Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

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vijay.siddharth
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Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by vijay.siddharth »

Lately, I have been listening to a lot of BMK and Somu, and I have found that the amount of 'vishayam' in their music is exceedingly high; literally, I can learn so much from listening to their concerts, be it presentation, singing alapana/neraval, kanakku for swarams, and of course, songs too.

However, there are few people who equate BMK and Somu to the likes of Brinda-Mukta, or MD Ramanathan, or KV Narayanaswamy, and I have heard them call the former set 'light musicians'. I have even heard people call Aruna Sayeeram 'Pombala Somu' (female Somu), which I don't get, as, according to me, the manodharmam quotient of Somu is higher than that of Smt. Sayeeram.

Why is this so? Is it because they partook in movies or sung devotional numbers? Why is Somu and BMK not considered to be equal to B-M or MDR?

varsha
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by varsha »

there are few people who equate
they are in a minority.Feel sad for them .
Not many would dare talk to BMK like this , I presume.
Somu had many obstacles which are not worth revisiting in our more-mature times.
If there is a value judgement index by the way accompanists choose to ( or not to ) accompany , I dont see any lightness in their music.
Having said this BMK was avant garde to the point of becoming uncomfortable to traditionalists.
Somu belonged to a school that takes some effort to appreciate / like .
And was given to boisterous tendencies in phrasing - deeply seated in devotional fervour and crowd pulling
But light ? No way .

It is a different issue if MDR had operated from a different state . These same few people would have consigned him to the sidelines.
Even mainstream Chennai failed to recognise his worth.
Internet , mp3 etc is proving to be a big differentiator.
Between cliched singers and ones with great momentary inspiration that goes by the name manodharma.
Each new concert of MDR , BMK Somu makes ones ears prick up.
Cant say the same for other serious greats.

Sachi_R
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by Sachi_R »

Good discussion.
BMK - I see a resemblance to his singing in some other Andhra musicians like Nookala, Dr Pinakapani and Nedunuri. Even RK Srikantan fits this type according to me. I feel this is a voice projection technique of singing.

Please allow me to develop a generic model. This applies to Carnatic music male and female vocalists. It does not cover manodharma.

X Axis - Full Voice throw without constraint
Y Axis - Frequent acceleration and deceleraton in delivery of phrases, creating an effect of frenzy
Z Axis - Heavy gamakas, with almost a kind of accent (imagine the dialogue delivery of character actors vs. protagonists. The protagonist speaks in simple, straight, unaccented tones, whereas character actors add their trademark/colloquial accents)

BMK, Ariyakudi, MMI, RK Srikantan sing with high X axis values. They eschew Y, and Ariyakudi and MMI had occasional mid Z values.
Somu is high Y axis, high Z axis, and medium X axis.
Aruna is high on Z axis and Y axis and medium X axis. On occasion high X axis (depends on song).

Semmangudi is high Z and high Y, low X.
Same with Sanjay. Sometimes Sanjay has high X.
MMI was high X, low Y, medium Z.
GNB was medium X, medium Y, medium Z.
TMK is high X, low Y, high Z.
Abhishek is high X, high Y, low Z.

I can model a 3D plot, if you like!

Does it make sense?

I also mentioned the other day that Aruna Sayeeram sounds quite a bit like a male Somu.

I do believe that this model does not take into account manodharma and body language, which are really big factors for our real world categorisation. But for the purpose of light vs. heavy, I think this will do.

Finally, what about voice timbre? Big factor.

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by vijay.siddharth »

@Sachi_R:

Let me create a 3D plot, with 'high' = 20, 'medium' = 1, and 'low' = 0.1, and post the results on the forum.

But is Somu really mid-X? I felt his renditions of some songs have a high X value too. Will post recording.

However, if Somu and Semmangudi have close musical co-ordinate values, then why is the former considered to be 'devotional' and the latter 'classical'?

rajeshnat
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by rajeshnat »

I am not a fan of BMK , excepting his early years which interested me , most of his concerts in his second half of his career are all very light. His approach be it krithi or raga alapana always does not intensely map to a raga devatha , most of the time it is suggestive . His few compositions especially thillana when sung by non BMK school students are wonderful.

Somu with his high imagination , emote and most importantly flashes of brilliance in his endurance style always interest me. Also his on stage improvisations of liberally adding lot of phrases to krithi viruththam etc do add an extra emote to his music.

Sachi_R
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by Sachi_R »

@Vijay,
Somu was passionate and "raw" and appeared always eager to engage the audience (a sign of a devotional singer).
Semmangudi always appeared to me very creative in a rehearsed way. The very fact Semmangudi has spawned such a large "bani" shows he had a replicable method.
I have heard Somu from mid-60s. He was a rage on the stage. Parvathi Blog has some superb concerts of his.

Please do share any recordings, but I have heard both of them in many concerts in person. We are dealing with two mahavidwans.

A plot etc. will be a nice way to discuss the subject.

The star points will oscillate and move around a bit based on occasion, song, and audience. For me, music is never totally definable and predictable. That is why a recording is for me a very poor substitute for listening to live music in person. We have of course erected a huge barrier through mike amplification but I feel we can still somehow transcend the barrier (both singer and listener), by a total focus on communication, in a live concert.

Sachi_R
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by Sachi_R »

Rajesh, I can relate to what you say. I have written this before, music came easily to BMK and therefore I feel for him, music was always an ego trip.

varsha
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by varsha »

His few compositions especially thillana when sung by non BMK school students are wonderful.
157 compositions in my books
When sung by bmk are worth our attention

varsha
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by varsha »

Image

a more suitable template , that I use

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by vijay.siddharth »

rajeshnat wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 10:31 I always does not intensely map to a raga devatha
I completely disagree. I listened to an RTP of his in Rishabhapriya - and it was where Rishabhapriya came off as a distinct ragam, instead of a combination of kalyani and shanmukhapriya.

Sachi_R
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by Sachi_R »

Image

Varsha, I prefer this 😀

varsha
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by varsha »

His approach be it krithi or raga alapana always does not intensely map to a raga devatha , most of the time it is suggestive
Suggestions of fraternising with the devathas , singing dancing with them :roll: :D
https://www.mediafire.com/file/28f7cjlf ... rAmdAs.mp3

sureshvv
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by sureshvv »

Somewhere along the line BMK started singing primarily his compositions & that did not serve him well as far as the musician went.

SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

vijay.siddharth wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 12:59
rajeshnat wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 10:31 I always does not intensely map to a raga devatha
I completely disagree. I listened to an RTP of his in Rishabhapriya - and it was where Rishabhapriya came off as a distinct ragam, instead of a combination of kalyani and shanmukhapriya.
BMK is an extraordinary musician and composer, master of many instruments, a genius nonpareil. If he wants to, he can take his music to such extraordinary heights you will leave in disbelief as to what a man and his music are capable of.

But then, he also does a few 'naughty things'. I remember when he came and performed at IITM, his voice giving no hint that he was anywhere near his age. As an example, he took Kalyani for main and sang the whole main number from alapana to swaras with zero gamakas, zero. His rubatos in swara singing (actually they were all over the place in every aspect) were so extreme the god of time would have suffered a heart attack! There were whole passages where it seemed he spoke the lyrics more than he sang them and when it was not that, it was all about vocal special effects. He sometimes paused on a single note, then just stayed silent for a random interval, then sang a phrase, and then did more 'random stuff'. Suddenly he went underground, suddenly there he was soaring skyward...

He concluded with his kathana kuthuhalam thillana which was all 'special effects' and ended it with the flavour of an anthem tune... at which point I had to conclude that "the mischief mode of child Krishna" had played enough for the day. The mischief of a child, that's exactly what it is. I mean no one, no one can totally dissolve the structure of CM into an unrecognizable combo of sound and silence like BMK can.

Then another day, I heard the same thillana being sung the 'normal' way by some singer in a dance performance. I couldn't believe just how good the piece was. Yes, BMK deviates that much I have to use the word 'normal'.

After a while, it gets exhausting, there is no way you can follow him. It's equal parts chaos and equal parts hilarity. He took a creation of realism (like that of the genius artist Shilpi) and turned it into a piece of modern art.... :mrgreen: and then went further. At the end of the day, you had a canvas and some colours.

He takes this :
http://www.indian-heritage.org/painting ... lpi18b.jpg

and makes it into THIS on certain days :
http://modern-art.mobi/wp-content/uploa ... ings-1.jpg

Believe me, he is capable of painting both if he wanted...

I mean, just listen to this (it's just a sample) :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca7_QB16cio :lol: :lol: :lol: Now listen to that for a whole concert.

MDR is a meandering river yes, but you come to BMK thinking he's going to build the Empire state building (which he is well and truly capable of doing) and at the end you'll get some bunches of scattered lego blocks.

Every musician has a naughty child in him, but it is little Krishna who is the undisputed emperor of naughtiness.... One Krishna did speak about the need to go beyond structures, but it is the other Krishna who really took it to the point where you realize that you need something resembling a house to live in and that a pile of bricks can't do that.
Last edited by SrinathK on 12 Sep 2017, 20:03, edited 5 times in total.

kvchellappa
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by kvchellappa »

Srinath gives muscle to the skeleton put out by Rajeshnat!

Sachi_R
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by Sachi_R »

Srinath,
I agree with you.
Every time I sit and listen to BMK, I wonder what was his motive to sing like he did. When you watch the videos you can see he was pretty much decided on having a good time, and he was so sure he would produce great music that if the audience didn't catch on, it was their problem.
But really, he always left me with a feeling he shortchanged listeners by this approach. But I still can't dismiss him, he is just so damn great!

As a relief, there are so many concerts of his being scrubbed up and reposted so well by Mr. Sreenivasa Murthy. I particularly like the 1978 Sangeetha Kalanidhi concert. Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZFDyVe ... pAt-KLeEGp

SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

Sachi_R wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 19:51 Srinath,
I agree with you.
Every time I sit and listen to BMK, I wonder what was his motive to sing like he did. When you watch the videos you can see he was pretty much decided on having a good time, and he was so sure he would produce great music that if the audience didn't catch on, it was their problem.
But really, he always left me with a feeling he shortchanged listeners by this approach. But I still can't dismiss him, he is just so damn great!

As a relief, there are so many concerts of his being scrubbed up and reposted so well by Mr. Sreenivasa Murthy. I particularly like the 1978 Sangeetha Kalanidhi concert. Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZFDyVe ... pAt-KLeEGp
It was mischief, that's it. See a 5 year old, they'll do this all the time, funny stuff.

However I believe that music (or painting or sculpture) shines best either when totally formless (pure shruti or silence) or when it is beautifully formed. It really freshens up your energy, takes it high. Incredibly distorted semi-forms create a very distressing disturbance in the receding energy they project, which wears me out. It's almost painful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNI07egoefc

Now that you mention the 1978 concert, I'm listening to it. His own composition in kApi is beautiful.

BMK's style is the old school, somewhat gamaka minimalist era (of which MMI was the most famous). Only he and Yesudas AFAIK sing those plain note brighas.

Here's a recording of BMK's guru Parupalli Ramakrishnayya Pantulu :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE-aEBkrr1Y
Last edited by SrinathK on 12 Sep 2017, 20:31, edited 2 times in total.

hnbhagavan
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by hnbhagavan »

I agree with what is being said.But these concerts rose to great heights only with extra ordinary accompanists in their time.Even in case of Sri BMK,his concert levels were in better territory only when he had good accompanists.

arasi
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by arasi »

Srinath,
Shilpi said it all! How he brought stone into paint (for those of you who want to see more of his paintings, Pasupathy has a treasure trove in the Literature forum (Nostalgia thread).

Thanks for your posts. VishamakkArak kaNNan bAla em KrishnA was! A tIrAda viLaiyATTup piLLai though he was, when he was serious,meant business, it was bliss (and still is).How could these many gifts converge in one person, we can't stop wondering...

Music
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by Music »

Nice 3D analysis and discussion!

I think an artist sounds heavy when there are 2 things in the music:
1. There is a lot of force used in executing kampita gamakas and
2. More importantly when there is a lot of accenting to express the laya underlying the music.

Examples of abundant accenting to express laya - Semmamgufi, DKJ, DKP, MS
Examples of relatively less accenting of laya - BMK, Voleti
Examples of moderate accenting to express laya - TMK, Malladi Bros

I am talking about overall presentation and not about manodharma.

End of the day music is about aesthetics. Its about nadam and laya. Its about a balance in expressing the two. Over emphasis of laya cuts the flow of nadam. Too less of an emphasis of laya makes it meditative or sleep inducing or boring - whichever way you look at it. Its artistic sensibility that balances the two. Each person in the audience too has a taste for a certain balance in the two. That is why some enjoy the BMK style while some enjoy Semmangudi style.

hnbhagavan
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by hnbhagavan »

If BMK was good enough for the Sangeetha Kalanidhi award of Music Academy in 1978,It is a great mystery as to why M D Ramanathan was not at all considered.By 1978 MD Ramanathan was already established and used to enjoy regular performance slots in Music Academy.

sankark
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by sankark »

hnbhagavan wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 22:03 If BMK was good enough for the Sangeetha Kalanidhi award of Music Academy in 1978,It is a great mystery as to why M D Ramanathan was not at all considered.By 1978 MD Ramanathan was already established and used to enjoy regular performance slots in Music Academy.
Oh. MDR didn't get it, and the list includes Voleti, Tanjore SKR, Somu, TNR, too. Nothing much to be done about it now. So, let the matter rest in its peaceful slumber for eternity.

narayara000
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by narayara000 »

SrinathK wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 20:18 Only he and Yesudas AFAIK sing those plain note brighas.

Something about these "plain note brighas" turns me off, it feels kind of unnatural or something...Even though they are geniuses and amazing musicians, I can't listen to BMK or Yesudas without feeling weirded out...

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by vijay.siddharth »

Let me make a very controversial statement - listening to both B-M's rendition of Aligithe (Huseni) and Balamurali's rendition of Aligithe, I feel the latter beats the former hands down. I feel, being a Telugu person (from the Godavari delta, no less), BMK was able to convey the emotion of the padam better than B-M, who focussed more on the musical aspects of the composition.

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by vijay.siddharth »

sankark wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 22:11 Oh. MDR didn't get it, and the list includes Voleti, Tanjore SKR, Somu, TNR, too. Nothing much to be done about it now. So, let the matter rest in its peaceful slumber for eternity.
... T K Rangachari, Kanjeera Harishankar, Radha Jayalakshmi... The list is infinite. Far too many candidates, far few awards, so demand exceeds supply.

I feel S Kalyanaraman would've got it if he was alive for a longer period of time. Somu if he was more 'mainstream' (both musically and otherwise). Academy felt TNR and Mali (being drinkers of alcohol) would bring shame to the award if they were drunk, while other awardees have done the same amount of disservice to the award without inebriation.

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by vijay.siddharth »

Music wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 21:00 Examples of relatively less accenting of laya - BMK, Voleti
I feel both BMK and Voleti are very laya heavy, but they don't flaunt it with the bravado TN Seshagopalan does or Sanjay sometimes. Voleti especially would engage in these long winding sangathis during swaraprastahram where he would summarise what he was going to sing before singing it, and landed exactly on samam without effort. BMK's thillanas (like the Garudadhwani thillana) are clear expressions of his laya genius in this domain, as was his swaraprastharam.

kvchellappa
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by kvchellappa »

I feel Voleti is different from BMK.

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by vijay.siddharth »

In vocalisation and style, yes. But I feel they both have an equally strong grasp over laya vishayams.

Music
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by Music »

I have to clarify what I mentioned about laya. BMK, Voleti etc., every artist has a deep sense of laya, there is no doubt about it. One cannot be even an artist without having laya. Also, regardless of artist, compositions by themselves have have so much laya built within them. By laya, I am pointing to the pulse inherent in a song....I don't mean kanakku. Some styles of singing don't accent the laya heavily. They sing it very smoothly, and do not explicitly vocalize the pulse of the song. Not sure if I explained this well, will see if can give an audio example.

sureshvv
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by sureshvv »

narayara000 wrote: 13 Sep 2017, 07:36
SrinathK wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 20:18 Only he and Yesudas AFAIK sing those plain note brighas.

Something about these "plain note brighas" turns me off, it feels kind of unnatural or something...
Can someone point me to where I can hear these? Sounds like an oxymoron.

SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

vijay.siddharth wrote: 13 Sep 2017, 17:56 Let me make a very controversial statement - listening to both B-M's rendition of Aligithe (Huseni) and Balamurali's rendition of Aligithe, I feel the latter beats the former hands down. I feel, being a Telugu person (from the Godavari delta, no less), BMK was able to convey the emotion of the padam better than B-M, who focussed more on the musical aspects of the composition.
You might be referring to this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvqmWjFXpJ4 - Now that's what I meant when I said BMK can also sing like THIS. When he sings without all that gimmickry, his emotional impact is at another level.

Also, his telugu pronunciation is terrific, being his native language.

And if you have a recording of B-M's aligite, please send it. In the Dhannamal legacy thread in the musicians' section, I put a list of their padams and javalis up which I had dredged out of the internet - I had an idea to use that thread for sharing those. If you have some others apart from those, do send them to me.

varsha
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by varsha »

Now that we have a critical mass of views , I will attempt to consolidate my opinions

1.It is better to assess both Somu and BMK individually rather than using the template of lightness as a perception by rasikas
2.Somu , we can revisit.
Two decades ago , in this very forum , Somus home, was the first artist we picked , to pay a visit . Visiting the home of a long forgotten hero .Sadly those pages of rasikas are lost.Maybe we can recapitulate , but the difference when compared to BMK is very stark .I will attempt BMK here.
3.The pluses of BMK are not debatable.
Virtuosity , Technical brilliance,ability to raise goosebumps ( the only time I experienced goose bumps in a concert hall was in Sastri Hall as he sang srI nArasimha...) , range of areas of expertise , mastery over language and diction and so on.
4.Where he lost out was , in my opinion
a) Finding his , and justifying the , delicate balance between conservative prudery and value systems of a new age explorer.Keepin in mind that ours is an age where the romance of a Columbus , Neil Armstrong and an Edmund Hillary is difficult to assimilate without moving ourselves into those time frames . something TRS epitomised.
b) His cardinal error in declaring in the 80s, that he was bigger than the system . My music is not Carnatic Music.It is more .It is murali music. He declared .Got a feeling that he thought he was a God.Though none of us know how God speaks.
c) His presence on the carnatic firmament was like a runner distancing himself from other runners .On a track of his own.
d) A buoyed up ego that went on trips like largest number of albums cut ….
e) Needless straying into political , legal zones .
f) Too much in love with himself to see himself a link in a long chain .

So How does he end up in my books ?
1.Only few ragas where he has left a haunting legacy for ages in terms of exploring the scale –
2.Many ragas untouched in the manner of test match playing.
3.1965 as the laxman rekha after which his concerts failed to give me a feeling of the ethereal
4.Closing my eyes , the first image that explodes on my consciousness is of an impish clownish vidwan.And he deliberately chose that !!!
5.Programms – some short some long – which are horribly jarring to my ears in the domain of aesthetics.Some could be tortuous
6.Somebody who had tried writing War and Peace and had lost the plot midway.
7.One who showed me visions of divinity through E thiruga nanu , dudukoogala , nambide ninna nada devatheye , varnams , charukesis , abhogi-valaji gunnybag races, astapadis,sunada-, hamsa vinodinis ,Grahabheda dalliances with Lalgudi .
8.And I don’t complain . My world would still be poorer without him.

https://archive.org/details/Bmk-eethiru ... RAmdAs_bmk
I wish ALL of his music was like this .Anyway
Last edited by varsha on 14 Sep 2017, 09:55, edited 1 time in total.

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by vijay.siddharth »

SrinathK wrote: 13 Sep 2017, 23:21 And if you have a recording of B-M's aligite, please send it. In the Dhannamal legacy thread in the musicians' section, I put a list of their padams and javalis up which I had dredged out of the internet - I had an idea to use that thread for sharing those. If you have some others apart from those, do send them to me.
I vaguely remember listening to a recording a couple years ago in a CD - will try to track this down


SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

Thank you so much!

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: 12 Sep 2017, 19:17 I mean, just listen to this (it's just a sample) :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca7_QB16cio Now listen to that for a whole concert.
More samples - this time with able senior on one side. https://youtu.be/S1k8V-eEMYI?t=440 Shows you that Krishna ( I mean BMK) and Cauvery can never meet :lol: - the texture of flow of laya viSranti is different!. TKM trying to be a tabla artist :lol: :lol:

We have to get off this notion passed down by pedagogy that melody alone is music!

And in national media everywhere , people still allowed this notion that everything is impromptu for Carnatic music - when it is backed by a grand architecture : Sanskriti (the laya viSranti a significant portion of that) - the much hated word which conjures up visions of panchakacham , kuDumi and anga vastram - that has to be sidelined for national progress!

https://youtu.be/4EsaQybktzM?t=883
Last edited by shankarank on 18 Sep 2017, 00:49, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

And Sir it is not just the sadas , that dealt a blow to percussionists in 1927 - https://youtu.be/4EsaQybktzM?t=1350 . It also eventually happened to Tabla artists as well. They were made Caddies!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/musi ... ppies.html
He could be a man of baffling contradictions, whose outward appearance of humility and spirituality could disguise a certain hauteur. Reflecting fondly on his faithful and long-serving tabla-player, Alla Rakha, who accompanied him for 27 years, Shankar once observed that he was finally obliged to dispense with his services; not because Rakha was “rather fond of a drink or two”, not even because of his strange obsession with Bonanza and Hawaii Five-O, but because “I needed someone younger, not only as an accompanist but to carry all my shoulder bags.”

SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

BMK can sing that same Hindolam with beautiful feeling as well : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W2lpvhzjyY
Of all the recordings I have, this one is special because this was the one that introduced me to his music.

Speaking of the "serious Carnatic" -- I have observed that there are 5 effects that give the result of "lightness" in singing

1) The fade -- where you are expected to do a kampita or jharu and you end up fading it into softness instead of going all the way to the landing note
2) The pianissimo (mellinam) - It's fine when you do it on a whole phrase, but when you do it on one particular syllable or note, it sounds light
3) The slur - instead of heavier gamakas in dhattu phrases like md gm sg ns (hindolam), the phrases are slurred with a smooth (but one-dimensional) slide joining the notes. It's an instrumental effect best demonstrated on the violin.
4) The vibrato -- Using it in any manner beyond "salt in the food" can make it look filmy, and worse, overdone. The paradox here is that the vibrato is actually a very heavy effect when rendered through the voice. On a violin or a veena it works very well, because it's naturally light and not intrusive -- you can shape the tone with it, but with the voice it has to be delicately done. Do it on a note where it's not needed and it can sound "filmy", especially when surrounded by a plethora of plain notes.
5) The way the mridangam is played - if the mridangam is played more in that simple 4/4 you hear in films (esp. Malayalam CM based film songs), it can give that effect.

GNB, MSS (more in her films), Brinda & Mukta (they sang it exactly like a fast and and narrow kampita on the veena at select notes for that gamaka, which as a matter of fact, it is) are some examples who really handled that vibrato in a classic CM fashion. Now Somu, he really cooked his vibrato to extremes, sometimes crossing into opera territory. Seerkazhi Govindarajan also used it.

ARI had a wolf-note like vibrato that came if he tried forcing his voice, it was not a controlled vibrato.

If you ask me, CM violinists could use it just a tad more, it enhances the tone of the instrument.

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

Can you enumerate the vibratos in this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5dDmqSMC_o

Are these too slow inflections to be in that list?

1) the tam in bhUtam
2) lAmbA in kuntalAmbA - how do you notate that? Is there any symbol for it in msakella staple? Trying to sing that crashes me.
3) kam in sOma sakam, kam in Sukha sanakam
4) vi in kamAdi vijaya - this one can come any number of ways if one tries it -
5) di in vAsavAdi - this one too - he is consistent twice
6) dE in vAsudEva
7) tA in rahitAnta

Or Are these just MMI specificities - like caused by the shape of his specific vocal passage?

SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

1) In the opening line, MMI uses a bit of vibrato on sree-mAtru (G,, M, D,), but in bhUtam - bhU goes like PMP and tam is MPGM which because of the gamaka on the G sounds like MPMM. So that's not a vibrato. A vibrato is oscillating on one note.

2) kun, ta lAm, bA goes like D , D N SD P with the lA = N SD . A gamaka on the N followed by a glide from S to D will do it. If you actually try singing this in swaras you will sing it as N D or S D or D D , but the gamakas within are the same.

3) the gamakas on the kam are kampitas on the D2 between D and S. Alternatively they are a NS followed by a slow slide down to D. (S)D NS (S)D

4) vi in vijaya is a simple slide from P to G with a bit of attack on the P

5) di is kampita (MP)

6) dE is also one form of slur like SD SD D -- the 1st kampita is smaller, the 2nd extended and the 3rd D is a janta. In notation, you would actually only label the phrase as D D D - 2 kampitas + 1 janta. Admittedly, these are very difficult to notate. 3 Ds, all 3 are different

7) tA in rahitAnta is - MD-DPP . MD is a slide, the next D doesn't have a janta, but the P-P is a janta. It sounded to me like MD-PMP, but after slowing it down to 0.5x, it turned out to be MD-DPP. I mean, he could have put a janta on the DD also, but he didn't. These variations in gamaka make it very difficult to notate, especially MMI, because he often combined plain noted with gamakas like this.

And these microscopic details are what differentiate various singers from each other even when they sing the same sangati. Many of these gamakas will appear only in chauka kala compositions - not in madhyamakala ones. You will not find these complexities in madhyamakala songs. There is no time to create these microscopic nuances in them. From a gamaka perspective, madhyamakala songs are easy.

Often these gamakas are so microscopic they can only be understood by hearing in person or slowing the playing down to 50% or 33%

However, getting rid of these and replacing them with simple fades and slides can turn this into "light" stuff.

kvchellappa
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by kvchellappa »

Great discussion, great to me partly because I do not understand technically, but can get a glimpse of its 'musicality'.

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

Thanks for that. I suppose the "gam" at the end of kamanIyAngam : https://youtu.be/K5dDmqSMC_o?t=122 will qualify as a vibrato then?

I was misunderstanding from the definition laid out:
a rapid, slight variation in pitch in singing or playing some musical instruments, producing a stronger or richer tone.
But in certain context , given that in CM the sense of rAgam guides the expression of phrases , any attempt at vibrato - won't draw in a phrase from the ragam?. Even in the above it comes out as something like mpmgm! - where a pulsating ma draws in p and g?!

May be a scalar type pentatonic with a plain note usage - lot of spacing from neighbors - may not draw in neighboring notes!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Excellent and mature discussion. Thanks all. Yes, Somu and BMK belong in different buckets. My relationship with the music of BMK/Jesudas is along the lines of many of you. I did not know why that was, now I have a slightly better idea.

Varsha mentioned about BMK's Abhogi. Interestingly I had the chance to listen to his huge film hit 'Thanga radam vandadu'. A focused listening of that song revealed to me how great a job he had done with that song.

varsha
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by varsha »

vk
Been missing you for a long time !!!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Varsha. Been busy. Popping in for janitorial duties and participate in great threads like this.

The problem with any discussion on BMK is, the big time BMK fans do not want to consider the nuanced position we all are taking here. I have a friend like that and any time there is something positive he encounters about BMK he will send me that and ask 'What say you now?' ;) My reply is "What can I say? that is awesome' and invariably the next turn of conversation is him asking indirectly 'Do you now take back everything you said before?' :)

SrinathK
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by SrinathK »

vasanthakokilam wrote: 22 Sep 2017, 00:58 Thanks Varsha. Been busy. Popping in for janitorial duties and participate in great threads like this.

The problem with any discussion on BMK is, the big time BMK fans do not want to consider the nuanced position we all are taking here. I have a friend like that and any time there is something positive he encounters about BMK he will send me that and ask 'What say you now?' ;) My reply is "What can I say? that is awesome' and invariably the next turn of conversation is him asking indirectly 'Do you now take back everything you said before?' :)
Vk, one can never win an argument against emotion, or even persuade it to understand any way but it's own... it is a form of existence that is as wonderful as it is dangerous :lol: :mrgreen: -- one who can master and play with it cannot be less than a siddha. :lol:

rajeshnat
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by rajeshnat »

VK
Even though the thread has questions on BMK vs Somu , all the points were only with BMK .Move this thread to BMK vidwan and vidushi thread.
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=126

Our vara prasadam in this thread or almost any thread is the musical acumenship of srinathk who gives more pointers on how I and many of us feel that way ?

varsha
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by varsha »

Even though the thread has questions on BMK vs Somu
Wrong
It is
BMK & Somu - Serious carnatic or not ?

varsha
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by varsha »

https://archive.org/details/SomuKazhugumalaiRTPTOdi

Some light music this !!! gravity defying ...Every time I play this in my home,people walk carefully , fearing a fall from the precipice.
And what a glorious sight of the horizon at the summit with a grahebhedam
And back to the rumble tumble of this everyday world.

shankarank
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Re: Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

Post by shankarank »

Whether music is Heavy or Light - no dearth of lighter moments : https://youtu.be/meH1BHPEhVc?t=228 - in that gotcha grin (the violinist didn't catch her svarams @ sAma vEda SirO ), she disgraced her center of the world - the world of modest beginnings at the SS Street Karamana - which the Finnish Indologist Asko Parpola, after collecting his hefty sum from Kalaignar, visited :


http://www.karmakerala.com/guide/agraha ... puram.html
At first, his queries drew a blank. Nobody had ever heard of such a name. But, the scholar's persistent enquiries yielded results when a resident of the S.S. Street in Karamana, remembered that it had once been called the kozhakka theruvu. This must have been the name of kuzhai kathan Street that Dr. Parpola had come in search of.

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