he started calling it "The Horrible Staccato!" You let the audience have their way, this is what they'll do.
Didn't something similar happen with Sri Chittibabu and his 'kuyil pATTu' as well?

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

rshankar wrote: 20 Oct 2017, 00:18 Didn't something similar happen with Sri Chittibabu and his 'kuyil pATTu' as well?
Confirm that one! I have heard that not just from Chitti himself, but also others who are his students ( or followers - my memory is vague), in the years where they possibly could not bring him as a child in tyagaraja utsavam! They all pause to do a cuckcoo with a string!

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: 19 Oct 2017, 18:30 For me, I also wonder why the audience gets so locked into demanding the same 1-2 lighter numbers from their favourite musicians.
Case Study. A Baby shower - Seemantham. Yours truly finished singing SrI mAtrubhUtam - appropriate song you would think?. The father's father (father-in-law) said it was good, but then asked, would I be considerate to people and sing pIlu or Bhimplas or Hindolam or Mohanam!

He actually was meeting all of them for first time, diverse in terms of where they were placed - some grown up U.S.A and married with Indian born and brought-ups, some in the U.S since 70s - but this man with no compunction carries all his notions of music all the way from West Mambalam and speaks for all of them!

If you want a cause for this state of affairs - there may be many - but I will state only my biased opinion: People have been sold this idea that they can listen (consume) to what they like? ( ooooh Am I from a diff. planet ? :twisted: <- :lol: ) The modern consumerist society - and this started way back with popular music.

Instead the sense of sacred which says suspend your disbelief and just listen or at least let others listen - has been forgotten! :evil: (Do I sound like Steve Bannon against liberal MSMs? :twisted: ) :lol: And we now think people like me are trying to invent this sense and divine it on people - if it had been there why is it not even innately acknowledged by most people?!

And then there is this devotional music. If music is itself divine ( Omkara is self referential - does not refer to anything else - something I heard in a talk - it is not same as Amen or Amin!) what is this devotional music?

We are in a pathetic state - that each one of the diverse traditions of India - today we can only understand using nEti vicAram against faiths outside the country! We cannot even compare one against the other!

Sri Sankaran Namboodiri comes to a temple concert in Dallas , does one Carnatic number , stops his accompanists and does one karaoke, alternating through out the concert in between declaring to his largely Keralite audience that Carnatic music continuously will put them off and so he is doing this. He already gave up on the Audience ( Game lost!!).

Sub Main: Bilahari - smara sada mAnasa! Main : tOdi - tAyE yaSOda! So that is supposedly professional Carnatic music that paid his airline bill and/or honorarium!

@Thenpanan in other threads where Sankaran Namboodiri's voice was discussed: He was swallowing the mike. But phenomenal voice. That we would put such a prodigy in such a state - we can only blame ourselves - it is a shame - not for him - but for all of us!!! Guruvayoorappa!!
Last edited by shankarank on 20 Oct 2017, 20:23, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

bala747 wrote: 19 Oct 2017, 09:39 Anyone who calls Aruna Sayeeram "pombala Somu" needs not be taken seriously
So I am going to call Abhishek Raghuram - a BrahmaNa sOmu. Who the hell is Abhishek? What you are going to slit my throat now? :lol:

Figuratively that works! Abhishek is the brahminized version of Somu - no where near the isai veLLalar kaNIr voice - all reduced to a thin Brahman voice.

Only thing is he did not suffer the self esteem issues Somu might have ( all this humility stuff from Guru, And general caste related stuff.., ) - so he is this nifty Iyer Boy - a palghat version of Somu - who is able to express more calculative brilliance - not that Somu was not - but then Somu had to sing with Bhava, and all this Bhakti and humility all demands of his era ) - which has all changed now with what more artistic liberalized freedoms!

But he is bRahman - so even in his wayward landings has some Sashtraic precision - which Somu did not have the obligation to have - more folksy haphazardness - he could display - which would now come across very antique and rustic!

But Abhishek could sing more like a Super Singer appealing to millennials. He is also this Palghat/Thanjavur/Mylapore version of BMK - does not much croon - but can summon that touch!

But then he is only a Brahman - so he cannot really produce true music anyways! Only lakshana music!

take a listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_cLu9dYZWA

The percussionists also - what a Brahmanical precision - but lack the artistry/sound of the pillai vaLs! But still there is some excellence at least - that is undeniable - that in spite of being ignored by rasikas - they still somehow learn and pratice!

Now we have moved beyond just rAgas as music - there is music in other dimensions you see! Nothing can be "sub-altern" than something like Rhythm - it is just beats man!! - like parai which will be heard till the Canteen now - it cannot be really elite - all the elites profess disdainful ignorance ( oh I am not so much knowledgeable about layam!!) - as if they have more than passing knowledge of everything else..

sigh.....

SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

@Thenpanan in other threads where Sankaran Namboodiri's voice was discussed: He was swallowing the mike. But phenomenal voice. That we would put such a prodigy in such a state - we can only blame ourselves - it is a shame - not for him - but for all of us!!! Guruvayoorappa!!
You can blame today's mics. Even if you have a powerful voice, those mics will not work until within swallowing range. I tried singing at the usual distance once -- it didn't work. Then I brought it closer, and closer and even closer, and when I got to the point where distance was a matter below the resolution of the human eye, the speakers very suddenly, started working.

Nick H
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by Nick H »

Swallow the mic and... Boom!

Literally. I think they call it the proximity effect: over-emphasises bass.

Yes. see here. Microphone Basics: What is the Proximity Effect?

I just chanced on that page via the usual search engine. Looks like it is good. Does what it says on the tin. Microphone basics!

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote: 20 Oct 2017, 09:43 And then there is this devotional music. If music is itself divine ( Omkara is self referential - does not refer to anything else - something I heard in a talk - it is not same as Amen or Amin!) what is this devotional music?
Further thoughts on that. Music has left the former space and has gone to the latter space. What we call the auditorium where the seating itself is more like the space of "Amen". Nothing wrong with that, we absorbed it. We have every right to absorb it and create something new and call it our own - because we did not ask for it. It came. Even then we should see how we amalgamate the two or also have the version of the former alive on the side!

And there are some instances where people of that space ( of "Amen") also want to adopt the ways of this land in their spaces. Anything wrong with it? But we are well within the right to critique that just to have a dialogue! We have every right to push our view of things as well!

See : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA_VQdUMdeY

prashant
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by prashant »

bala747 wrote: 19 Oct 2017, 09:39 KVN sang superficial, easily attempted ragas, had limited creativity, wasn't particularly impressive, but had the following of the usual concert-goer with passable knowledge of carnatic music. Somu had something for the musicially accomplished, and the complete layman (can you imagine KVN or DKJ trying to sing Marudamalai mamaniye murugaiyya? Or attempting a Thodi with a tenth of the grandeur of Somu's?)
When in doubt, Mr. T always has the answer. Just replace "Balboa" with "bala747".

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sankark
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by sankark »

bala747 wrote: 19 Oct 2017, 09:39
vijay.siddharth wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 08:33 And rakti ragas? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM6fW0zfL1c Can anyone seriously tell me KVN conveyed raga bhava better?
Thanks sooooo much for that nAttaikurinji. The opening itself is agmark NK...

bala747
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by bala747 »

prashant wrote: 21 Oct 2017, 22:32
bala747 wrote: 19 Oct 2017, 09:39 KVN sang superficial, easily attempted ragas, had limited creativity, wasn't particularly impressive, but had the following of the usual concert-goer with passable knowledge of carnatic music. Somu had something for the musicially accomplished, and the complete layman (can you imagine KVN or DKJ trying to sing Marudamalai mamaniye murugaiyya? Or attempting a Thodi with a tenth of the grandeur of Somu's?)
When in doubt, Mr. T always has the answer. Just replace "Balboa" with "bala747".

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Sticks and stones.

I understand it's a matter of opinion. I wasn't particularly looking down on KVN (or DKJ) as a musician per se (or at least didn't mean to convey that impression). But when compared to the likes to Somu, MDR, etc he was a distant also-ran, and way overrated. It is like comparing Alan Border to Don Bradman.

bala747
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by bala747 »

But then he is only a Brahman - so he cannot really produce true music anyways! Only lakshana music!

I don't know why you mention the Brahmin part of it, like it has anything to do with anything.

take a listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_cLu9dYZWA

You are joking surely! You consider this good?! It is the auditory equivalent of a car-crash. Mispronounced words, overuse of brighas, no sense of sahitya-bhava, barely any ragabhava to speak of (though to be fair the very last line at 42:10 was good). Tell this idiot to back and learn the words of the krithi first, and sing it properly before trying out his audio-histrionics.

And THEN go slit your throat.

The percussionists also - what a Brahmanical precision - but lack the artistry/sound of the pillai vaLs! But still there is some excellence at least - that is undeniable - that in spite of being ignored by rasikas - they still somehow learn and pratice!

The percussion was horrible. Empty vessels being banged hard and fast at varying rates with no regard to the actual mood, rhythm or feel of the composition. As MVI used to say, they played one long thaniavarthanam from start to finish. He could be singing baa baa black sheep for all it mattered to those morons (and he would have messed the words of that up too). சாணிதட்டறவா எப்போதான் மிருதங்க வித்வான் ஆனாளோ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do4DDwld29A
or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xajE2WJqJ4g

Fairly certain everyone there is a brahmin, though there might be a Pillai on the mridangam for GNB. I hope that doesn't offend your sensibilities too much.

prashant
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by prashant »

bala747 wrote: 23 Oct 2017, 12:47
Sticks and stones.

I understand it's a matter of opinion. I wasn't particularly looking down on KVN (or DKJ) as a musician per se (or at least didn't mean to convey that impression). But when compared to the likes to Somu, MDR, etc he was a distant also-ran, and way overrated. It is like comparing Alan Border to Don Bradman.
You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect it, even though I consider it absolute BS. Peace.

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