Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

[bala747]

Sticks and stones.

I understand it's a matter of opinion. I wasn't particularly looking down on KVN (or DKJ) as a musician per se (or at least didn't mean to convey that impression). But when compared to the likes to Somu, MDR, etc he was a distant also-ran, and way overrated. It is like comparing Alan Border to Don Bradman.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect it, even though I consider it absolute BS. Peace.

I don't respect you nor your opinion so it's all good.

[prashant]

[I don't respect you nor your opinion so it's all good.

Feeling is absolutely mutual, especially after reading some of the other passive-agreessive, bellicose junk you've posted on this forum. Enjoy.

[thenpaanan]

Swallow the mic and... Boom!

Literally. I think they call it the proximity effect: over-emphasises bass.

Yes. see here. Microphone Basics: What is the Proximity Effect?

I just chanced on that page via the usual search engine. Looks like it is good. Does what it says on the tin. Microphone basics!

I have seen people actually look for the distortion. Once when I was singing on stage, I noticed someone in the audience gesturing to me. It took me a minute to realize that the person was suggesting that I move closer to the mic. By my lights I thought I was at the right distance, about two feet, because I wanted the mic to catch the sound "off the air" and not blown down. I just stayed put but I was intrigued by why the person wanted me to move closer. One can never tell from the stage what the audience is hearing. After I went and sat down next to that person the next singer up moved the mic literally up to "kissing" distance. Now the proximity effect that you mention was very evident -- the mic was clearly distorting (to me, if you close your eyes and listen there should be no or minimal difference between the presence and absence of the mic, except for volume) but this person was very happy. He said he could finally "hear the singer". In another instance when I was singing in someone's home for navarAtri the host asked me to reduce the volume on my sruthi box (I endeavor to keep the sruthi nice and loud and sing strongly to be heard over the sruthi) so that he could "hear the words I was singing". Later on I asked someone else who was also there if they had trouble hearing the words before I turned down the sruthi and they said no.

To me such instances show that the CM audience is itself so inured to high decibel amplification that they feel something is missing if they don't hear the telltale distortion. In other instances I have seen male singers lean in especially close to the mic like a rock singer when they go to the lower register to extract the extra (fake) bass in their voice -- everyone wants to sound like MDR/Yesudas once in a while. So we are in a vicious cycle between performer and audience.

-T

[RSR]

Respected participants in this thread!.....All the vituperative comments are exposed while googling.. I am afraid, it will create a bad impression in the public mind. May I suggest that this type of heated exchange be done in the rasikas facebook rather than this forum? facebook gives option to limit the audience as desired. while this forum ( as I understand) has no such facility. (perhaps, I am wrong? yet to explore).

[kvchellappa]

At present there is only one who indulges in it with glee. Your well-meaning exhortation will be futile in that case.

[shankarank]

I see this issue with Sri Ravikiran's compositions ( deliberate?) and Sri Sriramkumar's as well!

And this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K790iX3c_O8 is what I would consider Proto-carnatic music!! Things like this gave us the dvitiyAkshara prAsa as well..

Tribute to sUlamangalam sisters ( one of whom merged with MuruganaDi recently) during the ongoing skanda ShaSTi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H73Mx5wMQCQ

The difference between that and kanda ShaSTi kavacam is proto-carnatic or carnatic music if you will.

Sri Vijay Siva sang this in the Dallas concert - all in one rAga. It will be good if some artiste replicates these rAgAs as is!

[bala747]

I would like to add S Kalyanaraman to that list!

By the way are there any other versions of the kandaranubhooti from that era? I recall hearing a really old rendition of the Kandaranubhooti but different set of ragas. My mother used to sing that one too.

[bala747]

Wasn't Pithukuli Murugadas as well, before anyone asks.

[shankarank]

I have seen people actually look for the distortion. ..the person was suggesting that I move closer to the mic. ....about two feet, because I wanted the mic to catch the sound "off the air" and not blown down. ....the next singer up moved the mic literally up to "kissing" distance. Now the proximity effect ....
-T

Case Study: Sri G. Ravikiran (TMK's student) just completed the Dallas recital last weekend. I did not venture to post a concert list as I had to leave the recital when Main piece was being sung due to personal emergencies. I guess I can still comment on the sound issues. The Mic. was positioned vertical facing almost upwards. I was trying to gesture the same thing - just turn it upfront towards himself. G.R - who has a good voice - for the most part was singing with his head perched to his right and upwards and moved well away from the Mic. , occasionally drifting in front the mike and back to sideways & up. I guess he was attempting something beyond what you wanted - music "up and down" the air . The ceiling was vanavaLAviya - high vaulted one!

All of them demanded their settings on feedback monitor. But I suppose at the end they all knew they didn't have the best audio config. for the day. They confirmed as much to people at the end of the concert - I checked the next day.

In this case, more than if the Mic. picked up his emitted voice or not, first off the direction of the Mic. is not optimal as half of cardiod sphere ( falling now in the house side of the zone) was in the direct line of sight( or sound) of the feedback speakers. Their efforts to set their volume correctly on their channel would be challenging here. Given that he is moving too much, two Mic.s one perched higher would have helped or simply if the Mic. faced the artiste it will pickup most of his sound. That was not the case. The balancing comes to naught with all other artistes having correct directional pickup for their instruments except the vocalist.

Now to the really

mic to catch the sound "off the air"

part. The Ghatam (Chandrasekara Sarma) had a pickup Mic. Now if just only one person, among four gets a pickup privilege that is bad enough. On top of it, the ping pong ball hitting the table sound from within was picked up and had no tone whatsoever. It is not the sound emitted and ringing with Sruti that was picked up. It was the Kumba vAsa ( varuNa) sound instead of kumba sambhava ( Agasthya) sound. It was an inside the "pot" experience for me

I checked with the front desk and one person in the know said this is the trend with Ghatam players now-a-days !

All texting with the sound man was of no avail and I was told the SM58 should pickup for "Shure" , if only the artiste sang into it! In other words he should not move! The sound man also had a ruse - that any change in settings will also impact the monitors, he said , using it as a threat , that he dare not be asked to change anything.

[SrinathK]

If I were a lawmaker, I'd take every one of these modern mics and have them banned. The singer has to sing straight into them and if he so much as moves an inch this way or that it's lost.

And then this high db culture.

[Nick H]

If I were a lawmaker, I'd take every one of these mics and have them banned.The singer has to sing so everyone in the hall can hear them

...There, as they say on the internet: fixed that for you So many rants, so many moans, even a few helpful suggestions, have been spewed onto the internet by audience members who want to hear a concert, not the failure of the artist and the sound crew to be able to do their jobs.

Obviously, the sound crew absolutely should be qualified persons with actual, real experience of microphones and the myriad of knobs on those panels, as well as a clear idea of what the music should sound like to the audience and to the musicians. "Obviously?" Ha ha... obviously not.

But the responsibility lies with the musicians too. How, I cry, with genuine pain, can they spend a whole life, even rising to stardom, without recognising that, second to their voice, it is the first and foremost tool of their trade? Well, I've asked before, and I expect I'll die asking.

At a recent IIT concerts, a couple of boys who looked hardly old enough to be students there were royally
and completely messing up. Well wishers were offering suggestions. I had my own ideas, but felt that I knew just enough to know to keep quiet! In the end, the ghatam player left the dais and went over to the sound board. He knew what he was doing and all was fixed in a very few minutes. There's two lessons here. First, don't give the sound board to unqualified people, and second, recognise that it is a difficult job which takes real skills and experience.

At a concert series last year, the sound men were sincerely trying, but just did not have the experience to match the peculiar acoustics of the hall. They more or less gave up. The audience didn't, and, instead of the usual silent suffering, they revolted.

I heard from a another rasika, the next day, that the sound people had been very upset. Boo Hoo. Good, It's time we upset a few more sound men. The guy who thought it wrong: I wonder how willing he is to pay staff that can't do their job?

It was tough in that hall. But there was a micing/levels formula that made it work. I was happy to congratulate the sound guys afterwards. But... If nobody had complained...

And then this high db culture

Elderly audience. Many going deaf, including me. Sound guys are dedicated to making sure we loose our hearing even faster.

[shankarank]

Obviously, the sound crew absolutely should be qualified persons with actual, real experience of microphones

A CM configuration of Mic.s mostly requires only rudimentary knowledge - beyond just knowing the sound system controls and functions. If a large 700 seater auditorium is sparsely occupied, requires a slight improvisation. Most of the issues are with monitor speakers and directions and if things go out of hand, best is to shut off the violin side of the monitor and use one center monitor. Instead of onstage monitor too close to artistes, a single monitor perched up on a center chair/seat in the front row or just in front of it will allow more volume increase.

This is all required to reduce the sharp / treble on most of the Mic's except some sharp enhancement for right (or left for some) side of the Mridangam.

There is no role for a sharp sound in Carnatic music!

How is that the same fully filled auditorium for Sanjay and Sudha sounds way better than with the same sparsely filled one for less popular artistes?

[Nick H]

A CM configuration of Mic.s mostly requires only rudimentary knowledge

That is what we see in action. And plainly, it is not enough.

Curiously, I have seen full-time engineers (which is what I'm sure they must be to even have jobs there) at venues like London's South Bank auditoriums screw up Indian music, either monitor or front of house... or both! So maybe there is more to CM/HM engineering than meets the eye!

[thenpaanan]

Case Study: Sri G. Ravikiran (TMK's student) just completed the Dallas recital last weekend. I did not venture to post a concert list as I had to leave the recital when Main piece was being sung due to personal emergencies. I guess I can still comment on the sound issues. The Mic. was positioned vertical facing almost upwards. I was trying to gesture the same thing - just turn it upfront towards himself. G.R - who has a good voice - for the most part was singing with his head perched to his right and upwards and moved well away from the Mic. , occasionally drifting in front the mike and back to sideways & up. I guess he was attempting something beyond what you wanted - music "up and down" the air . The ceiling was vanavaLAviya - high vaulted one!

All of them demanded their settings on feedback monitor. But I suppose at the end they all knew they didn't have the best audio config. for the day. They confirmed as much to people at the end of the concert - I checked the next day.

...

I got a dose of this from the other end just this weekend. I was drafted to put tambura for a local concert being the tambura "paitthiyam" that I am. I watched as the vocalist and violinist tried to set an equitable share of the db-age. The vocalist is the type who likes the mic within an inch of his mouth. And he likes to hear his sound. Now here is the kicker. He had complete control over the mixer panel which was right in front of him. But I guess he had no idea what it sounded like in the hall. No one said anything and I was behind the singer so I, much like Nick, kept my mouth shut. The vio wanted more sound so the overall gain was increased rather than just the violin alone. When no music is happening nothing was noticed. Once the action heated up in the varnam the feedback boom started and was driving me nuts. But the vocalist did not seem to hear it (or if he did, it did not seem to matter). Only when the feedback got so loud that the music was getting drowned out did the volume get adjusted. Eventually they settled down to something but (i) no one asked the audience if they were able to hear a balanced sound (perhaps they would not have been able to give a good answer anyway) and (ii) after the boom any sound that does not have feedback seems acceptable.

The tambura was not mic'ed. Thankfully.

This is not to make fun of the artists but rather to lament the pathetic state of knowledge that exists. How many Intel engineers does it take to figure this out? In this case we could not even blame it on an inexpert sound man. But rather I think the flaw is in our weird sense of aesthetics. We like it loud, distortingly loud. From my perch it felt like the proximity effect (thanks to Nick for introducing me to this term) was clipping out all the upper harmonics of the singer's marvelous voice (he has a playback singer quality voice). And to top it all this is entirely self-inflicted. The setting was someone's home and there was no constraint except for the natural acoustic limitations of a home. And four mic's were used, including two for the mridangam, in a space small enough that even if no mic was used it would have been quite audible (no doubt with a different balance). Here the problem was not the mic. It seems our idea of what is desirable sound itself needs to be fixed.

-T

[SrinathK]

4 mics, in a home? Loud enough to cause feedback?

[Nick H]

That is the absurd state of affairs, among listeners and musicians.

There's no answer, until people have the sense to start complaining, and complaining loud!

[thenpaanan]

To me whether a piece of music is light or not depends only on the effort put in by the performer and the effort put in by the listener to appreciate the music. My friend Warren Senders once told me there is a difference between "pretty music" and "beautiful music" but the difference is hard to articulate. In my own opinion in extension to this, light music is when you can easily enjoy the music. Really serious music is when I have to hang on to every note and listen with all my effort to appreciate it. In this view then lightness of a piece depends very much on both the listener and performer and it may differ at the two ends of the same audio channel. There are no universal definitions -- a listener may have to struggle to appreciate a piece that a musician may have performed casually and conversely a musician may have put in his heart and soul into a piece but the listener may not appreciate the effort (but still like it) because the listener is at a different level of maturity (sometimes higher than the musician's). To me a musical piece or a performance is serious when I perceive that the musician has not taken the easy way out or taken shortcuts in the music. But these shortcuts can be a matter of perception. For example when I find an otherwise accomplished singer sing a "heavy" kriti mechanically and without involvement I take it as light music. Many "filler" or transitional pieces at a carnAtic concert would fall into this category -- but even lighter music has its place. It is sometimes hard to last out an ustAd amIr khAn concert because of its relentless intensity and hard to last out a (modern) paNDiT jasrAj concert because of boredom. I have felt that way about many Ariyakudi pieces only to learn that making a difficult piece sound easy can also be serious.

When we listen to children singing at an ArAdhanai, for example, most times we perceive the music as simple and listen easily without much effort. Then unexpectedly a child comes along and knocks your socks off and you start listening carefully for nuances that you did not pay attention to a moment before. That music went from being light to serious right there.

In my own estimation, I found Somu's to be very serious music most of the time -- even when he is crooning or belting out one of his popular songs I find myself having to listen very carefully because tucked in somewhere in the middle of an otherwise ordinary piece you could find a flash of brilliance but you dont know when it will happen. On the other hand I found santAnam's singing light because it was easy to listen to and without any complexity, expected or otherwise. But I am quite sure santAnam himself took his music very seriously and his fans consider his music serious. Not that it is necessarily easier to sing such music -- I was once requested by an otherwise appreciative uncle to sing mOhanam like santAnam did. I simply could not. It may not be intense as someone else's mohanam but it is definitely not easy to do yourself. It is important not to belittle "light" music.

By the same token many people dismiss film music as "light" and not worthy of keen listening. I have found many a song by Rafi or Kishore or Lata quite intense -- the way they negotiated tricky passages in the lyrics or the melody seemingly very casually or modulated the voice without cracking has to be appreciated for the effort put in and the talent. On the other hand I find many of Jagjit Singh's songs pretty but not serious.

Finally I find that with time my notion of light vs serious has undergone change. For example I used to find KVN's jagadOdhAraNA very intense but now when I listen to the same recording it sounds light. Clearly it is I who have changed, not the music.

-T

[shankarank]

For example I used to find KVN's jagadOdhAraNA very intense but now when I listen to the same recording it sounds light. Clearly it is I who have changed, not the music.

You have to listen in time dimension too!! You can listen to his 1975 Diskhitar MA concert on Sangeethapriya - especially Angarakam!

When a great music is created in melodic dimension, but not enlivened in time dimension - it is like vaccum - created and destroyed immediately!

[shankarank]

In this regard, I would enjoin you to listen to Sri Tadepalli Lokanatha Sarma's AIR National broadcast with Smt. Naramadha and Trivandrum Vaidyanathan! In Sangeethapriya!

Especially inta saukya in kApi!! There may be a teaching method or two in there - without much sangatifying! The kARvai method of teaching the song - just the AAS without worrying about phrasal nuances - well I may be mistaken - he might have indulged in there too - but on the surface it doesn't look like it! See how he contorts the position of the syllables - you cannot even figure out taLa positions. Trivandrum Vaidyanathan has some tough time there initially.

I thought of posting it for a ling time ever since you spoke about full voice vs. melodic nuances ( about a student being appreciated for the latter).

[thenpaanan]

You have to listen in time dimension too!! You can listen to his 1975 Diskhitar MA concert on Sangeethapriya - especially Angarakam!

When a great music is created in melodic dimension, but not enlivened in time dimension - it is like vaccum - created and destroyed immediately!

Indeed. My general feeling is that with greats like KVN and Nedunuri the sound and the approach can vary significantly over time. Both mellowed considerably with age and there was always a delightful question to consider -- will the music be full of effort (presumably in the 70s both these artists were vying to make their mark) and you can enjoy their full application of their hearts and minds, or will the music be full of grace and maturity where the artists now apply their great insights of experience and eschew the obvious to bring out the subtle? But both are wonderful and necessary for us to appreciate the core of the art.

-T

[sureshvv]

@bala747:

Re. Post #74.

Please use <quote> and </quote> properly so we know what you are quoting and what your personal opinion is (Use square brackets instead of the angle brackets).

[thenpaanan]

You have to listen in time dimension too!! You can listen to his 1975 Diskhitar MA concert on Sangeethapriya - especially Angarakam!

Finally I think this old tubelight is flickering with understanding of your "time dimension".

If I undersand correctly, you mean the "vishrAntI" in singing that is usually missing in concert singing. I once asked B Rajam Iyer this question -- he had just sung a breathtaking jambUpatE at his home in Amherst at a level of quietude that I had never heard before. I was compelled to blurt out that I'd never heard this song or any song sung like that at a concert. He smiled and said even he would not sing like this in a concert. He said something to the effect of (I have to translate from a very slang Tamil) the typical background noise in sabhAs is so high that quiet singing is simply not appreciated. He seemed to suggest that the violin and mridangam are necessary to drown out the street noises, audience talking, etc. otherwise he said it is hard to concentrate. "Namba summA irundA, avA sattamdAn varum" (if we keep quiet, their, ie audience's, noise only will be heard).

I guess this is not the case in elite places like MA or chamber concerts. Even KVN's concerts tended to have more vishrAnti in the US than in India in my analysis. Perhaps ambient noise is a major cause. And furthermore why Carnatic music sounds so different in home practice sessions than on the stage.

-T

[shankarank]

He seemed to suggest that the violin and mridangam are necessary to drown out the street noises, audience talking, etc.

What? Now you made them like mangaLa vadyam in marriages (so amangaLa vacanams are drowned out!). They have also to look for survival in temples/marriages now?

BR has a voice delivery issue to match the gait of percussion may be! But no, I did not mean quietitude and some slow and serene music.

One ways of the ways it manifests : an acute awareness of intervals even if you deviate!

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkVntoS_nFk - he does not have it. You can see at the edges of endings. UKS muscles through. There is no sign of interaction - not the body language or eye contact - but even before that his musical flow needs to interact!.

And look here: https://youtu.be/HUCo9Mwotas?t=235 - an abrupt stop to the flow and you can see traces of trouble before and after this. It only takes one pre-YACM era Mridangist to bring this out.

Sometimes the hidden weaknesses of gurus who overcame through intense sAdhakam - will be visible in their Sishyas .

He has a problem too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD_NVrV61zk - Sanjay was somewhat strong in his earlier days. Sandeep wanted to absorb all the melody and has done it.

After hearing Sandeep in the young competition winner slot, the Grundig tape collector who attended his Tuesday performance in Cleveland ( working day for me) , came back raving that here is the next TNS!. I don't think even he will try to say that now!!

In spite of that Sandeep would have fared better with a regimented composition like kalambam Bhajare as against a kARvai filled EtA vunnAra!

More examples: Unnikrishnan has the issue. But not Sowmya. Both float their syllables well beyond their composed limits. This is in spite of the fact that Sowmya sings ( or intends to sing) without sharp angles! So this has to be seen beyond some Male bastion thing.

Here they are singing with their vertebrae: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgnFuoEzGQ8 - just another pre-YACM era Mridangist! There were all the videos of other GNB songs with electrifying violin returns from that year missing now!

I think GNB's music did not reflect it due to the speed. But inspite of strong tALam and rhythmic technicalities, such awareness is missing in MLV's music.

Vijay Siva does not even tread there - the issue there is more emission of kARvai. He is another Mridangist with strong kAla paramANam. So it is not even a maintenance of speed issue.

And there are others imperfect in tALA aspect itself - cannot even be considered here.

viSrAnti is built , some basic ways into compositions themselves - so even a break neck nenaruncinAnu will express it. It will be felt in the way the musician wades through syncopation for example.

And this aspect was taken for granted across most musicians in the Golden era - as I repeatedly hear great concerts in the Auto Chamber! Not anymore!

[sankark]

He seemed to suggest that the violin and mridangam are necessary to drown out the street noises, audience talking, etc.

What? Now you made them like mangaLa vadyam in marriages (so amangaLa vacanams are drowned out!). They have also to look for survival in temples/marriages now?

BR has a voice delivery issue to match the gait of percussion may be! But no, I did not mean quietitude and some slow and serene music.

One ways of the ways it manifests : an acute awareness of intervals even if you deviate!

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkVntoS_nFk - he does not have it. You can see at the edges of endings. UKS muscles through. There is no sign of interaction - not the body language or eye contact - but even before that his musical flow needs to interact!.

And look here: https://youtu.be/HUCo9Mwotas?t=235 - an abrupt stop to the flow and you can see traces of trouble before and after this. It only takes one pre-YACM era Mridangist to bring this out.

Sometimes the hidden weaknesses of gurus who overcame through intense sAdhakam - will be visible in their Sishyas .

He has a problem too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD_NVrV61zk - Sanjay was somewhat strong in his earlier days. Sandeep wanted to absorb all the melody and has done it.

After hearing Sandeep in the young competition winner slot, the Grundig tape collector who attended his Tuesday performance in Cleveland ( working day for me) , came back raving that here is the next TNS!. I don't think even he will try to say that now!!

In spite of that Sandeep would have fared better with a regimented composition like kalambam Bhajare as against a kARvai filled EtA vunnAra!

More examples: Unnikrishnan has the issue. But not Sowmya. Both float their syllables well beyond their composed limits. This is in spite of the fact that Sowmya sings ( or intends to sing) without sharp angles! So this has to be seen beyond some Male bastion thing.

Here they are singing with their vertebrae: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgnFuoEzGQ8 - just another pre-YACM era Mridangist! There were all the videos of other GNB songs with electrifying violin returns from that year missing now!

I think GNB's music did not reflect it due to the speed. But inspite of strong tALam and rhythmic technicalities, such awareness is missing in MLV's music.

Vijay Siva does not even tread there - the issue there is more emission of kARvai. He is another Mridangist with strong kAla paramANam. So it is not even a maintenance of speed issue.

And there are others imperfect in tALA aspect itself - cannot even be considered here.

viSrAnti is built , some basic ways into compositions themselves - so even a break neck nenaruncinAnu will express it. It will be felt in the way the musician wades through syncopation for example.

And this aspect was taken for granted across most musicians in the Golden era - as I repeatedly hear great concerts in the Auto Chamber! Not anymore!

Whew. Flew so much above my head, it might as well not exist for me. Though very interesting to read to figure it out - hope to get there sometime soon, in this lifetime. Someone needs to write a kArikA or tIpIkA or bhAshyam on this visrAnti for shankaranks visrAntisUtrams.

[sureshvv]

Yep. The Grand Unification Theory!

[shankarank]

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkVntoS_nFk - he does not have it.

Behind that came this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGvPP41JZKE . For the pitAmaha, as much he said he will not get into laya viSayangal, as regards the awareness itself, it is sahavasa dosham for him! His entire being aware of it and watch the interaction!

Then came this!

https://youtu.be/LCqZN8p4kFg?t=232 - Somebody whom we never heard much! Yeah in the Kerala thread!

Then I remembered a name. Visalakshi Nithyanand on an unrelated issue - on open throated singing. Nothing to do with Trivandrum R.S Mani - I didn't know. googled her! Bingo!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk25BF0teNs - Yeah a junior Mridangist - tAlam also missed at one point. But before you get to sound production - watch the comfort on syllables and Akarams in relation to the tALa flow.

And now:

And furthermore why Carnatic music sounds so different in home practice sessions than on the stage.

After hearing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKMxARASLlI

Will you even attempt hear any other version. Is that to do with home? The AAS itself is different! See how she comes back to starting the line with sItA going over the beat!

Does she sound like the style of somebody?
Yeah hear this and decide for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QK6aDfYj8s

Vishalakshi was singing in Narada Gana Sabha mini hall in 2002 - morning! Have we heard her after that?

On the same day probably in the NGS main hall , afternoon Madurai Sundar put me to sleep making this a main in slow pace. After NOT doing svarams for mIna locanE - tODi of HMB! I ran into Gauri Ramnarayan after the concert, and said it was too sedate and he should not have sung kalayANa rAmA as main. She responded by asking - well how did he sing the hamsanAdam rAgam?

You see that's what ails Carnatic music! This rAgA auditing by reviewers without sufficient attention to everything else!

The listeners meanwhile on the other hand are flocking to disco!

[Narayanan NB]

I always does not intensely map to a raga devatha

I completely disagree. I listened to an RTP of his in Rishabhapriya - and it was where Rishabhapriya came off as a distinct ragam, instead of a combination of kalyani and shanmukhapriya.

I cannot imagine Rishabapriya as a distinct ragam. Can you quote specific phrases or handling of certain swarams which gave it a distinct identity of Rishabapriya?

[shankarank]

But inspite of strong tALam and rhythmic technicalities, such awareness is missing in MLV's music.

The awareness is restored and shines in her murganin maru peyar azaghu and bArO krishnayya. Just the regimented pATantaram renditions of Carnatic is where it is missing!

To respond to TMK's gripe about "sampradAya", it is not about how many rAga lakshanams have been changed , the issue for listeners at large is here!!

The Mylapore snobbery has labelled it even dramatization!!

[shankarank]

I always does not intensely map to a raga devatha

I completely disagree. I listened to an RTP of his in Rishabhapriya - and it was where Rishabhapriya came off as a distinct ragam, instead of a combination of kalyani and shanmukhapriya.

I cannot imagine Rishabapriya as a distinct ragam. Can you quote specific phrases or handling of certain swarams which gave it a distinct identity of Rishabapriya?

While the upper tetrachord can only be Shanmugapriya - the lower terachord even if sung in kalyAni will not be stamp kalyANi - so it has to be arrived at by some - elimination nEti vicAram - well it can still be latAngi!

[shankarank]

To appreciate this, we should acknowledge the fact that music is creatable in Time dimension ( which our bones acknowledge) - but our intellect is subverted! And we just have to accept what we experience in time is also music and not entertainment.

Just listen to S Kalyanaraman, MC and Palghat Raghu - gana naya dESika - even if you all did - once more and many times more!!

[sureshvv]

I cannot imagine Rishabapriya as a distinct ragam. Can you quote specific phrases or handling of certain swarams which gave it a distinct identity of Rishabapriya?

Not all ragas are phrase based. Melas have to do be enjoyed as a whole with all swaras contributing in unison to the raga bhava,

[sankark]

I cannot imagine Rishabapriya as a distinct ragam. Can you quote specific phrases or handling of certain swarams which gave it a distinct identity of Rishabapriya?

Not all ragas are phrase based. Melas have to do be enjoyed as a whole with all swaras contributing in unison to the raga bhava,

And there lies the core issue I think - what distinct bhava do these have without showing the bhava of the nearby major ones? For those that can look at phrases as sequence of swaras and identify, perhaps, there is some unique bhava.

[sureshvv]

Bhava is present even in a single note. The right antara gandharam or chathusruthi dhaivatam can cause goosebumps.

And phrases are nothing but a sequence of swaras (with gamakas). Nothing more!

[shankarank]

And what all produce svaras? Keyboard does? Piano does? I seriously need to check the TNS concert again! Yes that was convincing academically - like they say clinically cured for patients!

Oboe ? The last one is a hot one to get scholarships @ ivy leagues. With UNESCO tag if Oboe-ists can do a Obasvaram that might add teeth to their App-ing!

[sankark]

Bhava is present even in a single note. The right antara gandharam or shatsruthi dhaivatam can cause goosebumps.

errr, right. But we are talking about the rAga bhAvam, not swara bhAvam?

Ultimately, the absence of swaram and rAgam also has a bhAvam. Silence that can have its own infinite bhAvams the human mind can conjure

[varsha]

After hearing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKMxARASLlI

wonderful !!
thanks

[sureshvv]

Looks like we are arguing in circles. Are you in the group that says Rishabhapriya has no raga bhavam? That only certain combination of swaras have Raga bhavam?

I dont feel this is correct. If you able to identify the raga, that is proof enough that it has the required bhavam. How much an artiste can squeeze out of it is up to their creativity & the audience's patience.

[shankarank]

After hearing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKMxARASLlI

wonderful !!
thanks

He said something to the effect of (I have to translate from a very slang Tamil) the typical background noise in sabhAs is so high that quiet singing is simply not appreciated.

....And furthermore why Carnatic music sounds so different in home practice sessions than on the stage.

A acoustically poor Auditorium , with a non line-in recording - that might capture some of it's flaws compared to home:

https://youtu.be/a6E_ngecM1I?t=1645

The Mridangist is run of the mill concert grade ( like Builder's grade home ware they say in the U.S) , dead wood! If you listen to the earlier home recording referred to at the top of the post, you will see that the faster paced version of the AAS flows in 3s somewhat.

Somebody like Arun Prakash will take cognizance - but his hand has a mind of it's own. Why did god not give him a stronger "nam"? Should he switch to "kappi" Mridangam ?

The playing should tumble down in 3s for the most part , and keep a 3-ish gait by compensating nicely for a 4 based tALam.

the pUrvangam of pallavi tries to express a symmetry which is much more palpable ( irrespective of the syllable widths) - like a 6, 6 including kArvai.

kal.yA . . Na (6) like takadhimi (2nd speed) , takhadhimi (slow 1st speed) , rA..mA . . . takadhimi (2nd speed) , takhadhimi (slow 1st speed) !

If this artiste is singing this season, would like to see Arun accompany her and be webcast with exactly this song. And would like to hear somewhere in between dead wood and the mind of his own! As even the dead wood of the tradition provides some values here and there!

[sankark]

Looks like we are arguing in circles. Are you in the group that says Rishabhapriya has no raga bhavam? That only certain combination of swaras have Raga bhavam?

I dont feel this is correct. If you able to identify the raga, that is proof enough that it has the required bhavam. How much an artiste can squeeze out of it is up to their creativity & the audience's patience.

Unique.

[Narayanan NB]

Looks like we are arguing in circles. Are you in the group that says Rishabhapriya has no raga bhavam? That only certain combination of swaras have Raga bhavam?

I dont feel this is correct. If you able to identify the raga, that is proof enough that it has the required bhavam. How much an artiste can squeeze out of it is up to their creativity & the audience's patience.

Unique.

Ragams like Rishabapriya are identifiable atleast to me only by their arohanam and avarohanam. Even though ragam like Charukeshi or Keeravani are lakshana ragams i can associate lot of Bhavam with these. When it comes to a ragam like Rishabapriya or Neetimati I find them theoretical. That's why I wanted to know if I am missing some perspective in Rishabapriya.

[sureshvv]

They are theoretical only because they have not been put into practice enough. These ragas are sung as submain sometimes. The truly adventurous like G.Srikanth take them up for main. Now where is this guy? Hope I can hear him during this season.

[shankarank]

ragam like Rishabapriya or Neetimati I find them theoretical

There is a theorooetical explanation - that there is no vAdi - samvAdi pair between r-g and d-n in rishabhapriya and neetimati , save r-p in rishbhapriya and R2-P , M2-N3 in neetimati - which is not effective due to vivAdi!

[shankarank]

Whew. Flew so much above my head, it might as well not exist for me. Though very interesting to read to figure it out - hope to get there sometime soon, in this lifetime. Someone needs to write a kArikA or tIpIkA or bhAshyam on this visrAnti for shankaranks visrAntisUtrams.

Guess what! I will give you a retaliation or compliment however you take it. You are hereby ordained to attend all concerts of Car Driver Jay and his student Deep and report into the reviews section this season - chase them wherever they are !

You will qualify for a Prize in the next Rasikas meet : svAmi tuptupananda Screw Driver Giri award!

[sureshvv]

shankarank... You are hanging out here too long. You better go out and water the plants or something. You have started channeling all the rasikas personalities

[sankark]

Whew. Flew so much above my head, it might as well not exist for me. Though very interesting to read to figure it out - hope to get there sometime soon, in this lifetime. Someone needs to write a kArikA or tIpIkA or bhAshyam on this visrAnti for shankaranks visrAntisUtrams.

Guess what! I will give you a retaliation or compliment however you take it. You are hereby ordained to attend all concerts of Car Driver Jay and his student Deep and report into the reviews section this season - chase them wherever they are !

You will qualify for a Prize in the next Rasikas meet : svAmi tuptupananda Screw Driver Giri award!

is that to understand visrAnti, or are you punishing me ? And that too not only with original but the clone too? Original - perhaps one. Clone - thanks, but no thanks (original irukka clone kavarndhaRRu). Grew out of that music a while ago and am not missing it.

[sankark]

They are theoretical only because they have not been put into practice enough. These ragas are sung as submain sometimes.

Could happen.

submain - at that too many are drab affairs.

Or it requires a particular ability from the listener that I don't have.

[shankarank]

shankarank... You are hanging out here too long. You better go out and water the plants or something. You have started channeling all the rasikas personalities

You all's humor mill is regaling me so much - I could not avoid - especially when my personality faces some challenges. Thanks for the advice.

[shankarank]

They are theoretical only because they have not been put into practice enough. These ragas are sung as submain sometimes.

Could happen.

submain - at that too many are drab affairs.

Or it requires a particular ability from the listener that I don't have.

With Laya rasanai and laya conscious sangeetham , even a 4 note rAga will sound effective! If you heard that hamsanadam (ok 5 notes I know!) kriti that I posted, hamsanadam has only that much to sing. Rest is virtuosity!

Hamsanadam replaced the No 3 pantuvaraLi and pUrvikalyaNi for a prati-madyama interlude and went to a main spot now. enna koDumai! What travesty?

Artiste needs discrimination and dilgence to know which rAgAs to stretch in slow pace, which ones to sing with tight rhythm. eda izhukknam, eda geTTiya pADaNumunnu oru vivastai vENum. ella ragattaiyum Brinda Mukta stylla izhutta vElai seyyAtu!

The only further logical conclusion that a 4 note rAgA can be taken to is to sing a line of pallavi with 3 notes, once, and then leave it percussionists to do the rest - if only there is rasanai

[sankark]

Ok is hamsanadam a 5 swaram (certainly not note ) or 6 swaram ragam?

http://www.karnatik.com/c1459.shtml the ArOhana avarOhanam given there has a dhaivatam which is missing in the video you have posted.

[shankarank]

D3 is used sparingly - so I did not count it. Most of the svara prastarams won't have it. Arahonam / Avarohanam should not have it by general practice

Else d3 for dvamsanAdam!