Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?

[RSR]

As this thread is about the way in which Carnatic vocalists render Sanskrit kruthis, I may be permitted to give links to a few more kruthis.
1) This is by N.C.Vasanthakokilam (1920-1951) .singing Vinayaka ...(vegavahini(chakravaham)) .Dhikshithar kruthi.. unearthed by varsha_ji and just yesterday placed in site for NCV. as this is very rare. It was an upload by Raju Asokan and thanks to guruguha vaibavam site of Sr.V.Govindan, we have the lyrics and meaning too here.
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... egavaahini
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2) This upload by Srinivasan.V of an M.S.S. concert song of Saketha Nagara Natha in Harikambodhi. The year was around 1965. https://youtu.be/razC37HQzvM.....Mysore Sadashiva Rao...
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... ara-naatha for a brief note on Mysore Sadasiva Rao.
3) Here is GNB rendering the same kruthi. https://youtu.be/dsL_VVmJs_c
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[Rsachi]

जय जानकीकान्त जय साधुजनविनुत
जयतु महिमानन्त जय भाग्यवन्त । जय जय ॥ प.॥

दशरथात्मज वीर दशकण्ठसंहार पशुपतीश्वरमित्र पावन चरित्र
कुसुमबाणस्वरूप कुशलकीर्तिकलाप असमसाहसशिक्ष अंबुजदळाक्ष ॥ १॥

सामगानविलोल साधुजनपरिपाल कामितार्थप्रदात कीर्तिसञ्जात
सोमसूर्यप्रकाश सकललोकाधीश श्रीमहारघुवीर सिन्धुगंभीर ॥ २॥

सकलशास्त्रविचार शरणजनमंदार विकसितांबुजवदन विश्वमयसदन
सुकृतमोक्षाधीश साकेतपुरवास भकुतवत्सल राम पुरन्दरविठल ॥ ३॥

[rshankar]

Singing compositions in sanskRt (or in any language other than tamizh) 'properly' involves more than mere enunciation of the words - it involves distinguishing between not just ka and ga sounds for example, but also clearly and persistently differentiating between ka and kha, ga and gha and so on and so forth as well.

There are very few musicians who do this consistently (with each and every sangati for example) IMO - Smt. MSS was definitely one whose enunciation was great. Sri KVN and Sri MDR were superb (if fact, you can distinguish श [S] from ष [sh] from their pronunciation). Of the present day musicians, Smt. Gayathri Girish is one who pays attention to the words, their pronunciation, and splitting (padacchEdam).

Pronouncing अतिथि (atithi) as अतिति (atiti) clearly is just that - clearly wrong....as is भ्रह्म (bhrahma) instead of ब्रह्म (brahma).....

So, if tamizh speakers carry over the lack of distinction of the mahAprANa (e.g., ba versus bha) into sansKrt, native-hindi speakers have their own quirks, which I think are not correct either.....e.g., most hindi speakers pronounce words like कमल (kamala) as कमल् (kamal) - which is probably why all of them, without exception, mangle the word भरतनाट्यम्/பரதனாட்யம் (bharatanATyam) - so that it sounds like the dance of Sakuntala's son (भरत् नाट्यम् [bharat nATyam]) OR worse, the (only) dance of India (भारत् नाट्यम् [bhArat nATyam]).

[Lakshman]

I have a question for the samskrt scholars at the rasikas website. The name of the great avadhi poet is spelled by the northerners as tulsidAs and spelled as tuLasidAs by the southerners. Which version is correct? Thanks.

[kvchellappa]

It may have nothing to do with Samskrtam. Tulsidas may be the closest to the way his name is in Hindi, presumably his mother tongue. North Indians use 't' for 'tha'. In early Samskrtam and perhaps even in current Hindi there is no ள. A person's name is what his parents intended it to be and how he want it to be. Is it Muthuswamy or Mudduswamy? Any amount of reasearch is of no use except into how he called himself.

[arasi]

Lakshman,
It's like bharatnATyam, isn't it?

Ravi,
You are so right. The problem is prevalent in every state of India. The good news is: students nowadays can look up lyrics on the web. If they are diligent, they will know many good ones, and when there are different versions of the same word, they can go by what a few of them agree on, AND look up the meaning. How many sAhitya bhaNDArs there are which are true to the text! For example, Govindan's tyAgarAja vaibhavam. Of course, the teachers are the very first sources to learn from (if they got it right from their gurus!).

[Lakshman]

kvchellppa: I totally agree with what you are saying. I only wish that when Karnatak musicians sing Tulsidas' song they say tulasidAs rather than tuLasidAs.

[rshankar]

I have a question for the samskrt scholars at the rasikas website. The name of the great avadhi poet is spelled by the northerners as tulsidAs and spelled as tuLasidAs by the southerners. Which version is correct? Thanks.

Lakshmanji - when written in HIndi, his name is spelled as तुलसिदास, but pronounced as if it is तुल्सिदास्. In the south it is pronounced as if it is तुळसिदास्....

It may have nothing to do with Samskrtam. Tulsidas may be the closest to the way his name is in Hindi, presumably his mother tongue. North Indians use 't' for 'tha'.

I disagree - In Hindi, there is ta (त), tha (थ), T (ट) and Tha (ठ).....

[rshankar]

भकुतवत्सल राम पुरन्दरविठल ॥ ३॥

भकुत (bhakuta) can't be in samskRtam...it should be भक्त (bhakta), right? This is like lakumikara (लकुमिकर) versus lakshmIkara (लक्ष्मीकर), IMO....

[kvchellappa]

I am aware of तवर्ग and टवर्ग. What I mentioned was about transliteration. In the north they use t for त and tha for ठ; in the south they use t for ट and tha for त.

[Rsachi]

Yes, Ravi, bhakuta is for bhakta and the reason perhaps he used bhakuta was 1.he was a Kannadiga and bhakuti, mukuti etc. are tadbhavas and accepted.2 More likely it was needed to get an extra maatra in.. For taala.

The glaring example of a similar transformation is magugaLa for makkaLa in jagadoddharana.

I also feel it should be tulasidaas and not tulsidaas. In Hindi they truncate intermediate syllables. Like sumiran becomes simran.

[kvchellappa]

The changed forms, whatever be the trigger for change, become new norm and are considered standard. (I believe so with ragas also). In Tamizh, such changed words are called மருஊ சொற்கள். In Hindi, it is the established practice to truncate alternate consonants and we must respect their practice. In Tamizh also, names like Ilakkuvan are in use. I have qualms though about changing proper names unless the person concerned prefers it that way. There is no way to cross-check with Lakshmana!

[RSR]

@77-> Sri.Sachi_R-> Thank you very much for the devanagari for jaya-jaya kruthi. 1) When we give the lyrics, we can give it as rendered by the singer. and not from any book. We should also split the words to make them easy to follow. (ex) जय जानकी--कान्त जय साधु-जन-विनुत. and so on. In all the languages( including thamizh, the so called thaaLakramam koottaksharam is what makes it very difficult to follow. ( of course, after understanding the words , the reader will appreciate the rhyme better. I do not know Kannada but I find the few Purandhara dasa kruthis absolutely lovely and lyrical in their simplicity. Here and there , we may find a few words new but for anyone with sanskrit orientation, with just a little bit of help, we can easily enjoy and be thrilled.by the poetic rhyming The only thing required is some familiarity with the sentiments, traditions and usages in Bakthi movement. Poetry ( with its focus on rhyme) is meant for natives. I cannot make any non-thamizh reader really appreciate a song like 'vadavaraiyai matthaakki' by MS ...when she sings 'vanduzhaay maalaiyaay, mayamo marutkaitthe'. ( the inflection she gives in vanduzhaay !). But, I believe that all the other languages in India are just regional variants of Sanskrit and that it is why we must use Sanskrit transcription and translation . . About 'tulasidas', Why not write it as it should have been, 'thuLasi dhaasa'? ... Changing a nice name as Rama as Iraaman' and Lakshmanan as Ilakkuvan, Lakshmi as Ilakkumi is just a horror. like Rishi into Irudi! Recent writers and journalists use much more civilized method. They try to go to the root of the sanskrit word and the coin a thamizh word which has the same meaning. For example, Thiru MakaL for Goddess Lakshmi. Not all character names in our revered ithihasams can adopt that method. Nor is it necessary. maNipravaaLam is so sweet. Try transliteration / translation of dhyaana slokam https://sites.google.com/site/dhyanaslokam/home/slokams
( anonymous!). What lovely rhyming without conscious attempt! Even without being set to music, just plain recitation itself is musical. That is Sanskrit! It is futile to study Kamba Ramayanam in transliterated English! If we really want to read Kamban or even Barathy, we MUST learn Thamizh. . Sanskrit is the only alternative left for Tamils to learn the carnatic kruthis by PurandharaDasa and the trinity. We are talking of music only.

[sankark]

There is a village in Karnataka where there are native Samskrut speakers.

Mr. Sachi might be able to supply more details

Did you mean Mattur https://www.thebetterindia.com/65046/sa ... karnataka/ https://www.karnataka.com/shimoga/mattu ... -of-india/

Even there Sanskrit seems a second/learnt language, in addition to their Sankethi/Tamil/Kannada native tongue.

[Rsachi]

Yes.
From my limited exposure to Samskrita, I feel it is a wonderful language to write poetry and convey great imagery. It will not supplant any local language. Most often the drive to learn and preserve Samskrita comes from a devoted pursuit of our spiritual literature and ancient works like Kalidasa's.
Mattur ( I haven't been there) seems like. A quaint experiment. I think Samskrita Bharati is a much more solid intitative (just google it).

[thanjavooran]

Shri satchi,
Well said. It is a live language. Contains more authority for modern science.
With wishes,
Thanjavooran
22 10 2017

[kvchellappa]

RSachi,
Is it not Samskritam? (I prefer Samskrtham).

[Rsachi]

Samskṛtam


The English way of writing it as Sanskrit was debated and changed to Samskrita.

[RSR]

@93-> not Samskrutham? vs Praakrutham? .. I have given about 10 links to sanskrit kruthis sung by famous vocalists of Thamizhnadu. May I know if there are any phonetic defects in the rendering? (Not likely! , ..yet!)
HM does not rely much on lyrics. I am curious to know if there are indeed any sanskrit lyrics for their songs sung by their illustrious vocalists.
While on this topic, I happened to read a monograph ( by Shodhganga) on Muthuswamy Dikshithar. ( it was in pdf). To enable highlighting some points, I got it converted into plain word format and have placed it in
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... hikshithar

Lovers of Sanskrit kruthis, Dikshithar and his works will find the page very interresting and informative.
It will be nice to get links to Dikshithar kruthis in Telugu and manuipravaaLam. Also some sanskrit kruthis by Shyama Sasthri and Swathi ThirulnaaL

[kvchellappa]

It is certainly not 'u' or 'i', some indeterminate or in-between sound. Sruti and smrti. many pronounce smrti also as smruti, which is wrong. It is krti, not kruti. I believe even 'r' is not to be pronounced (RSachi said once he would send an audio if possible). It is not prakrutam, but prakrtam.

[RSR]

@95-> my understanding..( may be wrong)( from thamizh percetion) . 'krutham' ('seyyappatta').க்ருதம் 'samskrutham' ( chemmaip padutthappatta', nanku seyyappatta ',), praakrutham ('natural', iyalbaana') , 'prakruthi ப்ரக்ருதி ( nature'), smruthi ( kutriyalukaram' (short) as in 'eruthu' எருது tamil, rules laid down for living as by sages as in manusmruthi ( hence smaartha brahmins --people who follow such rules, in contrast to sruthi ஸ்ருதி (pronounced as in 'put', and hence sroutham ,srouthikal, ( people well versed in upanishads more concerned with the precepts than with rituals ) In music, sruthi suddham ஸ்ருதி ஸுத்தம் ( adherence to pitch. ). .. mruthyu ( first short, next normal) amrutham ( short ).. How sruthi is written in sanskri ? it is normal 'u' as in kutram குற்றம்.. Is it meant to be pronounced as in 'kriyaa' ( as in 'pit') ? Hardly.

[RSR]

Adding one more sanskrit kruthi ( Dhikshithar) by D.K.Pattammal (solo)
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... etaroopini

[RSR]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Aruti

Shruti or Shruthi (Sanskrit: श्रुति; IAST: Śruti; IPA/Sanskrit: [ʃrut̪i]) in Sanskrit means "that which is heard" and refers to the body of most authoritative, ancient religious texts comprising the central canon of Hinduism.[1] It includes the four Vedas including its four types of embedded texts - the Samhitas, the Brahmanas, the Aranyakas and the early Upanishads.[2]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smriti
Smriti (Sanskrit: स्मृति, IAST: Smṛti), literally "that which is remembered" are a body of Hindu texts usually attributed to an author, traditionally written down but constantly revised, in contrast to Śrutis (the Vedic literature) considered authorless, that were transmitted verbally across the generations and fixed.[1] Smriti is a derivative secondary work and is considered less authoritative than Sruti in Hinduism, except in Mimamsa school of Hindu philosophy.[2][3]

[Sachi_R]

@kvchellappa Sir,
This set of videos may be helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAbHLSL ... WPEqmvoaN4

[thenpaanan]

Uday,
अहङ्कार should be pronounced like (not exactly but nearest to) ahangkaara.
This is my understanding. Note the way it is written in Samskrita. Different from Hindi अहंकार

True. अहङ्कार is a better spelling and pronunciation.

I gave the example primarily to point out the Arabicization of the vowel sounds. A better example may be

अहम् - Must be pronounced as A-HA-M, whereas most Hindi speakers would pronounce it as E-HE-M.

This reminds me -- in Srirangam the Lord is referred to very often as rengA rather than ranga as it is pronounced elsewhere. I have seen many a gentleman spelling his name 'renganAthan" with an e rather than a. Anyone know why this is so?

Of course in Kerala we find 'renjith' and 'rema' which are also Snskrit-derived.

-T